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Carynthir
19-12-2006, 23:08
Well I said I'd start up a second thread once the old one hit 1000 posts. Considering the ratio of pages-to-rumors I think it would be best to continue discussion here. Many thanks to all you who contributed to the previous incantation of this thread. The rumors from the 'pointy-eared horde of doom' are summarized bellow:

C - Confirmned rumor
H - Generally accepted, high probabilty it's accurate
U - Unconfirmed
D - Disputed and unconfirmed

The Round Up, as of Dec 19th, 2006

C - High Elves are being released after empire

H - Released late spring / early summer

H - Book by Adam Troke

H - I@C will be removed

H - All High Elf Units strike in initiative order (thanks to therisnosaurus)

H - New sketchs of the LSG have been spotted, 'Gnarly High Elf Pirates'. (thanks again to therisnosaurus)

H - Some old unit(s) are being brought back

H - There will be a new unit that causes fear

H - Swordmasters are getting a powerful upgrade

H - There will be a chariot model with White Lions pulling it, HOWEVER there is no confirmation if it's a unit, special character or what. There is a model. It is for High Elves.

Note: This appears to be a reflection of the approach GW is taking towards Fantasy in general to clearly distinguish the races from 'human history'. "Expect more of these units" (thanks to shoggoth)

H - Tyron, Teclis, Imrik are back; however, there will be 5 special characters total

U - Points cost for spearelves and Lothern Sea Gaurd has been decreased. (thanks to Rekmar)

U - Points cost for some special and rare units has been reduced (thanks to Rekmar again)

U - Cavalry points cost has been increased (thank you Rekmar)

U - There will be new magic items (thanks to Rekmar)

D - Drake riders may make an appearance as unit options

D - May see the HE magical items cost brought in line with other races

D - There may be a new griffon model (I pulled this one from another fantasy thread found off Google the other day)


Discuss! :)




What I'm most hopefull for and think can be a C is a new platic reg of cav due to the fact that the silvies are a complete disaster. The short legs that bristle right out, knocking the feet into eachother so you can't actually get the unit together. They'll probably make the legs already on the new steed like the new boar boy.

Gabacho Mk.II
20-12-2006, 00:00
The main thing that sticks out for me is: High Elves strike in Initiative order!!

Does this mean that even when charged, HE strike by Initiative??



If it does, then the HE just became a tad more respectable... along with skirmishing White Lions, Unbreakable Phoenix Guard, chariots drawn by Lions of Chrace, etc...


just a thought...:cool:

Just Tony
20-12-2006, 04:14
The silver Helms were a disaster? Stagger them when you glue them to their horses. The LAST thing we need is a perfectly fine plastic set redone, to drive the cost of the boxed sets up even more. New models, but only if they NEED the resculpt. The rules changes were what we needed most. I'm just waiting to see how the whole list plays out before passing judgement. But it looks to me as GW has it in for High Elves. As they stand, every army is better. THe said points adjustments are a pretty good start, except that the cavalry are where they need to be.

Tony

kheirakh
20-12-2006, 08:00
The main thing that sticks out for me is: High Elves strike in Initiative order!!

Does this mean that even when charged, HE strike by Initiative??



If it does, then the HE just became a tad more respectable... along with skirmishing White Lions, Unbreakable Phoenix Guard, chariots drawn by Lions of Chrace, etc...


just a thought...:cool:

I don't believe this happens. That would make every army going against HE going super-shoota or super-magic. No-one wants those white lions or swordmasters to kill you when you charge them. Maybe only for units that fight with spears and are on foot. Not otherwise. First strike costs. That would make your swormasters cost 20 pts. Not true! I know for sure! Don't expect that much my children..

Jhayden
20-12-2006, 08:07
I just hope they make Pheonix Guard unbreakable. Think about it, they know exactly when they're going to die. If they have this knowledge then why would they start to run away? They know they're either going to die right then and there or they know they're going to survive the battle to live another day. It just makes sense.

WokeUpDead
20-12-2006, 12:36
"..but the He Prince on Dragon...well....let's say that it could get a very very nasty big magic lance to strike down enemy units...hint hint..."

ah.. the rightly feared Elven-Flyswatter/Lance.. ;)


what's kinda annoying IMO is: they see that new über-units aren't the way to go.. but they think that characters-on-monsters-with-überweapons are, because it was so much fun in past editions when those rolled up a whole battlefield on their own.. :rolleyes:

Eldroth
20-12-2006, 13:29
i could confirm that Drake riders will be out from the book

Cavatore said:"We already know the mistake done with Pegasus riders for Brets,we will not continue in this way..no drakes riders for HE"

And also:

"..but the He Prince on Dragon...well....let's say that it could get a very very nasty big magic lance to strike down enemy units...hint hint..."

*quirks an eyebrow* Well at least one potential band-aid solution has been averted in the form of Drake Riders. Perhaps the designers aren't going to be so quick to put the sheen on the bells and whistles before they've picked apart the meat and bones of the High Elf list. The allusion to the halcyon days of 5th Edition "Hero-Hammer" is a tad worrying however. The real pity lies in the fact that sculptors didn't get a crack at the Drake Riders...

Odin
20-12-2006, 13:45
The main thing that sticks out for me is: High Elves strike in Initiative order!!

Does this mean that even when charged, HE strike by Initiative??



If it does, then the HE just became a tad more respectable... along with skirmishing White Lions, Unbreakable Phoenix Guard, chariots drawn by Lions of Chrace, etc...


just a thought...:cool:

It sounds like an interesting idea, but if it's to be implemented I think it really needs to be a universal rule for Elves, not just HE (after all, HEs have so many different schools of combat it would seem odd if they somehow had a particular skill common to all HEs but unknown to other elves).

