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40kdhs
15-12-2006, 18:49
If a ship which carries a smart missile fails *GK shrouding* test, can its smart missile still shoot at a GK unit.?

thanks

Culven
15-12-2006, 18:55
IIRC, Shrouding works like a Stealth Field, correct? In this case, I would assume that Smart Missles cannot be fired at Shrouded GK's if the test is failed. Think of it as the vehicle doesn't detect the unit.

Mr Zephy
15-12-2006, 19:16
Unless you mean a seeker missile which is completely different and would depent on whether the unit with a markerlight can see the Gks.

Jimbobjeff
15-12-2006, 19:37
I dont see why not....smart missiles dont need los do they?

Greatoliver
15-12-2006, 19:56
I dont see why not....smart missiles dont need los do they?

Nope, they do not need LOS. Also, they're not efrfected by Night Fighting plus they can shoot at things that are further than 6" in Area Terrain, which really comes under LOS.:D

I would then say Shrouding does not effect them. Shrouding blurs the marines out of view and this does not matter as they don't need LOS plus they (the missiles) are used to having to see partially obscured targets (such as those in the dark) and thus have a technique to counter that. Shortened: Shrouding is a special rule that combines LOS and Night Fighting, both of which the SMS is not affected by.

My opinion anyway.

40kdhs
15-12-2006, 19:57
I dont see why not....smart missiles dont need los do they?

that is the only arguement i have heard. Some people say this and some say that.

the whole thing is confusing..I hope GW will have a FAQ about this thing.

40kdhs
15-12-2006, 20:01
Unless you mean a seeker missile which is completely different and would depent on whether the unit with a markerlight can see the Gks.

if a marketlight unit sees me, does a seeker missile also see me.? yes.?

Khaine's Messenger
15-12-2006, 20:25
If a ship which carries a smart missile fails *GK shrouding* test, can its smart missile still shoot at a GK unit.?

I would say not, but only because Shrouding is not the Night Fight scenario special rule (which is specifically ignored by SMS); it doesn't deny line of sight, it just makes it impossible to hit them...as stated by the rule itself, stuff that normally gives benefit during Night Fight (eg, Searchlights) don't help. If you were fighting GK at night (where NF overrides Shrouding, as per the DH book), then no roll would be necessary. Which is all rather amusing...if smart missiles can hit them better in the dark than in broad daylight. On the other hand, the likelihood of failing the Shrouding roll (3d6x3) within the range of the smart missile system (24") seems unlikely to me.

tchjdaedn
15-12-2006, 21:14
K.M. is right, this came up in my last game. The GK shroud is not affected by things that affect NF rules. Smart missiles must make visibility tests (though they still don't need LOS), and any markerlight hits on a GK unit cannot be used to allow other Tau units to ignore the shroud. (which really sucks for Hammers and broadsides)

But if you are fighting at night, then you get to go to town on them!

neko
15-12-2006, 22:16
Each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them. Roll 3D6 and multiply the result by 3, giving a number between 9 and 54. This is the number of inches the Grey Knights can be spotted at, etc
Going by RaW, Shrouding works by blocking Line of Sight. The Smart Missile System ignores LoS, and as such will ignore Shrouding. The fact that SMS also ignores nightfight rules is irrelevant, as that's not the rule being used by SMS to ignore LoS.

Khaine's Messenger
15-12-2006, 22:43
I'd concede to that; the first line makes the case as far as I can see, since it defines that it's a test for LoS, which SMS ignore. So point taken.

Angelus Mortis
16-12-2006, 01:26
I'd concede to that; the first line makes the case as far as I can see, since it defines that it's a test for LoS, which SMS ignore. So point taken.Actually, if you go by the shrouding description, its a psychic power that disrupts the firers ability to target them. And by its description, if you are affected by it, then you cant target anything that turn(not just the squad you were aiming at, you simply lose your opportunity to fire that round) as you would basicly be psychicly blinded. So, somebody has to pull the trigger on that missile so...

But as was stated earlier, I play DH a lot, and rarely, ever does someone fail the shrouding roll.

Khaine's Messenger
16-12-2006, 02:41
Yes, that's the fluff. But the first sentence of the rule is, as stated, "Each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them." Which says, to me, that no matter how the effect is described in background terms, it mechanically operates on LoS, and SMS ignore line of sight.

Angelus Mortis
16-12-2006, 03:40
Yes, that's the fluff. But the first sentence of the rule is, as stated, "Each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them." Which says, to me, that no matter how the effect is described in background terms, it mechanically operates on LoS, and SMS ignore line of sight.
Actually, it makes no mention what so ever about LOS, regardless of how you read it. It also requires no line of sight to be used. It simply states that every time a unit attempts to fire at them it must roll the dice. If they fail, they cant fire at anything for the round. If they succeed, more power to them. A good rule of thumb is, if the reading makes sense as is, dont try to read anymore into it. But as said before, what do you think the odds of a roll or 9-54 coming up 24 or less? Pretty slim as I attested earlier. But regardless, there is no logical reason by the letter of the rules to think Smart Missiles would not be affected.

Khaine's Messenger
16-12-2006, 04:25
It simply states that every time a unit attempts to fire at them it must roll the dice.

Actually, it simply states that "Each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them." Which suggests to me that it is, mechanically, a line of sight issue. If those words were not there I would press my previous position.


But as said before, what do you think the odds of a roll or 9-54 coming up 24 or less?

Assuming that all outcomes are equally likely (which is not true), about a third of the time. Taking into account that you'll probably get a bulge in the high twenties and thirties thanks to the corresponding bulge in the 3d6 around 8+, it's much less likely. And I already acknowledge such rarity above, so you don't need to keep bringing it up; this statistical outcome doesn't change the way the rule is written.

spagunk
16-12-2006, 06:31
The way it figures in my head is if a unit cannot be "Seen" then it cannot targeted. LOS, although it sounds implied, doesnt affect the fact that GK's shrouding effectively makes the unit disappear through psychic ability. In other words, how would you justify saying "Im gonna target my smart missle indiscriminately in that direction over there cause i have a hunch"? But i digress as im not very versed in the TAU or the GK codices.

Angelus Mortis
16-12-2006, 22:11
Actually, it simply states that "Each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them." Which suggests to me that it is, mechanically, a line of sight issue. If those words were not there I would press my previous position. Well, regardless of what you think it suggests, its not what it says. And unfortunately, the rules are not played "as implied" but rather, "as read". LOS is not in the rule. The point of the rule is, every time you shoot at them, you must roll to see if you can fire at them.




Assuming that all outcomes are equally likely (which is not true), about a third of the time. Taking into account that you'll probably get a bulge in the high twenties and thirties thanks to the corresponding bulge in the 3d6 around 8+, it's much less likely. And I already acknowledge such rarity above, so you don't need to keep bringing it up; this statistical outcome doesn't change the way the rule is written.I've played Gray Knights extensively since they came out, and I can assure you that I have only had someone fail their shroud roll about half a dozen times out of several hundred games played. Keep in mind that regardless of what army you are playing, the range closes every round, as the Daemonhunters are an assault army. So they will be closing the range regardless of what the other side does. What does this mean? It means a smaller and smaller window to fail your roll every round, which is pretty slim even at max range. Given that terrain is usually in the middle, you wont be firing until they are less than 30" or so away, and will be in melee in the next turn or turn after max. This means mathematicaly and by my experience, very few opportunites to fail your roll. So, as I stated before your really making a moot point as it should rarely come up and if it does, let the GK player have his dues, its successful so rarely that the guy is probably very excited that it worked. Is it really that big a deal?