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Wolf Sgt Kirke
16-12-2006, 21:35
Being a bit of an oldie, I often find myself mid-game hankering after something that is no longer available/legal/useful - sometimes a troop type, sometimes a warear item, sometimes a rule.

So i thought i'd find out what every one else yearns for in the present.

My most missed are as follows

Troop type - 2nd Ed Blood Claws with jump packs
Wargear - 2nd Ed Shuriken Catapults (i never played eldar but it gave something to the game)
Rule - To hit modifiers.

But most of all i miss the big wedges of fluff in the codices

I know that these are all 2nd ed but they are at the top of my list.

So what do you guys and gals miss?

Slaaneshi Slave
16-12-2006, 21:39
Psychology playing a part in games.

Weapons jamming or blowing up.

Grenades being grenades.

Shokk attack guns!

Carlos
16-12-2006, 21:43
Vortex Anything

Master Jeridian
16-12-2006, 21:47
Orks......

Wolf Sgt Kirke
16-12-2006, 21:49
Damn it all!

I forgot how much i missed Psychology and psychic powers that worked and shookk attack guns and snotlingsand proper orks like freebooters and madboyz........

xibo
16-12-2006, 21:51
Movement Stats
Squats
to hit/armour save mods

Latro_
16-12-2006, 22:14
Psychology playing a part in games.

Weapons jamming or blowing up.

Grenades being grenades.

Shokk attack guns!

words, mouth, taken

Wolf Sgt Kirke
16-12-2006, 22:17
sorry forgot to mention overwatch and Zoats!

Killgore
16-12-2006, 23:51
Armor modifiers, more interesting wargear/ effects (anti plant missiles? yes please)

Crimson Templar
17-12-2006, 00:50
Space Marines in either 5 or 10 man squads
Being able to take a heavy flamer with CC terminators
Wargear cards
having a different mission objective then your opponent!!

My vet scout SGT with vortex grenade......bye bye carnifex(that did not carry guns)

Pavulon
17-12-2006, 00:57
Wasn't stand and shoot an allowed response to being charged in RT days? I always thought I'd shoot my plasma gun in somebody's face before they could run through the bushes and swing a powerfist at me.

PipTheFair
17-12-2006, 01:02
Shrieker rounds

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 01:05
Space Marines in either 5 or 10 man squads

I remember when this rule came out in White Dwarf, it changed my gaming so much! Prior to that you could only take 10 man squads, nothing more or less, at least for loyalist Space Marines.

So another one to add to the list!

Useful White Dwarf!

Wolf Sgt Kirke
17-12-2006, 01:09
@Slaneshi slave - you a squaddie?, if so i'm in hohne - if you want a game PM me. would be good to get a game.

Minister
17-12-2006, 01:11
Armour saves, multiple wound rolls (though not the habbit of making them the wierdest dice combinations going), grenades (though not blind, plasma and other remains-in-play ones) and (from 3rd edition) heavy bolters in my troops squads for the Sisters!

Oh, and T4 for Yarrick.

BodhiTree
17-12-2006, 01:15
Temple Assassins with WS 8 and BS 8. My Vindicare was a god amongst ants.

Ardathair
17-12-2006, 01:17
Harlequins having their own army list.
Squats.
Movement Stats.
To hit and Armor Modifiers.
Vehicals going out of control and hittimg their own army.

Crimson Templar
17-12-2006, 01:20
I remember when this rule came out in White Dwarf, it changed my gaming so much! Prior to that you could only take 10 man squads, nothing more or less, at least for loyalist Space Marines.

So another one to add to the list!

Useful White Dwarf!

How about when White Dwarf had cool stuff.... like card bunkers, and battle reports actually covered moves play by play vs whole turns per picture.

BodhiTree
17-12-2006, 01:22
Oh yes, I forgot Bar Room Brawl. I laminated the board and the counters, we used to use actual Ork models though.

Wolf Sgt Kirke
17-12-2006, 01:25
Genestealer cult lists anyone? :cries:

Torgo
17-12-2006, 01:50
Ork fluff and artillery
Importance of morale

Legion
17-12-2006, 01:54
The Legio Cybernectica "You Are green" *BOOM!*

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 02:00
Penal Legions.

Drug fueled psycopathic maniacs (also known as Adeptus Astartes).

FraustyTheSnowman
17-12-2006, 02:12
Shooting into hand to hand (not sure if this was an actual rule, but my former group allowed it, current does not) and overwatch. These are the two biggest at the moment, as they would have done me the most good in tonights game. How do you introduce the tau, and their jump shoot jump suits, and take away overwatch at the same time?!

Also, allies. I realy like orcs, and would like to play a few games with them from time to time, but with everything else I'm working on I don't have the money to go out and buy an orc army. So it would be nice to be able to use a squad or two with my LatD.

Cirenivel
17-12-2006, 11:57
absolutley not owerwatch! most of the time both oponents just put their entire army on owerwatch, and the first one to move usually lost

Cirenivel

Angelus Mortis
17-12-2006, 12:15
Some of mine are Rogue Trader stuff.

1. Overwatch
2. Squats
3. Old school Assault Cannon(kind of ridiculous actually, but thats its appeal lol)
4. Different warheads on bombs/missiles. Vortex, Anti-plant, Tangle, Rad, etc.
5. Penal Legions (Where are you going? Get back here and fight coward! Ok. You asked for it! *Boom**Headless body slumps to the ground*)

sigur
17-12-2006, 12:28
I'll join in then...