Finnigan2004
20-12-2006, 15:24
I don't really think that they'd give high elf infantry initiaitve order striking when charged, but if it were possible to give it in subsequent rounds, it might make white lions useful and spearmen might be worth it, if they did get it on the charge like pikemen. The real problem is that most elite infantry are hard to use against faster units (especially t 3 infantry. Something has to be done, so that we see those elf infantry on competitive tabletops again because the all high elf build is not that fluffy and sort of boring (yes, I have high elves, lots of them-- including thirty silver helms, a bunch of dragon princes, and reaver knights).

Noldo
20-12-2006, 18:07
I would suppose that if the rumour of "striking at initiative order, even when charged" it would have one or several of the following restrictions:

1.) Only when fighting against enemies on their front

2.) Only units fighting with spears

3.) Only first rank of units fighting with spears

However, the ideas presented above are my personal opinion and it is not based on any information obtained from GW employee or other more or less reliable source.

EvC
20-12-2006, 18:49
Hmm, I wonder, did there used to be another tyoe of High Elf Cavalry? All the recent army books - WE, Orcs, Empire - have all received a new (And often returning) unit of Light Cavalry, even though each of these armies already has a decent Fast Cavalry unit. Perhaps they will continue this trend, and split the Silver Helms into a Heavy Cavalry unit and a Light Cavalry unit (And then there could in fact be two new plastic cavalry boxed sets on the cards)...

Baindread
20-12-2006, 19:21
I would suppose that if the rumour of "striking at initiative order, even when charged" it would have one or several of the following restrictions:

1.) Only when fighting against enemies on their front

2.) Only units fighting with spears

3.) Only first rank of units fighting with spears

However, the ideas presented above are my personal opinion and it is not based on any information obtained from GW employee or other more or less reliable source.

It is a possibility that this rule is in conjunction with the "Citizen Levy" rule when you think about it.

Move Fast Hit Low
20-12-2006, 20:17
It would be a travesty if they raised all the cavalry models pt cost up,it doesn't make sense to me with all the players who use pure cavalry lists? It would certainly ruin the army i just built :(

Noldo
20-12-2006, 21:07
It would be a travesty if they raised all the cavalry models pt cost up,it doesn't make sense to me with all the players who use pure cavalry lists? It would certainly ruin the army i just built

Well, the very point of rising the cost of cavalry is to ruin the elven all cavalry lists, as they are very much against the background information given to high elves.

Eldanar
20-12-2006, 21:25
I am a High Elf player and I tend to follow these threads to see what is potentially in the works. I am also a moderator.

I am going to be ruthless in culling off topic posts, flaming, trolling and spam. I already have had to cut 4 posts from the first *******' page. :rolleyes:

So be warned.

Warseer Inquisition

gorenut
20-12-2006, 21:48
Is there a reason why all high elves will strike in initiative order? Are they going to do something to all their equip and wargear or is this going to be just something added to the stats of the high elves? IF so.. I don't see what would justify them being able to do it above all other elves (ok, DE havn't gotten updated yet), especially since WE just saw a recent release.

Intrepid Adventurer
20-12-2006, 21:57
H - All High Elf Units strike in initiative order (thanks to therisnosaurus)

H - New sketchs of the LSG have been spotted, 'Gnarly High Elf Pirates'. (thanks again to therisnosaurus)



Whoa... show me the sketches, baby! Puh-lease?

Tili
20-12-2006, 22:18
Well I said I'd start up a second thread
C - High Elves are being released after empire


Hmm this is bad and good.

bad: VC has to wait a year (? 6 months ?)...
good: more time to get money for the VC...

Sorry, high elfs are cool, but they just arent that coo... (fluffwise yes, gamewise, nooo)

Yanos
20-12-2006, 22:26
Is there a reason why all high elves will strike in initiative order? Are they going to do something to all their equip and wargear or is this going to be just something added to the stats of the high elves? IF so.. I don't see what would justify them being able to do it above all other elves (ok, DE havn't gotten updated yet), especially since WE just saw a recent release.

I second that incredulity. Quite apart from the need for all elven troops to be updated along these lines, it turns the entire game on its head if you don't have to worry about getting a charge off.

Dosadi
20-12-2006, 23:45
Perhaps certain units will get this rule. Governed by some "elite" rule status that non-citizen troops will have. I can see this rule applying to Swordmasters and possibly White Lions. I picture the scene in the begining of FoTR where the elven battleline cuts down the charging orcs before getting overwhelmed. Maybe this is what they are going for?
Can you imagine a unit of spearmen taking the charge and striking first in three ranks? This rule would make High Elves one of the most static armies in the game (even more than dwarfs used to be?).
Skirmishing White Lions? Arn't these guys meant to be the King's Bodyguard? I guess their role on the battlefield could be different in this respect. Skirmish certainly makes more sense for the "woodsmen".
I can't see Drake riders as they would suddenly create a new kind of RAF that would be even more gross. I guess as long as they keep them rare and 0-1 or a single unit upgrade to Dragon Princes.
Something that I can see is giving heroes the ability to take dragon mounts.
I'm looking for the swordmasters to have a "deflect arrow" rule back in.
I'm also hoping that High Elves become the "armoured" elves (Dark elves being semi-armoured and Woodys being no armour). Give Spearmen the ability to take heavy armour again. Create a full plate equivelent for the "elite" units, etc.

Dosadi

Eldroth
21-12-2006, 04:33
I'm also hoping that High Elves become the "armoured" elves (Dark elves being semi-armoured and Woodys being no armour). Give Spearmen the ability to take heavy armour again. Create a full plate equivelent for the "elite" units, etc.

I can smell the designers smelting Ithilmar right at this very moment...

vorac
21-12-2006, 05:23
me and a friend already play this way, the phoenix guard and black guard have a 4+ save, the phoenix guard are unbreakable, the dragon princes are stubborn, the swordmasters always strike at initiative, spearmen have heavy armour both DE and HE and executioners cause fear.

Dragon of the Pants
21-12-2006, 05:30
I just hope to God that they change the rules on the twins. In NO CIRCUMSTANCES should ANY model ever have a 2+ ward with no way through. (Magic, etc.)

