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MastroBurattinaio
16-12-2006, 16:33
This week more of the others, we are reading of the beautifulst armies, to come nearly abandons.
Time makes ago I have participated to a spectacular torneo (2 years), full of various armies.
Just with these political they will destroy all that.

But the problem of the decrease of the sales of determines you armies does not think that he is imputable to their same job?

If I am a lover of bmw (in our case hunters of demons or who for they) and the house manufacturer does not produce more pieces than reciprocation (in our case codex and/or miniature), is not normal that I will abandon their product?
Task that theirs manager we have one narrow vision.

Against example it is Warmachine where they make contest in order to invent new things for every army, and to always put them in argument. To make of petitions or to write mine/our disappointment on the forum who makes ďtendencyĒ could be a small beginning.

Excused for my English bad one but I am translate pure of haste. I ask also excuse if opening this argument smashed some rules.


P.S. But where they are the players of orki Á_Á?

Maus
16-12-2006, 16:43
Did you use an automatic translator? It's a little difficult to understand what you are saying but it sounds like

"If armies aren't selling well GW will reduce production, but if we petition them with ideas for the armies we love they might make more for us" -- does that sound right?

Unfortunately I think GW of late is somewhat aloof and distanced from the fans, and appear to just want to concentrate on the armies they know will sell well. I'm not sure how much of a difference such a petition would make.

MastroBurattinaio
16-12-2006, 16:54
Yes i have used automatic .....google :S
i know a lot of ork player, selle their army because GW has been forgotten about they, like for the DE. So i must player versus always meme army.

SpaceMarine
Chaos
Eldar

:(

Sojourner
16-12-2006, 16:57
There's a lot more ork stuff due soon. There are a lot of new vehicle bits in the works.

Cirenivel
16-12-2006, 17:06
Yes i have used automatic .....google :S
i know a lot of ork player, selle their army because GW has been forgotten about they, like for the DE. So i must player versus always meme army.

SpaceMarine
Chaos
Eldar

:(

please write yourself, it's really hard to understand

Cirenivel

Chaos and Evil
16-12-2006, 17:08
He means that he always has to fight Marine armies because GW doesn't support any other army properly.

suplicor
16-12-2006, 19:06
"GW dosen't care about veteran players",that is exactly what a GW employee told me.All they seem to care about in new,younger players.The Red Shirts were told to concentrate on the new players,because older,veteran players allready had complete armies and they won't spend as much money on the game.They need to realise the veterans got them where they are today.

Forbiddenknowledge
16-12-2006, 19:53
Without us, they are nothing! Nothing I tell you!

Yeah, it sucks, but they won't listen to the fans anymore.

Maxis Lithium
16-12-2006, 20:15
In some ways I admire the GW business model. In other ways, I dispise it.

At least here in Canada, they do all they can to support the veteran players, as it is the veteran players that bring in new people.

The cooperate suits seem to think that veteran playersdon't buy new models for some reason. This, as far as i can tell, is just not true. I have been playing for 10 years, and I still buy figured every *********** month. I droped over 300 in GW in November, and have droped over 150 in GW this month alone.

My problem is that GW dosent give vet players enough reason to buy new stuff. If the models haven't changed in 10 years (like orks) and the rules haven't changed in the same time frame, then there's no reason for older players to puck anything new up.

Inquisition is a parasite list as is, so I'm not supprised that they arn't getting a new list any time soon.

After they re-do chaos, and the Imp Guard, they will have a frame work to re-work the Inquisition as a whole.

Helicon_One
17-12-2006, 00:26
The Red Shirts were told to concentrate on the new players,because older,veteran players allready had complete armies and they won't spend as much money on the game.They need to realise the veterans got them where they are today.
Its the new gamers that get them to where they'll be tomorrow, though.

Why do GW "need" to cater for Veteran players any more than they do already? By definition the Vets already know what they're doing, they're perfectly capable of running their own clubs and campaign weekends, they don't need a Redshirt standing over them and holding their hand through each game. GW has been actively encouraging established gamers to act more independently of their local store so that the redshirts can concentrate on the new players who are in more need of the assistance, and that's something I have no real objection to. I can still go into my local GW, get a game in if there's an opponent around, flick through the staff copy of the latest WD (after all, its not as though I'm ever likely to buy it) or a soon-to-be released codex they have on display, goof around with the staff or argue over particular weapon configurations and unit types when they're not too busy, sit and do some painting or modelling if I want... so where's the problem?

