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Crassus
17-12-2006, 13:09
what do you think of the imperium? do you like the idea of it or do you think that it has to much power in the game

Splagbot
17-12-2006, 13:22
I love the Imperium, it's more diverse than any of the other races and somebody had to dominate the Galaxy, why not humanity.

Not sure what the poll was for but I voted Guard, because they're brilliant.

RampagingRavener
17-12-2006, 13:27
The Imperium fails to deliver. Xenos races for the win. :p

Seriously though, what do you mean by "what do you think of the Imperium?" Are you talking in the fluff, like its general structure and so on, or in the rules how Imperial (read: Space Marine) armies generally get far more attention than everyone else?

My take on the Fluff issue is I rather like the Imperium, but I do wish it was less 'doomed'. As it is, there's almost no way that it can survive with so many threats smashing into it from all angles (Tyranids coming in from the East, Necrons awakening, Chaos having busted up Cadia enough to slip through the Eye when they need to, rampaging hordes of Orks, Tau expanding rapidly, and so on). It would be nice if the Imperium could be seen as still being capable of surviving.

However, I just prefer the non-human races. Personally I find the Dark Eldar far more interesting than the Imperium, for example.

Kriegsherr
17-12-2006, 14:12
Witch Hunters. Coolest Minis, awesome fluff, the flair any imperial force should have - gothic, dark, fanatical and blingy.

Imperial Guard beeing close second, but only vostroyans and maybe DKoK, as I don't like the starship-troopers of Cadia.

Hellebore
17-12-2006, 14:17
I love the Imperium, it's more diverse than any of the other races and somebody had to dominate the Galaxy, why not humanity.


More diverse? And why is that? Perhaps because GW didn't diversify the other races, and produces only a single codex for each of them, but produces multiple for the imperium?

Diversity isn't really a good reason, because GW has 100% control over what DOES have diversity, and can change it at any time.

Hellebore

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 15:12
I voted Witch Hunters, which isn't strictly true. I would have voted Adeptus Sororitas, if the option was there. They are seperate from the Ordo Heriticus, merely fighting alongside them from time to time.

Splagbot
17-12-2006, 15:44
More diverse? And why is that? Perhaps because GW didn't diversify the other races, and produces only a single codex for each of them, but produces multiple for the imperium?

Diversity isn't really a good reason, because GW has 100% control over what DOES have diversity, and can change it at any time.

Hellebore

Well what would you like, 5 codices for each race and a sprawling mini range, the Imperium is more diverse bcause it is large and sprawling, there is more room for diversity, yes they could porbably squeeze out a few more books for other races like the Eldar with a codex each for Exodites and Harlequins, but apart form that what else could they do, how many other codices could they possibly produce?

PaRaSiTe_X92
17-12-2006, 15:45
I much prefer Eldar. One reason is they have the best and largest amount of (decent) fluff around.

I completely hate Space Marines, Daemonhunters and Witchhunters. I see them as very cocky, we-are-the-best type of creatures, who believe their dead leader is 1337. And stop saying "For The Emporer" all the bloody time!

So I voted Imperial Guard; there's something about them that makes me like them. It's probably just that they are just normal people. I also love the lasgun; teh best wepon in de tera eva!!1.

Hellebore
17-12-2006, 15:48
Well what would you like, 5 codices for each race and a sprawling mini range, the Imperium is more diverse bcause it is large and sprawling, there is more room for diversity, yes they could porbably squeeze out a few more books for other races like the Eldar with a codex each for Exodites and Harlequins, but apart form that what else could they do, how many other codices could they possibly produce?

Did the ordos of the inquisition exist in 1989? They had generic inquisitors. And yet here we have 3 ordos each to get a codex.

The point is, GW will make each race as diverse as they want them to be, and invent whole new areas to explore if it makes them money.

The imperium had a head start because it was quite well fleshed out in Rogue Trader, but that doesn't stop them doing the same thing to every race.

The limitations aren't in the races, because GW controls what limits them in the first place.

Hellebore

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 15:49
OK, I admit. I am that which is despised by the minority of the gaming community and ignored by the majority. I love Space Marines.

Three reasons:

1. They're the most heroic (if not insane) warriors you can imagine! Their ideals of honour and courage and their combat capabilities make me shudder with excitement when I deploy them for battle, only to watch them performing like Snotlings with slingshots (say that ten times in a row: Snotlings with slingshots).

2. The options! 1000 Chapters, all with their own distinctive history and traits. Fluff-fans Utopia!

3. My new, converted jump-pack Librarian! I know, sad...

Splagbot
17-12-2006, 15:58
Well yes of course they will release armies that make them money but they also release them because they need new books and models, Space Wolves Blood Angels and Dark Angels being prime examples of this and as for the Inquisition books they needed the army books they got and when you consider that in those books are contained the Adeptus Sororitas and the Grey Knights thats 2 armies that GW have been mentioning for years and the various Ordos have been mentioned for years there was just not the models for them.

The 1 case where I believe that GW are dragging their feet however is with the Orks, surely GW could speed them along a little, they're probably in more need of a codex than most other armies at the moment.

Sparda
17-12-2006, 16:24
I voted Imperial Guard, as their just reguler men and most of them dont even want to be there! but i dont realy like the Imperium fluff wise, the only army i actully like fluff wise is the eldar/dark eldar

marv335
17-12-2006, 16:24
40k is based around the imperium
the other races are just there so there is someone to fight.
that's it.
no imperium, no 40k.

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 16:31
Did the ordos of the inquisition exist in 1989? They had generic inquisitors. And yet here we have 3 ordos each to get a codex.

The point is, GW will make each race as diverse as they want them to be, and invent whole new areas to explore if it makes them money.

The imperium had a head start because it was quite well fleshed out in Rogue Trader, but that doesn't stop them doing the same thing to every race.

The limitations aren't in the races, because GW controls what limits them in the first place.

Hellebore

*speaks in low voice*: 'yeah, and I've also heard GW completed the construction of the Omega satellite that will control our brains and force us to buy Space Marines every day, place them on a table and kneel before them, praying for liberation from those unholy Xenos codices'

*continues normally*: Seriously, have you read yourself saying that? Because it sound a lot like Conspiracy Theory. Are you thinking that GW limits the non-Imperium armies just to annoy you, or because they think it doesn't make money?

The Imperium has so many codices because a lot of people like to play as humans rather than puckered daemons or drooling aliens, but not everyone wants to play as Space Marines. Also, as mentioned earlier, the Imperium already had a lot of fighting forces in the fluff, so a lot of people wanted them represented on the tabletop.

The fact that Xenos/Traitor races often have one codex is because a) they're not so diverse in fluff ('Nids, 'Crons, Tau), or b) because this diversity can be represented in a single Codex (Eldar, Chaos). Also, it is difficult to introduce a new race/army because how would it fight? What would it's strengths/weaknesses be? Almost every tactic is covered by the existing races.

Just don't let your disappointment stray in the realms of paranoia, or you'll end up in jail because you wanted to blow up GW headquarters!:eek:

Maus
17-12-2006, 16:35
I voted guard, but marines come close as they're so iconic. I don't really care about the others -- they were introduced after I quit 40k (though I'm starting again now) and I don't see the need for them. It's not like there was a hole that desperately needed to be filled.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 17:13
OK, I admit. I am that which is despised by the minority of the gaming community and ignored by the majority. I love Space Marines.

Three reasons:

1. They're the most heroic (if not insane) warriors you can imagine! Their ideals of honour and courage and their combat capabilities make me shudder with excitement when I deploy them for battle, only to watch them performing like Snotlings with slingshots (say that ten times in a row: Snotlings with slingshots).

2. The options! 1000 Chapters, all with their own distinctive history and traits. Fluff-fans Utopia!

3. My new, converted jump-pack Librarian! I know, sad...

1. The are homocidal maniacs, supporting a totalitarian facist government bent on genocide on a galactic scale. Very heroic. They are couragous because they are mind wiped on a regular bases via hypnosis to ensure they stay loyal (which is better than they do with Imperial Guard, any Guard who survive a battle against Chaos are killed by the Inquisition), and so do not know they should be running away.

2. Lots of options, they could either have killed this guy, or even killed that guy over there!

Baneboss
17-12-2006, 17:22
Pool has not much to do with the topic's name.

I love the Imperium! It is so refreshing for humanity at least once to dominate the galaxy. I admire Adeptus Mechanicus idea of preserving old technology, not to advance. Overall stagnation and gothic theme is so damn moody :)

If i would have to vote in pool i would vote Adeptus Mechanicus. As there is no such option i vote Imperial Guard because i collect them.

PaRaSiTe_X92
17-12-2006, 17:26
I agree with Slavey. They aren't really heroic, they are brainwashed with all that "For The Emporer" crap. C'mon, they're fighting for some dead guy they've never even seen/met. They probably don't know what he looks like!
That's why, out of all the Imperium, I like the Guard. Their saying is "For the Imperium of Man", which makes sense. And they aren't as obsessed with the Emporer as the Spak Marines. They mainly care about their friends, officers and, of course, their crazed probably-cannibalistic commissar.
That's why I like Eldar. Their Farseers (and Exarchs) risk their lives and souls daily with all their psychic powers and messing with the warp.

And 1000 Chapters all the same except about 5. If you ask any fluff-fan, their utopia is the Eldar.

Gearux
17-12-2006, 17:27
Witch Hunters!!
Shadowy Inquisitors, devious henchmen, uber-cool assasians, and most importantly of all: nuns with guns.
\m/:evilgrin: \m/

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 17:32
I agree with Slavey.

Slavey...?

PaRaSiTe_X92
17-12-2006, 17:41
Tis you + y. :D

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 18:44
1. The are homocidal maniacs, supporting a totalitarian facist government bent on genocide on a galactic scale. Very heroic. They are couragous because they are mind wiped on a regular bases via hypnosis to ensure they stay loyal (which is better than they do with Imperial Guard, any Guard who survive a battle against Chaos are killed by the Inquisition), and so do not know they should be running away.

2. Lots of options, they could either have killed this guy, or even killed that guy over there!

1. Yo. We play 40k. Therefore, I view it from a 40k perspective. Thus, they are heroic. (I also mentioned what you said, using the word 'insane' rather than 6 lines.;)

2. I meant fluff options. Tactical options (traits). Colour scheme options.

BTW:

-Carta Extremis-

Slaaneshi Slave, in fealty to the God-Emperor, our undying lord, and by the grace of the Golden Throne, in the name of the Ordo Hereticus and the Inquisition, I call thee diabolus, and in the testimony of thy crimes, I submit this Carta. May Imperial justice account in all balance. The Emperor protects.

Inquisitor Hiveminion+++999.M41++OrdoHereticus++file998032++D ata 00/aa/23++AccesCode:#omega++Thought for the day: Duty ends only in death+++

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 18:47
The Inquisitor Lord in my Witch Hunter force laughs at your petty Inquisitorial Mandate. :p

Hicks
17-12-2006, 18:49
I voted Imperial Guards, they are my main army so I didn't really have the choice. I totally love the Imperial fluff, that's what makes me love this fictionnal universe so much. If find it interresting that everything is always seen from the Imperial point of view, even when I used to play non-Imperial armies.

Sephiroth
17-12-2006, 18:49
1. The are homocidal maniacs, supporting a totalitarian facist government bent on genocide on a galactic scale. Very heroic. They are couragous because they are mind wiped on a regular bases via hypnosis to ensure they stay loyal (which is better than they do with Imperial Guard, any Guard who survive a battle against Chaos are killed by the Inquisition), and so do not know they should be running away.

Quoted for truth. :D

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 18:58
The Inquisitor Lord in my Witch Hunter force laughs at your petty Inquisitorial Mandate. :p

A member of the Officio Assassinorum has been despatched to his location. The Emperor protects.

Seriously though, Space Marines are indeed a bit crazy, aren't they? I think GW should decide which way to go with them. In most of the fluff, they seem perfectly sane and reasonable, yet when you think of it, they're crazed nutters worshipping a corpse (btw Parasite I think the Guard are even more insane when it comes to beliefs, remember they view the Emperor as a god:wtf: )

Still, when I play with my Marines, I like to think of them as 'good guys' rather than 'bad guys'. After all, harsh actions need to be taken to save mankind from total annihilation, and therefore it could be argued Space Marines are heroic in the 40k universe, just in a nasty, cruel sort of way.

azimaith
17-12-2006, 19:03
I much prefer Eldar. One reason is they have the best and largest amount of (decent) fluff around.

I completely hate Space Marines, Daemonhunters and Witchhunters. I see them as very cocky, we-are-the-best type of creatures, who believe their dead leader is 1337. And stop saying "For The Emporer" all the bloody time!

Coming from an eldar player its like the pot calling the kettle black while staring in a mirror at itself.



So I voted Imperial Guard; there's something about them that makes me like them. It's probably just that they are just normal people. I also love the lasgun; teh best wepon in de tera eva!!1.
I think its what alot of people like about the IG. They aren't the generic

"Cyborg-super cool-elite-navy SEAL like-ninja-invincible superman-saviors of humanity-rockstar-so awesome warriors you can practically see the awesome around us-marines" that unfortunately dominate the sci-fi genre. I liked marines in their older genres as the Emperors pet psychopaths who were fanatically devoted beyond any modern day moral values. The kind of marines who wouldn't shed a single tear for performing exterminatus on a planet even tainted with a single cultist, much less teeming with them.

The Imperial Guard are just normal people doing extraordinary things. I remember this in a sig:
"Real men don't wear power armor, they wear flak and jump out of a Valkyrie at 500 feet" After all, what takes more balls, being a superhuman warrior whose got the best weapons, the best training, best armor, and best body and going out and fighting tyranids, or to be a normal human in barely adequate gear and to stand and fight all the same. (Or be sumarily executed of course)


A member of the Officio Assassinorum has been despatched to his location. The Emperor protects.

Seriously though, Space Marines are indeed a bit crazy, aren't they? I think GW should decide which way to go with them. In most of the fluff, they seem perfectly sane and reasonable, yet when you think of it, they're crazed nutters worshipping a corpse (btw Parasite I think the Guard are even more insane when it comes to beliefs, remember they view the Emperor as a god:wtf: )

Still, when I play with my Marines, I like to think of them as 'good guys' rather than 'bad guys'. After all, harsh actions need to be taken to save mankind from total annihilation, and therefore it could be argued Space Marines are heroic in the 40k universe, just in a nasty, cruel sort of way.
Harsh measures to save it from annihilation? Where is it written that chaos is going to destroy humanity? Nay, it would want to preserve it indefinately so it may continue to exist and feed upon it.

Save humanity from what? The Tau? Oh its terrible, I have to press 3 buttons to get my drones to cut the grass, oh the angst, how I wish I was back in the underhive fighting off giant mutant rats, zombies, and living in pepetual fear of falling to the unseen taint of chaos.

Or the Eldar? Yes, they're arrogant, but do you think the Eldar would really turn down *real* help (Or even just terms to non-aggression!) from humans in exchange for non-aggression? Can you imagine how much easier it would be for the Eldar if their craftworlds didn't have to hide, deal with the inbred ignorant, and generally baseless hatred for their race coming from humans, which was indoctrinated into them the same way Hitler indoctrinated the youth that germans were the master race?

You think that all those alien races mankind goes around purging just for *existing,* the zoats for example, wouldn't have been happy to just ignore humanity in their little section of the universe? Sure there are enemies of humanity, orkz, necrons, tyranids, dark eldar, but there most certainly could be less if it weren't for their campaign of hate and ignorance they regularly wage upon themselves, enforced by their gestapo like inquisition or their insane zealot monk warriors, the space marines.

Good guys? Hah! At least necrons hate everyone equally without hypocrasy.
(And tyranids don't even hate *anyone*.)

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 19:13
The Imperial Guard are just normal people doing extraordinary things. I remember this in a sig:
"Real men don't wear power armor, they wear flak and jump out of a Valkyrie at 500 feet" After all, what takes more balls, being a superhuman warrior whose got the best weapons, the best training, best armor, and best body and going out and fighting tyranids, or to be a normal human in barely adequate gear and to stand and fight all the same. (Or be sumarily executed of course)


The thing is, what those Guardsmen accomplish with millions of men, the Space Marines do with a hundred.

Still, I like Guard. Power armour is indigestible:p

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 19:20
But I would say it is cheaper to throw those million Gardsmen into battle than it is to breed, train and equip those 100 Marines.

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 19:26
=azimaith;1153676

Harsh measures to save it from annihilation? Where is it written that chaos is going to destroy humanity? Nay, it would want to preserve it indefinately so it may continue to exist and feed upon it.

Save humanity from what? The Tau? Oh its terrible, I have to press 3 buttons to get my drones to cut the grass, oh the angst, how I wish I was back in the underhive fighting off giant mutant rats, zombies, and living in pepetual fear of falling to the unseen taint of chaos.

Or the Eldar? Yes, they're arrogant, but do you think the Eldar would really turn down *real* help (Or even just terms to non-aggression!) from humans in exchange for non-aggression? Can you imagine how much easier it would be for the Eldar if their craftworlds didn't have to hide, deal with the inbred ignorant, and generally baseless hatred for their race coming from humans, which was indoctrinated into them the same way Hitler indoctrinated the youth that germans were the master race?

You think that all those alien races mankind goes around purging just for *existing,* the zoats for example, wouldn't have been happy to just ignore humanity in their little section of the universe? Sure there are enemies of humanity, orkz, necrons, tyranids, dark eldar, but there most certainly could be less if it weren't for their campaign of hate and ignorance they regularly wage upon themselves, enforced by their gestapo like inquisition or their insane zealot monk warriors, the space marines.

Good guys? Hah! At least necrons hate everyone equally without hypocrasy.
(And tyranids don't even hate *anyone*.)


Do you even listen to what I'm saying? I said 'good guys' in a sarcastical way (the inverted comma's are a clue). And yes, you're right in saying that Chaos and aliens are constantly attacking mankind. That the Imperium provoked this is another thing. Do you think that if the High Lords suddenly say: 'You know, actually we are the ones to blame, we provoked this eternal war. Let's surrender', it will suddenly be peace? No. That's why Space Marines and Guard and every other military force the Imperium has is defending humanity.

I think it's a bit thankless to tell a battle-scarred Space Marine or Imperial Guardsman who has fought against unspeakable terrors in the face of adversity, has put his life in the line a thousand times, and has fought on a hundred worlds to save billions of people,that he is actually an evil oppressor and that he is anything but courageous!

You must look at it from a 40k perspective, not a 2k one.

Voronwe[MQ]
17-12-2006, 19:26
Slavey...?