- Armour save modifiers
- psychology
- to-hit modifiers
- Orks as they should be (including Orky weapons, troop types, clans, ...)
- generally some more quirky stuff, more tables, a bit more randomness, more different things that can happen, a bit more humor.

IJW
17-12-2006, 12:40
Psychology, although just reducing the enormous number of Fearless or re-rolled Ld10 troops would do.

Shokk Attack Gun, & Shuriken Catapults that were more than glorified shotguns. Dire Catapults are good, though.

Thylacine
17-12-2006, 14:16
A Vindicare assassin with my SW army and Plasma cannons on Dreads.

Thylacine

lanrak
17-12-2006, 15:15
The emphasis on making the games better,more fun.
Optional rules ,scenarios unit types,etc.In WD.

In short..

The boundless creativity of the games developers ,prior to GW becoming a corperate entity.

Luke
17-12-2006, 15:19
I miss rock hard tanks and all those lovely damage tables.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
17-12-2006, 19:07
I miss all of it (except the lousy models). Yeah, it was a bit HeroHammer-esque... but whatever! Interesting things happened all the time, weapons misfired, grenades blew stuff up, close combat was individual rather than squad based, AP was non-existent... I think I'm going to try to get some of the old gang together and have a go at good old Second Edition. Thanks be to whatever's up there that I still have me rulebook!
Cheers.

PS- Fred is rather nostalgic now. He wants to be playing second edition immediately. He decides to compromise. He is putting Final Liberation into his computer as we speak.

studderigdave
17-12-2006, 21:34
Orks......


quoted for truth

Core_Commander
17-12-2006, 21:43
absolutley not owerwatch! most of the time both oponents just put their entire army on owerwatch, and the first one to move usually lost

Cirenivel

Totally agreed. Never played in older editions, but if you could just wait for the enemy to move and shoot him to bits, the game's dullness factor would skyrocket.


How do you introduce the tau, and their jump shoot jump suits, and take away overwatch at the same time?!

Well, if the overwatch was here, it would kinda defeat the purpose, don't you think? At least with this set of rules, if you want a piece of that battlesuit you have to actually come and take it yourself, not just mine the entire field with overwatching lasgunners and wait for it to pop up... Active combat ftw!

About grenades, I guess they're being used in a prefectly realistic way. If you have the enemy on open ground and you carry assault rifles, you would rather open fire at him than throw grenades. BUT if you need to storm the building, chucking some grenades into windows is a perfectly reasonable thing to do... And that's how they work in WH40k. Makes sense enough, right?

I personally miss Codices to be stacked with background and great pics. The new ones have ususally better rules, but in comparison, they are an eyesore and boring to boot (haven't seen the Eldar one yet though, maybe it has changed).

The Emperor
17-12-2006, 22:02
Totally agreed. Never played in older editions, but if you could just wait for the enemy to move and shoot him to bits, the game's dullness factor would skyrocket.

So in other words, you have no idea what you're talking about.

It wasn't the case at all that people would put their entire army on Overwatch and win. Overwatch is not the game winning move you think it is, and more often then not, you'd have your units shoot rather then go on Overwatch.


About grenades, I guess they're being used in a prefectly realistic way. If you have the enemy on open ground and you carry assault rifles, you would rather open fire at him than throw grenades. BUT if you need to storm the building, chucking some grenades into windows is a perfectly reasonable thing to do... And that's how they work in WH40k. Makes sense enough, right?

Except... they don't actually kill anybody. Which is kind of their point. Grenades go boom. To have people chucking grenades at the enemy, and have that action NEVER result in a casualty can hardly be called "perfectly realistic".

Anyway, you know what I miss? I miss a lot, but at the moment? The ability to run people down with my tanks.

Core_Commander
17-12-2006, 22:07
Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about, but it would be no fun for me if the enemy would shoot my battlesuits to smithereens every time I move them into the line of sight. Call it a defensive reaction on my part.

Big "no" to overwatch, even though it would let me shoot the opponent before he charges me or anything. Active game and taking turns is fine.

The Emperor
17-12-2006, 22:13
Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about, but it would be no fun for me if the enemy would shoot my battlesuits to smithereens every time I move them into the line of sight. Call it a defensive reaction on my part.

You know, being able to pop out, shoot, and get back into cover is hardly new to the Tau. There were Space Marine units which could do the same. They were called Land Speeders, and they had a rule which let them pop up and attack. What was it called? Oh yeah. The Pop-Up Attack rule. And you know what? Even with Overwatch, my Land Speeders still managed to survive a game intact more often then not. And I didn't cry about the possibility that my prized Land Speeder might get shot out of the sky. Instead, I used my brain and made sure my Land Speeders weren't in a position to get blown away.


Big "no" to overwatch, even though it would let me shoot the opponent before he charges me or anything. Active game and taking turns is fine.

Like I said, you have no idea what you're talking about. I played 2nd edition at least once a week, if not more, for the entire time it was out. And you know what? Every single game I played was active. Entire armies didn't just sit where they were and go on Overwatch. Every battle I fought was a mobile affair. The whole "army going into Overwatch every turn" thing never happened in any game I played, and I played not only with my circle of friends but against opponents I never met in game stores, instore tournaments, etc.

Core_Commander
17-12-2006, 22:23
Oooh. Easy there, pal. Don't get all high and steamy on my account, I only post here :rolleyes:.

