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Wildoxmoan
15-12-2006, 20:38
Is it me or does it seem like there's a lot of fearless troops out there in 4th edition?

InquisitorMatticus
15-12-2006, 20:46
Yeah there are way too many fearless things in 40k right now. Whole chaos armies are, tyrannids are effectively fearless, and so are space marines. Others have some unit that is fearless or somthing that makes them basically so. The only 2 that dont have (any?) fearless units are the orks and imperial guard. I really think they could use some more sychology(sp?) rules, and give them something to affect.

Greatoliver
15-12-2006, 20:48
That's one of the problems people say 4th Ed. has got - Leadership is so hiw or unchangeable that Pinning weapons use Pinning as a nice extra, not as a main component. ie. Sniper Rifles are not used to pin enemies but to take out high Toughness models.

And yes, I would agree. There are quite a lot of Fearless troops but not too many. There are too many Fearless and high Leadership models out there. This makes the whole Psychological essence of 4th Ed. a bit redundant.

Perhaps in the 5th Ed., they'll do something with Psychological ideas to make it a bit better...Meh, whether they will it's up to them, but it would be nice. :rolleyes:

Angelus Mortis
15-12-2006, 20:54
Psychology has been pretty much pointless since second edition. Take Chaos for example. You can either take a mark making your squad fearless or take one that allows a re-roll of your 10 leadership. My reasoning was that since they fell from grace they should of lost the mental toughness that made Space Marines so bad. Granted, some Chaos stuff should be fearless, but not everything.

pantera
15-12-2006, 20:56
Not only are there too many fearless units, but there are way too many units and armies where the overall leadership is way too high. Not only do marines have "know no fear", but a leadership of 8 as well. Not that 8 is ridiculously high, but the amount of morale tests my buddy fails compared to how many he passes is way too low. All aspect warriors are Ld9, etc, etc. Unless used en mass and with several units, pinning weapons really dont have the psychological effect that they should. Whether youre a marine, or a guardsmen, if Joe beside you just got a sniper bullet through the head, youre gonna drop to the ground if you dont know where it came from.

It seems to me the only drastic modifiers are in CC, when a unit is outnumbered. I know GW wanted to get away from modifiers, but I think its the only way around these situations really.

Count de Monet
15-12-2006, 20:58
Yeah, the armies that use regular morale as writ in the BBB is pretty slim. Maybe Eldar/DE, with some exceptions like Avatar radius, some Tau, ironically Necrons.

Marines - ATSKNF, chappies can make unit fearless, commander can bump up whole army's Ld

CSM - fearless or rerolls

Orks - mob checks/mob up

IG - command radius, voxes, doctrines

Tau - bonding, ethereals (though I've seen few use them)

Angelus Mortis
15-12-2006, 20:59
It seems to me the only drastic modifiers are in CC, when a unit is outnumbered. I know GW wanted to get away from modifiers, but I think its the only way around these situations really.Well, I think the original intent was to streamline the CC system. So you're spending more time playing and not calculating 8 different modifiers to someone leadership. Personally, if they want it streamlined then they need to compensate in another manner, so as to make some leadership affects noticable. The only real case where I have seen serious effects of Leadership is Space Marine Librarians using Fear of the Dark. Slap a Jump Pack on him, drop him in the middle of several IG or Firewarrior squads and it can creat some serious problems for them. But unfortunately, this is about the only case where I've seen it have a serious effect.

The Song of Spears
15-12-2006, 21:00
That's right! I think pinning weapons should work like "Entanglement" so that they actually function against more than Tau and IG!

hiveminion
15-12-2006, 21:20
Exactly. After all, sheltering from heavy fire is not cowardice, it is common sense. Fearless troops are not brainless troops, they would drop to the ground too.

Wildoxmoan
15-12-2006, 21:27
Maybe I'm just sensitive because I play three armies all rife with 'common sense', I.G., Tau and Necrons! ;)

hiveminion
15-12-2006, 21:30
Well I absolutely agree with you, even though I'm a 'Fearless' player: 'Nids and MEQ. I think it's a shame that psychology doesn't play such a big part in 40k warfare as it does in reality. I makes for some very interesting (if not complicated) tactics.

John Vaughan
15-12-2006, 23:18
There are disadvantages that are not being noted though. The Nids HAVE to be within synapes to even function. Otherwise, they would have to roll a Ld5 Instinctive Behavior roll every turn to just move! In the case of the orks, they can be separated so that they cannot mob up, and with their puny Ld, they most commonly fall back. As for SM, them being fearless disallows any kind of strategy that includes falling back. They never can! Plus, with pinning, it just allows them to get in range of other Rapid Fire weapons. (fools!)

Reflex
15-12-2006, 23:34
i iwsh psycology was as a bigger part in this game as it is in fantasy... in fantasy, if one unit falls back, its likly another one or 2 might as well... so it becomes more strategic that way, in 40k, there is to much of this "war of attrition" going on.. and its quite disapointing when you think about it, but it wont stop me playing, it just makes fantasy more appealing...

10th clancannach rangers
15-12-2006, 23:41
Maybe units which arn't pinned should take extra casualties as they have failed to get out of danger

Kromando33
16-12-2006, 01:22
I really hope next edition really reinstates morale though, when I have played against my friends who play SM and Necron I rarely if ever see them fail morale or get pinned, even more for my chaos. I really think morale is an interesting variable and rule in 40k, I hope it lasts.

Reflex
16-12-2006, 02:21
the only armies i ever see fall back are: Imperial Guard, Orks, Dark Eldar, Eldar and thats it.. hmmmm interesting hey...

Greatoliver
16-12-2006, 02:25
What about Tau?

Nehcrum
16-12-2006, 03:01
What about Tau?
Tau doesn't fall back.....they fall off the board...