Baindread
21-12-2006, 08:17
me and a friend already play this way, the phoenix guard and black guard have a 4+ save, the phoenix guard are unbreakable, the dragon princes are stubborn, the swordmasters always strike at initiative, spearmen have heavy armour both DE and HE and executioners cause fear.

Our group also played with 4+ armour save for High and Dark Elves a couple of years back in the worst elfstorm of threads here on portent. Still very,very underpowered despite of all the "Pass the bong"-comments made on the idea back then.

Avian
21-12-2006, 12:48
It would be a travesty if they raised all the cavalry models pt cost up,it doesn't make sense to me with all the players who use pure cavalry lists? It would certainly ruin the army i just built :(
From GW's point of view, it would be very good if you went out and bought a whole lot of new models for your army, as it would make them a lot of money. Expect less used units to become better and a couple of new choices being added for just this reason. Similarly, don't be surprised if things that is used a lot becomes worse.

There is little gain for GW if they redo the army and people continue to use the models they already have.

Arhalien
21-12-2006, 12:50
So We can expect swordmasters to get worse? or just cavalry because they are the most commonly used of all elf army types?

Avian
21-12-2006, 13:03
I guess it would depend on whether or not they get new models or not.

(Note that when I say worse, I mean less cost-effective. Thus you may end up with model that get better, but where the increased cost means that they are less cost effective than before.)

Arhalien
21-12-2006, 13:09
I think that new models for swordmasters are an almost certain occurence, as the current ones really aren;t up to scratch IMO.

Oh, and this is my 500th post :D

WokeUpDead
21-12-2006, 13:31
Perhaps certain units will get this rule. Governed by some "elite" rule status that non-citizen troops will have. I can see this rule applying to Swordmasters and possibly White Lions. I picture the scene in the begining of FoTR where the elven battleline cuts down the charging orcs before getting overwhelmed. Maybe this is what they are going for?
Can you imagine a unit of spearmen taking the charge and striking first in three ranks? This rule would make High Elves one of the most static armies in the game (even more than dwarfs used to be?).
Dosadi

quite the opposite.
with a unit that always strikes first as my core choice, I'm marching forward and dare the opponent to charge me. less space for him to work on, more security-distance for my archers as I stop the enemy on his ground, more ground for elites and cav to manouver..
no, such a change would make ~my~ HE a lot more agressive (which is saying something, as they always were :p )

therisnosaurus
21-12-2006, 14:02
IMHO, I believe we will see the following

Characters:
-new special character models for the two new special chars. I expect the new plastic dragon that has been rumored may be tied in with the second wave HE release (since GW seem to be adopting the two-wave release universally) with a new imrik or generic elflord on dragon model.

- we may or may not see a plastic commander model. it makes sense that GW does it with empire and orcs, but I still have my doubts they'll try it with HE. Still, it is more likely than unlikely, so we'll see.

Core:
-new plastic cav have just about been confirmed. I expect these to follow the 5 model unit format seen on the pistoliers and have options for silver helms and dragon princes. It seems unlikely that options for reavers will also be included unless for some reason GW took my mad idea and gave them barding. This makes reasonable economic sense and if HE are getting new barded steeds, it works as well.

-I also expect either new spears OR new archers. one or the other. one of the biggest problems with the HE as current is that their two core units are visually jarringly different, so I think they may invest in bringing one in line with the other. My personal thought is that archers will get the flick, but this is a total stab in the dark, and it's still 50/50 that neither get redone.

-metal sea guard: in pursuance with that, both concepts and, apparently, models of new seaguard have been spotted. I assume these are metals, however, it is possible that GW might be doing a universal HE infantry unit that can make seaguard, archers and spearmen, possibly following the format of the empire infantry boxes. I think, however, this is unlikely, and we'll see the seaguard in metal

elites:

swordmasters/white lions: I'd say there's a 99 percent chance of one of these getting a makeover and about 50% of both. I'd guess it's more likely to be swordmasters since white lions still look fairly dynamic. personally, I'd love to see both get done, but realistically, I have my doubts.

reavers: this is one of the reasons I still hold hope for the three-unit thing for the cavalry box. These models are ancient and really do need a redo, but I don't see them getting their own set or even new models unless they're incorporated into a plastic box. If they are, and the above ten model seaguard/spearmen/archer box I speculated on comes true then that means six unit types from two boxes, which will, interestingly enough, free up a lot of shelf space, something GW desperately needs. But, sadly, I doubt it'll happen.

Phoenix guard and bolt throwers: I'd say there's about a zero percent chance of these getting redone. both brilliant models, both recent enough. the only way I see PG getting a redo is if their rules or armament changes significantly enough, which I don't see happening.

chariots and eagles: unless the lion chariot is a standard choice, I don't see either of these changing. GW has been notoriously reticent about doing new chariot models, and I don't see the trend buckling any time soon. If the lion chariot IS a standard choice, then all bets are off


Bear in mind that this is just my speculation, but I keep a close eye on quite a few reliable sources, so I do get little hints and things about trends within the studio in general, rather than specific, solid information. GW is notoriously difficult to predict, as they seem to change formats, aims, and styles with almost every release, but I've been fairly good at seeing what's coming in the past so hopefully my ponderings are in some way accurate

Dosadi
21-12-2006, 14:19
quite the opposite.
with a unit that always strikes first as my core choice, I'm marching forward and dare the opponent to charge me. less space for him to work on, more security-distance for my archers as I stop the enemy on his ground, more ground for elites and cav to manouver..
no, such a change would make ~my~ HE a lot more agressive (which is saying something, as they always were :p )

Maybe "static" wasn't the best word for me to use. what I meant was that it wouldn't matter if you got the charge or not. That level of strategy would be effectivly removed for games involving HE and a lot of players would build armies that arn't designed to move much beyond the first turn. A "static" line of spearmen that wins by goading the enemy into charging. It would become the default "beginners" army IMO.
Really, I don't see this rule comming into effect. It sounds like one of those theings that makes it into early playtest versions but is deemed to radical to have a place in the final draft.
People have been complaining about the elves since the dawn of 6th edition when they all got their toughness reduction (and the HE became less "uber"). There has been much speculation and wishing for a "fix" for the elves. If they were gonna do something like this for the elves I think they would have done it in the WE book first.