I'm fine with how it is now, if you're not, thanks for the update. But how about changing the tone a little bit?

The Emperor
17-12-2006, 22:25
Not mad. Just that usually, when I want to EMPHASIZE a word, or phrase, I put it in caps. Easier then putting italics or using other UBB code. More expedient for me when I'm typing, but I forget that how I want something to come across doesn't come across the way I intend.

Wolf Sgt Kirke
18-12-2006, 00:27
Easy tigers.... but he's right overwatch was never that big a feature and even if it was there were ways around it - jump packs/bikes/swooping hawks/high armour values/ gretchin/warp spiders/anything else - so get over it!

there were much worse things in 40k than overwatch and yet we still dealt with them rather than splitting into "fluffhammer" and "powerhammer"

Redcap
18-12-2006, 00:34
even the lowly split the heavyweapon team of from the rest of the squad guard rule, grenade harnesses for termies, one shot grenade launchers for guardsmen, rhinos for the guard( they are ubiquitous after all) oh and chaos risking getting bad mutations small heads anyone?

Torgo
18-12-2006, 01:22
Bad mutations were from Rouge Trader, as I remember. It's been a while since I played 2nd, so I may be misremembering, but wasn't the safest way to use frag grenades to be standing in an open field, throwing them at someone else in an open field? Plus, military vehicles shouldn't be able to kill more people by running over them, than by shooting them with their machine guns. It's okay to like 2nd, and even prefer it greatly over the current editions (which are far from perfect), but don't call something more realistic when it isn't.

Ravik
18-12-2006, 01:40
Combi weapons were worthwhile.
Template weapons for 'Nids
3 different templates for the 3 different flamers.
Mephiston being a god.

I liked the template for the heavy stubber I think it was, the one with about 5 templates snaking each other.

Commissar von Toussaint
18-12-2006, 02:01
It's been a while since I played 2nd, so I may be misremembering, but wasn't the safest way to use frag grenades to be standing in an open field, throwing them at someone else in an open field?

Let me put your mind at rest: You are misremembering.

Have you ever thrown a live grenade? That is the easiest way to do it: Lie down and throw it at nothing in particular and concentrate on not getting hit by the blast.

If you want to put it somewhere (like through a window or door) it gets harder and more things can go wrong.

However, the payoff for tossing one in a building is also greater: increased strength and damage.

The way 2nd dealt with grenades was exactly right: The easiest thing to do was hit an exposed target. Next up was being next to the window/aperture and tossing in it.

The hardest thing to do was to stand at maximum range and hit a small opening.

Sounds realistic to me. A hell of a lot more than "Oh, I have grenades, so now we all jump up and fight at once!" :rolleyes:


Plus, military vehicles shouldn't be able to kill more people by running over them, than by shooting them with their machine guns.

Who said they killed more? Vehicles had a ram value and could hit people and other vehicles - just like real life. It wasn't always easy, but the payoff was awesome.

Read about the fighting in Iraq, how the tanks and trucks crash through ambushes. I believe the Brits gave a VC to a guy who drove a burning track through a barricade to escape a kill zone. Or was what he did not "realistic" enough for you?

Personally I like ramming dreadnoughts and bikes with my chaos rhinos fitted with crashbars. :evilgrin:


It's okay to like 2nd, and even prefer it greatly over the current editions (which are far from perfect), but don't call something more realistic when it isn't.

But if it is more realistic, feel free to do so.

Ardathair
18-12-2006, 02:47
I liked the template for the heavy stubber I think it was, the one with about 5 templates snaking each other.

I think you are refering to the Thudd Gun, which had four small, connected blast templates. The original Heavy Stubber was a strength 4, following fire, heavy weapon. It did not have templates in RT or 2nd Ed. Thudd Guns were just Cool though.

Speaking of cool, what about the stat. cool. Leadership, Inteligence, Cool, and Willpower (Ld,Int,CL,WP) all got shoehorned into Leadership. OK it was better for smaller, more detailed games than larger, faster pased games.

BattleSarge
18-12-2006, 04:03
Vehicals going out of control and hittimg their own army.

Can you say RAMMING SPEED

and Total Dommination by my Space Wolves. Although I never did the 20 man assault cannon/cyclone launcher squad

Locke
18-12-2006, 04:03
- some of the old avatar ownage from 1st, like exarch powers
- more expensive heavy weapons

...lol not much else

Slaaneshi Slave
18-12-2006, 04:14
Barrage weapon rules. Nothing beats firing four templates a turn from a Dreadnought missile launcher.

IBCCream
18-12-2006, 04:22
Jones is acting strangely....

Or really just old school barbed stranglers in general. :angel:

Torgo
18-12-2006, 04:45
Let me put your mind at rest: You are misremembering.

Have you ever thrown a live grenade? That is the easiest way to do it: Lie down and throw it at nothing in particular and concentrate on not getting hit by the blast.

If you want to put it somewhere (like through a window or door) it gets harder and more things can go wrong.

However, the payoff for tossing one in a building is also greater: increased strength and damage.

The way 2nd dealt with grenades was exactly right: The easiest thing to do was hit an exposed target. Next up was being next to the window/aperture and tossing in it.

The hardest thing to do was to stand at maximum range and hit a small opening.

Sounds realistic to me. A hell of a lot more than "Oh, I have grenades, so now we all jump up and fight at once!" :rolleyes:

I don't remember increased damage for being in a building, although if the models are packed together, I could see that. Point conceded.