Onisuzume
16-12-2006, 07:48
Tau doesn't fall back.....they fall off the board...
Kinda reminds me when my Flyrant killed an enemy Ethereal in cc, my opponent just gave up then. (he still had more or less his entire army)
So I don't think that many people field Ethereals.
As for 'nids, they can fall back more often then most other armies.
Space Marines can also fall back, though rarely. (ATSKNF isn't the same as fearless)

Reflex
16-12-2006, 08:28
What about Tau?

never seen them fall back because the only games i have played against them have been where i have either wiped out the whole squad by shooting it, or sweeping over it in combat... but i dont get to play them much...

how many units in the game are fearless?

Angelus Mortis
16-12-2006, 11:00
never seen them fall back because the only games i have played against them have been where i have either wiped out the whole squad by shooting it, or sweeping over it in combat... but i dont get to play them much...

how many units in the game are fearless?
I think the question should be "fearless or its equivilent". Anything with a leadership 9+ with a re-roll might as well be called fearless IMHO. ATSKNF may as well be fearless too. Not really sure, but I can say its prevailent enough so that about 80% of the lists can make psychology a moot point.

Corax
16-12-2006, 11:34
The fearlessness is IMO an extension of the MEQ problem. There are too many MEQ armies out there and their Ld and associated abilities are too effective. One of the things that makes Fantasy more interesting than 40k is that, barring a few exceptions, just about every unit in the game CAN be broken, either through casualties, or flank/rear charges and resolution.

Because 40k's system has been streamlined (or nerfed, depending on your preference), Ld is almost irrelevant for the most popular armies in the game. It's no coincidence that MEQs and Eldar are so popular, as they are least likely to hoof it in the middle of a game. This is a shame because, breaking the enemy's will to fight should be one of the key element of achieving strategic victory.

Personally, I would love to see the whole Ld/psychology part of 40k redone so that there is a better balance between the 'Fearless' armies and the rest.

BTW: Witch Hunters aren't inherently fearless, either.

Rlyehable
16-12-2006, 11:51
I agree. I would like to see the following changes:

1. Fearless becomes Leadership 12 for morale and pinning tests. Period. Still have to make checks, but will always pass unless there is a modifier.
=OR=
1a. Shooting at a Fearless unit is always at 2+ as they are not dodging the incoming fire. They may NOT make cover saves. And they are hit on 3+ in close combat as they are not fearful of the attacks against them.

2. Combined effect. Save all pinning and morale tests from shooting to the end of the phase. For each pinning and morale test they will have to make add +1 to the dice roll. I.e. if a unit has to make a test due to loosing 25% and has 2 pinning tests, tests would be +3 to each of the die rolls.
=OR=
2a. Save all pinning and morale tests from shooting to the end of the phase. Count the number of hits (not wounds) against a unit. If this exceeds the number of models (not wounds) left in the unit, morale and pinning tests are at +1 to the dice roll. If the number of shots is double but less than triple, test at +2; etc. upto a maximum of +4.

Angelus Mortis
16-12-2006, 15:29
1. Fearless becomes Leadership 12 for morale and pinning tests. Period. Still have to make checks, but will always pass unless there is a modifier.
I have to disagree. This would mean they are not fearless then. Kind of pointless calling them fearless if they aren't. ;)


1a. Shooting at a Fearless unit is always at 2+ as they are not dodging the incoming fire. They may NOT make cover saves. And they are hit on 3+ in close combat as they are not fearful of the attacks against them.Again I have to disagree. Fearless does not equal stupid. Just because they wont crack under pressure does not mean they will try and stop bullets with their face.


2. Combined effect. Save all pinning and morale tests from shooting to the end of the phase. For each pinning and morale test they will have to make add +1 to the dice roll. I.e. if a unit has to make a test due to loosing 25% and has 2 pinning tests, tests would be +3 to each of the die rolls. Now this is definitely and interesting idea. Not bad at all actually. You could even modify it to be how many units shot at them that round to represent recieving a tremendous amount of fire. Units that get 100 models shooting at them will definitely be more shakey than ones who got shot at by 10 models, regardless of casualties. Defintiely some promise along these lines and I think would warrant for an excellent house rule.


2a. Save all pinning and morale tests from shooting to the end of the phase. Count the number of hits (not wounds) against a unit. If this exceeds the number of models (not wounds) left in the unit, morale and pinning tests are at +1 to the dice roll. If the number of shots is double but less than triple, test at +2; etc. upto a maximum of +4.This one just doesn't get quite get the effect across IMHO. Just not enough. The one just above though is pretty decent.

redbaron998
16-12-2006, 15:35
The only things that really have any business being fearless are...

Grey Knights
Deathwing
BT in CC
Khrone
Nid MCs
13th company
and Ork Warbosses should be to

hiveminion
16-12-2006, 15:55
I've seen MEQ fail a Ld test quite often, but that was in CC, and they were outnumbered at least 2:1 (btw I have also seen MEQ fall back after having been fired upon, even seen them failing Ld 10 target priority tests, but those were my own Space Marines...)

I would like to say that, although too much Fearlessness is a bad thing, too little is too. If failing Ld tests becomes more of a habit than just bad luck or uneven odds, the game would become very boring, with units fleeing the board left, right and centre. A new edition should strike a balance between the two, by dropping Fearless on troops that 'shouldn't' have it and changing the effects of things like Pinning.

glowing in the dark
16-12-2006, 16:18
I also have the problem.As my main leader is chaplain, i don't get rites of battle bonus, and so all of my tac squads are Ld 8, and they tend to run quite often.

I don't mind that, as it makes the games more interesting.
Although i've never failed a pinning test with them.Curious...

The_Outsider
16-12-2006, 17:17
13th company

Its a joke that wulfen aren't.