Tim

HalfEvil333
17-12-2006, 01:47
My biggest problem with GW current policy mindset is its backwards of what a niche market needs to do in order to survive. From what current and past employees of my LGWS have told me, they focus pretty much on only the new players (mostly kids) that come in, think its cool and buy the starter and maybe a character model. Problem with that is most of those are one time customers. They will never be seen again (and this is from experience). As opposed to my friends and I. I've spent thousands at that store building my armies. And I would continue if it wasn't for the fact that the current policies and staff treat me like sh@t. I know I'm a extreme case, but I was even kicked out of the store. :eek:

I probably deserved it, seeing as all I was doing was talking to a friend of mine who was home on school break, and not buying anything or playing a game. Its just not a friendly attitude though.

Hellebore
17-12-2006, 02:26
That's bizarre. I'm friends with the local staff, hang out and play games with them, and spend friday nights at GW at the painting table joking around and painting/sculpting.

I get mistaken for staff the amount of time I spend in there :eyebrows:

But they would never treat me like that. Sure not that many veterans (depending on your definition of veteran) come in on fridays, but I enjoy just acting stupid and making up dumb jokes with the staff and the other customers.

I might buy 1 thing there every couple of months, (spending most of my GW cash on stuff from Military Simulations cuz it's cheaper) so they have no real incentive to have me around.

Those staffers sound like jackasses.

Hellebore

HalfEvil333
17-12-2006, 02:40
Our store used to be like that, but lately we've had major staff changes. We've had 5 or 6 managers over the last 2-3 years. Our last manager and staff were nice and I became real good friends with them, but the manager left for a better job and our current manager is a d!#k. Most of the previous staff has either been laid off over stupid sh@t or left for better jobs too. I've yet to actually meet the new staff, but the manager is too much to put up with. Luckily, rumor is he leaves in 2 months, so I just have to wait it out.

I appologize in advance for the language if it offends anyone.

Helicon_One
17-12-2006, 15:47
My biggest problem with GW current policy mindset is its backwards of what a niche market needs to do in order to survive.
GW doesn't want their product to be in a niche market though, they want to expand into mainstream acceptability. Why do you think there's been a sudden rush to get their IP exposed in other media (Bloodquest movie, Fire Warrior, Dawn of War, Warhammer Online) in recent years? GW already own a massive segment of the niche 'wargaming' market, they're trying to push into larger territiory now (with mixed success, it must be said). Would you prefer that they instead took on the likes of Privateer Press and Mongoose and attacked their already small(ish) slice of the pie?


From what current and past employees of my LGWS have told me, they focus pretty much on only the new players (mostly kids) that come in, think its cool and buy the starter and maybe a character model. Problem with that is most of those are one time customers.
Well, yeah. You're a Vet, you already know how to build a Space Marine or fight a a close combat, and you already know what models you want for your army. Little Johnny who just got a Battle of Macragge set for his birthday is the one who needs the attention from the redshirts, because when he walks into the store there's this huge overwhelming range of STUFF he's just not familar with, and he needs somebody to show him which dice to roll when and why he cant field a Zombie Dragon in his Ultramarine army.


I know I'm a extreme case, but I was even kicked out of the store. :eek:

I probably deserved it, seeing as all I was doing was talking to a friend of mine who was home on school break, and not buying anything or playing a game. Its just not a friendly attitude though.
Sounds like you've just got some dumbasses working in your local store, that's not really representative of most GW staffers I've known, and I doubt its because of any official policy handed down from GWHQ.

Tim

ShadowKitana
17-12-2006, 16:02
Every time I see threads like this I am glad that GW cherry hill exists. Great staff that has fun with you, great enviroment (and great food court but that is more of a bonus).

As for GW not giving you a reason to buy new stuff, just exactly how much of the Eldar line was replaced? And you got two new units with it as well. Also, I do not see many new players interested in campaigns as well. And, if th rumors are true, Apocolapse is not ecaxtly something for new players to get into.

Zzarchov
17-12-2006, 16:11
Independant stores which sell GW products tend to focus on veterans.

Veterans players tend to spend more money (how many long term players do you know that has only one army? and if he does, I bet you its over 3 or 4 thousand points.)

Games workshop is in a funny place where they are only half full of business people, and those that are in the top are only there because they have marginally more business skill than their coworkers (who are hobbyists and game designers, artists, etc).

This makes it make many poor business decisions.

Anubis_the_Harlie
17-12-2006, 20:26
My local GW went through a bit of a roughish patch in terms of staff a few months ago but now they have a nealy new team and they are great, seriously.

They help the beginners and the kids and we mess with them too (like the incident where a termagant killed a dread on a roll of 4+... let's just say he had had a long, long day...)

As for GW not supporting the less popular armies, thats going to happen unfortunatly, they are after all a buisness in search of short term profits and by focusing in on already popular armies they are going to get more cash from the kids.