Who said they killed more? Vehicles had a ram value and could hit people and other vehicles - just like real life. It wasn't always easy, but the payoff was awesome.

Like I said, it's been awhile, but I remeber rhinos running over my ork mobs, hitting on a 3+ and killing on 2+. And given coherency, that does a lot more damage than 1-3 shots hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4+.



Read about the fighting in Iraq, how the tanks and trucks crash through ambushes. I believe the Brits gave a VC to a guy who drove a burning track through a barricade to escape a kill zone. Or was what he did not "realistic" enough for you?

You can drive your way out on an infantry ambush in 4th. Sure, you can't kill them doing it, but it can be done. You can even run over barricades, using the difficult terrain rules.

nanktank
18-12-2006, 05:52
Ork Weird boyz, Mad boyz, Shokk attack guns, and free booterz

lapis_lazuli
18-12-2006, 15:48
I think the best bits seem to have been covered so far. I'd add that I miss the 2nd ed army lists. They were really flexible and fun to tweak, like the Chaos list where you could load up on hundreds of cultists.

I remember when 3rd ed burst onto the scene and I could no longer have apothecaries, techmarines and Terminator captains running around independently. That was annoying because I had, for example, a single Termie model floating around that now has to be put in a squad with other Termies.

Lexington
18-12-2006, 16:05
I miss the fun.

Pendragon
18-12-2006, 16:29
Multi-meltas with blast markers.

Weapons that caused 1D20 wounds to the target.

Running people over with vehicles.

Hit and run attacks with bikes.

Kamikaze ramming with bikes and jetbikes for taking out characters. Nothing like gunning it at full speed, aiming for the enemy farseer, letting it rip with every gun available towarads a massive crescendo of do or die rammings and drve by attacks with power axes and power fists. Awesome.

/Joel

scarletsquig
18-12-2006, 16:40
I miss the psychic phase :(

Rlyehable
18-12-2006, 17:17
Trees that caught fire?

GWvsJohn2
18-12-2006, 17:30
Mission and strategy cards.

In fact, cards in general!

Fredrik
18-12-2006, 17:34
Different movement

Ardathair
19-12-2006, 13:47
Jones is acting strangely....
:angel:

The reason why IG players name every man. "Jones? There's no Jones here. we have a ___ a ___ a ___ but no Jones." OK it usually didn't work but was good for laughs, worth spending the time to name 100 to 150 men.

Latro_
19-12-2006, 18:00
Conversions Fields

haha orks? nids? BLIND YOU ARE ALL BLIND I TELL YOU BLIND AAAA HAHAAHHA

Wolf Sgt Kirke
09-01-2007, 12:13
walking into blind grenades and walking out in a completely different direction even if you went in there for a CC with the enemy - you both came out on different sides - i think i miss the randomness the most.

and card fencing in the psychic phase.

Sir_Turalyon
09-01-2007, 13:30
I may surprise you, but I miss simple and climatic 3rd edition codices, namely Chaos, Guard, Marines and Eldar. Before veteran skills, defilers, doctrines and other abusable stuff.

I think these list wold work pretty well with current rules...

That and Orks (who were already gone when codices I miss were relased).

Wolflord Havoc
09-01-2007, 14:07
Over watch!

EDIT: This was where instead of shooting you could elect to place your unit on 'overwatch' and at any point in the opponents movement phase could elect to shoot.

It actually made sense and made players thinking twice about charging their uber lord into combat with a devestator squad.

Wraithbored
09-01-2007, 14:09
Psychology doing something, to hit modifiers, armour save modifiers and the 2nd ed Ork codex.

edit: oh and all armies getting almost equal attention.

Chimera
09-01-2007, 15:40
I once had an out of control Leman Russ piledrive a Lictor into the side of a building. Net result: a very, very dead Lictor, and Leman Russ-shaped battlecannon emplacement. Handy.

I miss that.

Carlos
09-01-2007, 15:51
Overwatch, together with save modifiers and hit modifiers were the 3 worst things about 2nd edition.

I, like many 2nd edition players, used to play large scale games (3000+) and didnt want to be spending 10 hours playing 6 turns. Overwatch brought games to a stand still and modifiers made it a bit more mathhammer than Id like.

3rd Edition was manna from heaven for me, as it speeded up the rules to the point where it took 3 hours to play 6 turns, even with 3000pts. Most gamers never used small forces, they used large armies and this is why we have 3rd/4th edition rules now.

If we were still playing with modifiers and suchlike things like Forgeworld just wouldnt exist.

I miss nothing from 2nd edition.

Kriegsherr
09-01-2007, 16:11
So in other words, you have no idea what you're talking about.

It wasn't the case at all that people would put their entire army on Overwatch and win. Overwatch is not the game winning move you think it is, and more often then not, you'd have your units shoot rather then go on Overwatch.


Well, it depended on the army. And on the player. Some IG Player I know very well was a real pain to play against because he just sat there and waited for someone to show up.... well, I like it more if even armies like the IG have to act sometimes you know... his armies composition and tactics have dramatically changed since then, altough CoD also helped in this matter.

So while it might not have been the game breaking move to go on overwatch, it was a no-brainer sometimes and quite boring if overwatch-highnoon was played by both players.




Except... they don't actually kill anybody. Which is kind of their point. Grenades go boom. To have people chucking grenades at the enemy, and have that action NEVER result in a casualty can hardly be called "perfectly realistic".