There was one on your project log that called you 'slave boy'. I suppose you've become something of a mascot for Warseer.;)

Voronwe

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 19:31
But I would say it is cheaper to throw those million Gardsmen into battle than it is to breed, train and equip those 100 Marines.


Do you think so? 1,000,000 lasguns, 1,000,000 flak armor suits, 1,000,000 helmets, boots, and so forth. Plus the accompanying tanks and other heavy equipment. And when they die, they don't salvage those things (at least not the clothing). Space Marine equipment is nearly always restored from a fallen Marine.

PaRaSiTe_X92
17-12-2006, 19:32
(btw Parasite I think the Guard are even more insane when it comes to beliefs, remember they view the Emperor as a god:wtf: )
That is true. I'm not sure how to explain it, but seeing him as a God seems less obsessive than an immortal Emperor who kills everything whilst sitting down on a lump of metal.


Slaaneshi Slave, in fealty to the God-Emperor, our DEAD lord, and by the grace of the Golden Throne,
Quoted for accuracy. :p


Coming from an eldar player its like the pot calling the kettle black while staring in a mirror at itself.
It's true. Personally I don't think the Eldar would be arrogant and cocky, even though the fluff says it. C'mon, they ally with nearly any another race, and to be a race with few people, I think they should be nice and friendly, on the outside at least. Manipulative, yes. Arrogant, sort of. Cocky, no.


I think its what alot of people like about the IG. They aren't the generic

"Cyborg-super cool-elite-navy SEAL like-ninja-invincible superman-saviors of humanity-rockstar-so awesome warriors you can practically see the awesome around us-marines" that unfortunately dominate the sci-fi genre. I liked marines in their older genres as the Emperors pet psychopaths who were fanatically devoted beyond any modern day moral values. The kind of marines who wouldn't shed a single tear for performing exterminatus on a planet even tainted with a single cultist, much less teeming with them.

The Imperial Guard are just normal people doing extraordinary things. I remember this in a sig:
"Real men don't wear power armor, they wear flak and jump out of a Valkyrie at 500 feet" After all, what takes more balls, being a superhuman warrior whose got the best weapons, the best training, best armor, and best body and going out and fighting tyranids, or to be a normal human in barely adequate gear and to stand and fight all the same. (Or be sumarily executed of course)
Agreed. Imperial Guard FTW!


But I would say it is cheaper to throw those million Gardsmen into battle than it is to breed, train and equip those 100 Marines.
Exactament. Spak Marines are a waste of money!


You can tell I hate Space Marines can't you?

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 19:32
I think it's a bit thankless to tell a battle-scarred Space Marine or Imperial Guardsman who has fought against unspeakable terrors in the face of adversity, has put his life in the line a thousand times, and has fought on a hundred worlds to save billions of people,that he is actually an evil oppressor and that he is anything but courageous!


Literally! Imperial Guardsmen are executed for surviving Chaos battles, and Space Marines are mind scrubbed, so neither of them can speak of them, or be corrupted by them again!

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 19:36
Do you think so? 1,000,000 lasguns, 1,000,000 flak armor suits, 1,000,000 helmets, boots, and so forth. Plus the accompanying tanks and other heavy equipment. And when they die, they don't salvage those things (at least not the clothing). Space Marine equipment is nearly always restored from a fallen Marine.

Then the Genetic Engineering costs. Not to mention it takes hundreds of recruits to get a single one to reach full Space Marine.

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 19:37
Since when do we only fight Chaos???

Voronwe[MQ]
17-12-2006, 19:39
Harsh actions are never justified. It's just demagogical **** recycled throughout history. Immobilise that kind of simple arguments with patient, covering, tolerant explanations and examples of your own.


I think it's a bit thankless to tell a battle-scarred Space Marine or Imperial Guardsman who has fought against unspeakable terrors in the face of adversity, has put his life in the line a thousand times, and has fought on a hundred worlds to save billions of people,that he is actually an evil oppressor and that he is anything but courageous!
Do you think it is thankless to speak about the illegality of, say the Iraqian occupation to an american soldier? Do you think it was thankless to speak about the Great War to a german soldier, or about the Second World War, or speaking about the bombings of Hamburg to a british pilot?

Voronwe

Sephiroth
17-12-2006, 19:39
Then the Genetic Engineering costs. Not to mention it takes hundreds of recruits to get a single one to reach full Space Marine.

Add how long it takes to create a Space Marine. 3 years for the 18 implants alone, then add something like another five for the training between Aspirant to novice (aka, Scout).

Most Guardsmen would have seen a war already in 3 years, let alone 8! :p

PaRaSiTe_X92
17-12-2006, 19:40
Do you think Imperial citizens (who become Guardsmen of better) are supplied with contraception (sp?)? The amount of men that die daily means there needs to be a lot of men to replace them.

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 19:42
Then the Genetic Engineering costs. Not to mention it takes hundreds of recruits to get a single one to reach full Space Marine.


I'm not sure whether that's more expensive. Remember a lot of equipment Space Marine recruits get is second (or probably even more)-hand.

Also genetic engineering is done via the gene pools of the Space Marine chapter, so it doesn't cost money, and is constantly refilled.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 19:43
Add how long it takes to create a Space Marine. 3 years for the 18 implants alone, then add something like another five for the training between Aspirant to novice (aka, Scout).

Most Guardsmen would have seen a war already in 3 years, let alone 8! :p

I don't think they would. Most Guardsmen get fat on PDF duty, until the **** hits the fan in a sector near them.

Gen.Steiner
17-12-2006, 19:45
1. The are homocidal maniacs, supporting a totalitarian facist government bent on genocide on a galactic scale. Very heroic.

's not a fascist government... :rolleyes:

It's a totalitarian theocratic monotheistic dictatorship. ;)

Besides, acts of heroism can be performed by anyone, regardless of who or what they fight for. Well, unless they're a traitor, a heretic, or an alien, of course.

Personally, I love the Imperium with all my heart. :)

My men and women are religious warriors, fighting a holy crusade against the evil enemies of Humanity's divine right to the Galaxy and all its resources. We must cleanse space of the vile filth that resides in it through our strength of will, our purity of spirit, and our cocking great weapons.

EDIT:


Most Guardsmen get fat on PDF duty

WRONG!

The Planetary Defence Forces are not the Guard. The Guard is designed and used to fight and vanquish the enemies of the Emperor, blessed be His name.

Guard units on Garrison duty are there because the threat is seen as being high enough to warrant the deployment of forces that are better-trained, better-equipped and more experienced than PDF units.

If you will, the PDF are regular army - and the Guard are the Waffen-SS, Delta Force, Foreign Legion, SAS, Spetsnaz, and every other elite formation in history rolled into one. :)

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 19:48
;1153750']Harsh actions are never justified. It's just demagogical **** recycled throughout history. Immobilise that kind of simple arguments with patient, covering, tolerant explanations and examples of your own.


Do you think it is thankless to speak about the illegality of, say the Iraqian occupation to an american soldier? Do you think it was thankless to speak about the Great War to a german soldier, or about the Second World War, or speaking about the bombings of Hamburg to a british pilot?

Voronwe


You are viewing it from a modern day perspective. That's like saying that the Neanderthalers shouldn't club each other to death, they should talk about their problems like grown-ups (remember that's just 20.000 years difference, we're talking about 38.000 years here...)

I will not elaborate on my opinion on the current state of international politics, because we need to stay on topic

PaRaSiTe_X92
17-12-2006, 19:51
Nope, I still think the Eldar Farseers are the most herioc. Risking their life and mind (meaning, in the long run, the rest of the universe) using their psychic powers, daily; it must take an awful lot of guts.
Not to mention Yriel, who single-handedly defeated the Tyranids (sort of), even though it led him to a life on constant pain, suffering and damnation.

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 19:52
Unfortunately they are not part of the Imperium.

PaRaSiTe_X92
17-12-2006, 19:55
So? They're still more heroic than the Imperium. Especially the Emporer; he sent his foot-kissing buddy to go and kill Horus cos he was too lazy. The Horus came after him, he **** himself and nearly died.
(Joke)

Sephiroth
17-12-2006, 19:56
I don't think they would. Most Guardsmen get fat on PDF duty, until the **** hits the fan in a sector near them.

As Gen.Steiner put it; PDF are not Guard. The cream of the PDF are selected for the Guard as their planetary tithe or when a local war flares up.

Splagbot
17-12-2006, 20:05
So? They're still more heroic than the Imperium. Especially the Emporer; he sent his foot-kissing buddy to go and kill Horus cos he was too lazy. The Horus came after him, he **** himself and nearly died.
(Joke)

The Eldar, Heroic?

They brought about the end of their civilisation by being so decadent that there was a decadence explosion so large that it didn't just affect a country, nor a planet, nor even a single solar system, no they had to go one step further and cause a disaster so big that effects the whole ******** galaxy and create an evil god to boot.

Wow, really bloody heroic!

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 20:06
Hey, who's God are you calling Evil?!

PaRaSiTe_X92
17-12-2006, 20:10
Yours Slavey mate.

And yes, but that was when they were weak. They had conquered the whole universe, and then got bored. So they wanted to experience every type of pleasure. Enter BDSM, torture, murder etc.

But I'm talking about now. Nearly extinct, the Farseers go through great amounts of heriosm daily to regain their lost empire.

Splagbot
17-12-2006, 20:19
Yep Mr Slave, yours, sorry but he/she/it is.

In the past that may be, but heroic they still are not, the Eldar have the same view of humanity as humanity has of the Eldar and if the roles where reversed and the Eldar where in a position to do something about it I'm sure their actions would mirror the Imperiums somewhat.

Capt. Kaihara
17-12-2006, 20:23
Space Marines all the way. Like spartans of old.

azimaith
17-12-2006, 20:30
Do you even listen to what I'm saying?

No, I don't listen to what your saying. My computer doesn't read the posts on the forum to me outloud. I have to read them, the old fashoned way.



I said 'good guys' in a sarcastical way (the inverted comma's are a clue). And yes, you're right in saying that Chaos and aliens are constantly attacking mankind.

Quotation marks show sarcasm. They essentially mean "Allegedly". Apostrophe's don't mean the same to me.



That the Imperium provoked this is another thing. Do you think that if the High Lords suddenly say: 'You know, actually we are the ones to blame, we provoked this eternal war. Let's surrender', it will suddenly be peace? No. That's why Space Marines and Guard and every other military force the Imperium has is defending humanity.

Surrender to the tau, yes, there would be for the tau and imperium, after any dissenting factions are dealth with. To Eldar, possibly, they would get more mileage with non-aggression to the eldar than they would by their current path: aggravating them.



I think it's a bit thankless to tell a battle-scarred Space Marine or Imperial Guardsman who has fought against unspeakable terrors in the face of adversity, has put his life in the line a thousand times, and has fought on a hundred worlds to save billions of people,that he is actually an evil oppressor and that he is anything but courageous!

Fought for hundreds of billions of people, most of which live in squalor, so they could continue existing under a fascist regime of theocrats who prevent humanity from advancing into a more enlightened period. You don't seem to be catching on to how the Space Marines fight against horrors from beyond.

Chaos forms small cult in generic hive A. Plague zombies appear, marines go in and kill them and the cultists. Hurrah, all done right? No, now they go and kill the men, women, children, pets, imperial guardsmen who all lived through this. But don't worry, their souls are safe from chaos (which they apparently they achieve by casting their souls adrift in the warp to be rent apart by voracious warp entities.) Then they go out expunge all "taint" to the last man, woman and child burning purging them with their "blessed" promethium. And then they get to go home after cleansing themselves. Suprisingly no space marines go out and execute each other for all participating in the tainted zone. It must be because history tells us that space marines *NEVER* fall to chaos, Horus can vouch for that. Hypocrital, self-righteous, and intensely brutal. They're the people who stone the woman whose raped in the middle east but not the man who raped her.

The Space Marines fight the "horrors from beyond" like the Tau and Eldar for a corpse and to keep the status quo of a rotting carrion empire that is the Imperiums heart. Saying that space marines are heroic is like saying the SS officers who pulled Jews out of their home in the the 40's to be gassed en masse were heroic because the jews could fight back and they were an "impure" race.



You must look at it from a 40k perspective, not a 2k one.
The 40k perspective? What if I play eldar? Then the humans are usurpers of a greater empire, fueld by mindless hate to attack a race that had not even hurt them before.

I play necrons, humans are like bugs, mindless, ignorant, unwilling to better themselves, easily herded like cattle to the slaughter by their own hypocritcal weakness.

Just because you fight a big scary monster doesn't mean your automatically good. Look at the followers of chaos? Immortality, freedom from fear of death, and infinite possibilities for advancement upward to greater power and ability if your willing to work for it are there. Whats there for humans who follow the emperor? Rotting in a hive city if your not born rich.

I'd advise reading the introduction to the imperium in the BGB. In many ways "falling to the horror of chaos" sounds alot more appealing that whats described for most of the people in the Imperium.

Splagbot
17-12-2006, 20:50
So who are the heroes in the 40K universe?

Tau-I think not, in the Tau Empire there is no free will.

Chaos-Nuff said!

Necrons-They want everyone dead as they think it makes them better, eh?

Tyranids-Erm...no!

Eldar-They brought about the downfall of their own empire, by the time they had finished there was no empire left for the Imperium to usurp.

Orks-As long as you like fighting endlessly.

Dark Eldar-Even the Eldar think they're a bunch of tossers.

The Imperium-They butcher their own for the slightest reason, they allow their citizenry to live in squalor and they fanaticly enforce the worship of a man who did not want to be worshipped, heroic, I think not.

For each of these races the leaderships moral fiber could be called into question, in truth there are no heroic governments in the 40K universe, you would have to look somewhat lower to find the real heroes.

azimaith
17-12-2006, 21:14
So who are the heroes in the 40K universe?

Tau-I think not, in the Tau Empire there is no free will.

Yes there is. Only tau are controlled by pheremones. If your gue'la your a second class citizen but you have more freedom and less to fear from your own government.



Chaos-Nuff said!

What? Ooh tentcales, that means they're evil? Chaos is the great american dream, you work hard as you can and exploit your natural talents and you get to be a daemon prince. You also get to be immortal. Oh the horror. If anything chaos is much more accepting and open than the imperium is.



Necrons-They want everyone dead as they think it makes them better, eh?

Necrons don't want everyone dead. I'm getting sick of seeing this same falsehood spread all over. They want to enslave everyone to have food for their masters epicurean piques at all time. And I never said necrons were good.



Tyranids-Erm...no!

Nids are just a force of nature, no more evil than a tornado or tidal wave.



Eldar-They brought about the downfall of their own empire, by the time they had finished there was no empire left for the Imperium to usurp.

You've got your timeline wrong. The Eldar empire fell around the time of the Horus Heresy(Sometime around 28,000.) This was after the Alien Wars in 21000 when humans fought the Eldar (and orkz)



Orks-As long as you like fighting endlessly.

Never said orkz were good either.



Dark Eldar-Even the Eldar think they're a bunch of tossers.

Wanna quote where I said dark eldar were good?



The Imperium-They butcher their own for the slightest reason, they allow their citizenry to live in squalor and they fanaticly enforce the worship of a man who did not want to be worshipped, heroic, I think not.

For each of these races the leaderships moral fiber could be called into question, in truth there are no heroic governments in the 40K universe, you would have to look somewhat lower to find the real heroes.
Who said anything about heroic governments. Claiming that he imperium is not the "good guys" doesn't mean that someone else is. Theres the obvious possibility that there are no good guys.

The closest thing to a heroic government are the Eldar, who at least attempt to prevent catastrophes in the galaxy from occuring. They warned the Emperor about Horus's Treachery. They tried to stop the Necrons, as well. But all they got for any of this was a swift kick in the ass from humans so they just decided to avoid trying to help anyone and keep to themselves and their own devices (which sometimes cross with humans/orkz/whatever.)

Splagbot
17-12-2006, 21:46
Wanna quote the part of the post where I said I was directing my comments solely at you.

Calm down mate, I wasn't directing the post at you in particular and I never said that anyone ever said that these guys are the goodguys, the basic thrust of the post is that in 40K universe there is no such thing as a heroic race, they all have their flaws in their own ways.

It's not the tentacles that makes Chaos evil, it's the fact that their hell bent on destroying the Imperium, which I would imagine is a much better place to live for Joe Citizen than the Eye of Terror, if thats the great American dream I'm bloody well glad I don't live there then.

As for the Eldar, they think only of themselves, their efforts have got nothing to do with saving anybody else but themselves from a god that they themselves created.

Yeah, got my timeline mixed up there a little, my bad.

azimaith
17-12-2006, 22:13
Wanna quote the part of the post where I said I was directing my comments solely at you.

Calm down mate, I wasn't directing the post at you in particular and I never said that anyone ever said that these guys are the goodguys, the basic thrust of the post is that in 40K universe there is no such thing as a heroic race, they all have their flaws in their own ways.

Naturally, it makes them more believable.



It's not the tentacles that makes Chaos evil, it's the fact that their hell bent on destroying the Imperium, which I would imagine is a much better place to live for Joe Citizen than the Eye of Terror, if thats the great American dream I'm bloody well glad I don't live there then.

Are you kidding? Being hell bent on destroying the Imperium is like being hell bent on destroying Nazi germany. Have you read the description of the Imperium just in the first pages of the book? At least in the eye of terror one can gain power for one self by working for a patron and moving up. The ability to gain status and rank within a society is the "American dream" The Imperium is a static place where if your born the underhive, your going to stay there and die there. I don't mention the eye of terror specifically because that connects it to chaos space marines, which is not the same thing as chaos. The Eye of Terror is no more evil than anywhere else, though its certainly unnatural, that would imply a human centric universal law of right and wrong. If Joe Citizen lives in the eye of terror and labors under Tzeentch so he gets a third arm to better perform his craft hes better off than Joe Citizen who works in the underhive and gets his arm bitten off by a mutant rat. Chaos is a paradise of sorts, where anything is possible and the rules that used to constain a person no longer apply. As long as your willing to work to gain favor with the lords of the realm your better off. Why do you think chaos worship is so popular? Because people think that if they summon daemons they would get lucky and be dismembered?



As for the Eldar, they think only of themselves, their efforts have got nothing to do with saving anybody else but themselves from a god that they themselves created.

Which is why they battle the necrons, and warn humans of their impending threat? Because the necrons are of course intrinsically attached to slannesh obviously. Doing something that has good ends and benefits you doesn't make it any less good. Thats like saying that giving a car away to a charity so you can get a tax deduction is evil, and you really wanted to be good you should have just left the car on the side of the road to rust away.