Us Vets just have to deal with it really, GW be back to the way it used to be some time in the future, apocolypse anyone?...

100th post by me!

HalfEvil333
18-12-2006, 00:16
GW doesn't want their product to be in a niche market though, they want to expand into mainstream acceptability. Why do you think there's been a sudden rush to get their IP exposed in other media (Bloodquest movie, Fire Warrior, Dawn of War, Warhammer Online) in recent years? GW already own a massive segment of the niche 'wargaming' market, they're trying to push into larger territiory now (with mixed success, it must be said).

As hard as they may try, the fact is they ARE a niche market. There just isn't enough appeal to push it. I love the cross-media, but for every one person who played DoW and decided to take up the hobby; I've met dozens who looked into it and wanted nothing to do with it.

What GW is using is a business plan that works for other companies, but not their's. The closest thing I could think of is another hobby of mine: Video Games.

Core rulebooks, Army books, army deals = Consoles and accessories
Additional models and units = Software

A loose comparison at best, but works...kinda... The difference between why video games can follow that policy but GW can't is because video games have a much, MUCH greater appeal. Video games can appeal to people from RPG addicts, to athletes reliving their shattered dreams of going pro, to casual people who need something to kill time while waiting for a plane to come in or an email to arrive. GW has a deverse appeal of aspects, but no where close to video games.


Would you prefer that they instead took on the likes of Privateer Press and Mongoose and attacked their already small(ish) slice of the pie?

Except wargaming is not an agressive market. Even if the have the best quality, people have different tastes, so the may drive off people if they ignore one part of the hobby, like the rules or price of consumption. Personal opinion plays a larger role in this industry than others.


Sounds like you've just got some dumbasses working in your local store, that's not really representative of most GW staffers I've known, and I doubt its because of any official policy handed down from GWHQ.

Yeah, we really do have some dumbasses, I even heard we might lose our "Battle Bunker" status because of it. But some of it was policy. The rumor was one of the managers left because of the change in policy a few years back.

ShadowKitana
18-12-2006, 04:07
Yeah, we really do have some dumbasses, I even heard we might lose our "Battle Bunker" status because of it. But some of it was policy. The rumor was one of the managers left because of the change in policy a few years back.

What exactly does it take to get Battle Bunker Status? I mean your store was barely bigger than ours.

Flaxxon
18-12-2006, 04:20
"GW dosen't care about veteran players",that is exactly what a GW employee told me.All they seem to care about in new,younger players.The Red Shirts were told to concentrate on the new players,because older,veteran players allready had complete armies and they won't spend as much money on the game.They need to realise the veterans got them where they are today.

Never mind the fact that I don't know a single veteran player that builds one army and only plays that one army. Heck I've only been playing for 5 years and have 3 full ready to play army's and am working on 2 other armys. Maybe a third when they finally release the Ork codex. Not to mention the fact that we are the ones who will order Forge world product or additional sprues that are overpriced to make conversions.

Granted the closest GW store is in the Chicago area. I've alwas spent time at local indepented shops. I got to be friends with the one in Rochester, MN. It was always great to go in and spend some time just BS with the manager and other employees.

I quess I'll get my first idea of what a GW store is like at Adepticon this year. We're going to head to the bunker on Friday and take a look around. I have my eye on the Necron Pylon.

MrLiy
18-12-2006, 06:08
I've been venting my frustration out about GW stores in another thread, but this one I think has the point I was trying to make. I have more fun in Rogue trader stores. The atmosphere is more laid back, you can relax have fun with your friends and enjoy the community aspect of it. Coincidentally I spend more money in Rogue trader stores too...

At GW stores I either feel hounded, or feel like I am loitering. Coincidentally I hardly buy much there. To add to it I bought my first battleforce box at a GW thinking that it was everything I need it. The next day my local Rogue Trader shop owner looked at me, shaked his head and said "you know let me help you" I left that store with everything I needed to start an army. Including rulebooks, and have since probably spent thousands in there.

The guy at the GW store sold me a battleforce, the guy at the Rogue trader store sold me on the hobby for life. I have since moved on to college and have met many other wonderful Rogue Trader owners. (That last sentence sounded kinda weird). Yet every vacation I still visit the original shop where I learned to play and paint. Seeing some of the regulars is almost like seeing family, some move on, some stay the same, and some even grow up. "Wow look how tall you are now!"