I'm actually going to miss I@C. I thought it was very fluffy. I do understand the removal though. GW is moving towards a more tournament friendly format for the games and I@C was one of those variables that made HE less competative in a lot of player's eyes.

I'm looking forward to the HE as my army has been lying in a box since 5th edition and it'd be fun to play with them again.

Dosadi

Arhalien
21-12-2006, 14:22
as an alternative to the strike in I order for spearmen maybe give them +1 to their armour savee when charged from the front, but only when using spears and shields. Combined with heavy armour it woulod give you a highly resilient unit, the anvil that spearelves are supposed to be.

WokeUpDead
21-12-2006, 14:29
Neither do I see it happen. It'd simply be too good and in the end a nobrainer.
though I'd like to see it (1 rank) against charging cav, as it would not be gamebreaking, but gave spears another tactical use than just 'sit and wait'.

and how where HE uber( it's über! :p)? in 5th pretty much everything was uber, so there was a kind of "balance" after all. and in 6th.. well, I haven't played 6th that much because IMO it suffered from being 'bland'. each unit/character had 1 purpose, a few maybe 2.. but that was it. so you were through with everything that you could do pretty fast and things got boring, YMMV.
what I'd like to see are more subtle elves, where you have tactically sound choices - instead of weak coretroops, useless archers and uberkilly, nobrainer-elites.

Selsaral
21-12-2006, 15:37
I would assume that the official high elf eagle mini will be the same new great eagle mini that is a US-direct-only mini for the wood elves?

Arhalien
21-12-2006, 15:38
Presumably, no reason to change it. I just use a warhawk mini (actually, I just use the flying base as the model has snapped the stand)

Ender Shadowkin
21-12-2006, 17:51
I think people are over reacting to the strikes in I order thing, expecially for spear weilding troops, S3 attacks are just not much to worry about, and I like to run big units of spears (say 4 rows of 7 :) ). I have had plenty of times when I threw down 20+ dice worth of S3 attacks and maybe gotten one wound. Especailly verse the T3 or T4 opponents. You could argue that it helps out a lot more verse low T lightly armored horde armies (who still usually get a 4+ AS . . .) but HE are currently at such a huge disadvantage in head to heads with those units anyway just by static combat res, all it does is level the playing field more. And its not gonna do squat verse heavy cav or massivly armred opponents.

If heroes can use this rule, then yeah it is more meaninful and I can see a lot more magic weapons, but again right now everyone snickers at HE heroes in combat. You have to be very careful with them as most unit champions can take them out, I think strike in I order is a great tradeoff for having t3 heroes . . . As a HE player, my heroes are usually mounted on something fast and I can pick my spots, and I really need to, becuase I still can charge, bounce, and get killed in the first round of combat, and if it lasts past one turn I'm in really big trouble, that will not change . . . (PS don't think I'm complaining, I don't mind the limitations, just pointing them out)

So in conclusion, as a HE player I see the strike in in I order on charges as nice, but not amazing. (well maybe on the units that can stand and shoot too, but I digress) . I'm still gonna do a lot of manuvering and postioning to bring multiple units into a combat and get flank charges. Its silly to think HE could just sit there letting their opponents chose the engagments expecting to beat back all of those charges. Saurus warrios striking first is scary, t3 spearemen with a 5+ save, not so much. If anything I'm nore prone to take spear elf unit and throw it right in the fact of my oppinent very early to possible stick and direct the flow of battle. If the HE infantry stays expensive I don't see a ballance problem.

sodapopinski
21-12-2006, 19:59
I think that the I attack order rule was misinterpreted, its more than likely that it will work just as the current swordmaster`s rule, just applying it to white lions and heroes wielding great weapons, dont you think?

superczhunk
21-12-2006, 20:27
RE: Striking in Initiative order.

This is an awesome rumor. They can still keep the elves as fragile troops, but by decreasing the cost a little and adding in this rule they become much more useful. I'm wondering if they get a free maneuver before they get charged so they can negate a flank charge against one unit...that would be killer.

Ghal Maraz
21-12-2006, 22:25
RE: Striking in Initiative order.

This is an awesome rumor. They can still keep the elves as fragile troops, but by decreasing the cost a little and adding in this rule they become much more useful. I'm wondering if they get a free maneuver before they get charged so they can negate a flank charge against one unit...that would be killer.


Yesss...
And thereafter you shouldn't even worry about moving your troops into strategic positions... Just go straight ahead and wait the enemy to charge. You will attack first and you would negate the majority of flank attacks.

weltenspringer
21-12-2006, 22:35
mmhh....are you really sure this is a "confirmed" or even a possible rumor, this Strike at I?

For me it seems that it´s just an idea of someone without GW even knowing about it.
Who does really know that this rule is under discussion in the new dex?
And besides the "confirmed" fact that HE is really the next Army instead of VC...ehm...i asked now several GW Members, and all of them said thats not true. Even in the latest WD in germany, there is a hint that the next army book will be VC.

Sure, everyone is saying thats true, but who knows it definitly? 100%?

just my 2 cents

Ghal Maraz
21-12-2006, 22:42
Me, I'm certainly not sure.
I was just commenting the post suggesting such a brainless combo of special army rules...

Dargon
21-12-2006, 23:15
Sure, everyone is saying thats true, but who knows it definitly? 100%?Nothing is ever 100% definate until the final print of the book is in your own two hands (and sometimes not even then - there is still confusion around some aspects of the O&G list, even after a FAQ;) ).

That's half the fun:D .

Just a thought...

adreal
22-12-2006, 00:12
I really wanted to stay out of most of this thread, cause I'm not a math hammer wiz or anything like that, and I have no contacts high up in GW, so I really know very little, except what I read.