Yeah, got my timeline mixed up there a little, my bad.
The timeline is hard to follow in 40k.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 22:16
Eldar will ONLY do anything if it aids them. If by virus bombing an Imperial world they can save the life of a warlock in 3,000 years time, then its a great idea!

Greatoliver
17-12-2006, 22:20
Side note - read for information, not for material on this thread.


...It's a totalitarian theocratic monotheistic dictatorship. ;)...

It's not actually monotheistic - it's monode-istic. I think it's that...

A theistic god is one that is all loving, all powerfull and all knowing like the Christian god (which isn't possible...).

A de-istic god is one where it is not supreme like that. It may just be "supreme" in strength or knowledge, but it is not the ultimate being.

(2 Things: 1) Don't know how to spell the d-word, 2) PM me if you want to know why the god thing...)

Just so you know.

azimaith
17-12-2006, 22:23
Eldar will ONLY do anything if it aids them. If by virus bombing an Imperial world they can save the life of a warlock in 3,000 years time, then its a great idea!
If virus bombing an eldar craft world would plain old kill eldar just for being eldar the imperium would do it too. They'd do it a thousand times over if they had the capability. Let me put it this way: Lets say Eldar encountered genestealers *first* (false but this is an example.) And they learned that tyranids implanted beings and subverted their DNA to draw the hive fleet nigh and create more genestealers. Now lets say they kill off the infestation and a hive fleet is rolling in. So lets say these eldar land on an exodite world that has the encroaching hive fleet incoming and there happen to be humans, Imperial guardsmen who have already tangled with genestealers and don't know what they actually do.

The Eldar would *warn* them of how genestealers because it would save their planet from being steam rolled by the hive fleet.

Now lets reverse the situation, by imperial doctrine the imperials if they knew, would rather let the planet fall and every human and eldar die on it rather than aid an alien race. (Because they are tainted by contact)

Its the hatred without purpose that puts humans below Eldar. Eldar won't cut off their nose to spite their face, while Humans would cut off their head to spite their face.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 22:26
Nobody is saying the Imperium is not the bad guys. All I was trying to point out is Eldar are not good guys.

NeonDante
17-12-2006, 22:29
I like the guard best. Sure, the space marines are heroic, but it's easy to be heroic when you're a geneticly enhanced superhuman warrior with power armor. Wheras the guard have to stand up to demons, aliens and mighty technology armed with a flak jacket that won't stop most small arms and a lasgun made by the lowest bidder. That's heroism.

It's like the difference between superman and batman.

==Me==
17-12-2006, 22:31
Wow, lots of hate, which is what the 40k universe is all about :D

The Imperium is xenophobic, intolerant, unwilling to embrace technology or change for its betterment, and any other bad thing. Take every "evil" government or regime in the history of mankind, roll it up and spread it across the entire galaxy, then you might have an idea of the Imperium at large. The Inquisition thinks nothing of wiping out entire planets to get rid of a couple cultists and mind-scrubbing or "purging" all who have come into contact with Chaos or Xenos.

The Eldar had it all, the galaxy was firmly within their grasp. But, instead of guiding the lesser races to better them and the galaxy as a whole, like their creators, the Old Ones, they went nuts and reveled in their greatness, until they rent reality apart and doomed themselves. Now, they sulk about the stars prolonging their extinction. Eldar will do anything to stay alive for a few years longer. One Eldar life is worth more than an entire planet full of humans or any other race. And we won't even get into the Dark Eldar.

Orks and Tyranids are more or less a force of nature. Orks love a good fight and Tyranids are hungry, but that doesn't make them any less threatening or terrifying. I doubt the people of Armageddon or Prandium said, "Boy, these guys aren't evil, they're just fulfilling a biological directive."

Chaos is the perversion of all that is good in humanity. They embrace the negative emotions of bloodlust, deception for the sake of amusement, abandonment of all inhibition, and the desire to see all rot. Followers of Chaos use all the tricks to gain favor of their gods, by killing, destroying, and burning all in their path. Perhaps their followers originally intended to use the power for good or the betterment of mankind (anything is better than that Imperium), but they are long gone, replaced with merciless slaughterers.

Necrons and their Star Gods are evil, plain and simple. The C'tan can live by absorbing a star's energy, but they choose to feast upon the living essence of other beings simply because they enjoy it more. The Nightbringer put the fear of death in all living beings to make them taste better when he finally ended their miserable existence. The Necrontyr only enlisted these Star Gods and cast down their mortal forms out of spite. They hated the Old Ones and their followers out of jealousy. There is absolutely no redeeming quality in destroying what another has built simply because you cannot build it or did not try.

The Tau are no good guys either. They are idealistic and embrace other cultures on the surface, but are just as intolerant as the Imperium. The Tau look down upon the other races, even those who embraced the Greater Good. They are extremely arrogant, convinced that they are a superior race and must "enlighten" the others. Tau themselves have no free will, controlled by the Ethereal caste. Commander Farsight realized this and broke away, but he is now labeled a traitor (much like the heretic leader from Halo 2). Arrogant and manipulative, the Tau are no good guys.

As you can see, there are no good races in the 40k universe, which is just perfect. The best part of the game is the dark, gothic, hopeless backdrop that everything is affected by. That doesn't mean, however, that there are no heroic individuals or individuals of redeeming value. The PDF soldiers who faced down Kracken when the Imperium abandoned them to save more important worlds, the Eldar Guardian who goes into battle to protect his kin and their race, the Space Marines who lay down their lives for the good of mankind (drugged up psychos or not, they kill things dead), and the list goes on.

The varying shades of gray make the game great, a player can look at the background and interpret as they want. They can lead vicious killers to assert their race or organization's dominance over a rival group or race or anything in the way or they can strive to protect innocents from the predation of their would-be destroyers.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 22:31
Wheras the guard have to stand up to demons, aliens and mighty technology armed with a flak jacket that won't stop most small arms and a lasgun made by the lowest bidder.

Sounds like the British Army! :p

xibo
17-12-2006, 22:37
Hmmm... 'Dark' Space Elves do what they feel like, including evil things like sacrificing to slaanesh. Imperial Gouvernours do what they feel like, including evil things like defecting and sacrificing to the powers of the warp, including slaanesh.

Orks are allways eager to fight. The Imperium is allways eager to fare war.

Necrons want(s) to consume your souls. The Emperor IS CONSUMING your souls.

Nurgle/Tzeentch want to make you mutate into a random beeing, just to see if it was an improvement - maybe you'll die, but nurgle/tzeentch then know that that mutation was suboptimal. Apothecari make you mutate to monsters including wulfes and vampires, and most of you die becoming space marines either way... just with the difference that apothecary don't learn from their mistakes.

Khorne wants you to splatter loads of blood and collect skulls everywhere. The Emperor wants you to spill as much blood as you're able to, but you don't need more skulls as they are allready EVERYWHERE on your armour, your weapons, your vehicles...

Slaanesh wants you to be happy by doing sinfull things. The Emperor wants you to do sinfull things without becoming happy...

The 'High' Space Elves want to return to their former power. The "Emperor wants" to return to his former power too... but unlike the Eldar, the "Emperor wants" to get rid of the star child.

The Tau are space tech nerds, but whats a computer good for if you can have a communication servitor, a calculation servitor, a word processor servitor, ... besides, of cause, computers whose machine spirits are not worshipped will become sad and refuse to work unlike servitors who don't have real feelings.

Nids want to eat, so they eat guardsmen because they are just so tasty...
Space Marines want to eat, so they eat other beings including their fallen enemies and of cause guardsmen because in their oppinion those are lesser beings...

Squats want to ride bikes :p . Space marines want to ride bikes.

Greatoliver
17-12-2006, 22:40
Hurhurhur. Nicely done NeoDante. I like your style...:p

Okay, numerous things:

1) Are we talking about good and bad/evil? As it is completely subjectional, there's no point even talking about it... :rolleyes:

2) Who said that Tau don't have free will and said it was bad? That's good! Hopefully it means that everyone lives well, like if it was a Buddhist state. That would be so good...Everyone would care for each other...

Buddhist Communism - better that democracy? Meh, it's a bit over my head. You could forget #2...Unless you can instruct me in a nice manner. :D

3) To the actual topic, I've voted for IG as I'm quite attracted to the Armoured Companies. And no, I'm not a technosexual!!! ;)

4) Have you noticed that the Imperium is a bit like Christianity..? I might expand on this when I gather enough evidence...Nope - that's a joke! (...For the moment...)

That's about all.

Justicar_Freezer
17-12-2006, 22:49
I quite like the Imperium. Than again in most every game I play I enjoy the humans. I like playing the humans because they are always the underdogs and usually they are the least liked faction. I also think the fluff behind the Imperium is good. Yes it's opressive and yes their are perils of living there, however I'd take those perils rather than giving up my soul and have the chance of becoming some demons plaything.

I voted for the Demonhunters for my favorite army because to me they seem the most heroic. The Grey Knights resemble Knights of old to me. They fight the most horrible foes known to man and I know someone is going to say it's because they have to but I don't care.

Also to me the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus are tied with the Inquisitors of the Ordo Xenos for the title of least evil of the inquisitors.

My views of 40k are formed a lot by 2nd edition and novels I have read from the BL namely the Eisenhorn trilogy and the Grey Knights series.

Greatoliver
17-12-2006, 22:54
Admittedly, the DH have the best HQ choices in the whole game - either you can have a Devastator squad look-a-like which also acts like one, or you can have a kick-ass dastard equiped with a BFG and an axe to go with it!

Reflex
17-12-2006, 22:57
there is a problem with your poll... it dosent say all of the above armies.. :p

mistformsquirrel
17-12-2006, 22:59
Witch Hunters. Coolest Minis, awesome fluff, the flair any imperial force should have - gothic, dark, fanatical and blingy.

My vote too. I love the set up of the whole thing - and you can make amazingly varied forces all without ever leaving the codex! And if you include allies/inducted troops...

You can just do ridiculously cool things with the Witch Hunters imho - this on top of awesome looking models, neat fluff, and enough flamers to BBQ Cleaveland, Ohio in 10 minutes or less! (What can I say? Pyromania ftw!)

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 22:59
Admittedly, the DH have the best HQ choices in the whole game - either you can have a Devastator squad look-a-like which also acts like one, or you can have a kick-ass dastard equiped with a BFG and an axe to go with it!

Or I could simply take a Cannoness with a 2+ Invulnerable save, Mastercrafted Str 7 Powersword and a melta pistol. :p

azimaith
17-12-2006, 23:01
The Eldar had it all, the galaxy was firmly within their grasp. But, instead of guiding the lesser races to better them and the galaxy as a whole, like their creators, the Old Ones, they went nuts and reveled in their greatness, until they rent reality apart and doomed themselves. Now, they sulk about the stars prolonging their extinction. Eldar will do anything to stay alive for a few years longer. One Eldar life is worth more than an entire planet full of humans or any other race. And we won't even get into the Dark Eldar.

Eldar won't do anything to stay alive a few years longer. Eldar who do that are called Dark Eldar. Dark eldar eat souls.

Eldar still make efforts to bring humanity warnings against common foes. They warned them of the Horus Heresy, they warned them of the Necrons, humanity ignores them each time (or sends back heads in boxes). Willingness to put down arrogance and self-aggrandizing hubris to do something more important is a hallmark of a "better" race than one who refuses to doubt its own motivations. This is why I put eldar above humans. Eldar tried helping by directly contacting the Emperor before the Horus Heresy, over time they've done less and less. To put it simply, the humans threw the first punch and now the Eldar don't care about humans anymore.



Chaos is the perversion of all that is good in humanity.

This is not true. We only see one side of chaos, the warmaking side, because thats what the Imperium centric view wants you to see.


They embrace the negative emotions of bloodlust,

Yet Khorne is also a god of martial prowess and military honor according to fluff.



deception for the sake of amusement,

First off, Tzeentch doesn't decieve people for amusement, he reads the skeins of fate and works things to his advantage. Second, Tzeentch is also a god of wisdom, foresight, and patience.



abandonment of all inhibition,

And the embracement of life and its passions. A god of enjoyment, and pleasure, not necessarily at anothers expense. Abandoning Inhibition isn't bad unless its affecting something else thats suffering.



and the desire to see all rot.

No, nurgle is a god of comfort, not of decay. Nurgle, or Grandfather Nurgle as he is often called, gives comfort to his followers and relieves their fear of death. While he may not cure ailments of physical beauty he salves the pain, suffering, and depression of his followers.



Followers of Chaos use all the tricks to gain favor of their gods, by killing, destroying, and burning all in their path.

And the Imperium doesn't?

Chaos followers fluff wise are generally picked up by cults, not by chopping off someones toes and forcing them to convert at the barrel of a gun. Joining them is voluntary, and if you go to war against their followers you risk incurring their wrath, in which case its war.



Perhaps their followers originally intended to use the power for good or the betterment of mankind (anything is better than that Imperium), but they are long gone, replaced with merciless slaughterers.

Only the chaos space marines would follow that, and much of that is based off their time *as* space marines. Let me give you an example. In the Chaos Codex there is a page that telling of a battle between two tribes, one that worshipped the "The Four Winds" and the other that Worshipped the Emperor.

They fought against "Storm Giants" of the Emperor while their own giants battled them (CSMvSM obviously). Yet what happens at the end of the battle? A CSM approaches a young man who managed to kill a space marine with a spear, stabbing into a giant hole rent in his armor and offers him a chance for vengeance against the people who stole their land and attacked their people for their gods. (Note who the aggressor is here). The Four Winds of Chaos weren't about butchering civillians, they were aspects of human nature that were worshipped. (Thus chaos gods.) CSM butcher civillians, and the civillians are killed in the same way heretics are butchered by the Imperium.



The Tau are no good guys either. They are idealistic and embrace other cultures on the surface, but are just as intolerant as the Imperium. The Tau look down upon the other races, even those who embraced the Greater Good. They are extremely arrogant, convinced that they are a superior race and must "enlighten" the others.

And somehow their relatively peaceful technologically progressive inclusive empire makes them inferior and less enlightened? They freed kroot from orc slavery for example, its too bad those kroot had to be enlightened, considering how much fun slavery must have been.



Tau themselves have no free will, controlled by
the Ethereal caste.

And the Imperial Citizens are controlled by the Inquisition and being burned alive on a pyre. The Tau/Ethereal control is a matter of biology, not ideaology, its like calling ants evil because they are controlled by communal hive instinct.



Commander Farsight realized this and broke away, but he is now labeled a traitor (much like the heretic leader from Halo 2). Arrogant and manipulative, the Tau are no good guys.

Hes labeled as a traitor because he broke away and carved out his own little empire after his Ethereal was killed. He thinks his way of fighting the Orkz is better, tau military doctrine disagrees. And its quite possible (and inferred) that theres something not quite wholesome about that sword he carries around.)

Tau aren't good compared to what we strive for today, but for 40k their practically saints because they ask for you to surrender before shooting.



As you can see, there are no good races in the 40k universe, which is just perfect. The best part of the game is the dark, gothic, hopeless backdrop that everything is affected by. That doesn't mean, however, that there are no heroic individuals or individuals of redeeming value. The PDF soldiers who faced down Kracken when the Imperium abandoned them to save more important worlds, the Eldar Guardian who goes into battle to protect his kin and their race, the Space Marines who lay down their lives for the good of mankind (drugged up psychos or not, they kill things dead), and the list goes on.

The varying shades of gray make the game great, a player can look at the background and interpret as they want. They can lead vicious killers to assert their race or organization's dominance over a rival group or race or anything in the way or they can strive to protect innocents from the predation of their would-be destroyers.

There are certainly "better" races than others. Man kind is pretty much depicted as wholly evil in 40k while other races are more grey.

mistformsquirrel
17-12-2006, 23:01
I quite like the Imperium. Than again in most every game I play I enjoy the humans. I like playing the humans because they are always the underdogs and usually they are the least liked faction. I also think the fluff behind the Imperium is good. Yes it's opressive and yes their are perils of living there, however I'd take those perils rather than giving up my soul and have the chance of becoming some demons plaything.

I voted for the Demonhunters for my favorite army because to me they seem the most heroic. The Grey Knights resemble Knights of old to me. They fight the most horrible foes known to man and I know someone is going to say it's because they have to but I don't care.

Also to me the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus are tied with the Inquisitors of the Ordo Xenos for the title of least evil of the inquisitors.

My views of 40k are formed a lot by 2nd edition and novels I have read from the BL namely the Eisenhorn trilogy and the Grey Knights series.

Now really - why would we Witch Hunters be 'evil'? To survive - we cannot afford the luxury of trifling things like 'morality'.


<^.~>

Splagbot
17-12-2006, 23:14
Nobody is saying the Imperium is not the bad guys. All I was trying to point out is Eldar are not good guys.

Quoted for the truth!!!

Zorz Muaddieb
17-12-2006, 23:46
Despite the fact that GW based large parts of the Imperium on some of the worst and most evil parts of Humanity to date I do enjoy playing it in all its evil.

Then again I have a bit of all the armies for 40k....

I voted Marines but love playing my guard. Overall lately I tend to play non Imperial forces since most of the people I am playing with/against are playing Ultrasmurfs or Bloodies. So, I have more Imperial points all together than anything else and more than I could ever field on any table or floor I have seen. I do however play a bit of everything. Yes, I am conflicted with my army choices. ;) Also, my answer for new people as to which the good guys are in 40k is none since they are all a bit evil.

Yes, long winded answer for no reason. :-p

-Z

azimaith
17-12-2006, 23:47
Actually.. Would squats be considered "Good guys"?

I mean I always kind of thought of Ogryns as kind of kind heartedly oafish to those they are meant to protect, like a Lenny from Of Mice and Men.

MrLiy
18-12-2006, 00:24
From looking quickly on these threads I can see the following points of view although these are not exhaustive they are the ones that stand out for me.

Those who like the empire cause of the models and game. This is ok after all they have cool stuff.

Those who dont like it cause they dont like the mechanics or models, once again ok too more of a personal preference.

Then theres those who like the imperium for their harsh gritty storyline. I tend to like this point of view since I am a very big Hobbesian. It makes sense to me that in a universe where humanities existance is being threatned on all sides. People will follow those leaders that can ensure the continuous existance of the species. Even if this mean living under despotism. In this universe the imperium is the only form of government that can meet all the threats that could possibly cause humanity to go extinct. millions die so many billions can live.