Oh and one more thing, I kinda worry that GW might go the way of FASA if their video games become just as popular as Battletech. If I remmember right battletech started as a game, through its licensing it became more popular than the tabletop game in other forms, such as cartoons, video games, and action figures. Thus the suits figured that it was more important to invest in these mediums where profits were more likely. Then the fad died out and the game went with it since the suits didnt bother to keep the tabletop game going. Battletech was a victim of its own success. (I was fairly young but that was my impression of what happened.) In the same vein I remmember that alot of RPG players were very excited about pokemon being brought to America. I can remmember as a teen being very excited with other RPG players about this "revolutionary RPG". Me and a lot of high school friends were playing pokemon battles with each other weeks before the pokemon explosion began. The fad hit, it went mainstream, and most of us decided we didnt want to play a game associated with 1st graders. Sure Nintendo made millions in the period, but the franchise is pretty much dead. Same thing with the card game...the mechanics of the card game were actually very good and complex, if you could get over the fact that an 8 year old had that card you needed to make a great deck. After the pokemon fad died, so did the card game. Magic the gathering though never truly hit mainstream, even at its peak in the late 90's, it never managed to become a massavi multi-medium franchise. Ironically the game is still going strong today.

Long story short lets hope GW doesnt drive away the true fans who will forever spend a good percentage of their paycheck on the hobby in order to appeal to the mainstream who might like warhammer today, and leave the fad tommorow.

Flaxxon
18-12-2006, 06:28
FASA was running into a number of other problems that caused them to go under. One of witch was a legal case filled by the people of started and owned the rights to Robotech. That and some of there other game systems weren't doing that great.

On the plus side Battletech is currently being produced by another company.

MrLiy
18-12-2006, 06:32
Flaxxon you know what I think I remmember that. I can kinda remmember some Robotech figures being packaed as battletech models. Really though I dont think we want our hobby to become just another fad...

Brother Antonios
18-12-2006, 06:47
FASA was running into a number of other problems that caused them to go under. One of witch was a legal case filled by the people of started and owned the rights to Robotech. That and some of there other game systems weren't doing that great.

On the plus side Battletech is currently being produced by another company.

100% hogwash, in 1999 FASA interactive was sold (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1999/jan99/fasapr.mspx) to mircrosoft, in 2001 FASA did not go under, as a matter of fact it was doing very well financially (for it's market segment) when Mort and the boys decided to leave before the market left them.

Spotty
18-12-2006, 07:26
i think we vets are the most important of all gamers. its like (pardon me for the bad example) cultists who were stupid enought to get hooked the first time and so they keep with it because they dont know how stupid it is but they are valuable for their fanaticism and the revenue of other people and cash they bring in. Vets are kinda like that minus the stupid bit. we all think warhammer 40k or fantasy is awesome already, so the staff dont need to convince us, thus the lack of attention that comes our way. manytimes the inattention borders on insult in which we take offense. like the staffers who dont have any time for us vets.
that alone has made me stop going to the four gw stores in the vicinity and drive 40 mnutes to a store not owned by gw but has everything that they do simply because the owner and staff are awesome and let me and my friends hang out even if we have no stuff and dont buy anything.

The Winslow
18-12-2006, 14:55
From what current and past employees of my LGWS have told me, they focus pretty much on only the new players (mostly kids) that come in, think its cool and buy the starter and maybe a character model. Problem with that is most of those are one time customers. They will never be seen again (and this is from experience). .

Not true, unless the store is something of an idiot/savant that can somehow do the work to sell starters, then do nothing after. GW stores work pretty hard on getting kids back in after they buy the core set for painting, megabattles, and intro leagues.

I've done the same thing with my stores, and had great success. Minimum 75% of people buying a starter spend at least 300.00 in the next year. New players drive a ton of sales into the store.

That said, it's stupid to ignore veterans. They also provide sales and other benefits to a shop. You need a steady influx of new players who buy armies, who then in turn become your veterans a few years down the line.

The Winslow
18-12-2006, 14:59
100% hogwash, in 1999 FASA interactive was sold (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1999/jan99/fasapr.mspx) to mircrosoft, in 2001 FASA did not go under, as a matter of fact it was doing very well financially (for it's market segment) when Mort and the boys decided to leave before the market left them.

Well, lets change that to "Screw Zocci Distributing, Screw and Bankrupt Ral Partha, stick lots of people holding the bag, hide the company assets so Jordan can start Wizkids, and leave. "

Brother Antonios
18-12-2006, 15:09
Well, lets change that to "Screw Zocci Distributing, Screw and Bankrupt Ral Partha, stick lots of people holding the bag, hide the company assets so Jordan can start Wizkids, and leave. "

Sure I'll buy that. :evilgrin: Though I still don't see a clear connection with what FASA did and what GW is doing. Other than what every company tries to do, grow their market.

MrLiy
18-12-2006, 17:23
Growing the market is good, and maybe the FASA analogy was bad. Still though I get this sad feeling everytime I hear someone say that they dont want to bother even looking into the tabletop game, because they have the video game.