Anyway, you know what I miss? I miss a lot, but at the moment? The ability to run people down with my tanks.

Well.... to be completly honest, Grenades are not always used to kill people in RL... their primary objective is to pin down enemies (much like suppressing fire) and to clear strongpoints... but not only by killing the occupying soldier but also by driving them out of cover.
So the rules for grenades are not bad at the moment, they should just be ABLE to damage the enemy squad.

maybe have d3 soldiers of the enemy squad take an armour save or something like that.

Back OT, what I miss the most are all the shiney stuff you could outfit your characters with. Sure, some things were stupid, but others hilarious, like guided ammo for boltguns or autoguns.
I also miss the uniqueness of the old weapon profiles, like the shotgun that could fire S4 full rounds that shove the enemy 0,5" back back then, or S3 1"blast rounds... or executor rounds if you were playing the Adeptus Arbites... which also are dearly missed in this edition, both new shiney miniatures and rules that aren't just stormtroopers but worse.

Oh, and CSM only beeing a small part of the big entity that was the Chaos List. Back in the very early days when we still could take beastmen... such glorious days. Beastmen with 2 W each and T4 ... and each had the abilety to get any Weapon you wanted (well, at least PFists, PSwords or axes or rods, chainswords, normal CC-Weapons, laspistols, boltpistols, bolters, plaspistols)

Tyron
09-01-2007, 18:00
Decent fluff!

jfrazell
09-01-2007, 18:18
Yes, BC’s with jump packs and smoke grenades. Those were the days.

• Shokk Attack Gun. Nothing else compares.
• Vortex grenades.
• A. cannon IG sentinels
• IG speeders
• Melta pistols
• Plasma weaponry not having the “gets hot” rule but having to recharge.
• Warp spiders with the equivalent of flamers.

Rules:
• Differing movement rates depending on codex
• Overwatch
• Lemans shooting from off board

What I don’t miss:
• Games taking what felt like days.
• He who moved first won.
• Absolute Herohammer
• Having to review acres of modifiers and other charts. There is an easy middle ground from AP to modifiers without requiring an abacus to use.

monkey child
09-01-2007, 20:08
Over watch, Flamers setting people on fire, then getting their mates to beat them out, strategy cards... espescially last gasp iirc last act of a dieing mini, piulling the pin out of grenade and taking a few of the gribblies with them. Lucky shots when you couldn`t hit unless you rolled a six, then another six, then to wound then to save. Carnifex`s like somthing out of a horror film, think you`ve killed it? no its getting back up!
I need to go and sit in a dark room for a while:D

Oob The Doomlord
09-01-2007, 21:11
Wow! My 1st day as a member of this site after a 7 year break from 40k and this thread pops up! Sustained Fire Dice were a delightfully elegant concept, 'Ere We Go and Waaaggh were 2 of the most characterful books GW had produced, truly powerful characters stalked battlefields like gods, and still got vapourised by Lascannons (I played Guard back then, and had none of the former, but tonnes of the latter).
However, I'm back in love with the game, and can't help but point out that Necromunda uses a lot of the 2nd Ed rules (hit and save modifiers, movement stats, etc). Now, if they'd only re-release GorkaMorka or am I getting carried away?

Misanthrope
09-01-2007, 21:42
I too miss being able to trample and crush enemies with tanks. I also miss the cheaper prices. Chaos Dreadnought for $39.99... mmm.

vampires are cool!
09-01-2007, 21:46
Yarricks 'Iron Will'

Yorkiebar
09-01-2007, 21:46
I think generally I miss the same as everyone else, but I want to say one thing louder - ARMOUR SAVE MODIFIERS!!!

AP values just don't work right.

William Moran
10-01-2007, 17:30
I miss the Rouge trader rule book! Having 200+ pages of rules and 200+ pages of fluff was ace, never did play the damn thing just used to read the rule book for fun!

ZigZagMan
10-01-2007, 18:24
Displacer field, i've been expecting some space marine or eldar special character to show up with one for a while now....but no such luck.

hereticdave
10-01-2007, 19:48
Displacer fields were fun and alot of what i enjoyed about 2nd Ed was indeed the randomness that gave the game and the items that caused them character.

Shuriken Catapults, still an Eldar player i pine for the originals - gotta love a squad based weapon that'd scare the hell out of space marines. Power Armour? Pfff, 5+ save for you mate :D

Cover and range modifiers by far surpass the AP system and are more representative of how shooting is done. Space Marines dont' even have to bother with cover most of the time - why would they? Least previously there was an advantage and not just some crummy invul against the odd plasma gun etc.

Psychic phase....yes it was powerfull and as another poster mentioned i loved the card play as well, ahhhh the fond memories of praying for Ultimate Force and happily storing Force Cards away for the next turn. Sure the powers were powerful [The Inquisitor deck anyone?] but your chances of being able to cast them were always heavily contested whereas now they just go ahead and you have little way of stopping it.

Unless you have a Collar of Khorne which i HATE

LeeJerrum
10-01-2007, 19:54
Turning models so they can only just see creatures in there fire arc!

Probably illegal but fun anyway.

oh and Vortex Grenades!