The other point of view is from those that are basing their judgement of the imperium based on ideas of Western Democracy, idealism, and freedom. While I too rather live in a western democracy than the imperium. This has to do more with the fact that I live in a world where threats are not looming around every corner. (Although the threat of Iran, N. Korea, and Islamo-fascism seems very real to me, but I dont want to start a politics talk) Diplomacy, understanding, communication, and diversity only work if the person across the negotiation table believes in the same ideals. 40k would be the ultimate Hobbesian state of nature, where humans band together under a strong ruler to fight off all the many races that might threaten human existance.

I support the imperium, because without humanity would have been extinct along time ago, and in my book survival comes first before morality. Since theres no such thing as a moral human if all humans are dead.

Secondly on the idea of heroism within the imperium I would have to agree with. Since by performing extraordinary acts the imperiums heroes make sure that humanity lives to see another day. Anybody that performs acts of great valor to make sure that me and my family can live is a hero in my book. If a space marine kills 1000 eldar so that my town of 500 humans can live I will call him my hero, and declare him my older brother.

I am human not eldar, or tau, or nid, or ork, or necron, or traitor...The 40k world is about US vs THEM. Sorry if this point of view doesnt fit with the latest clap-trap about diversity being spoon fed down our throats.

Slaaneshi Slave
18-12-2006, 00:28
The US vs THEM? Its the Imperium, not the United States of America. :D

PaRaSiTe_X92
18-12-2006, 00:36
lol! (10 characters)

Captain Micha
18-12-2006, 00:41
Don't get me wrong I love the space marines. but they are not an army as far as I am concerned. would you send the Seals in alone? heck no. To me the Sm should be an elite choice to the Ig roster. It would be alot more balanced for one thing.

Anyway. Gimme the Ig. They are the real heroes of the Imperium. and gw is starting to acknowledge it finally. (so glad they smacked the bts in their place on armageddon in cities of death.) the bts took nimbosa away from the raven guard. and tried to take armageddon away from Yarrick and the Ig. Kudos to whomever realised the stupidity of the bts and theif fluff thunder stealing ways!

Yarrick is one of the many reaons the Ig is >>>> sm Cadia is another. Without Cadia, there is -no- Imperium.

NeonDante
18-12-2006, 02:21
I don't think the imperium is evil. It's just doing what it needs to do to survive. That said, even if you do view them as evil, the space marines and IG are still herioc in my mind. Sure, a guardsman may come from a world ruled by a tyrant, but he's still fighting to protect his world and his family.

pwrgmrguard
18-12-2006, 02:24
they should revive the Imperial Army, IG squads led by Space Marines. Other than that, the more pieplates the better. GO IG!!

Commisar Dincher
18-12-2006, 02:26
The imperium is awesome it gives you the most diversity, you can go from the geneticaly enhanced super soldeirs of the Adeptus Astartes to the jungle fighters of catachan,and it has the best fluff, the Horus heresy trilogy is a military scifi masterpeice.

But i do wish that games workshop would pay a little more attention to some of the alien races inpaticular the Orks. I play orks and an imperial gard army. They have had the same codex for how many years now and i watch as they come out with several New space marine chapters while i wait for a new ork codex. now im not saying i dont lik Space marines in fact im working on a Ultramarine army right now. What im saying is that even though i favour the imperian of man GW needs to update outdated codexes before it comes out with new stuff for armies that dont really need a new codex.

Finnbjorn
18-12-2006, 02:53
my shot gose for the Orks th i play Space Marines

just love the orks for there big mobs stuff at the way the moldes look just love them :chrome:

Hellebore
18-12-2006, 03:07
*continues normally*: Seriously, have you read yourself saying that? Because it sound a lot like Conspiracy Theory. Are you thinking that GW limits the non-Imperium armies just to annoy you, or because they think it doesn't make money?


Yes, and no. When one creates a fictional universe, one is responsible for everything in it and is in a real sense a 'god' of that world. GW started out with a well fleshed out human pov, and only provided more information about the other species over a protracted time throughout 1st ed.

My point has nothing to do with conspiracy, merely facts. When you create a world, you do what you want with it. So, they created the imperium and DECIDED to focus on it.

There is no law of the universe that all fictional universes created MUST focus on humans, GW merely decided that is how they wanted to do it. They could have quite easily chosen to make orks the main species (being as GW is the 'god' of 40k and can do whatever they want to the world they created), and thus we would get multiple ork books.



The Imperium has so many codices because a lot of people like to play as humans rather than puckered daemons or drooling aliens, but not everyone wants to play as Space Marines. Also, as mentioned earlier, the Imperium already had a lot of fighting forces in the fluff, so a lot of people wanted them represented on the tabletop.

The fact that Xenos/Traitor races often have one codex is because a) they're not so diverse in fluff ('Nids, 'Crons, Tau), or b) because this diversity can be represented in a single Codex (Eldar, Chaos). Also, it is difficult to introduce a new race/army because how would it fight? What would it's strengths/weaknesses be? Almost every tactic is covered by the existing races.


Here you are looking at the wrong end of the game. We can only play with miniatures and races GW created, and only in the variety they put out.

Look at it like this, the reason so many people play imperial armies has SOME basis in them being human, but it isn't the main one (otherwise no one would play an alien race). The main reason is the variety GW created. You can play humans and choose from 10 different flavours, or play orks and choose from 1.

The players never said give us human armies and we will play, they were GIVEN human army options, and showed their favour by playing them. If GW hadn't provided the diversity to begin with it probably wouldn't have happened. If instead there was one army list for humans, and 10 for orks, there would have been alot of people playing orks, because each 'flavour' would have attracted more people - more variety creates a bigger net with which to scoop more customers.


So my point still stands, the diversity or lack thereof in the species of 40k is all down to GW deciding not to make them diverse. There is absolutely nothing creatively speaking preventing the orks having 20 different flavours, but they decided not to write them that way.


The argument you used is pretty circular (elliptical maybe;) ) - the Imperium is diverse because the fluff says its diverse. And who wrote the fluff?

Hellebore

Sergeant Tanthius
18-12-2006, 03:36
I voted Grey Knights, because they have the coolest armour and they work in secret. I also like them because they are humans, just like MOST of us here...:D

Imperium, Chaos, Tau, Eldar, Orks, 'nids and Necrons are all as good and as bad as each other.

Imperium is the remnents of a proud and very idealistic culture, much like Tau is now. The Imperium went for ultimate truth, bartering and allying with whoever that will listen to them (Though they still killed who don't), to killing everything thats not them. Why? Because humanity has gone through lots. The Eldar are like this too. They became really careful and selfish because back during the time when they are not selfish, half of their empire got eaten.

Chaos is the physical form of all emotions. They will not exist if everybody were saints. So Chaos is no worse or better than anybody else in the Galaxy, they just don't hide it in their minds. Within everyone's mind there is an impulse for blood, death, desire and knowledge. It is the animalistic instinct that, apparently even after 38000 years, cannot be abandoned.

Tau pretend they are good, and what they say shows this perfectly. However, would a "good" guy kill just so he/she can get more land? No. Would he restrict what people think? No. A very decent person would not take more than what is his and leave everybody alone, unless they require assistance. Therefore Tau are not "good", since they try to unit everybody under the same idealistic government. They also have expansions of their empire because it is "good".

The Eldar didn't care much about anything anymore. They are dying and they know it. They want to save themselves, since they have little more power to save other things. As a result, they will kill to survive. That's why Armageddon 2 & 3 was against Humans not Eldar. In order to prevent, perhaps one small craftworld, from dying, They sent billions upon billions of humans into the Choppa, that's not including the stupidity of the Beauraecrats either. How many Eldar lives did they save? 1,000,000? perhaps? But how many humans have they killed? uncountable. Is that "good"? Wouldn't that be considered evil? We would hesitate before letting monkeys go extinct just so that one person can survive. The Eldar would not hesitate to destroy one planet of Humans so that one Eldar can survive. Are the Eldar evil then? No, they are not. They are selfish.

Orks are...animals. They are half way between intelligence and what we will consider a lower level. They are very much like dolphins in a way, smart enough to play and enjoy, but in a very brutal way. They are bad and they embrace it. Nothing wrong about it, but it does bring headaches to everybody else.

'Nids are orks, 'cept worse. They are slightly smarter in some ways, but a lot dumber in others. The invade just to eat, not to survive, but to eat. Nids can survive without being so numerous. They are not good or bad. They are smart bugs.

Necrons are the result of jealousy and greed. They eat not out of survival, expansion or protection. They eat to revenge. They are, under out ethics, the true evil.


The above is my opinion on the topic, and is not aimed at anyone or their preferences.

MrLiy
18-12-2006, 05:13
exactly Tanthius!

eat or be eaten!!

InquisitorNiels
18-12-2006, 05:48
(btw Parasite I think the Guard are even more insane when it comes to beliefs, remember they view the Emperor as a god:wtf: )


Ummmmm, do you forget that Christians think that Jesus is God? I dont see anything odd about this what so ever, fact is here on Earth were we live this kind of stuff happens.

As for me, I voted Which Hunters. Why? I dont know, something about them that is just totally cool in my eyes, Nuns with guns :p :evilgrin: But really in a world of heretics someone has to find and burn the witch! If I ever start another army it will most likely be the Sisters/Which Hunters. I like the models, I like the idea of them, but most of all I love the idea of Power Armour without them beeing Marines. I have a Night Lords army, I like Marines, but if I make a new army it has to be diffrent. I have really bad dice rolls so I need good armour or lots and lots of models! I would love a full IG army but way too many models to buy and paint. I can get a few IG units in a WH army and if need be built a real IG army from there!

About the lack of diversity of armys for non Imperium armies, facts are clear as someone already stated. 40k is based around the Imperium. They are the main character, all the others are there to help tell the story but they are all just support! Noone is stopping you from making your own alien race. You could go all out with rules, models the whole nine yards. Before you ask about a list, use one that is already made. If you want a race of Space Spiders make some models, some fluff and use a list that is fast. You want a race of Space Trolls use a ork list. You want a race of tiny little guys that fight by out numbering their opponents use a IG list with just a mass of basic troops.

Its a hobby have fun with it!

Baneboss
18-12-2006, 06:20
Tau pretend they are good, and what they say shows this perfectly. However, would a "good" guy kill just so he/she can get more land? No. Would he restrict what people think? No. A very decent person would not take more than what is his and leave everybody alone, unless they require assistance. Therefore Tau are not "good", since they try to unit everybody under the same idealistic government. They also have expansions of their empire because it is "good".

You forgot about something. Tau dont believe in benefit of a person but a whole community. If community has to benefit they have to put restrictions on a person.

It is some kind of Ethereals powers that keep Tau in check to work for benefit together.

Slaaneshi Slave
18-12-2006, 06:25
But who is keeping the Ethereals in check? :D

azimaith
18-12-2006, 08:33
Ummmmm, do you forget that Christians think that Jesus is God? I dont see anything odd about this what so ever, fact is here on Earth were we live this kind of stuff happens.

No, christians don't. Catholics do, Catholics are christians but not all christians are catholics.

This is why I've refrained from calling them good, and instead called them better.

The Tau are expansionistic, yes, but their expansion has freed the kroot from orc slavery and brough prosperity to many outlying Imperial fringe worlds, until of course the Inquisition gets wind of it and they burn the planet down and butcher everyone. The Imperium is expansionistic by outright geneocide. The Tau are expansionstic by a combination of politicking and force of arms.

The Eldar don't care anymore and who can blame them. Any time they've tried to help the Imperium (and thus often help themselves) they get heads back in boxes so to speak. That doesn't make them evil, it makes humans stupider and more ignorant.

Chaos I'd say has the *greatest* potential for good because it reflects the outside world. In essence the material plane destroyed the peace of the warp, not the other way around.

Theres alot of forgone conclusions like "Chaos=Bad" and that "Tau don't have any free will because they're enslaved by their ethereals." Having free will doesn't make you good, it makes you free. A person with free will can go out and flay small children alive because he decides he feels like it. The Ethereals focus the efforts of their people to the building up on their Empire and the spreading of their dogma. That doesn't make them evil, it makes them communal.

Splagbot
18-12-2006, 15:20
Who said the Tau where evil?

I'm not getting at you or anything, I just want to know so I can dissagree with him, I don't think the Tau are evil but I do think they are one of the more sinister races out there.

Can't agree with you as far as Chaos goes though, they are evil through and through, just look at their names, Tzeench, Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh (who I'm told has a particular taste for Eldar souls), they just sound evil.

azimaith
18-12-2006, 15:36
Who said the Tau where evil?

Read Tanithus post.



I'm not getting at you or anything, I just want to know so I can dissagree with him, I don't think the Tau are evil but I do think they are one of the more sinister races out there.

If tau are "Sinister" then what the hell are the necrons. Tau aren't sinister, their self-aggrandizing, arrogant, and naive, but their aren't sinister.



Can't agree with you as far as Chaos goes though, they are evil through and through, just look at their names, Tzeench, Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh (who I'm told has a particular taste for Eldar souls), they just sound evil.
Thats *very* scientific of you. Besides, first time I heard the name "Khorne" I laughed my ass off. (Probably because they said Corn instead of Khorne with the H actually used.)

Chaos isn't evil its misused and misunderstood, subject to stigmatization based on surface images, not on essence. Its as evil or good as the person using is.

lapis_lazuli
18-12-2006, 15:39
Erm... in reference to the OP, I am rather partial to Imperial Guard, but Witch Hunters appeal more to me for a skirmish-level game like 40k. What's not to love about some blinged-up Inquisitor leading a retinue of retainers and hired goons on adventures on strange worlds?

On the Imperium generally, I like the fluff firstly because it's human-centric. In all honesty, I'd still play 40k even if there were no alien races and it was just human factions fighting amongst themselves a la Dune or Firefly. I just find it a bit unconvincing when writers try and get inside the heads of hypothetical aliens.

Secondly, I like the diversity of the Imperium, with all kinds of references from history, mythology, literature, film etc. Every world can be different, and it gives a huge amount of freedom to players.

hiveminion
18-12-2006, 19:04
=hellebore;1154617]

There is no law of the universe that all fictional universes created MUST focus on humans, GW merely decided that is how they wanted to do it. They could have quite easily chosen to make orks the main species (being as GW is the 'god' of 40k and can do whatever they want to the world they created), and thus we would get multiple ork books.

However, as we, being human beings, identify ourselves best with other human beings, rather than, say, Orks, it is a logical decision for GW to focus such a big (in terms of fans) game on the human race.

I still think you are a bit paranoid. At least you sound like it. Don't get me wrong I don't want to upset you or anything, but it's just a game, mate. There are no villains behind it monitoring you with hidden cameras making sure you don't enjoy it as much as you would like.

Also, if you look at it, GW split the main fighting forces of 40k in three groups (roughly): Imperium, Xenos, and Traitors. The Imperium is represented by the Inquisition, the Space Marines and the Imperial Guard. That's 5 different codices, excluding the more specialised ones (Blood Angels, Catachans etc.).
The Traitors have two codices: Chaos Space Marines and the Lost and the Damned list. The former contains so much variety there's no real argument that it is not enough.
Finally, the Xenos, which according to you don't get enough attention, have 6 codices: Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons, and Tau, excluding such lists as Feral Orks, Speed Freeks and Kroot. That's more than the Imperium has. And don't get me started on variety, the possibilities are all in the codex, you just have to limit yourself in your choices, and specialize your army.
Yeah, sure WD/GW pays a lot of attention to Marines and stuff, but that's not to say the other races are neglected!



Here you are looking at the wrong end of the game. We can only play with miniatures and races GW created, and only in the variety they put out.

Look at it like this, the reason so many people play imperial armies has SOME basis in them being human, but it isn't the main one (otherwise no one would play an alien race). The main reason is the variety GW created. You can play humans and choose from 10 different flavours, or play orks and choose from 1.

Otherwise no one would play an alien race? I didn't say EVERYONE prefers humans! And I also didn't say people who do ONLY play humans! It's just a fact that some people like humans because they are themselves humans! Look at other games that pit humans versus aliens, DoW for example, all races featured there are played, yet the Imperium hasn't got the advantage of diversity there!



The players never said give us human armies and we will play, they were GIVEN human army options, and showed their favour by playing them. If GW hadn't provided the diversity to begin with it probably wouldn't have happened. If instead there was one army list for humans, and 10 for orks, there would have been alot of people playing orks, because each 'flavour' would have attracted more people - more variety creates a bigger net with which to scoop more customers.


GW started with humans so people could identify themselves with the game. If they had started with two totally alien races they would have to be introduced in detail so everyone knows who is who.
I can't believe you think Orks just have one flavour. Ever heard of Klanz? Speed Freeks? Shooty Orks? The Ork codex and added Chapter Approved material has made the Ork army list one that has probably the most unit choices in the game.



So my point still stands, the diversity or lack thereof in the species of 40k is all down to GW deciding not to make them diverse. There is absolutely nothing creatively speaking preventing the orks having 20 different flavours, but they decided not to write them that way.

Not creatively, no. But how would they be made interesting additions to the game? Is there a tactical nitch they can fill? Do we really *need* more Orks? Some people will say yes to that, but that's probably because they (like me) want ever more brand new material to play with. But it has to stop somewhere. You can't just drown the game with army lists, people wouldn't play them!
And if you look closely, and delve into the codices, with a little conversion work and careful unit selection, you can make more different armies than there are Orks in the 40k universe.



The argument you used is pretty circular (elliptical maybe;) ) - the Imperium is diverse because the fluff says its diverse. And who wrote the fluff?

Hellebore

GW, to make the limited range of models from Rogue Trader more interesting, and have some basis to build on.
Also the fact the variety is based on the fluff, is only logical. Why introduce shining new purple plasma shooting spiders when there are interesting forces already mentioned in the background, but not yet been made into armies? Why not do those first?

Please give me some *real* arguments to think about rather than narrowing your mind to see only what you want to see. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, it's just this whole debate makes me feel a bit uncertain. Do you really think GW is a dictatorial industry? Hell, they try to make your life more fun! (and make quite some money out of it, I might add...:( ).

Crassus
18-12-2006, 19:08
Seriously though, what do you mean by "what do you think of the Imperium?" Are you talking in the fluff, like its general structure and so on,


i'm talking about everything and anything
. if you like the models, the rules or/and the fluff just say what you think about it. say what you think is bad and good

Mechanicus
18-12-2006, 19:45
I like the Adeptus Mechanicus the most, but that's not an option, so the Imperial Guard it is for me... :p

hiveminion
18-12-2006, 20:05
=azimaith;1153872]No, I don't listen to what your saying. My computer doesn't read the posts on the forum to me outloud. I have to read them, the old fashoned way.

Funny...



Quotation marks show sarcasm. They essentially mean "Allegedly". Apostrophe's don't mean the same to me.

I'll keep that in mind next time I post...