Helicon_One
18-12-2006, 19:36
As hard as they may try, the fact is they ARE a niche market. There just isn't enough appeal to push it.
In the UK, GW has high-street presence which helps alot - there's a Games Workshop store sited in the main central shopping area of virtually every large town or city, and many of the larger cities have 2 stores (heck, London has 5, without counting the independents).


I love the cross-media, but for every one person who played DoW and decided to take up the hobby; I've met dozens who looked into it and wanted nothing to do with it.
Sure, but GW are perfectly happy with that. Getting exposure in wider circles doesn't have to pull in large percentages to work - if 10 million Playstation 2 owners see a good review of Fire Warrior in a magazine or website and only 10% of them buy it, and then only 20% of those are interested enough to ever set foot in a GW store to check the range out further, that's still 100,000 new potential customers through the doors. Additionally, exposure in a (relatively) mainstream area like console gaming gives GW a form of credibility amongst the target market... if someone's first experience of 40K is through massive explosions and big stompy war machines on the screen in front of them, that's far more likely to grab their attention than walking past a store and seeing some plastic and pewter models in a display case.


What GW is using is a business plan that works for other companies, but not their's. The closest thing I could think of is another hobby of mine: Video Games.

Core rulebooks, Army books, army deals = Consoles and accessories
Additional models and units = Software
I'd say the core rulebook is the hardware, all the models and codex releases are the software, and the dice/paints/terrain/ are the accessories... but anyway. I find it a little premature to say the business plan dopesn't work for GWs position - I can't think of any precedent of a wargaming company outgrowing the wargamer market (at least in the UK, probably to a lesser extent in the USA) and chasing the mainstream entertainment market.

If you want a Video Game analogy, look at what Nintendo are doing with the Wii and DS - rather than competing directly with Sony and Microsoft for the hardcore console gamer market, they're chasing a whole new demographic of people who've never picked up a joypad in their lives. That's what GW have been trying to do for the last few years - there's no point chasing the hardcore wargamer's wallet around, because that player already knows the environment and has decided whether they want to play a GW game or historicals or a rival fantasy/sci-fi range (or some combination). What GW can try to do is expose their products to a far larger range of people who would otherwise never look twice at anything involving dice and 'toy soldiers'.


The difference between why video games can follow that policy but GW can't is because video games have a much, MUCH greater appeal. Video games can appeal to people from RPG addicts, to athletes reliving their shattered dreams of going pro, to casual people who need something to kill time while waiting for a plane to come in or an email to arrive. GW has a deverse appeal of aspects, but no where close to video games.
Perhaps, but the large majority of the console gamer market is the bored teenage-to-early-twenties male looking for something to keep him occupied, and that's certainly something that GW can chase a slice of.



Would you prefer that they instead took on the likes of Privateer Press and Mongoose and attacked their already small(ish) slice of the pie?Except wargaming is not an agressive market.
No business operating in a capitalist environment aims to stand still.


But some of it was policy. The rumor was one of the managers left because of the change in policy a few years back.
If its a well implemented policy, it shouldn't even be noticed. Even when I've stopped playing 40K for periods I've kept going back into the store to talk to the staff and look through the new books. However, having heard the same horror stories about GW USA as everyone else on Warseer, maybe a well implemented policy is too much to hope for...

Tim

HalfEvil333
19-12-2006, 03:27
One quick note on FASA and Battletech; I grew up playing the Mechwarrior games, but didn't know that it was originally a tabletop game until I started playing GW games. That just says something.


If you want a Video Game analogy, look at what Nintendo are doing with the Wii and DS - rather than competing directly with Sony and Microsoft for the hardcore console gamer market, they're chasing a whole new demographic of people who've never picked up a joypad in their lives. That's what GW have been trying to do for the last few years -

This is a horrible analogy. I mean no offense, but this really falls flat.

First, the DS doesn't belong there. It didn't rely on expanding the market, it relied on Nintendo's hold on the hand-held market. The gamble wasn't a change in policy, it was to use new technology. It already had a backing from the consumers that supported the Gameboy.

Second, yes, the Wii is using a very fimiliar policy to what GW has been using in the last few years. But the Wii has been out for a month. There is no way to physically tell how the new policy and ad campaigns are working, because there hasn't been enough time to see the impact. GW, however, has been using this policy for years, and its getting a lot of negative feedback and drops in sales.

I believe a better analogy following those lines would be the Gamecube and the PSP.

During the years that the Gamecube was released and supported, Nintendo followed a family-friendly policy that heavily supported the casual gamer. But in the end, the Gamecube fell behind the X-box and the PS2, because while Nintendo followed their policy, they ignored the mature and/or serious gamer. Many developers felt that Nintendo didn't have the draw on the biggest share of the market, the serious gamer. Thus most of the third-party games on the Gamecube were too simplistic and too under-developed to appeal to the serious and/or mature gamer. Thus they ended in third in the race.