Arkzein
10-01-2007, 20:49
Pretty much the echo of everyone here, most of 2nd edition basically. Decent vehicles, to hit modifers, psychology, mission objectives, useful psychic powers, all the wierd, wonderful and downright hilarious weapons and wargear, overwatch, a codex that felt like a proper book/tome, terminators being useful and hard as nails (Lascanon? pfft, still a decent chance of a save). Those epic games that lasted for a long weekend on a 12' table.... I'm sure everyone who played then has some brilliant stories of random things happening. (Knocked back with a displacement field, killed enemy with a vortex granade then get swallowed by it yourself! hilarity!) Not so much now with this "streamlining", might have had something funny with unexpected dice being about the height of it.

*nostalgia*

Old gaming club getting together this summer and going to be playing 2nd Ed and Blood Bowl. Love it. :)

Poisonpen
10-01-2007, 21:36
Oh... I want to say so much, but it has all been said (far more graciously) by others.

The only thing that bears repeating for me: To-Hit Modifiers, Armor-Save Modifiers, and more complex weapon profiles. That is all I want, really! :(

wildkarrde0
10-01-2007, 21:46
easy list

overwatch
displacer/conversion fields oh and the nid ones that kill off other saves
mission objectives cards
strategy cards (citys death does have this in a way)
grenades being grenades more fun to throw grenades

i do thimk some the older ideas could be easly intergrated to the current rules

drdenner
10-01-2007, 22:44
I miss Abadon the Disboyler (or something) wh40k 2. edition....
I ones toke down a hole Tyranid army with that guy :)

Necrontyr
11-01-2007, 00:01
I miss my exploding scarabs... they were quite good at busting terminators. Something Necrons now suck at.

Rangerrob
11-01-2007, 00:39
Sustained Fire dice...from the Shuriken Cats and Cannons.

The Targeting Grid and seperate chart for each vehicle. :evilgrin:

Vandur Last
11-01-2007, 02:29
24" Shuriken Catapults.

Movement stats and the ability to march.

Overwatch. Sacrificing shooting now to try and get a better result later is surely a key element of strategic thinking...right?

Eldar psykers being as good as or better than marine psykers.

Armour save modifiers.

Terminators rolling their 3+ save on 2D6.

To-Hit modifiers

Funky descriptions and effects for wargear. Example a Displacer field and Refractor field used to have cool descriptions and side effects, now they are just different types of invulnerable save.

Twin-linked weapons actually having a chance to hit with both barrels.

downundercadet07
11-01-2007, 04:00
Can any of you old timers tell me how the pathfinders were in the editions of yore? I have never felt that they lived up to their fluff, or their inquisitor stats.

Light of the Emperor
11-01-2007, 05:35
I miss the days when transports could actually take table quarters...'tis a waste now.
I miss the Dark Eldar too...supposedly '08 but GW will find some excuse to redo the marine codex before them...again.

eleveninches
11-01-2007, 08:58
vortex grenades
parrying
OVERWATCH !!!
Marines being the only ones who could rapid-fire
Termie armour being almost undefeatable
Specific Armour pen values for buildings in rulebook
Psychic power cards (rather than just rolling for the power)

Catferret
11-01-2007, 09:17
I miss spending ten minutes working out vehicle damage. Clear acetate targeting grid with separate damage for every location for every vehicle! Those were great times for making a cuppa and opening the biscuits! :D

Auxiliary Grenade Launchers. Cyclones which fired salvoes. Having to keep the Landraider moving because it's fuel tank had burst and the fuel caught fire! The Grenade Table. Spiker plants turning your army into cacti!:wtf:

So many things...

Ardathair
12-01-2007, 04:30
Can any of you old timers tell me how the pathfinders were in the editions of yore? I have never felt that they lived up to their fluff, or their inquisitor stats.

Pathfinders were first introduced in Codex: Craftworld, so there are no old timer stories about them.

Rengrave
12-01-2007, 05:56
the Solitaire.

overwatch. 10 ghost warriors with assault cannons and power gauntlets... overwatch... full auto. Tyranid armies would stop existing.

pulsa rokkit launcha, shokk attack.

again... vortex anything.

another favorite, squats.

Rengrave
12-01-2007, 05:58
oh yeah... another thing. those ghost warriors are RT...

plasma cannons doing 10 + D10 damage... another RT thing

Rengrave
12-01-2007, 06:05
Rhino drivers jumping out of wrecks with graviton guns! :D

another thing... graviton guns. minus D6 inches of movement? or was it D3?

magnificent*
12-01-2007, 07:12
I miss friends who didn't have wives taking up all their time.

Rabiez
12-01-2007, 08:20
Actually just returning to WH40K I must say I miss absolutely nothing from the old days (RT) except the fluffy books.

I remember from the old days, playing gigantic battles. My friend's turn started.
- ok Temporal Distortion, you get no fire phase in 4 turns and no movement phases.
Vortex grenades poured like rain down on my table half.
When it became my turn where I could move and shoot I only had one squad left and moving vortex grenades everywhere.

And yes my friend had a big beard at the age of twelve.

I do miss my orc models though and my looted land raider and of course the rule that red ones actually did go faster!

DrDoom
12-01-2007, 08:25
Overwatch.
Parrying
Chaos terminators with Thunder Hammers
Vortex Grenades
Daemon Weapons that added +2 WS and +2 S and devoured your opponents soul
Squats
Wargear Cards
Allies for armies other than Imperium

insectum7
12-01-2007, 08:33
Anti-Plant missiles might be the only thing really...

Ardathair
13-01-2007, 05:23
Rhino drivers jumping out of wrecks with graviton guns! :D

another thing... graviton guns. minus D6 Inches of movement? or was it D3?