Surrender to the tau, yes, there would be for the tau and imperium, after any dissenting factions are dealth with. To Eldar, possibly, they would get more mileage with non-aggression to the eldar than they would by their current path: aggravating them.

Yo, peace with Tau. True. Then the Chaos gribblies come and rend them limb from limb. Or some predatory Xenos race does it.


Fought for hundreds of billions of people, most of which live in squalor, so they could continue existing under a fascist regime of theocrats who prevent humanity from advancing into a more enlightened period. You don't seem to be catching on to how the Space Marines fight against horrors from beyond.

Chaos forms small cult in generic hive A. Plague zombies appear, marines go in and kill them and the cultists. Hurrah, all done right? No, now they go and kill the men, women, children, pets, imperial guardsmen who all lived through this. But don't worry, their souls are safe from chaos (which they apparently they achieve by casting their souls adrift in the warp to be rent apart by voracious warp entities.) Then they go out expunge all "taint" to the last man, woman and child burning purging them with their "blessed" promethium. And then they get to go home after cleansing themselves. Suprisingly no space marines go out and execute each other for all participating in the tainted zone. It must be because history tells us that space marines *NEVER* fall to chaos, Horus can vouch for that. Hypocrital, self-righteous, and intensely brutal. They're the people who stone the woman whose raped in the middle east but not the man who raped her.



You are saying Chaos is better than the Imperium. A painful road of mutation, slavery, being used as cannon fodder or sacrificial slaves is better than the chance to live a life as a human (OK so life as a human in 40k isn't that great but I never said that), with the chance of getting killed should you survive an unlikely Chaos attack? Which would you choose?
The amount of people that die because of the reason you mentioned is nothing compared to the amount of people that live because of it happening.
You fail to see how life in the Imperium (no Eldar/Necron!) is. There is no road to freedom or comfort. There is only a life you can live, a terrible one from our point of view. But it is a normal one for the ones who live it. Drastic measures must be taken to keep mankind alive. If billions must die at the hands of their guardians for this, then so be it. There is only one other option: death and damnation for every human being.
There can be no toleration.



The Space Marines fight the "horrors from beyond" like the Tau and Eldar for a corpse and to keep the status quo of a rotting carrion empire that is the Imperiums heart. Saying that space marines are heroic is like saying the SS officers who pulled Jews out of their home in the the 40's to be gassed en masse were heroic because the jews could fight back and they were an "impure" race.

If you are saying I'm a neo-nazi, mind what you're saying! Have you got any idea how this kind of insult can hurt people!:mad:
It is uncomparable! This is fiction, for *** sake! Think about what you're saying before you post it! :mad:

I am NO supporter of Hitler. I do NOT think the SS were heroic! The difference lies in the fact that in 40k it is a struggle for survival. In the 2nd World War it was about racial intolerance.

Damn, man!:mad:





The 40k perspective? What if I play eldar? Then the humans are usurpers of a greater empire, fueld by mindless hate to attack a race that had not even hurt them before.

I play necrons, humans are like bugs, mindless, ignorant, unwilling to better themselves, easily herded like cattle to the slaughter by their own hypocritcal weakness.

With 40k perspective I meant from an Imperial citizen's point of view.



Just because you fight a big scary monster doesn't mean your automatically good. Look at the followers of chaos? Immortality, freedom from fear of death, and infinite possibilities for advancement upward to greater power and ability if your willing to work for it are there. Whats there for humans who follow the emperor? Rotting in a hive city if your not born rich.

I'd advise reading the introduction to the imperium in the BGB. In many ways "falling to the horror of chaos" sounds alot more appealing that whats described for most of the people in the Imperium.


I read it. About a thousand times. Great stuff.
Now you are again viewing it from a modern day perspective...sigh...An Imperial citizen would never choose to turn to Chaos, especially if he knew everything we know. It is a life of pain, mutation and eternal damnation. Would you like it? Really? Then check your sanity.

And watch your mouth!:mad:

RampagingRavener
18-12-2006, 20:28
You are saying Chaos is better than the Imperium. A painful road of mutation, slavery, being used as cannon fodder or sacrificial slaves is better than the chance to live a life as a human (OK so life as a human in 40k isn't that great but I never said that), with the chance of getting killed should you survive an unlikely Chaos attack? Which would you choose?

For the record, there is no proof that this is what Chaos would do. Read Storm of Iron, much of the book is from a Chaos perspective. The main character, an Iron Warrior, talks about "uniting humanity under Chaos" as the only way the human race can survive the masses of Aliens attacking it.

Yes, you do get your insane, mutation-loving nutter Chaos. But many Chaos Marines still hold true to what Horus wanted, which was to make humanity stronger under Chaos. The weak may end up dying in the process. But just saying 'Chaos = Evil' is just as false as saying 'Imperium = Good'.

EDIT: And no-one is comparing anyone to a neo-nazi. Like it or not, azimaith's metaphor for how the Space Marines operate is pretty accurate, really.

hiveminion
18-12-2006, 20:33
For the record, there is no proof that this is what Chaos would do. Read Storm of Iron, much of the book is from a Chaos perspective. The main character, an Iron Warrior, talks about "uniting humanity under Chaos" as the only way the human race can survive the masses of Aliens attacking it.

Yes, you do get your insane, mutation-loving nutter Chaos. But many Chaos Marines still hold true to what Horus wanted, which was to make humanity stronger under Chaos. The weak may end up dying in the process. But just saying 'Chaos = Evil' is just as false as saying 'Imperium = Good'.

Hmmm. I don't read BL stuff, actually. I do get the feeling they contain a lot more fluff than is on, for instance, Wiki...

OK, so some Chaos admirers may have good intentions, but that's probably a minority. Or if it is a majority, they may be deluded. So they are more easily seduced by the Chaos Gods, you know, because they think they're actually good guys doing the right thing.

Yes, with GW fluff you can talk yourself out of everything!:)

RampagingRavener
18-12-2006, 20:36
Or if it is a majority, they may be deluded. So they are more easily seduced by the Chaos Gods, you know, because they think they're actually good guys doing the right thing.

Counterpoint. The Imperium may think it's going the right thing by slaughtering thousands of civilians if one of them catches the slightest whiff of Chaos. They're deluded and seduced by the Ecclisiarchy just as much as Chaos followers who think they're doing the right thing are deluded and seduced by their Gods.

hiveminion
18-12-2006, 20:38
EDIT: And no-one is comparing anyone to a neo-nazi. Like it or not, azimaith's metaphor for how the Space Marines operate is pretty accurate, really.

It was, but the context it was in was just wrong. He DID (maybe he didn't do it on purpose, but he DID) say I was saying the SS were heroic because I was saying Space Marines are, and they're comparable.

There is nothing that can justify such an insult.

hiveminion
18-12-2006, 20:42
Counterpoint. The Imperium may think it's going the right thing by slaughtering thousands of civilians if one of them catches the slightest whiff of Chaos. They're deluded and seduced by the Ecclisiarchy just as much as Chaos followers who think they're doing the right thing are deluded and seduced by their Gods.

BUT 40k history has recorded many instances were Chaos did indeed taint civilians/Imperial Guard were it was not weeded out.

OK so the Imperium recorded that but not trusting that we can start doubting whether anything in the 40k universe is real (wait a minute...:eyebrows: )

Gen.Steiner
18-12-2006, 21:43
It's not actually monotheistic - it's monode-istic. I think it's that...

A theistic god is one that is all loving, all powerfull and all knowing like the Christian god (which isn't possible...).

A de-istic god is one where it is not supreme like that. It may just be "supreme" in strength or knowledge, but it is not the ultimate being.

How dare you belittle the God-Emperor of Humanity, praise be unto Him! :mad:

In short, the Imperium is clearly monotheistic.


Sounds like the British Army! :p

Nah, lasguns work - they might not be powerful, but they work... :p

AngryAngel
18-12-2006, 23:13
Honestly ? I thinkt he imperium is frighteningly similar to world goverment evolution. I don't think the people in it are evil or wrong. I think the people in charge have lost the whole meaning of being a leader. Its what our own world could end up like if we give up too much of our freedoms and wants, just because people tell us its good for us.

If you give up your rights because your afraid, whos to say you'll ever see them back again ? Once you let someone think whats best for you, you've reduced yourself to a child being controlled by a parent. I think the primarchs should return, and the space marines should take the emperors realm back for what he wanted it to be. I think his dream was a noble one for mankind.

Long live the immortal emperor and his dream!!

Slaaneshi Slave
18-12-2006, 23:21
Even if the Marines all rebelled at once, there is only a million of them, thats not nearly enough to do ANYTHING in the 40k universe.

Nazguire
18-12-2006, 23:33
1. The are homocidal maniacs, supporting a totalitarian facist government bent on genocide on a galactic scale. Very heroic. They are couragous because they are mind wiped on a regular bases via hypnosis to ensure they stay loyal (which is better than they do with Imperial Guard, any Guard who survive a battle against Chaos are killed by the Inquisition), and so do not know they should be running away.

2. Lots of options, they could either have killed this guy, or even killed that guy over there!

They aren't mind wiped on regular bases. That background went 'bye bye' GW-style a while ago. They have been conditioned yes, and have been 'educated' via hypnosis during their induction to the Chapter, but mind-wiping them after every conflict or whatever? Nope, plus that's completely illogical. Hey, lets reduce our elite soldiers to drooling infants every, say, 6 months! :p

Tau Man
19-12-2006, 00:43
I choose the SM's because they, well, look more, less pathetic. one reason the imperial grd is better is because they can be overall more strong. I do not have any army in the imperium, but my brother has the SM's and my friend has IG, the IG is tougher but as I said they look more pathetic.

nightgant98c
19-12-2006, 04:37
Fluff wise I enjoy reading the stories about the imperials (if nothing else, stories about other races are few and far between), but game wise, I hate them. Alot.

Hellebore
19-12-2006, 05:21
Not creatively, no. But how would they be made interesting additions to the game? Is there a tactical nitch they can fill? Do we really *need* more Orks? Some people will say yes to that, but that's probably because they (like me) want ever more brand new material to play with. But it has to stop somewhere. You can't just drown the game with army lists, people wouldn't play them!
And if you look closely, and delve into the codices, with a little conversion work and careful unit selection, you can make more different armies than there are Orks in the 40k universe.


Ok, we are getting into more of a philosophy or psychology of the human condition here. Every race in 40k is based on SOME aspect of humanity, because it is the only experience we have. So creatively, every single background idea that went into making space marine chapters could just have easily be put into making ork clans without making them less alien, because aliens are still just aspects of the human psyche. You could have the clan of the wolf, the clan of the blooddrinkers, clan of the emos ;) etc.

They only chose to apply those specific ideas to human armies.

The arguement that you could "with conversion work" produce a variety of ork armies is exactly the same as saying "with conversion work and delving into the marine codex you can make Space wolves, Dark angels, Blood Angels and Black Templars." The only difference here is that GW decided to make codicies for those chapters, and not for the orks.






GW, to make the limited range of models from Rogue Trader more interesting, and have some basis to build on.
Also the fact the variety is based on the fluff, is only logical. Why introduce shining new purple plasma shooting spiders when there are interesting forces already mentioned in the background, but not yet been made into armies? Why not do those first?


I think you've missed my point (it's amazing how many pages I can fill with ramblings and STILL not convey my point:o ). They had to write the background before they released the miniatures, otherwise there would be no context with which to use them.

It was at that time they decided how they wanted the world to be arranged. Right at the beginning. They COULD have, at the beginning given the orks the aforementioned variety, and so having 6 different ork books would be fine because the 'variety is based on the fluff' and the fluff says orks=varied.




Please give me some *real* arguments to think about rather than narrowing your mind to see only what you want to see. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, it's just this whole debate makes me feel a bit uncertain. Do you really think GW is a dictatorial industry? Hell, they try to make your life more fun! (and make quite some money out of it, I might add...:( ).

I think you misunderstand my point - I'm not lambasting GW, decrying them etc.

I'm just attempting to look at their design methods in a methodical step by step logical manner.

I've done my own share of world building, and it seems like a pretty obvious design procedure to me.


Hellebore

InquisitorNiels
19-12-2006, 05:21
Yea they really need to increase the number of SM chapters out there! What they have really is not enough, even if they are really really good.

Light of the Emperor
19-12-2006, 05:38
From a background perspective, I love the Imperium. I think its the most fun to read about...all the darkness and secret organizations...all the symbols, uniforms, armies etc. Very cool indeed.
I only play imperial armies too...but not space marines.

The Imperium represents humanity so if you told a random person about the armies in the 40K world...chances are, at first glance, they will pick an imperial force because they can relate.

Badgertronic
19-12-2006, 06:05
i chose witch hunters because-
-can use imperial Guard
-arcoflagellants
-an exorsist and a leman russ team up!!

AngryAngel
19-12-2006, 07:31
True 1000 space marines at once isn't enough to do much. Though enough guys at wrong places, and the right time, could make all the diffrence. All they would need to do, seize some planets with surgical strikes. Coordinate with each other, and if they went that far. Why not push outside the constraints of the codex so they could have more troops ?

That was all done in fact to keep chaos influences out, but was not always the way. In times of great turmoil they might need to evolve their tactics to take back the imperium from its corrupt dictators. Would at least be cooler if they tried to make a diffrence. As opposed to just keep doin same o same o wouldn't it ?

As well who is to say systems wouldn't rally to the cause once it became known ? Like the systems that space marine home planets are on.

azimaith
19-12-2006, 13:16
Yo, peace with Tau. True. Then the Chaos gribblies come and rend them limb from limb. Or some predatory Xenos race does it.

Which is different from now *how*? Other than of course its not chaos gribblies AND tau rending them limb from limb.




You are saying Chaos is better than the Imperium. A painful road of mutation, slavery, being used as cannon fodder or sacrificial slaves is better than the chance to live a life as a human

A painful road to mutation? Chaos mutations, especially those under nurgle are there to release pain. Nurgles followers are known for knowing no grief, despair, or pain anymore. Being used as cannon fodder and sacrificial slaves? Uh, this is what the Imperium already does ot its own people *all* the time. Its motto is attrition. Theres no difference other than the freedom from the constraints of physics and mortality.



(OK so life as a human in 40k isn't that great but I never said that), with the chance of getting killed should you survive an unlikely Chaos attack? Which would you choose?

If I was an imperial citizen, chaos. And then I would work my ass off for upward mobility or die trying. Better than being stuck in the gutter permenantly as part of the Imperium.



The amount of people that die because of the reason you mentioned is nothing compared to the amount of people that live because of it happening.

Living is not the same as "being biologically alive" Where do you think these people go when they die? They are cast into the warp where there "doomed" to chaos anyhow. Why not get a head start and become more successful rather than living and suffering your entire life then dying and being at the bottom of the food chain.



You fail to see how life in the Imperium (no Eldar/Necron!) is.

The way life is in the Imperium is clearly described:
Most cities in the Imperium are dark, brooding places where countless subjects of the God-Emperor eke out a meagre living. Vast stinking factories filled with grinding machines cause the bones to shudder, while blakcened chinmneys vomit forth thick dark clouds of toxic smoke blocking out the sun itself. Every citizen lives a life of perpetual service, slaving away at back-breaking and mind-numbing tasks for twenty hours a day before dragging their exhausted, labour-wracked bodies beneath their benches to snatch a few hours of fitful sleep." Page 6, Bottom text box.

And the last line: "For most, the cities of the Imperium are merciless and cruel places, where all hope is lost and only mindless subservience remains."

Sounds cheery doesn't it.

Read the first line story text in the BGB: Third Paragraph:
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions, It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable..."

How am I failing to see how life is in the Imperium.



There is no road to freedom or comfort. There is only a life you can live, a terrible one from our point of view. But it is a normal one for the ones who live it.

So because its normal its fine when they could do better? Slavery was "normal" for black people in the US back before the end of the Civil war. But it was not the best they could do once emancipated.



Drastic measures must be taken to keep mankind alive. If billions must die at the hands of their guardians for this, then so be it. There is only one other option: death and damnation for every human being.
There can be no toleration.

Keep mankind alive? The Imperium of man is crumbling while chaos grows in strength. Drastic measures would be taking mankind into the warp to be free of the material realms strife and warfare. They don't take drastic measures, they take the same old methods to keep the status quo which isn't working.



If you are saying I'm a neo-nazi, mind what you're saying! Have you got any idea how this kind of insult can hurt people!:mad:

Unless you happen to be a space marine i'm not calling you a nazi. Your not a space marine are you? Read what I write before getting offended.



It is uncomparable! This is fiction, for *** sake! Think about what you're saying before you post it! :mad:

Why don't you think about what I wrote, especially the part the part that doesn't exist calling you a neo-nazi.



I am NO supporter of Hitler. I do NOT think the SS were heroic!

Yet space marines are even though they carry out the same purges and murders? I rest my case. You'd either have to concede you do believe the SS were heroic (which you obviously don't believe as you've pointed out) or that you do not know what a space marine is really and how they operate.



The difference lies in the fact that in 40k it is a struggle for survival. In the 2nd World War it was about racial intolerance.

No, its about racial intolerance. The Imperium is a giant genocide machine which declares the manifest destiny of man (akin to the birth right of the Germans when they claimed to be the "Master Race") is to purge out the impure humans and aliens for the master race: Man in the emperors image.



Damn, man!:mad:

Damn what? You completely invented the whole idea that I called you any name. The fact that you did is making *me* angry at you.



With 40k perspective I meant from an Imperial citizen's point of view.
An imperial citizens view is shaped by propaganda and indoctrination since childhood of the supremacy over all others as the master race of the universe. Once again, obviously based on Nazi germany.



I read it. About a thousand times. Great stuff.
Now you are again viewing it from a modern day perspective...sigh...An Imperial citizen would never choose to turn to Chaos, especially if he knew everything we know.

Yet they do, all the time. Thats why the inquisition exists.



It is a life of pain,

No its not. In instances of fluff on chaos they recieve *freedom* from pain and suffering.



mutation

A third arm can be quite handy. Oh it sure it may look ugly, but its not evil for looking ugly. Its like claiming an albino is evil because of a mutant pigment gene.



and eternal damnation.

Everyones already "damned" to it already. Damnation is relative, damnation to what? To being part of the fun little group we call the Imperium. Damnation doesn't mean anything, one mans damnation is one mans blessing. An evangelical christian once told me I was damned to hell because I didn't accept the "lord jesus christ". I silently believed he was damned to being an imbecile (thats just me though.) Eternal damnation such a false and silly charge its really not even worth considering.



Would you like it? Really? Then check your sanity.