The PSP analogy is shaking and shows more on the issue of overall quality. Sony knew that they weren't going to break Nintendo's hold on hand-helds, so they looked to bring non-gamers into the market by including features in the system that did more than game; movies, mp3's, the like. However, there was no strong titles to back the main function of the system, to game. In the end, it ended with a system that did everything it tried to do in a mediocre and/or expensive way, leaving other devices that did the samething more efficiently to take the market. This I can say with expirience. I have a PSP, but I own one game on it, since the other titles don't draw my interest. It can also play music and movies, but my iPod is easier to use and carry with me, and the UMD format is too expensive and inefficient to really warrent me putting money in to the movies. I would have to pay the same cost for a disk that only work on my PSP and none of my other DVD players.

I seem to be dragging on, but my point is this: Bringing new players into the fold is wonderful and so is expanding the market. But in the end, you are still supported by the serious gamer, and it is their view on your quality that determines their continued interest in your company. So driving them off is what leads to bankruptcy.

7DrunkenPirates
19-12-2006, 03:35
One quick note on FASA and Battletech; I grew up playing the Mechwarrior games, but didn't know that it was originally a tabletop game until I started playing GW games. That just says something.



This is a horrible analogy. I mean no offense, but this really falls flat.

First, the DS doesn't belong there. It didn't rely on expanding the market, it relied on Nintendo's hold on the hand-held market. The gamble wasn't a change in policy, it was to use new technology. It already had a backing from the consumers that supported the Gameboy.

Second, yes, the Wii is using a very fimiliar policy to what GW has been using in the last few years. But the Wii has been out for a month. There is no way to physically tell how the new policy and ad campaigns are working, because there hasn't been enough time to see the impact. GW, however, has been using this policy for years, and its getting a lot of negative feedback and drops in sales.

I believe a better analogy following those lines would be the Gamecube and the PSP.

During the years that the Gamecube was released and supported, Nintendo followed a family-friendly policy that heavily supported the casual gamer. But in the end, the Gamecube fell behind the X-box and the PS2, because while Nintendo followed their policy, they ignored the mature and/or serious gamer. Many developers felt that Nintendo didn't have the draw on the biggest share of the market, the serious gamer. Thus most of the third-party games on the Gamecube were too simplistic and too under-developed to appeal to the serious and/or mature gamer. Thus they ended in third in the race.

The PSP analogy is shaking and shows more on the issue of overall quality. Sony knew that they weren't going to break Nintendo's hold on hand-helds, so they looked to bring non-gamers into the market by including features in the system that did more than game; movies, mp3's, the like. However, there was no strong titles to back the main function of the system, to game. In the end, it ended with a system that did everything it tried to do in a mediocre and/or expensive way, leaving other devices that did the samething more efficiently to take the market. This I can say with expirience. I have a PSP, but I own one game on it, since the other titles don't draw my interest. It can also play music and movies, but my iPod is easier to use and carry with me, and the UMD format is too expensive and inefficient to really warrent me putting money in to the movies. I would have to pay the same cost for a disk that only work on my PSP and none of my other DVD players.

I seem to be dragging on, but my point is this: Bringing new players into the fold is wonderful and so is expanding the market. But in the end, you are still supported by the serious gamer, and it is their view on your quality that determines their continued interest in your company. So driving them off is what leads to bankruptcy.


Seconded....

Osbad
19-12-2006, 09:16
Bringing new players into the fold is wonderful and so is expanding the market. But in the end, you are still supported by the serious gamer, and it is their view on your quality that determines their continued interest in your company. So driving them off is what leads to bankruptcy.

Amen! Preach it brother!

Crazy Harborc
19-12-2006, 21:51
GW with it's stores is likely to be where new and younger wargamers are exposed to wargaming. Make that GW's versions of wargaming. Newbies and some veterans (of GW style of wargaming) aren't involved long enough to discover historical wargaming.

There are a few guys (that I know of;) ) my age still doing GW's systems of rules. None are just gaming using GW's rules and or minies.

Wargaming was and still is a hobby that can last a lifetime. Newbies (youner ones) are where GW tries to get the majority of it's profits year by year. GW needs to try to "keep" more numbers of their "vets".

Helicon_One
19-12-2006, 23:56
If you want a Video Game analogy, look at what Nintendo are doing with the Wii and DS - rather than competing directly with Sony and Microsoft for the hardcore console gamer market, they're chasing a whole new demographic of people who've never picked up a joypad in their lives. That's what GW have been trying to do for the last few years
This is a horrible analogy. I mean no offense, but this really falls flat.