In Rogue Trader it was D6, may have been changed in second edition. Since humans, space marine, and orcs had a move of 4", squats only had a move of 3" and being reduced to a move of 0" or less meant that the model took no further part in the game, that could be devastating with a good roll.

Champion of Biel-Tan
13-01-2007, 14:13
pulsa rokkit launcha, shokk attack.

As a 'Newbie' I don't know what a Shokk Attack gun can do. Can somebody tell me?

Pendragon
13-01-2007, 14:27
As a 'Newbie' I don't know what a Shokk Attack gun can do. Can somebody tell me?

It teleports a snotling into/onto the target. A great way to deal with terminators, teleport a crazed snotling inside the armour...

/Joel

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
13-01-2007, 14:32
'What do you miss the most?'

support for 40k's smaller but more epic-scale counterpart.

Daemon king Mad Dog
13-01-2007, 14:36
randomness.

Rowenstin
13-01-2007, 15:32
As a 'Newbie' I don't know what a Shokk Attack gun can do. Can somebody tell me?

It was a weapon from 2e, when the orcs had advanced teleporting technology. It consisted of one orc wielding som sort of awkward cannon/machine with three spinning spheres, surrounded by stands of snotlings (that were used as ammo)

Supposedly the weapon opened a portal throught the warp from the orc to the target (frequently to the inside of the target) and then the snotlings were forced to pass through it, with unpredictable results. I don't remember if the actual firing rules involved a roll to hit or the scatter die or a blast template, but I clearly remember how the effects were devastating against dreadnoughts and terminators.

Yorkiebar
13-01-2007, 16:01
I do miss my orc models though and my looted land raider and of course the rule that red ones actually did go faster!I believe red ones still do go faster, even if it is only by 1".

(Evil)Ash
13-01-2007, 16:01
Vortex granades, the whole chainsword, powerfist combo and a bolter for shooting, Bjorn the Fellhanded, Njall (not that I use special characters anymore) and strategy cards ("look out sir"). oh I also like that they actually released interresting rules in the White Dwarfs (like the birth of the Necrons).

greetz,:evilgrin:

machine_recovered_meat
13-01-2007, 16:52
Victims of flamers continuing to burn:evilgrin:

Meticulous
13-01-2007, 20:47
While I haven't been playing long enough to have fond memories of anything, if I had experienced better psychology rules, I would most certainly miss them...

Lothar bubonicus
14-01-2007, 00:43
Rams, over-runs, Overwatch, Grenades and The avatar's old statline and rules.

chivalrous
14-01-2007, 00:47
The old combat and shooting rules, they did wonders for accelerating my mental arithmetic

TheEndIsHere
14-01-2007, 01:15
What were the rules for raming and over runing?

TheEnd

Lothar bubonicus
14-01-2007, 08:30
What were the rules for raming and over runing?

TheEnd


You could ram other vehicles with your own. and you could run down troops with a vehicle. the vehicles strength/ram value was directly linked to it's front armour rating. the higher the armour, the stronger the hit.

Lothar bubonicus
14-01-2007, 08:34
But above all the thing I miss the most is low prices!

Hawkmoon
14-01-2007, 08:51
Swords being able to parry, strategy cards, Pcychic powers that actually did stuff, Vehicles that were slightly more durable than something made from paper mache, a larger variety of weapons and game mechanics that didn't cater to the company's shareholders and 10 year olds with ADD.

And I'll tell you what I don't miss... Vortex grenades! Sure, they were the great equalizer but it was tiresome having to deal with them in EVERY single game you played no matter what army you played against.

Perhaps the overuse of vortex grenades was what really caused the Eye of Terror! :p

Hawkmoon
14-01-2007, 08:52
But above all the thing I miss the most is low prices!

Amen to that Brother!

Dreamthinker
14-01-2007, 10:32
anti- plant missles, and the other kinds were fun, but the grav grenade is by far my fav 2nd ed item, not as cheesy as the vortex, cause it was smaller, and no one used them

OVERWATCH, or some other system that does similar. case in point, I have a squad of 10 guardsman who are in a bunker, 15 inches away, there is a little wall, with 5 raptors behind it, no scenery between the wall, and the bunker, the squad diidn't do anything last turn, so they aint busy, how come none of them are capable of shooting at the raptors before the raptors can run out....pause in front of us, to throw grenades, or use pistols, have a cup of tea, then charge in for assault, but no...the raptors move 1/2 of a football field, and all my guardsman can do is say oo look its some raptors, better cower in this corner to avoid the frag grenades, incapable of shooting their guns. its just silly

Lv 4 Librarian, in termarmor, lightning claws, combat drugs, vortex, Iron arm, quickening, and haulocaust, that warp drain, nullify DM card is the only way to stop him. bullets do not concern those that are god like.

Conversion beamers, and zoats, dreadnoughts that look like their wearing diapers, swords that are round, and stepping barefoot on one of those plastic gretchen from the 2nd ed Box set( pointy hat), are some of the things that take me back

Dreamthinker
14-01-2007, 10:36
forgot to mention the mole morters, and thud guns, squats in general, and that dang yellow plastic they used to use

VenrableOne
14-01-2007, 16:37
what do I miss? Good, balanced and consistent core rules. Not to mention a lot of what others have said.

lanrak
14-01-2007, 18:21
I miss game development!
All 40k and WH have now is model range development, and marketing ploys.