Compared to what? Back breaking labour 20 hours a day? Toxic smog filled skies that ravaged the body, constant suffering, mindless servitude and the loss of all hope for anything better. Yeah I think i'd go for a chaos slanneshi cult before I went for "Back breaking tedium 20 hours a day"



And watch your mouth!:mad:
Watch my mouth about what exactly?
I didn't call you any names, I didn't accuse you of being a nazi, I simply brought up a simple accurate comparison of a SM to an SS officer and you took it as if I called you a hitler worshipping skinhead.


It was, but the context it was in was just wrong. He DID (maybe he didn't do it on purpose, but he DID) say I was saying the SS were heroic because I was saying Space Marines are, and they're comparable.

There is nothing that can justify such an insult.
This isn't an insult. Its designed to expose your flawed view of space marines for what they really are. Your obviously violent reaction to the mere mention of the Nazi SS tells me you did not truly understand what Space Marines do and how they operate.

For it to be an insult I'd actually have to accuse you of something, which I did not. Your sensitivity to the subject is noted, but the comparison is very accurate.


BUT 40k history has recorded many instances were Chaos did indeed taint civilians/Imperial Guard were it was not weeded out.
Let me get this straight. Because the Imperium only butchered 80% of people who were involved with chaos worship/fought chaos worship/were even in the vicinity it means its all right that the other 80% got slaughtered like animals?

Gen.Steiner
19-12-2006, 14:47
Thing is, chaps, that the Imperium needs to be this brutal in order to ensure the survival of the Human race.

What price does that come at?

I, for one, will happily, personally, kill babies and burn innocents by the hundred to ensure that the race survives. My tankers will fire on the corrupt and the pure alike to make sure of killing the corrupt. My infantry will exterminate whole hives if the Inquisition or the Ecclesiarchy demands it. My artillery will turn townships to ash and all to ensure that our descendants can continue to struggle on.

Ave Imperator! Vixit Imperator! Deus Imperator Vult!

Arhalien
19-12-2006, 14:58
Imperium: Xenophobic, intolerant, militaristic state. I really dislike the way that it believes that ruling the galaxy is mankind's 'destiny'. I'm also annoyed at the lengths to which they will go to achieve this aim, as Steiner has quite nicely summed up above.

Gen.Steiner
19-12-2006, 15:09
...ruling the galaxy is mankind's 'destiny'.

It's our divine and manifest destiny, actually, but you've got the general idea. ;)

Arhalien
19-12-2006, 15:11
Unfounded, outmoded superstition is what I call it but never mind :p

Gen.Steiner
19-12-2006, 15:14
Unfounded, outmoded superstition is what I call it

Bring me the excruciators...! :evilgrin:

azimaith
19-12-2006, 15:35
You can always count on Steiner to talk like a true imperial lap dog.

Down with the false emperor! Death to Terra!

Seriously though, if it were real, i'd totally go for Word Bearer Demagogue. :)

Steiner would make a fine comissar.

SwordsofChaos
19-12-2006, 15:48
I voted Daemonhunters because most of their models are awesome.

hiveminion
19-12-2006, 18:30
Unless you happen to be a space marine i'm not calling you a nazi. Your not a space marine are you? Read what I write before getting offended.


I did. Here are the exact words from your mouth:

"Saying that space marines are heroic is like saying the SS officers who pulled Jews out of their home in the the 40's to be gassed en masse were heroic because the jews could fight back and they were an "impure" race."

I said: "Space Marines are heroic."
You say: "That's like saying the SS officers were heroic."
Therefore what I said becomes: "SS officers were heroic."

Sure you didn't accuse me in a direct way, but in an indirect one. The fact you don't understand why I'm feeling insulted just proves my point that you don't think about what you post.



A third arm can be quite handy. Oh it sure it may look ugly, but its not evil for looking ugly. Its like claiming an albino is evil because of a mutant pigment gene.


And here you do it all over again.

As for your arguments. You're probably right. But I am too. The whole joy of discussing GW fluff is that you're nearly always right. That is because nothing is certain, everything can be interpreted differently. Discussing that kind of thing endlessly is fun. Untill someone comes and starts throwing around sensitive subjects, saying that people are saying things they don't say.

Quit shoving words in people's mouths, you obviously have no idea about what can safely be said and what is downright offensive:mad:

Lex Luthor
19-12-2006, 18:37
i find that the idea of the imperium is too much like the nazii army. it's kind of creepy. with that aside it's a great idea, but the number of space marine factions is driving me nuts.

hiveminion
19-12-2006, 18:41
Ok, we are getting into more of a philosophy or psychology of the human condition here. Every race in 40k is based on SOME aspect of humanity, because it is the only experience we have. So creatively, every single background idea that went into making space marine chapters could just have easily be put into making ork clans without making them less alien, because aliens are still just aspects of the human psyche. You could have the clan of the wolf, the clan of the blooddrinkers, clan of the emos ;) etc.

But I would think the human's physical appearance also matters. Btw I apologize for my offensive tone in my last post to you, I don't remember why I said that...:(



They only chose to apply those specific ideas to human armies.

The arguement that you could "with conversion work" produce a variety of ork armies is exactly the same as saying "with conversion work and delving into the marine codex you can make Space wolves, Dark angels, Blood Angels and Black Templars." The only difference here is that GW decided to make codicies for those chapters, and not for the orks.

But GW also decided to give Orks a plethora of unit choices, and some army specific lists to boot. That counts for about the same, I should think.
It's not the conversion work, it's the unit choices.




I think you've missed my point (it's amazing how many pages I can fill with ramblings and STILL not convey my point:o ). They had to write the background before they released the miniatures, otherwise there would be no context with which to use them.

It was at that time they decided how they wanted the world to be arranged. Right at the beginning. They COULD have, at the beginning given the orks the aforementioned variety, and so having 6 different ork books would be fine because the 'variety is based on the fluff' and the fluff says orks=varied.

I also have trouble conveying my point in a short but powerful way..
I think the fluff on the Inquisition, Adepta Sororitas and IG were written before they got miniatures (oh dear hope this is right...). Perhaps with the idea of later releasing them, but still. Also, as I tried to make clear before, the Xenos' variety is represented by different races instead of different armies of the same race. Still, Orks/Eldar, even Tyranids and Tau (I believe) have a lot of variety included in the list, allowing you to represent different Craftworlds/Hive Fleets/Klanz without the need of another codex.




I think you misunderstand my point - I'm not lambasting GW, decrying them etc.

I'm just attempting to look at their design methods in a methodical step by step logical manner.

I've done my own share of world building, and it seems like a pretty obvious design procedure to me.


Hellebore

Of course, I understand. I'm looking at it from a critical point of view though. I was a bit confused by the way you wrote your posts, it seemed to me you were a bit paranoid:o

azimaith
19-12-2006, 18:47
I did. Here are the exact words from your mouth:

"Saying that space marines are heroic is like saying the SS officers who pulled Jews out of their home in the the 40's to be gassed en masse were heroic because the jews could fight back and they were an "impure" race."

I said: "Space Marines are heroic."
You say: "That's like saying the SS officers were heroic."
Therefore what I said becomes: "SS officers were heroic."

No, therefore it becomes: "Well I guess I didn't truly understand space marines because I don't think SS officers were heroic and I didn't know they were so similar."



Sure you didn't accuse me in a direct way, but in an indirect one. The fact you don't understand why I'm feeling insulted just proves my point that you don't think about what you post.

I certainly do, but I expect other forumites to not see insult where there isn't one. I've used this kind of comparison hundreds of times and your the only person I've ever seen been insulted by it.

Its there to prove your point as a factual fallacy, or, if you say "Yes I think SS officers are heroic" to discredit your ability to tell what heroism is.

Theres nothing in there that remotely implies you think the SS is heroic unless your thinking under the pretense what you say can not possibly be wrong. (In which case it would make the above lines true.) I assume you are not working under such a bizzarre pretense as you are actually willing to discuss it rather than hurl insults and personal attacks so I think your reading something there thats not there.



And here you do it all over again.

Are you disagreeing that judging whats evil and whats not soley based on visual appearance is flawed?

Its discrediting your point saying that your basing your notion on whats good and evil on how something looks, rather than how it acts. Unless your under the pretense you are always right and can not possibly be wrong this is simply a point you can concede and say: "Yeah I guess its not accurate to claim chaos is evil because it gives you an ugly tentacle. But I think chaos is evil because I read in fluff X the tentacles are given to worshippers only when they perform bloody sacrifices of civillians!" (The last parts not true.)



As for your arguments. You're probably right. But I am too. The whole joy of discussing GW fluff is that you're nearly always right. That is because nothing is certain, everything can be interpreted differently. Discussing that kind of thing endlessly is fun.

Well actually its not quite so happy and agreeable. GW fluff isn't something everyone is right on. If I say necrons are a race of pink rabbits I am wrong. They aren't. If you say space marines are not the enforcers of a facist totalitarian state then you are wrong. We can both be right and wrong on different issues, but only in fluff thats contradictory can both be right. The real gray zone is that one person can construe a totalitarian facist state as being evil, and another can construe it as being the last hope of mankind, thus good.



Untill someone comes and starts throwing around sensitive subjects, saying that people are saying things they don't say.

Quit shoving words in people's mouths, you obviously have no idea about what can safely be said and what is downright offensive:mad:
Are you attempting to flame bait me? I didn't put words in your mouth at all. Point out a single line in my previous posts where I went out and said: "Hive mind thinks nazi SS officers are heroic!" You won't find one because none exist.

The way to look at it is like this:

I said: "Space Marines are heroic.
You say: "That's like saying the SS officers were heroic.
So you think: "Well I don't think SS officers are heroic, and since there actions are apparently (according to other sources) very very similar, maybe space marines *aren't* heroic because I don't think SS officers are heroic."
Theres nothing wrong with being wrong and admitting it, I do it alot.

What I don't do is this:

I said: "Space Marines are heroic.
You say: "That's like saying the SS officers were heroic.
I don't think SS officers are heroic but I can't possibly be wrong about what space marines actually are thus he must be calling me a nazi lover!"

I'm not trying to flame bait you, but your taking common debate tactics like personal attacks rather than what they're meant to be, ways to disprove points by comparison.

hiveminion
19-12-2006, 19:17
No, therefore it becomes: "Well I guess I didn't truly understand space marines because I don't think SS officers were heroic and I didn't know they were so similar."


In your mind, because you know what you mean. I just have the words you post. I am not going to try to prove you offended me anymore, because the fact I was should ring a bell.



Its there to prove your point as a factual fallacy, or, if you say "Yes I think SS officers are heroic" to discredit your ability to tell what heroism is.

How can you say my point is a factual fallacy when it's obviously an opinion? You read the fluff, and think: "You know, actually, the Imperium is bad" and that's fine.
However, I read the fluff and think: "You know, all these evil things the Imperium does, if they don't do that they're screwed" and that should be fine, too.



Theres nothing in there that remotely implies you think the SS is heroic unless your thinking under the pretense what you say can not possibly be wrong. (In which case it would make the above lines true.) I assume you are not working under such a bizzarre pretense as you are actually willing to discuss it rather than hurl insults and personal attacks so I think your reading something there thats not there.

On the contrary, what you're saying is under the pretence that you can't possibly be wrong, namely that the Space Marines and the nazi's are comparable, which they are not, and I'm not going to explain that again, as it just doesn't penetrate your skull.



Are you disagreeing that judging whats evil and whats not based on visual appearance is flawed?

No, I'm disagreeing with the fact that a) albino's are in the same league as Nurgle mutants, and b) that you force me once more to defend my morality, yet not change my opinion. You really should stop comparing 40k things with the real world, as you don't know in what context to put it in. You're like, connstantly saying: "So you think Space Marines are heroic? Do you? Well that's like saying SS officers are heroic. You're not a nazi, are you?"



Its discrediting your point saying that your basing your notion on whats good and evil on how something looks, rather than how it acts. Unless your under the pretense you are always right and can not possibly be wrong this is simply a point you can concede and say: "Yeah I guess its not accurate to claim chaos is evil because it gives you an ugly tentacle."

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' here. We're discussing a part of a fictional universe that has deliberately been left obscure so people could have differing opinions about it. There is no right or wrong "unless you're saying there is no freedom of speech" (sarcasm).



Well actually its not quite so happy and agreeable. GW fluff isn't something everyone is right on. If I say necrons are a race of pink rabbits I am wrong. They aren't. If you say space marines are not the enforcers of a facist totalitarian state then you are wrong. We can both be right and wrong on different issues, but only in fluff thats contradictory can both be right. The real gray zone is that one person can construe a totalitarian facist state as being evil, and another can construe it as being the last hope of mankind, thus good.

I believe I said something along the lines of "ALMOST everything is debatable", not EVERYTHING. This is about the gazillionth time I've seen you ignoring phrases so that you're right about something. It's also the gazillionth time you're pretending you can't think because I have to literally explain to you something everyone understands. Of course saying Necrons are pink rabbits is wrong.



Are you attempting to flame bait me? I didn't put words in your mouth at all. Point out a single line in my previous posts where I went out and said: "Hive mind thinks nazi SS officers are heroic!" You won't find one because none exist.

I already did. And I'm not 'flame baiting' you, whatever that is (NO! I don't want to know!). I'm expressing my indignation that was caused by your post, in an attempt to make it clear to you never to make such a mistake again. Obviously, that's futile...



The way to look at it is like this:

So you think: "Well I don't think SS officers are heroic, and since there actions are apparently (according to other sources) very very similar, maybe space marines *aren't* heroic because I don't think SS officers are heroic."
Theres nothing wrong with being wrong and admitting it, I do it alot.

With the possible exception of this ENTIRE thread...As for the 'being wrong' thing...see above.



What I don't do is this:

I don't think SS officers are heroic but I can't possibly be wrong about what space marines actually are thus he must be calling me a nazi lover!"

I'm not trying to flame bait you, but your taking common debate tactics like personal attacks rather than what they're meant to be, ways to disprove points by comparison.


Well trust me I'm top of my class when it comes to debating, and I can take some beating, but I can't accept this. This was no longer a personal attack. It was a personal offence. You're forcing people to accept they're wrong or admit they're a racist/nazi/whatever. Both were wrong in this case, thus your personal attack was altogether wrong (btw a personal attack is noted as being a fallacy, therefore never a real argument.

I ask you no longer to continue on this matter, we've both said what we wanted to and we just can't reach an agreement. This whole thing is driving this discussion off-topic and may lead to the closing of the thread.

SwordsofChaos
19-12-2006, 19:43
I think this thread got kinda of course, it was supposed to be about what you think about the imperium, not long discussions about the similiarities between a fictional empire and the nazis...

Duhgame
19-12-2006, 20:29
I voted for IG because everyone plays SM (including me) and I like the tons of guys I use (I would have voted for DH, but thye are allied to my IG so they are a technicality, oh well.)

Lostanddamned
19-12-2006, 21:14
What Do I Think Of The Glorious Imperium Of Man, Shining Beacon Of Hope In A Godless And War Ravaged Galaxy?

Well...

I hate them, they are grubby, dirty space nazis with less tolerance and more genocide on a wider scale (obviously - Hundreds of Millions of Planets as opposed to one continent)

But as an idea they are bloody Fantastic! every sci-fi universe needs a nazi analogue (normally an Empire or Imperium or whatever...)

Grand Warlord
19-12-2006, 21:29
I quite like it but I think someone should kick the Machine God in the backside and work on some new tech...

azimaith
19-12-2006, 21:40
In your mind, because you know what you mean. I just have the words you post. I am not going to try to prove you offended me anymore, because the fact I was should ring a bell.

No I don't know what you mean. I do not understand why you drew that conclusion. If I said: "The emperor was born of giant squirrels." and you said
"No, he was actually born by the actions of earths shamans."
I would think: Well maybe i'm wrong. Not: "OMG Are you calling me a liar!, Don't call me a liar!"
To me this is how you appeared to react.




How can you say my point is a factual fallacy when it's obviously an opinion? You read the fluff, and think: "You know, actually, the Imperium is bad" and that's fine.
However, I read the fluff and think: "You know, all these evil things the Imperium does, if they don't do that they're screwed" and that should be fine, too.
It was a factual fallacy because when I described two very similar things in terms of job description, Space marines and SS, one was heroic and the other wasn't. Its either one of the other if the two are indeed linked (and fluff says they are.)

You say they'd be screwed if they didn't, I say, prove it. Prove that chaos destroys humans rather than simply changing them, how they become worse rather than better off. Debating with opinions is pointless as it gets a 2 line exchange. I'm not interested in your opinion as much as i'm interested in how you came ot that opinion, because it allows me to understand how someone else thinks rather than simply what they think. That allows greater understanding of why their opinion is so and thus steels or weakens your own idea on the matter.




On the contrary, what you're saying is under the pretence that you can't possibly be wrong, namely that the Space Marines and the nazi's are comparable, which they are not, and I'm not going to explain that again, as it just doesn't penetrate your skull.

Well i'm not the one being offended here so what my pretense is doesn't matter. I've got fluff sources that show space marines, describe space marines, in acts just like the Nazi SS and that describe that as their life.



No, I'm disagreeing with the fact that a) albino's are in the same league as Nurgle mutants,

One extra arm, no pigment, whats the difference in whats evil and whats not. They're both just physical effects.



and b) that you force me once more to defend my morality, yet not change my opinion.

You shouldn't have to defend your morality if you were right on the matter. It would have been stead fast. Instead you included physical mutation in what makes chaos evil. So I pointed out a physical mutation that exists in real life and asked if that was evil as well. You can't have it both ways.



You really should stop comparing 40k things with the real world, as you don't know in what context to put it in. You're like, connstantly saying: "So you think Space Marines are heroic? Do you? Well that's like saying SS officers are heroic. You're not a nazi, are you?"
Exaggerate much? You act as if I called you a nazi you rather than simply showing you a comparison to illustrate why the logic was flawed. I certainly never said: "Your not a nazi, are you" in context of the comparison.



There is no 'right' or 'wrong' here. We're discussing a part of a fictional universe that has deliberately been left obscure so people could have differing opinions about it. There is no right or wrong "unless you're saying there is no freedom of speech" (sarcasm).

The existence of right and wrong most certainly doesn't interefere iwth the freedom of speech. If I say the sky is purple I can say it as much as I want, but it still makes me wrong. As for wrong, yes there is right and wrong here. Lets face it, if mutation is one thing that makes chaos evil (along with "a life of pain and damnation") then how can you claim that other mutations aren't bad at the same time, since mutation is bad (as its part of the 3 things listed that makes chaos evil)


I believe I said something along the lines of "ALMOST everything is debatable", not EVERYTHING. This is about the gazillionth time I've seen you ignoring phrases so that you're right about something. It's also the gazillionth time you're pretending you can't think because I have to literally explain to you something everyone understands. Of course saying Necrons are pink rabbits is wrong.