First, the DS doesn't belong there. It didn't rely on expanding the market, it relied on Nintendo's hold on the hand-held market.
Brain Training? Nintendogs? Phoenix Wright? Animal Crossing? English Training? C'mon, these are not aimed at the traditional teenage boy market, and yet they're amongst the best selling "games" for the DS.

What Nintendo (and some other DS developers) have done is put out a quality portable with a mix of traditional console games to appeal to the dedicated gamers, and a whole range of programs to grab new people who otherwise wouldn't look twice at a games machine.


During the years that the Gamecube was released and supported, Nintendo followed a family-friendly policy that heavily supported the casual gamer. But in the end, the Gamecube fell behind the X-box and the PS2, because while Nintendo followed their policy, they ignored the mature and/or serious gamer.
Some might argue that Nintendo's failing with the Gamecube was focusing too much on their traditional market after Sony (in particular) had already pulled that rug out from under their feet long before.


Many developers felt that Nintendo didn't have the draw on the biggest share of the market, the serious gamer. Thus most of the third-party games on the Gamecube were too simplistic and too under-developed to appeal to the serious and/or mature gamer. Thus they ended in third in the race.
The Playstation brand has had the 'cool' factor in the dedicated gamer market ever since the PS1 showed up with Ridge Racer and Tekken, something which Nintendo in particular has lacked.


I seem to be dragging on, but my point is this: Bringing new players into the fold is wonderful and so is expanding the market. But in the end, you are still supported by the serious gamer, and it is their view on your quality that determines their continued interest in your company.
Bringing in new gamers from other demographics turns some of those new gamers into tomorrow's dedicated hardcore, though. We were all wide eyed GW newbies once, and something about the games turned us into dedicated gamers, even if 95% of the other kids who started when we did had given up after a year. I don't see such a direct conflict between supporting 'new gamers' and 'Vets', especially when the Vets are quite capable of looking after themselves and don't need GW to guide them through a game (and indeed, tend to get offended and patronised by what they see as overzealous staffers jumping on them when they walk into the store).

Tim

HalfEvil333
20-12-2006, 05:13
I wouldn't mind getting into a discussion over whether the success of non-traditional titles on the latest systems stems from the introduction of the new formats over older ones, or if it stems from the increase of media awareness, but I have seen topics less off-topic get locked, so we should steer this back home.

Its obvious that neither of us are going to convince the other, and both opinions have been posted, so let's leave it to the third parties to read and make up their minds. I'll leave with one last comment: It's easier to feed the addict, then to get someone addicted.

Helicon_One
20-12-2006, 21:11
I wouldn't mind getting into a discussion over whether the success of non-traditional titles on the latest systems stems from the introduction of the new formats over older ones, or if it stems from the increase of media awareness, but I have seen topics less off-topic get locked, so we should steer this back home.
Agreed, so I'll drag it back a bit and point to the LotR licence as the textbook example of GW doing what Nintendo are doing with the DS and Wii, using it as a gateway to pul in a wider 'non-wargamer' audience who'd had their interest raised by the films.

Tim

HalfEvil333
21-12-2006, 02:04
Agreed, so I'll drag it back a bit and point to the LotR licence as the textbook example of GW doing what Nintendo are doing with the DS and Wii, using it as a gateway to pul in a wider 'non-wargamer' audience who'd had their interest raised by the films.

I'll agree with you there. Although I personally don't like the system, I've noticed that it is a much easier sell than Fantasy and 40k.

Osbad
21-12-2006, 09:14
I'll drag it back a bit and point to the LotR licence as the textbook example of GW doing what Nintendo are doing with the DS and Wii, using it as a gateway to pul in a wider 'non-wargamer' audience who'd had their interest raised by the films.

I'll second that. That's my experience. I hadn't "gamed" in any way shape or form for over a decade when LotR grabbed my attention and I was hooked again.

Where GW dropped a b*llock though was they put little effort into integrating LotR with their corporate culture, so when it was first released it was viewed by staff and many of the "regulars" as their red-headed child, and some sort of cuckoo in the nest. There was a lot of resentment around from 40k players in particular who (rightly or wrongly) saw the new game as taking away resources from their own pastime. That wasn't stamped on enough by GW (and in many cases was actively encouraged by staff at a local level - LotR activities being cancelled to permit extra resources for the "Eye of Terror" campaign for instance).

Because of this, and also the fact that the aesthetics are entirely different, meant there has been little crossover between the new LotR crowd and the other core games. It has happened in some cases, but in many cases LotR and 40k/WFB players are entirely seperate sets of people.