GAMES WORKSHOP sort of implies its all about the games and gamers.
But it is more about 'selling toy soldiers to kiddies',since Kirby took over.IMO.

As the great JJ was quoted as saying ,in reference to WH and 40k'the games are icing on the cake..'

Not good IMO.

Farseer Silvanus
15-01-2007, 08:56
I miss having great characters that you had leading your army. I had the Farseer With No name. He would always make a stop at Ulthewe and "Borrow" the Staff of Ulthamar for the ole man..lolAnd then go off and Fight his arch-foe and Tzentch Soceer riding a Disc..lol Miss all the cool Wargear. I still have two sets of the Dark Milliemum box set. I love that Eldar's Witchblade was a power weapon. I loved that the Harlies were all powerful in HtH.

cybertrophic
15-01-2007, 11:36
Damn it all!

I forgot how much i missed Psychology and psychic powers that worked and shookk attack guns and snotlingsand proper orks like freebooters and madboyz........

Just dug out my copy of Waagh! Da Orks and have gotten all misty-eyed. Makari was a great character - nowadays we'd have seen a miniature made of him for us to buy, as with any named character that gets a two-line mention somewhere in a GW publication...

What do I miss about 40k? Well, the fact that Eldar, Marines, IG, Orks, etc, all felt different - you had to think far more about what you were doing. I don't miss beardy players misusing the Dark Millenium rules - using a Vortex grenade followed by a psychic power to kill Ragnar Blackmane, despite his rules stating his "dodge" skill applies even to Vortex grenades, etc.

Most of all, though, I miss the fluff and the freedom in the rules. The codexes had stories in them and you felt really connected with your army (even buying models you never gamed with just to fill out the background side of it), which is gone nowadays. That and the fact the rules now act as if we are all six years old and you can't do anything outside of them in case GW bans you from ever playing again. Ho hum.

Wolf Sgt Kirke
15-01-2007, 12:45
Cybertrophic - dude i'd sig that whole entry if i could!

Commissar von Toussaint
15-01-2007, 14:56
I miss the attitude.

The old editions were based on the premise that GW was helping us to have some fun on our own.

It's as if GW was standing there saying "Hey, we know you'd like to try some sci-fi gaming. Here are some rules, some models. Hope you like them, and have fun!"

Nowadays GW stands there wagging its finger "You're not playing the way you are supposed to! That army isn't tournament legal! You'll get points off for composition! You're violating the spirit of the rules! That isn't a company-approved scenario and you aren't using approved miniatures and scenery!"

I also miss a system that didn't collapse when you add too much terrain. Am I the only one who noticed this? Used to be you could add as much terrain as you wanted and the game ran just fine.

Now if you add too many buildings, you need a supplement to play it. It's like the first edition of Warcraft, where if you built your empire too big, the program crashed.

cybertrophic
16-01-2007, 02:30
I miss the attitude.

The old editions were based on the premise that GW was helping us to have some fun on our own.

It's as if GW was standing there saying "Hey, we know you'd like to try some sci-fi gaming. Here are some rules, some models. Hope you like them, and have fun!"

Nowadays GW stands there wagging its finger "You're not playing the way you are supposed to! That army isn't tournament legal! You'll get points off for composition! You're violating the spirit of the rules! That isn't a company-approved scenario and you aren't using approved miniatures and scenery!"

I also miss a system that didn't collapse when you add too much terrain. Am I the only one who noticed this? Used to be you could add as much terrain as you wanted and the game ran just fine.

Now if you add too many buildings, you need a supplement to play it. It's like the first edition of Warcraft, where if you built your empire too big, the program crashed.

I do know the feeling. Playing 2nd Ed with friends a while ago, we covered an entire floor with necromunda terrain, hills, a three-foot long crashed spaceship and god knows what else. Marines versus Orks versus an Imperial Guard Army in a three way climax to a campaign (the IG were being led by a planetary leader who wanted to break away from the Imperium). Something like 10,000 points per side - I know I fielded 100 or so Space Wolves alone - it was immense. The rules worked, we all had fun and no-one complained about non-standard army lists.

With the latest edition of 40k, you'd have difficulty telling one race from another in gameplay terms, let alone be able to wrap up a game that size in a day. It seems to be too geared towards cityfight and kill-team - simplistic, not working well above skirmish level and somehow dull, despite the bodycount. God knows what you'd have done with one of our earlier scenarios (where we generated an almost medieval civillian population that had to be controlled by fighting the traitorous IG who had occupied their territory. We used scatter dice to determine the direction the mobs fled and a dice roll to decide if they fled from troops within charge range or fought them with their primitive weapons. Victory points were lost for civillians caught in the crossfire by whatever side shot them. Entertaining, but requiring a mix of Rogue Trader, Dark Millenium and 2nd edition rules to pull off.

No way to do that at all in the new rules. It's things like that I find irritating. 40k seems to be geared more and more to quick kill-all-you-see battles with small codex-only forces. Shame, as it prevents new gamers from experiencing the full range available to a wargamer and also ensures you get a lot of throwing of toys out of the pram if you try to do something similar with a newbie brought up in the fluff-free, 40k-lite period (since Macragge, or maybe even before, I guess).

Without wanting to sound like an old fart pining for the olden days (there were a lot of problems with Rogue Trader, for a start), it would be nice to get some depth back into the rules and background, even if you had a sort of streamlined get-you-going ruleset in the book for the newbies, as well. At least you wouldn't have to rely on house rules that you couldn't use at a GW games night, etc...