Anyway, Vampire Counts or High Elves will be next, alot of people are excepting High Elves being next, but that doesn't really mean all that much.

Stike in Initive order even if charged doesn't make High Elves the defult beginners army, nor does it make them easy. They are only T3, they usually don't have good amrour or ward saves. Yeah Swordmaster, white lions and pheonix guard would be worrying if you charged them. And for the points, they should be. But, nothing is stopping you from shooting them elves, they are, after all only T3. On Spearmen, it's nothing that amazing, yeah once or twice you will wipe out a unit of chaos warriors of khorne that charged you, but it isn't all that gamebreaking. Also, if this rule is in effect, most units will either go up in points or stay the same. Again it's not that much to worry about. Lotheren Sea Guard will be uber, stand and shoot then fight in three ranks, yes freaking please, so I predict, if this rule comes to pass, then Sea Guard will have to choose on or the other.

What I am more interested in, is how GW will make Dragon Princes worth it, better strength would be nice, more attacks would be dandy, Immune to psych or unbreakable woul be extreme, but they now would be different from silver helms to a large degree.

sulla
22-12-2006, 04:47
What I am more interested in, is how GW will make Dragon Princes worth it, better strength would be nice, more attacks would be dandy, Immune to psych or unbreakable woul be extreme, but they now would be different from silver helms to a large degree.

The problem I have with this way of thinking is that it only looks at HE in isolation. But you can't do that. In the same way as you couldn't increase human toughness in only the Empire book but not the Brets or DoW, you can't make Dragon princes to uber because there is no logical reason they would outclass Cold one knights and wild riders by any great margin. The main mechanism that should be used to balance Dragon Princes is price vs silver helms. Higher ws, I, Ld, Charge range, ability to take a bigger standard and magic items are already enough bonuses to make them 'different' from silver helms IMO.

Having said that, I wouldn't be totally opposed to a strength increase but then you have 2 s4 elf units in the list and DE have none... They would obviously need some too since there is no logical reason for DE to be weaker than HE. At least with woodies, they can say it's from the 'forest spirit' rule.

Gabacho Mk.II
22-12-2006, 05:29
..., you can't make Dragon princes to uber because there is no logical reason they would outclass Cold one knights and wild riders by any great margin. The main mechanism that should be used to balance Dragon Princes is price vs silver helms. Higher ws, I, Ld, Charge range, ability to take a bigger standard and magic items are already enough bonuses to make them 'different' from silver helms IMO.



Well, why not?

Just why cant the well renowned 'Dragon Princes' be, well, feared and respected?

I for one would love to see the Dragon Princes riding the same steed equivalent of what Tyrion rides into battle. (sorry, forgot the mount's name)

A 0-1 Rare unit of Dragon Princes would be totally neat and quite awesome... something along the lines of 2 S4 attacks from the mount, and an additional S5 attack from the rider at Ws5... quite nice and appropriate if you ask me! :D

sulla
22-12-2006, 09:02
Well, why not?

Just why cant the well renowned 'Dragon Princes' be, well, feared and respected?

I for one would love to see the Dragon Princes riding the same steed equivalent of what Tyrion rides into battle. (sorry, forgot the mount's name)

A 0-1 Rare unit of Dragon Princes would be totally neat and quite awesome... something along the lines of 2 S4 attacks from the mount, and an additional S5 attack from the rider at Ws5... quite nice and appropriate if you ask me! :D

Of course if they're rare they will have to be very good for their points because they are up against RBTs... and if they have monster mounts it would only take one dead mount to slow the entire unit down to elfspeed... Maybe if the unit champ could upgrade to one but then in a challenge you would just target the mount so that if they lost they could only flee at the speed of the champ on foot. I suppose they could give them a single statline like the big cav in the Daemonic legion list but they are very expensive...

Starvid
22-12-2006, 12:43
Is lack of efficiency in the heavy cavalry department really the biggest problem for the high elves? Not in my book at least.

ZomboCom
22-12-2006, 13:07
The strike in Initiative order rumour has been completely misinterpreted people.

It doesn't mean they strike in I order when charged, it just means that they all benefit from the swordmaster's special rule, so all great weapon armed troops will not automatically strike last in subsequent rounds of combat.

This DOES NOT mean that they strike in initiative order when charged!

Eldacar
22-12-2006, 13:23
The strike in Initiative order rumour has been completely misinterpreted people.

It doesn't mean they strike in I order when charged, it just means that they all benefit from the swordmaster's special rule, so all great weapon armed troops will not automatically strike last in subsequent rounds of combat.
That would mean that the rule is useless for everybody not armed with Great Weapons (Lords, Heroes, and White Lions are the only other units that would benefit from the current list, off the top of my head). While it would boost the White Lions, it makes the Swordmasters seem much less like Swordmasters, and that would most likely force them to re-introduce some new form of special rule (or resurrect an old one) to ensure that Swordmasters retain abilities that set them apart from more regular elves. It's much more likely that there is a different explanation, I would think.

Eldanar
22-12-2006, 15:08
The strike in Initiative order rumour has been completely misinterpreted people.

It doesn't mean they strike in I order when charged, it just means that they all benefit from the swordmaster's special rule, so all great weapon armed troops will not automatically strike last in subsequent rounds of combat.

This DOES NOT mean that they strike in initiative order when charged!


You have actually got it reversed...

It is not the swordmasters rule; it is that HE's always would strike at initiative, whether charged or charging. I believe great weapon's rules would still be in effect though, except for the swordmasters of course.

Otherwise, as Eldacar said, it would pointless for all HE units except White Lions and great weapon armed characters.

Once again though, this is something "presumably" ;) they are experimenting with. Nothing is set in stone as they are still in the revision stage of the list.

Ender Shadowkin
22-12-2006, 16:34
they are still in the revision stage of the list.

Is that fact (you know it), rumor (someone told you), or opinion :) (your idea based on the fact that the book is not published yet)?