I think GW thought they were onto an easy ride with LotR and that it would automatically with little effort from themselves feed into increased sales for 40k and WFB. Which it didn't!

The game is afoot
21-12-2006, 09:36
My local store staff would fall all over you if they could, i mean, if there was enough of them but as there is only one staff member in the store for most of the week it's a bit hard for him to cover you with attention. Staff cuts have stopped all that.
Besides, my local store is dead almost all the time since LotR died away and the prices kept going up.
People are not fools, they know when a product has increased in price and when it is overpriced.
My poor local store is suffering.
But the staff member is nice.

Bombot
21-12-2006, 10:39
I think GW thought they were onto an easy ride with LotR and that it would automatically with little effort from themselves feed into increased sales for 40k and WFB. Which it didn't!

LOTR is flawed is a bait to draw people into the main hobby. Itís not using GWís own background (obviously) and itís an extensive system in its own right. Thus players donít have a great deal of incentive to move on from it. Opinions on it vary wildly but Iíve heard enough people praise it more than the other two core systems, so, again, why move on from it?

Iím not saying GW were wrong to do it as they did, as grabbing the cash and running may have been the best they could do with the it, but if they didnít draw as many new players into playing the other two core games then thatís why.

Heroquest and Space Crusade are better examples of bait games. The number of GW gamers around my age who started with those two is enormous.

t-tauri
21-12-2006, 10:58
I've no particular hate for LotR but what killed it as an intro game was that the figures are a different scale. Even if you make the jump from LotR to Fantasy your LotR collection is useless to play Fantasy with as the figures are too small and on the wrong bases. It means starting from scratch. Heroquest, Space Hulk and the like at least gave you the right scale of minis so you could expand your collection.

It might have been a clause in the contract that the minis were a different scale and that they couldn't be mixed with warhammer but I think that was the big mistake in the LotR negotiations. Fantasy armies of LotR Orcs or Rohirrim would have been a great lead in. I can see why New Line and Tolkien Estate wouldn't allow it but for GW it really made the bubble very dependent on the films releases.

gjnoronh
21-12-2006, 11:27
T-tauri 40K and WFB figures are by and large not interchangeable (ignoring the possibility of using daemons on the wrong type of bases) but I bet almost all of us started with one of the systems and eventually started playing the other.

While some folks have used their necromunda/mordheim figures in other systems for most of us we played those games and bridged to other GW products (though both of those generally drew from established GW customers)

LoTR like 40K and WFB is it's own game the key is it gets folks used to playing with little toy men, they buy a magazine called White Dwarf and have a good section of it talking about cool things in a system they haven't tried yet, and they walk into GW (or independent retailer) stores that either sell the other 2 systems or sell a whole bunch of games - eventually being drawn over.

LoTR is a good system, but the draw of 40K/Fantasy where there are A LOT of players is pretty strong. Good system few players doesn't make f or a lot of long term attraction (see the many good miniature systems that died for lack of a solid fan base over the last twenty or so years. . . )

Osbad
21-12-2006, 11:57
The "difference in scale" issue between LotR and WFB is a bit of a red herring really. GW were committed to a "realistic" style for LotR as they were trying to recreate the imagery of the film. WFB are slightly bigger, true, but the biggest difference is in the proportions. WFB minis have comic-style heroic proportions compared to LotR, where legs, arms, hands, feet, musculature etc are much more "realistically" portrayed.

If you don't know what I mean stand a LotR Dwarf next to one of the new plastic BfSP Dwarfs and it will hit you right between the eyes!

New Line didn't have to insert a clause to make the game a different scale because by very dint of utilising the film imagery GW precluded themselves from mixing and matching the two sets of minis to any great degree.

The only real difference may be construed this way is the shape of the bases. WFB is hard to play with round bases and LotR loses something with square ones. But not to any great degree.

Cactusman
21-12-2006, 22:43
I think GW will learn the hard way. I gave up with the hobby a few years ago when it was becoming clear that they were chasing the sales from the "kids" and were dumbing down the games. They seem to have balanced that out these days but I do get the sense that the ****** in suits have grabbed hold of the gearstick once more. Looking at the way White Dwarf is going I think we may be in for another Age of Strife (if you'll forgive the rather flowery and faintly ludicrous analogy) but it'll correct itself in the end. Meanwhile it's up to all of us old boys to keep the real hobby going and to not get to heated up about the idiocy from those ding-a-lings in Nottingham. After all, they want to make money. When the money starts drying up they'll change tack. It's inevitable.
And the staff vary. Some are the coolest guys around, some are complete tw*ts. Much like the wider world really...
There's a guy in my local store (I've moved of late) who is incapable of talking to anyone over the age of twelve ( and he's far older than me). His problem, though, not mine.