I'm not conciously ignoring anything, I may miss words in my skims of our long posts that significantly change the meaning of the post. If I do I apologize, its not my intent to spread intellectual dishonesty. Just tell me what I did and quote it and I will recant what i've said in err.




I already did. And I'm not 'flame baiting' you, whatever that is (NO! I don't want to know!).

I'm sorry but the line you pointed out does not say: "Hey Hiveminon thinks Nazi SS officers are heroic!"

It says:
Saying that space marines are heroic is like saying the SS officers who pulled Jews out of their home in the the 40's to be gassed en masse were heroic because the jews could fight back and they were an "impure" race.
Which is not the same thing. One is flaming and a lie, the other is a comparison used to point out flawed logic.



I'm expressing my indignation that was caused by your post, in an attempt to make it clear to you never to make such a mistake again. Obviously, that's futile...

You caused your indignation by reading inference into the post that wasn't there. I never said you thought nazis were heroic, I merely pointed out that space marines are very similar to the Nazi SS so how can one be heroic yet the other one not.



With the possible exception of this ENTIRE thread...As for the 'being wrong' thing...see above.
I haven't done anything wrong in this thread except for the pull out posts way too long for the sake of discussion. Your now claiming i'm completely wrong in this thread and just above this a few quotes up you claimed in debating fluff there is practically no right or wrong (with exceptions of course).




Well trust me I'm top of my class when it comes to debating, and I can take some beating, but I can't accept this.

No offense, but how can that be if you have such a thin skin. This is a very common tactic.



This was no longer a personal attack.

It was never a personal attack until you made it into one without my help Hive.



It was a personal offence. You're forcing people to accept they're wrong or admit they're a racist/nazi/whatever.

No, I am not.

What I am forcing you to do is to either admit your wrong or find counter evidence to prove my source is wrong. Your seeing 2 options in a 3 option argument. 1: You can admit your wrong. 2: You can admit your racist/nazi/whatever which doesn't actually have any bearing on this case other thant too undermine your credibility of knowing what a word like heroic means, or 3, and this is the one I was hoping you'd pick: Saying: No, Space marines aren't like the nazi SS, its a flawed comparison because of fluff piece XYZ.



Both were wrong in this case, thus your personal attack was altogether wrong (btw a personal attack is noted as being a fallacy, therefore never a real argument.

There was no personal attacks here.



I ask you no longer to continue on this matter, we've both said what we wanted to and we just can't reach an agreement. This whole thing is driving this discussion off-topic and may lead to the closing of the thread.
I'm fine with that, I'd hoped you'd take the road of discussion rather indignation at percieved attacks and simply presented counter-evidence to prove I was wrong that SM were like nazi SS. But I guess we can't get everything.

Yorkiebar
19-12-2006, 22:37
Whew, talk about long posts! I agree with azimaith that the Imperium is very Nazi-ish in its approach, but in my opinion Inquisitors and planetary defence forces are much closer to the SS than Space Marines.

As for the albino thing, I think it's safe to say that albinoism is a natural mutation and not related to Chaos influence. The Inquisition might not see it in that light though, I can easily see them burning albino children as 'daemonic'.

Crassus
19-12-2006, 22:45
I like the Adeptus Mechanicus the most, but that's not an option, so the Imperial Guard it is for me... :p


does any one else like the adeptus mechanicus?

(ahh... the good old c'tan worshipping adeptus mechanicus)

azimaith
19-12-2006, 22:46
Whew, talk about long posts! I agree with azimaith that the Imperium is very Nazi-ish in its approach, but in my opinion inquisitors and planetary defence forces are much closer to the SS than Apace Marines.

Well I always figured the Inquisitors as the gestapo more or less. But the space marines as enforcers on their own. The Inquisitors would be the ones who take care of the cities, but the space marines are the ones who go out into the country side.



As for the albino thing, I think it's safe to say that albinoism is a natural mutation and not related to Chaos influence. The Inquisition might not see it in that light though, I can easily see them burning albino children as 'daemonic'.
Well my main problem with the whole natural/chaos thing is that makes the assumption that chaos is innately evil, which we have no proof of. The warp is merely a reflection of the material universe (and it was quite placid until the War in Heaven).

Now I know the the imperium most definately stands with innate evil taint, yet their emperor himself draws from its powers and it makes him their god. That would make the emperor himself, the father of man kind evil by extension (because he channels evil energies.) I always figured the whole point of the warp is its so insanely neutral that hard to battle against.

I think the evil warp idea is analagous to standing over a giant meatgrinder. If you jump in its going to tear you to bits and spit you out. Not really an attractive bid.

I prefer to look at it as shark infested sunken treasure ship. You can dive on in and you may be fine, or something might come by and bite you in half. But if you are fine you can use that treasure you recover to selfish or noble means. I wouldn't go as far as to say the warp is *innately* good, but I think its not evil by nature. Though it may be swimming with predatory and sometimes evil entities.


does any one else like the adeptus mechanicus?

(ahh... the good old c'tan worshipping adeptus mechanicus)
I like the Ad Mech alot, they're pretty shady and I kind of dig their rather impressive power over the Imperiums more... fanatical divisions. They're not quite kosher on the emperor worship and the ecclisiarchy kind of knows it, but they can't really tie them to stakes and burn them... yet.

If only they had an army list.

Crassus
19-12-2006, 22:50
Whew, talk about long posts! I agree with azimaith that the Imperium is very Nazi-ish in its approach, but in my opinion Inquisitors and planetary defence forces are much closer to the SS than Space Marines.

yeah i agree but don't forget about the commisars who will shoot their own soldiers on sight if they run, which i think is quite dumb because what if a tank comes up to you eh? you either run or get run over (if your a basic guardsman that is) it's a bit like WW I and shell shock. soldiers got executed by firing squads all because they ran away from artillery bombardment

azimaith
19-12-2006, 22:57
Well the comissars are most definately straight out of Stalinist USSR. Its also why the fluff generally describes them as having alot of "accidents" :).

As for dumb, I figure it really depends what you need in battle, whether its waves of your own troops dying in machine gun fire till they run out of ammo or can flank or just keeping people more afraid of you than the enemy so they won't desert.

Its not necessarily dumb, but it could certainly be see as evil.

Crassus
19-12-2006, 22:57
Now I know the the imperium most definately stands with innate evil taint, yet their emperor himself draws from its powers and it makes him their god. That would make the emperor himself, the father of man kind evil by extension (because he channels evil energies.) I always figured the whole point of the warp is its so insanely neutral that hard to battle against.

people will argue about either that you have to fight fire with fire or that parts of the warp has good aspects (which it doesn't of course). if inquisitors hated the warp so much then why do they allie them selves with grey knights who are potent psykers in some ways it is odd that the imperium will kill entire towns because one baby was psychic (this is because a taint may spread) yet still use it in their armies. it doesn't make sense

azimaith
19-12-2006, 23:04
Its pretty much just: "The emperors an exception because hes the emperor."

I think signs point to the warp itself as being pretty much neutral; which is why its used for "good" and "evil" purposes.

AngryAngel
20-12-2006, 05:16
You know ,quick thing though..its said how nazi like the imperium is and they kill and purge any xenos scum they run across. What exactly do the xeons do to not earn it ?

The eldar lie, steal and stab ya in the back as soon as look at the imperium any chance they get.

The orks just wanna kill the hell out of mankind.

The Tau say its all for the greater good, but they leave out the Tau themselves get all the good, and your still following the will of their leaders without question. Real free thinking there. As well they also sign treaties, then invade planets they swore they'd leave alone. Foul, low creatures indeed.

Chaos just wants there to be all death, degradation and madness.

The Eldar have wicked evil cousins who raid, pillage, and slay all they can for pretty much no reason at all. Except that they love it.

'Nids just wanna eat and devour everything.

The necrons wanna enslave and conquer everyone.

How many times should the hard working citizens of the imperium be attacked ? How many times should we trust these honorless curs ? How many broken promises, and kicks in the balls does it take before you start swinging first ?

They earned what they get in foul deeds and trickery. Now that to me, shows the Xenos getting their just deserts. The victims of nazis never did anything to earn the hate they had sent their way. The other races in the galaxy of 40k are far from innocent.

May they find peace in the flames of purification. In the emperors name.

chromedog
20-12-2006, 06:34
The Imperium of man is a corrupt body, no doubt, as it is composed of humans, who by their very nature are flawed. Still Heroism does exist. It is all dependant upon point-of-view.

Everything is skewed in the fluff towards the Imperium, as hey are the ones compiling this knowledge. You don't see them doing the fluffy, namby-pamby-touchy-feely "well, maybe they are only defending themselves from our untoward hostilities" because that would be admitting that they are in the wrong. All combatants have 'right' on their side (from their pov), and have their 'invisible friend' on side to prove they are right. Doesn't necessarily follow that they aren't all wrong.

Lighten up, people. It's JUST A GAME.

insectum7
20-12-2006, 07:55
Word chromedog,

The Imperium is pretty open to interpretation. Some planets and factions are akin to the worst of humanity, and some are quite ideal. Big galaxy, many different ways to run your own little section of it.

None of the alien races are inherently any better. Eldar had their chance at galactic domination and messed up pretty bad. Tau are outwardly pleasant, but are also not the nicest of races. Humans are remarkably human, sometimes real good, sometimes real bad.

Humans almost messed up the galaxy horribly with the horus heresy, but they have been fighting that history ever since and doing pretty well. It's not like humanity accidentaly created a Chaos god or anything...

bram kuijpers
20-12-2006, 08:06
danm i like the imperium alot cause i like order and dont like half naked
cultist man. though half naked women would be nice to bad their mutated

anyway imperial gaurd is my favo armie got a cadian and a catachan force
on the shelf (next to fantasy orcs)

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 11:56
Let's settle the "TEH IMPEEREUM IS TEH NAZIS" argument thusly:

No, it's not.

It's far, far worse than the National Socialists could ever dream of being. :)

Dachau? Pssh! Look at St Josmane's Hope!
Malmedy? Pssh! Look at the results of the 1st War for Armageddon!
Stalingrad? Pssh! Look at Vervunhive!
Final Solution? Pah, they never even finished the job!

I mean, come on, the Nazis took prisoners and kept them alive - the Imperium doesn't even do that! They used slave labour - the Imperium doesn't need to, it's got citizens it can squeeze instead (why use a Traitor or an Ork when you can have a man willingly work himself to death? Saves money, time, and an overseer).

No, gentlemen, the Imperium is far stronger, far more powerful, and has the will to power that the Nazis lacked. Truly the human race has earnt its manifest destiny of ruling the galaxy! Earnt it in blood, and pain, and death, and suffering - and all of that in the pursuit of the most awe-inspiring of goals: a peaceful galaxy; a human galaxy!

That settle it? :rolleyes:

PS:


Steiner would make a fine comissar.

Why thank you. :D

azimaith
20-12-2006, 12:20
You know ,quick thing though..its said how nazi like the imperium is and they kill and purge any xenos scum they run across. What exactly do the xeons do to not earn it ?

The imperium was attacking aliens ever since the emperor was born. Hes a human supremacist who believes its mankinds manifest destiny to rule the galaxy, thus goes on genocidal campaigns. They exterminate many alien races who don't even attack them, just look at xenology, the hrud, for example.



The eldar lie, steal and stab ya in the back as soon as look at the imperium any chance they get.

The eldar don't go out of their way to stab the Imperium in the back.
Also they warned the emperor of the horus heresy before it started and warned them about the necrons. They were attacked by the Imperium first in the alien wars.



The orks just wanna kill the hell out of mankind.

No one says the Orkz won't attack first.



The Tau say its all for the greater good, but they leave out the Tau themselves get all the good, and your still following the will of their leaders without question. Real free thinking there. As well they also sign treaties, then invade planets they swore they'd leave alone. Foul, low creatures indeed.

Thats not true. They liberated the kroot from ork enslavement and they are full citizens of the Tau empire. The Imperium attacks planets all the time with no provocation. They attacked the Tau first as well.



Chaos just wants there to be all death, degradation and madness.

Not true. Some parts of chaos are just totally insane, but many want to unite humanity under chaos and take it to the warp to be free of realspace's trouble. Others believe chaos is the best way to battle against the universes aliens.



The Eldar have wicked evil cousins who raid, pillage, and slay all they can for pretty much no reason at all. Except that they love it.

'Nids just wanna eat and devour everything.

The necrons wanna enslave and conquer everyone.

Agreed, though the Imperium wants to commit galactic genocide.



How many times should the hard working citizens of the imperium be attacked ? How many times should we trust these honorless curs ? How many broken promises, and kicks in the balls does it take before you start swinging first ?

They*did* start swinging first. The Imperium took initiative to attack alien races before they even attacked them.



They earned what they get in foul deeds and trickery. Now that to me, shows the Xenos getting their just deserts. The victims of nazis never did anything to earn the hate they had sent their way. The other races in the galaxy of 40k are far from innocent.

May they find peace in the flames of purification. In the emperors name.
See above, imperium attacks first, just like Han Solo.


Word chromedog,

The Imperium is pretty open to interpretation. Some planets and factions are akin to the worst of humanity, and some are quite ideal. Big galaxy, many different ways to run your own little section of it.

None of the alien races are inherently any better.

This is not true.



Eldar had their chance at galactic domination and messed up pretty bad.

And so this makes them bad as an empire whose only goal is the genocide of all other races in the galaxy?



Tau are outwardly pleasant, but are also not the nicest of races.

But the tau aren't an empire bent on galactic genocide either.



Humans are remarkably human, sometimes real good, sometimes real bad.

Humans almost messed up the galaxy horribly with the horus heresy, but they have been fighting that history ever since and doing pretty well. It's not like humanity accidentaly created a Chaos god or anything...
What about the Emperor? Hes in the warp and his line of thought is genocide because humans are superior. Should he ever manifest like Khorne or Slannesh he'd certainly be as chaos god like as anyone else.

RampagingRavener
20-12-2006, 13:43
The Eldar have wicked evil cousins who raid, pillage, and slay all they can for pretty much no reason at all. Except that they love it.

Except that if they didn't capture slaves to distract Slannesh and replenish the effects of Slanny draining their souls, they'd die. Yes, they do enjoy their murderous antics, but it's not purely because of that. It's for survival.


'Nids just wanna eat and devour everything.

Is a lion evil for hunting a gazelle to feed itself? If not, why should the Tyranids be evil for hunting other races to feed itself?

Just a couple of points to think about, azimaith pretty much covered everything else. Not all chaos is "BLARG KILL BURN EVERYTHING", quite a lot of it honestly belives that humanity will be stronger under Chaos than the Emperor.

hiveminion
20-12-2006, 15:26
I agree that the Imperium is evil. They slaughter innocent humans after Chaos incursions, they believe every other race is evil and that humanity is destined to rule the galaxy. So that makes them evil...from our point of view.

So now set yourself in the High Lord's seats (yes all of them). You are now in the 41st millenium. You are ruling a galaxy-spanning Imperium that is crumbling under constant attack from numberless enemies. That this is all your predecessor's fault doesn't matter because that won't change the situation. Your only goal is the continued survival of mankind as a whole (and, of course, yourself).

So how are you going to do that?

Side with a Xenos race? Only Tau will accept that offer, and they will want to be in charge. That weakens your Imperium as the change in power will take a *long* time and it'll weaken your men's resolve. They will lose faith in you because they have been brainwashed for centuries that all Xenos species are evil. The Space Marines will try to overthrow you. The Imperium will crumble. Mankind will die.

Turn to Chaos? Same story. They are, however, a far more powerful ally, so maybe the Imperium will survive long enough for Chaos to seat itself in the Emperor's throne. That is assuming the Chaos forces that do not believe mankind should be inducted peacefully can be defeated. So now humanity is under the sway of Chaos. Mankind is decimated, as the majority will have resisted the Imperium's corruption to their last breath. The remaining populace grows stronger under Chaos (assumption) and changes into daemonic entities. Humanity is no more.

BUT, if the Imperium can find no allies, you could at least unite it and bring it under a less harsh rule, couldn't you?

So, we change to a democratic government. Every election will take a century at least considering the time it takes to communicate, to count a billion gazillion votes, and to bring the elected individuals together on a single place to start the beginning of the negotiations to form a government. By that time the Imperium has collapsed in a barbaric anarchy if it has not yet been overrun by hordes of aliens.
And I don't even mention the impossibility of trying to change the Imperium's current political system. Your talking about a more than a hundred lightyears spanning society. That doesn't change it's rules and way of life in a split second.

But we could try and make life a bit more enjoyable, couldn't we? BUT your whole Imperium is waging a constant war and borders on the brink of defeat. Every citizen is now a cell in a body trying to survive a deadly disease. Anyone who fails or who doesn't work hard to ensure mankid can survive makes the Imperium less efficient, using up vital resources yet giving none in return.
BUT still you introduce the 40 hours working week, holidays every so often, more comfort etc. etc. No one knows what to do with all this time as the concept of comfort and time off is utterly alien to a civilization that is used to work 20 hours a day. All production and transport is disrupted by this sudden change. The entire Imperium ceases to function and crumbles. Other races that are still fully geared for war now make their attack as they sense the Imperium is weak. Mankind is exterminated.

BUT we could at least stop the mass annihilation of innocent civilians after a Chaos incursion? So let's do that! The taint of Chaos remains after each battle involving the minions of the Warp and preys on the weak and unwary. It tempts them in the hope of aiding (assumption) these people and offering them a path to freedom. Soon, whole systems align themselves to Chaos and a war of epic proportions between the Chaos supporters (with aid from some Chaos Marines, though I expect most of them to watch the Imperium tear itself apart*) and the factions of the Imperium who will not turn (most Space Marines etc.). The Imperium crumbles. Humanity destroys itself.

It's easy to criticize the Imperium from our comfortable home in a comfortable universe. And if you do, that's good, as it shows you are against such terrible regimes.
BUT saying the Imperium is doing it because it is an evil dictatorship (or monodeistic-whatever...) doesn't make much sense when you think about it. The Imperium is an animal that fights for survival. An animal knows no such thing as ethics. Ethics is a luxury.
GW fluff gave humanity in the 41st millenium the interesting twist of not being entirely human in the way we are. Though it can be compared with the Nazies (BUT they are NOT identical), resemblences with the first Homo Sapiens tribes are probably more accurate.