Thanks

Eldanar
22-12-2006, 16:42
Lets just say it comes from a very reliable source.

Besides, as their past codex revisions indicate, they tweak these lists almost up to the date of final submission for publication.

Ender Shadowkin
22-12-2006, 17:26
:@Eldanar
I'd like to use the "Look out Sir!" rule to point out that you droped the codex word in reference to an army book and are about to be bombarded with smarty pants comments, so Duck (or edit :D )


they tweak these lists almost up to the date of final submission for publication.

Well that explains the typos ;)

Thanks, I always felt there are many reasons for an army release date, such as models ready to ship, rules, and pure marketing, For some reason I always thought of the rules being on the shelf for at least a few months before things get sent out. Which I suppose is still on track now that signs are pointing towards June.

Eldacar
22-12-2006, 17:49
Besides, as their past codex revisions indicate
You called it a codex! 40Ker! ;)


Which I suppose is still on track now that signs are pointing towards June.
I'd guess June/the end of June is probably the latest possible time the book could come out, so we're coming up on the start of the "six month window" to the new book if that's the case. I would have initially guessed slightly earlier than June, but then, when rumours start popping up like flies, you'll know that the release date is getting very close. :p

Eldanar
22-12-2006, 17:54
Don't worry...I have the 2+ re-rollable moderators ward save...;)

We know that there are some 40K and some LOTR items on tap for the next couple of months, as well as Empire in a couple of weeks. And June has always been one of their favorite summer months for releases, so I'm going to throw my hat in for then as well.

Gabacho Mk.II
22-12-2006, 20:39
You have actually got it reversed...

It is not the swordmasters rule; it is that HE's always would strike at initiative, whether charged or charging. I believe great weapon's rules would still be in effect though, except for the swordmasters of course.

Otherwise, as Eldacar said, it would pointless for all HE units except White Lions and great weapon armed characters.





Following up on what was said by Eldanar above...

Quite a few months back, there were additional High Elf rumors that were posted on UK websites:

> High Elf foot units getting a 'free re-form' after charges are declared (by opponent) but before charge reactions are made.

> High Elf armies receiving an additional Dispel Dice for every High Elf unit that was Unit Strength 25 or greater, at the beginning of each enemy magic phase.

> Longbow armed High Elf warriors not being subjected to a long range modifier.




There were a few others, but these were the ones that stood out to my eyes.

Any thoughts on this?

Stouty
22-12-2006, 21:03
The foot units getting a reform will make archers bloody dangerous. I wouldn't mind it if it was a free reform when charging but having it when charged is sick.

Picture the scene. That support unit of 5 heavy cavalry has gotten behind the HE lines after a persuit move. You decide you'll charge the archers. They declare a reform. The unit was 16 strong and so now has +2 rank bonus and outnumber. You need to kill 4 to win no doubt. With 6 attacks that just ain't happening.

I guess without knowing the specifics it's impossible to say anything really but it looks very nasty from this bank though the river is wide.

vinush
22-12-2006, 21:05
I do like the idea of that. It would really make them a force to be reckoned with.

It would have to be instead of standing and shooting thought.

Vince.

Gabacho Mk.II
22-12-2006, 21:14
The foot units getting a reform will make archers bloody dangerous. I wouldn't mind it if it was a free reform when charging but having it when charged is sick.



While I agree with you that the free reform makes several 'lesser' units quite more "bloody dangerous," I just think that it would elevate the High Elves to a higher tier, one that would place them in good standing to deal with Chaos and such.

The free reform would be quite dangerous for the High Elves, but the HE are almost always outnumbered, and they shall remain to be so when their 7th ed book comes out. Thusly, I dont fear a single trait (free reform before charges are moved) would tip them over the edge and into invincibility.

Stouty
22-12-2006, 21:20
Oh no, I don't think it will make them invincible but it will certainly make playing them something completely different to usual. Archers would be better in combat than the dwarf missile troops due to static CR, but make of it what you will.

It wouldn't really improve your combat units that much (which reforming before the charge would).

Forse
22-12-2006, 21:37
Have there been any rumours on HE mages? Will their rules be changed at all? Any rumours on the High Magic lore?

Intrepid Adventurer
22-12-2006, 22:19
Something that's been annoying me a bit is the people calling: "If HE get a specific specific racial rule, so should DE/WE!" (Nothing personal guys).

Bullocks, if you ask me. I think it's a bad idea to make the HE and DE lists similar anyway. HE are disciplined, skilled warriors, if not the most skilled and disciplined warriors in the Warhammer World. All those free reform and initiative ideas sound to me like proper ideas to make the HE stand out for once as a unique army, instead of just 'Elves'.

The WE and DE have different cultures and fighting styles. Please let the lists differ as well, to reflect that.

Starvid
22-12-2006, 23:44
Something that's been annoying me a bit is the people calling: "If HE get a specific specific racial rule, so should DE/WE!" (Nothing personal guys).

Bullocks, if you ask me. I think it's a bad idea to make the HE and DE lists similar anyway. HE are disciplined, skilled warriors, if not the most skilled and disciplined warriors in the Warhammer World. All those free reform and initiative ideas sound to me like proper ideas to make the HE stand out for once as a unique army, instead of just 'Elves'.

The WE and DE have different cultures and fighting styles. Please let the lists differ as well, to reflect that.
I have no problem with different special rules for the different elven peoples, but then it would be cultural rules, not racial, no?

Ender Shadowkin
23-12-2006, 00:26
Something that's been annoying me a bit is the people calling: "If HE get a specific specific racial rule, so should DE/WE!" (Nothing personal guys).

Bullocks, if you ask me. I think it's a bad idea to make the HE and DE lists similar anyway. HE are disciplined, skilled warriors, if not the most skilled and disciplined warriors in the Warhammer World. All those free reform and initiative ideas sound to me like proper ideas to make the HE stand out for once as a unique army, instead of just 'Elves'.