*Remember that there is no Chaos faction that ever fought alongside the Imperium or aided it in any way. Not when the Hive Fleets slaughtered their way through defenceless planets. Not when Ghazghkull threw the world of Armageddon in an endless war (that suddenly started to end, bizarly). Never. So if Chaos really believe they must unite humanity, why not first try to show them their good means?

Just my opinion.

Kriegsherr
20-12-2006, 15:35
That settle it? :rolleyes:



Glad someone told the ugly truth... Agreed on every single point.

The Imperium is far worse than any RL fascist regime.

Likewise the Tau have a mean of control of their citizens that even the most manipulating dictators can only dream of, the tyranids are more fierce than every single living predator (and of course, also much more fierce than the predators from long ago...), the orks are much wilder and warlike than any RL "barbarian tribe", and the chaos followers much more ignorant and self-harming than any satanists ever could be.

Everything in 40k is a overexagerated cliche of some sort, and most of them have a lot of negative imagery in it... like it or not, it is meant to be a gothic, wartorn universe, so the "no good guys around" doctrine of GW makes sense.

But likeing the fascist Imperium doesn't mean to be a n4zi. Like playing the magician in a RPG doesn't mean you have to practice witchcraft in RL.

And of course, the Imperium IS forced to be an evil empire. In the 40k universe, only the thoughest and most ruthless can survive. So yes, the xenos and other powers do force them to be that way. That doesn't excuses anything.
Doing the wrong things for a right cause usually will end in a tragedy

azimaith
20-12-2006, 16:00
Hive Minion, I don't disagree with stuff there, but I think your still taking the forgone conclusion that chaos is all flat out insane wants to kill everyone just becuase. Which isn't the case.

Why don't the warriors of chaos show them their good means? Because whenever they do anything of the sort the inquisition pops in, murders everyone in the area, or even exterminates the planet. The Imperiums life blood is chaos and its as much a force for good there as it is evil.

One could argue chaos was showing its good means by the Sanctioned Psykers, the Legions of the Damned, or the navigators who allow the ships of the Imperium to navigate the warp.

Besides, this isn't about keeping humanity humanity, its about making mankind survivable for the future, and if thats as a daemon rather than a being of flesh and blood then so be it. Being human is not automatically good and being a daemon is not automatically bad.

Once the Imperium is dead and gone, one of the largest sources of anguish and pain in the galaxy is gone and the warp begins to calm down. The Necrons conquer what remains of the lesser xeno races other than the orkz, but the warp gets no more turbulent as the necrons don't reflect there and the orkz don't do "anguish" The Eldar retreat to the web way and stay there warp becomes a relatively placid place like it was before the War in Heaven.

The entire point is to say the Imperium doesn't deserve to live in its current form. Why bother fighting everything and everyone when you could go to chaos and leave the Orkz, the Tau, the Tyranids, Necrons, all behind. Its too bad everyones got this new version of chaos idea where its all evil and tentacles and spinning heads.

hiveminion
20-12-2006, 16:06
I'm sorry if I still sound extremely anti-Chaos, your information did make me think (though it is still my opinion the majority of Chaos is evil in some sort of way, I mean, those Black Crusades weren't that friendly, were they?)

Psykers are not gifts of Chaos, they are gifts of the Warp. Chaos is just a large group of powerful entities inhabiting the Warp.

Being a daemon isn't neccesarily bad as you said, but the human is not the daemon. He/she is the daemonhost. Once the daemon pops out of their skin, the human is gone. Therefore, if you want to live, it is not an option.

Right? (shouldn't have said that)

azimaith
20-12-2006, 16:13
I'm sorry if I still sound extremely anti-Chaos, your information did make me think (though it is still my opinion the majority of Chaos is evil in some sort of way, I mean, those Black Crusades weren't that friendly, were they?)

Niether was the Horus Heresy where half the space marines disagreed with the Emperor's stand on the warp (and we all know the emperor was an incredibly open minded and unbigoted guy) and went to chaos. Besides, don't confuse chaos and chaos space marines. They are not the same thing. A worshipper of chaos can have a family and children who he/she loves dearly, they can be a mother, father, grandfather or grandmother. When people think of chaos worshippers they often think of "Buffalo Bob" (It puts the lotion on its skin!) rather than an actual regular person.



Psykers are not gifts of Chaos, they are gifts of the Warp. Chaos is just a large group of powerful entities inhabiting the Warp.

Chaos simply describes the warp itself. The warp is chaos and Chaos is the warp. The warp itself is a reflection of emotions in the physical realm, thus it is seperated into very broad categories each under the chaos gods, who all represent aspects of emotion.



Being a daemon isn't neccesarily bad as you said, but the human is not the daemon. He/she is the daemonhost.

Daemon host is a very specific creature. Its a human melded with a daemon via human tinkering.


Once the daemon pops out of their skin, the human is gone. Therefore, if you want to live, it is not an option.

Thats not quite accurate, first I assume you are talking about a "daemon vessel" not a daemonhost. Second i'm not advocating people go out and summon daemons to the materium, merely they just stay in the warp in the same manner the Chaos space marines did. As you note, the Chaos space marines are still very much alive, they didn't all just have daemons pop out of them.



Right? (shouldn't have said that)
Your confusing daemon possession with becoming a daemon (as in being suffused with the energies of the warp and recieving gifts from your gods.)

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 18:18
The Imperiums life blood is chaos and its as much a force for good there as it is evil.

Um, no.

That's the Empyrean.

The Chaos powers, e.g. the Gods, are insane. Their followers can be good, normal, or evil, but most are vicious and self-centred crusaders for their dark gods.

The warp, the Empyrean, is neutral - it is in itself neither good nor bad, but can - and is - used for both ends by both sides.

Chaos is and always was, however, mostly about beating the other chap's skull in in the name of your power. Think of it as Hobbseian power dynamics or something. ;)

Splagbot
20-12-2006, 19:19
Steiner would make a fine comissar.

You see that Steiner he thinks you'd make a fine Commissar, he never says things like that to me, not fair.

azimaith
20-12-2006, 19:21
Um, no.

That's the Empyrean.

The Chaos powers, e.g. the Gods, are insane. Their followers can be good, normal, or evil, but most are vicious and self-centred crusaders for their dark gods.

The warp, the Empyrean, is neutral - it is in itself neither good nor bad, but can - and is - used for both ends by both sides.

Chaos is and always was, however, mostly about beating the other chap's skull in in the name of your power. Think of it as Hobbseian power dynamics or something. ;)

The way I see it:
The Empyrean is a reflection of the material universe.
Emotions reflect in the Empyrean creating effects, good or ill.
Chaos Gods represent large categories of emotions.

Thus the chaos gods are part of the empyrean because they're the result of emotional reflection of realspace.
Thus chaos and empyrean are the same thing to me. To seperate them would be like saying water is in an ocean but theres no oceans made of water in my opinion.
Conversion, is all about beating someones skull in over your power. But conversion and chaos are not the same. One may convert in the name of chaos but thats not what chaos is.


You see that Steiner he thinks you'd make a fine Commissar, he never says things like that to me, not fair.

You should include Imperial dogma or the like in all your posts like Steiner then. :)

Crassus
20-12-2006, 19:55
The eldar lie, steal and stab ya in the back as soon as look at the imperium any chance they get.


Eldar don't lie, steal or stab you in the back, they try to protect their dying race and try to stop foul daemons of the warp and mankind look like people who can easily fall into it's influence.



The necrons wanna enslave and conquer everyone.

the necrons are evil, but they don't want to enslave or conquor, they want rid of all life and to be able to continue to feed and satisfy whats left of the C'Tan. the necrons have never actualy enslaved anyone, they just kill 'em

azimaith
20-12-2006, 19:59
the necrons are evil, but they don't want to enslave or conquor, they want rid of all life and to be able to continue to feed and satisfy whats left of the C'Tan. the necrons have never actualy enslaved anyone, they just kill 'em
He had it right the first time. The necrons want to enslave everyone so they can get delicious food for their masters. The necrons have enslaved people. Theres actually a picture of a line of humans being herded by pariahs in chains in the necron codex.

The necrons masters want life, they want lots of it, just none of it that can hurt them.

Also, all that killing necrons do. "Life harvesting" according to Pete Haines:

Pete Haines:"At the current stage of their awakening Necrons are still predominantly raiders so vast amounts of heavy kit is inappropriate. Also bear in mind that the devices necrons use at present are not really weapons (at least as far as they are concerned), rather they are tools for harvesting life force. After all to use weaponry is to imply their victims are worthy adversaries."

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 20:07
The way I see it:
The Empyrean is a reflection of the material universe.
Emotions reflect in the Empyrean creating effects, good or ill.
Chaos Gods represent large categories of emotions.

Thus the chaos gods are part of the empyrean because they're the result of emotional reflection of realspace.
Thus chaos and empyrean are the same thing to me. To seperate them would be like saying water is in an ocean but theres no oceans made of water in my opinion.
Conversion, is all about beating someones skull in over your power. But conversion and chaos are not the same. One may convert in the name of chaos but thats not what chaos is.

Having recited the 666 Canticles of the Ordo Malleus and the one thousand verses of the Incantation of Purification, I feel strong enough to fully respond to this. *ahem*

The Empyrean, the Warp, the Immaterium, the stuff of nightmares. Whichever name it goes by, it is simply another, parallel, universe. Its denizens are created by, and feed off, sentient creature's feelings, concious or otherwise. The creatures of the Warp are, by and large, short lived and fleeting. We appear, represented by our souls, as sparks of light - psychic activity.

So far, so similar, blah blah, know that etc.

However, to say that the Chaos Gods are the Warp is a mistake. To take your analogy, the Chaos Gods are polluted water within the oceans. They are oil slicks, radiated 'heavy' water, or a vast horde of rubber ducks. They are created from the Empyrean by the desires of sentient races, but they are not the Warp.

It, the Warp, is, like any ocean, neutral. It cares nothing for those who sail it - it is as if a spaceman blamed the vacuum of the void for his death when his suit leaked. The creatures that live within the Immaterium are fish, then, existing within the Warp - but they are not the Warp.

True, they cannot survive for long outside the warp, and they are made from it, but they are no more the warp than you or I are representative of Carbon or H20 or any of the other chemical components that make up our bodies.

You see? The Warp is neutral. It is what its wielder makes it.

A Psyker can do works of good and works of bad, but the warp, like the gun or bullet, is neither. It simply is.

Crassus
20-12-2006, 20:12
He had it right the first time. The necrons want to enslave everyone so they can get delicious food for their masters. The necrons have enslaved people. Theres actually a picture of a line of humans being herded by pariahs in chains in the necron codex.

enslavement sugests beings being forced to work to build ,harvest, etc. necrons only harvest because THEY ARE THE SLAVES. who they collect are devoured (in easy terms), not made to work to death. the picture of pariahs and the line of people is necrons putting "food" for their masters on a ship to bring to them or bring them to the masters directly. why would the necrons need slaves? they have all the need plus if anything needs rebuilt the tomb spyders will deal with it since that is what they are designed for. so he did not have it right.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 20:30
The way I see it:
The Empyrean is a reflection of the material universe.
Emotions reflect in the Empyrean creating effects, good or ill.
Chaos Gods represent large categories of emotions.

Thus the chaos gods are part of the empyrean because they're the result of emotional reflection of realspace.
Thus chaos and empyrean are the same thing to me. To seperate them would be like saying water is in an ocean but theres no oceans made of water in my opinion.
Conversion, is all about beating someones skull in over your power. But conversion and chaos are not the same. One may convert in the name of chaos but thats not what chaos is.


There are Chaos Gods of all emotions, not just the big four. The Material universe and the Warp are entirely seperate dimensions.

RampagingRavener
20-12-2006, 20:37
enslavement sugests beings being forced to work to build ,harvest, etc. necrons only harvest because THEY ARE THE SLAVES. who they collect are devoured (in easy terms), not made to work to death. the picture of pariahs and the line of people is necrons putting "food" for their masters on a ship to bring to them or bring them to the masters directly. why would the necrons need slaves? they have all the need plus if anything needs rebuilt the tomb spyders will deal with it since that is what they are designed for. so he did not have it right.

No, the C'tan do want to enslave the other races. See the quote on page 21 of the Necron codex:


They will seek to harvest us at first, for they will be hungry after their long sleep. Then they will turn their efforts to enslaving the survivors. <snip>

Why would the C'tan want to enslave humanity? For the hell of it, simply. Because they can, and they would enjoy having hordes of slaves to put to work endlessly. Remember, to a C'tan, a human is little more than a toy to play with, then drain of energy when it no longer amuses them. Plus, they can breed enslaved humans like cattle to feed themselves on.

azimaith
20-12-2006, 20:45
The way I see it Steiner.

To use your analogy.
If a fish is made of water its water. Doesn't matter if its also a fish, but its also water.

A human is a human, but its also a collection of chemicals.

Thus they are one in the same, their forms are what give them different names.

The creature of the warp itself also are not just feeders on emotion. The emotions of realspace reflect in the environment of the warp. You don't get skys raining blood and planets in the form of screaming skulls on daemon worlds just because. Its because the emotional reflection the warp that changes it. Before the War in Heaven the warp entities were peaceful entities, during the war they became vicious and hungry as the young races emotions reflected in the warp.

Crassus:
No, they are enslaved, it doesn't matter if you use slaves to catch more. Necrons don't need to enslave anyone to harvest them, their gauss weapons are "life harvesters" they just shoot people with them.

That basically destroys the idea they need to bring people to their masters to eat at all.

The slaves of necrons can do lots of things. They can worship the c'tan for their pleasure, they can work in breeding pits to make more, and they can be kept like a larder.

The necrons need slaves because a tomb spyder bowing in supplication is not nearly as interesting as a human to the C'tan and because they need to keep humans with them to eat like a pantry. The entirety of page 63 of the necron codex talks about each of the "herds" of the C'tan.

slave /sleɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sleyv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, slaved, slav&#183;ing.
–noun
1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.


There are Chaos Gods of all emotions, not just the big four. The Material universe and the Warp are entirely seperate dimensions.
Yes they're seperate, but the Warp is a mirror of reality. It says so specifically.

bertcom1
20-12-2006, 20:58
For the Necrons attitude to life, enslaving is probably not the right word.

'Domesticate' i.e. 'tame' is perhaps better. The Necrons want to make other life more convenient for their purposes.

Crassus
20-12-2006, 21:27
For the Necrons attitude to life, enslaving is probably not the right word.

'Domesticate' i.e. 'tame' is perhaps better. The Necrons want to make other life more convenient for their purposes.


i agree. the way azimaith describes what necrons do to "slaves" makes them sound a lot more like cattle. certain ones are kept for breading whilst the rest are cosumed. therefore they are livestock not slaves which is what i was saying.

p.s this is supposed to be about the imperium so enough of the necron talk

Zanzibarthefirst
21-12-2006, 00:17
as a chaos fan,my favourite has to be daemonhunters in order to preserve the balance.

crashbang
21-12-2006, 00:25
the imperium is a dictatorship in the dark ages where people who say the wrong words get killed as heretics. join a democracy-join the nids, you know you want to...

of course some of it is even free choice. the solidness of goo you want to become, the colour etc. bliss!!:D :D

AngryAngel
21-12-2006, 08:12
See now thats why ya don't trust the xenos scum. They try to deceive and lead astray, but they can't take away the truth. The emperor is great and almighty..and one day the taint of wicknedness will be pruged from the galaxy by a firestorm at the hands of humanity. That time will be glorious.

Though as side note..glad we can all agree the necrons are evil.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
21-12-2006, 08:38
Here's the way it was put to me be a non-player theist the other day:

In 40K, the only REAL gods are those from the Warp. The Emperor obviously doesn't count, Khaine is a wussy, etc. So if they say blood and killing and plague and excess of sensory exploration and whatnot are good, then they are right. Because they are the gods. There is no "good" deity we can compare them too, really. They are gods, they say what goes. Humanity is boned. 40K is not a nice place to live. And the reason why the Imperium is so well fleshed is, as has been said before, because WE are the Imperium. Humans. Everything else is details.

bram kuijpers
21-12-2006, 08:54
there are some humans that like the imperium (catachans)
they just love deathworlds
(piece out codex: we've run into scorpions the size of battle tanks, three
men died from Eyerot last week , Ive sweat enough to fil a lake, my boots got sucked into a stink-swamp and the trees are so thick in places, you cant
squeeze between them , Emperor help me. I love this place! its just like home!)

prety freaky hu?

anyway the Emperor is called a god Emperor so we can say hes a god or
something just as powerful as a god (though hes almost dead)

Dragonlv8
21-12-2006, 09:30
Percinally I like the imperial guard over all those other choices because the Space marines are a bit up them selves and the emperor and everything and arent realy that brave because the imperial guard have more to be worried about I mean they got less armor,weaker weapons you name it.
And as every one said earlyer the space marines where prob brain washed and who the hell is the emperor that they love so much.
Model for emperor please (make him week ugly and have a huge head)

hiveminion
21-12-2006, 14:50
So, I've heard a lot of things on this thread I didn't know, or didn't like, but also things I do like.

As for my final opinion (if anyone cares), I think the Imperium is a cruel monodeistic-wabbadeedoodoo state. It knows no pity, no remorse. All reason has given way to madness. I believe this is a natural evolution of human society under such circumstances.
But it has courage, too. And heroism. That is because, for example, the Space Marines fight for a cause they BELIEVE is good. And for that cause they overcome their fears and commit their lives to eternal war. Same goes for IG. That this is combined with mass genocide (though I don't think Marines actually murder innocent civilians after a Chaos incursion in the way of walking through the streets and killing them personaly. Such dirty work is beneath their responsibility) does not matter, as this has nothing to do with bravery. Remember the fact they KNOW for the full 100% they're doing the right thing makes them not wicked or evil but simply morally disabled.

For the sake of the enjoyment of the game, I ignore all evidence that Chaos may be good and I allow my Space Marines to act like heroes (or as I had already mentioned like Snotlings with slingshots). When it comes to gaming, that's how I like it to be.

When it comes to fluff, I just picture Space Marines to be heroic in some wrong way, and for our standards they are just insane zealots/fundamentalists. And perhaps Chaos is good...in the fluff.

So that sounds contradictory but I just view the two as separate elements of the 40k game.

Carry on

Crassus
21-12-2006, 16:24
See now thats why ya don't trust the xenos scum. They try to deceive and lead astray, but they can't take away the truth. The emperor is great and almighty..and one day the taint of wicknedness will be pruged from the galaxy by a firestorm at the hands of humanity. That time will be glorious.

yeah but the temptation is hard to resist, oh well


Though as side note..glad we can all agree the necrons are evil.

hurray , an agreement now back to the imperium