The WE and DE have different cultures and fighting styles. Please let the lists differ as well, to reflect that.

I've always thought of Dark and High elves as two sides of the same coin, or Ying verse Yang. Wood elves are what happen when the coin lands on its edge :D They have parralels to each other but are different in very unique ways, like Phoenix Guard vs Black Guard vs eternal guard) or Wardancers vs Swordmaster vs Executioners. I believe this is how they have always tried to paint the elves, and its tough to pull off, but GW has generally done a good job IMHO.

Thus I think they should all have an army wide rule, but that rule should be very differn't, and obviusly HE wont get the two WE army wide specific rules (no move and shoot and free wood penalties). So if the HE charged rule rumor stands we just need to wait to see what they do with the DE.

Akuma
23-12-2006, 11:19
As for HE stricking in I order ... well Tau in 3ed of wh40k supposed to have assoult 2 weapons instead of rapid fire ... and bs of 4 - this were also Confirmed rumours ... HE book is nowhere neer beeing complete ... any confirmed rumours on this stage should be taken with grain of salt - and spear from all 3 ranks should be stuck right in the eye of their posters ;)

exsulis
24-12-2006, 03:54
I concur with what Avian said about unused units being bumped, and the 3/4 over used units(silverhelms, swordmasters, bolt throwers, eagles) taking some kind of hit either rules wise or points wise. Remember how few dwarf miners, or hammers you used to see in the last dwarf book? How about the Griffon banner in the Empire?

I think it was Harry who said it best the only person who knows whats in the High Elf book is Adam Troke, and even then its in a word doc. At this stage the rules could drastically change depending on in Studio testing, and different ideas that get thrown around.

The earliest we could expect to see the book would be 5 months away, and then if the studio wants to put out some kind of extra LftR thing, or a booster for the campaign it could get pushed back after the summer campaign.

So just be patient. :chrome:

northwoodDreamer
24-12-2006, 06:34
I just am wondering why people think the Drake Riders would be a bad thing. I know rules were released for them in a White Dwarf a long time ago just for fun and though I don't remember how powerful they were I thought it was a pretty good idea, and I don't play HE. Also, I have somehow never played Pegasus Knights and am wondering why people are saying GW doesn't want to do that again.

Varath- Lord Impaler
24-12-2006, 08:27
They were released as part of a war of vengeance issue. Dwarfs got some very nasty pieces of kit in that. I wish it could be updated.

EvC
24-12-2006, 12:06
Picture the scene. That support unit of 5 heavy cavalry has gotten behind the HE lines after a persuit move. You decide you'll charge the archers. They declare a reform. The unit was 16 strong and so now has +2 rank bonus and outnumber. You need to kill 4 to win no doubt. With 6 attacks that just ain't happening.

You'll actually have 11 attacks. You should get three kills from the Knights and at least one from the 5 horses, given the High Elves' low toughness and armour save. It's also questionable whether or not the Archers would have been given a banner, meaning only two kills would be necessary.

Frankly, the idea that a unit of Cavalry costing about 120 points shouldn't have any trouble rolling through a unit costing 200+ points, even if it just archers, now that is sick!

Stouty
24-12-2006, 13:06
You'll actually have 11 attacks. You should get three kills from the Knights and at least one from the 5 horses, given the High Elves' low toughness and armour save.

Frankly, the idea that a unit of Cavalry costing about 120 points shouldn't have any trouble rolling through a unit costing 200+ points, even if it just archers, now that is sick!

Suppose I did forget the horsies, though you have to take my point that it would change how you approached the game fairly dramatically. It's almost taken as a given thing that archers will die when charged by a support combat unit because they both lack ranks.

And when you spend 200pts on archers you (should) get roughly 200pts of missile fire, something that generally in the game will die when you actually manage to hit it though.


It's also questionable whether or not the Archers would have been given a banner, meaning only two kills would be necessary.

If they could do that trick I think you'd start to see a fair few banners popping up in 20 man archer units. Also remember that archers tend to hug hills meaning they'd get a high ground bonus, so it's not unreasonable to assume that the support unit will be 5 behind on static combat res

EDIT: when did I say either unit had a banner? Support cavalry don't tend to get anything better than a musician.

EDIT the second: Okay so Avian tells me the horses clinch it for them but it's still a close run thing and if you've taken any casualties it's not going to be pretty (like 1 man down means a statistical victory for the archers).

Oh well, we will see what we will see. It's not going to be game breaking as you have still paid something like 200pts for a croque of sh-te.

Baindread
24-12-2006, 15:10
I concur with what Avian said about unused units being bumped, and the 3/4 over used units(silverhelms, swordmasters, bolt throwers, eagles) taking some kind of hit either rules wise or points wise. Remember how few dwarf miners, or hammers you used to see in the last dwarf book? How about the Griffon banner in the Empire?



OR they leave those units be and make the unused units better which results in the list being balanced both in itself and versus other lists (Of course with the reservation that the list could become too powerful but in this case there is no real immediate danger of that happening). Players are generally more satisfied when something gets better instead of something else getting worse.

EvC
24-12-2006, 15:11
Well, let's face it, 16 Archers is probably going to be lined up in an 8 x 2 formation, and hey, maybe they are on a hill- this CURRENTLY gives them the exact same combat advantage (+3 CR) that you were complaining that they would receive with the hypothesised rules! In fact, allowing them to reform would basically just give them one additional point to the CR (While decreasing the number of Stand and Shooters and Elves in close combat).

So basically this would be a rule that would marginally improve things for High Elves taking a charge... well, it was being suggested as a way of improving elves taking a charge, so what did you expect? ;)

Tobias
25-12-2006, 12:09
But it would be great on lorthern seaguard, that´ll be a unit you can't leave out when such a rule comes. I still take them much with succes, now they only get better. :D

Greystone
26-12-2006, 01:13
I like a few others that have posted here am having a big issue with taking the "strikes on init." rule as meaning even when charged. First off with elven init. this would basically mean that HE would in effect have the "strikes first" rule Vs. a great many troop types even almost whole army's. As said above this would make the HE seem to play much different from my current idea of them as a fast moving precise striking force, with this rule why not just magic/shoot and wait for the enemy to come to you. I am much more inclined to belive that they mean it as said also above to make great weapons strike on init order giving white lions back a reason to be taken and letting HE heroes/lords take a great weapon for a needed str boost while not having to fear being killed before they are able to swing in protracted combat. The swordmasters will be getting a "Boost" as rumored which I think will be a rule to make them more durable perhaps a return of the "arrow turning" rule, which will give you a choice between the super hitty, but fragle white lions, or the hitty but more survivable Sword masters. I have no "source" to back any of this up, but it just feels to me to be a more reasonable way to take the meaning of the rule.

sulla
26-12-2006, 01:46
Seems a roundabout way of writing the rule though... If they just wanted to boost elven great weapons they should just write a rule for 'elven great weapons' that allows them to always fight at initiative. Not some grand army-encompassing rule.

Hellebore
26-12-2006, 03:02
Perhaps they could simply make the 1st rank of spearelves strike at I even when charged, and the 2nd and 3rd ranks striking last, to represent elven relfexes and the length of the spear (an elf with a spear is almost as deadly as a human with a 15 foot pike).

Just an option.

Hellebore

Move Fast Hit Low
26-12-2006, 03:49
there is someone on asur.org.uk who has read the HE book, and he has said that all elves striking on intiative order is wrong, of course thats the only thing he said

truthsayer
26-12-2006, 10:52
there is someone on asur.org.uk who has read the HE book, and he has said that all elves striking on intiative order is wrong, of course thats the only thing he said

Its nothing much really. Giladis just says that the strikes first rule is not true.

http://www.asur.org.uk/ulthuan/viewtopic.php?t=16749&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Oh, and they are using our roundup as a base to go off.

Ender Shadowkin
26-12-2006, 19:49
Its nothing much really. Giladis just says that the strikes first rule is not true.

http://www.asur.org.uk/ulthuan/viewtopic.php?t=16749&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Oh, and they are using our roundup as a base to go off.

Well he was sufficinety vague about it, He just said the statement "all high elf units will strike in initiative" order is wrong" Which is obviously wrong, if you consider an Eagle or chariot a High Elf unit (because its a unit choice in the high elf book). that still leaves the door wide open for things like all High Elves strike in intitive order, or all unmounted high elves, or all elves with citizen levy . . .

Somebody else also posted indication Giladis was being sneaky in some way.

Long live Rumors!

_Ashdil_
27-12-2006, 01:02
Some thought on swordmasters. I dont think they are worth thier 13p cost by a long shot. They lake the armour to stay alive, and lack the A to pack a real punch.
We might see some chnages to get them along the lines of the blind dude Eltharion, having a few "dances" to choose from. But they will prob stay in rank and file, and so makes them different from wardancers. And they will prob not get as many dances as Eltharion (who will most likely be in the new book) so that he still owns everyone.
That would make thier uses more diverse. And one dance might be deflect arrows, that is used not in CC but when you move, they stay more alert vs missle fire incoming. Cant see that work vs blackpowder though.

PG should be unbreakable, and thats that!

Spears, heavy armour, cost 10p.
Archers, well something needs to be done, and cheaper!

But from what has been done with Empire, I think we can see infantry becoming cheaper overall, one or two new units, some new characters. Make cav a tad bit worse (silver helms anyways)
But I hope for some new magic items, that was the really boring part for Empire, with one really bad new banner...
A few special rules get trashed, a prob a few new ones enter where the old ones went.

With that, they will be overall better, and more fun and diverse to play with.

Petey
27-12-2006, 01:24
Here's my guess on the Swords masters of Hoeth
They will all be armed with witchblades. Yes you heard me, 2+ to wound for all, they will not even be great weapons that don t strike last, they ll be swordmaster weapons, like with the wardancers. Remember you heard it here first.

lol, seriously though, my guess that it ll be like that in some, way always wounding on a 3+ or having +2 S on a charge +1 and strike first every other, and arrow cutting will make it back in, i have no doubt. They love their swordsmasters, i can't imagine they ll suck in the new book.

sulla
27-12-2006, 04:30
Perhaps they could simply make the 1st rank of spearelves strike at I even when charged, and the 2nd and 3rd ranks striking last, to represent elven relfexes and the length of the spear (an elf with a spear is almost as deadly as a human with a 15 foot pike).

Just an option.

Hellebore

You mean High-Elven reflexes right? All those DE and WE should remain as slack witted to enemy charges as the rest of the old world right?;)

Sulla:angel:

Eldacar
27-12-2006, 04:59
Which is obviously wrong, if you consider an Eagle or chariot a High Elf unit (because its a unit choice in the high elf book). that still leaves the door wide open for things like all High Elves strike in intitive order, or all unmounted high elves, or all elves with citizen levy . . .
Rather than trying to twist it around so that it appears to be a "mostly correct" rumour rather than a "completely correct" rumour, I'm going to guess that he meant the rumour as a whole is wrong. As in, it's wrong even if you do twist the wording around somewhat to exclude Eagles et all.


You mean High-Elven reflexes right? All those DE and WE should remain as slack witted to enemy charges as the rest of the old world right?
DE aren't anywhere near being revised yet, so nobody knows what they'll recieve. For all you know, they might get a similar/the same rule. ;)

The game is afoot
28-12-2006, 14:51
I'd be quite happy for the High Elves to geta little technology boost to keep them separate from the wood Elves.
Right now they are just a poor imitation of the Wood Elf list.
This is poor as they have their own continent and active society.
They are not habitually reclusive, they trade etc.
Give them some gizmos and beef them up.
Let the Swordmasters and Phoenix Guard be worthwhile options.
They simply do not deliver for the points investment.

The Old Scholar
29-12-2006, 09:59
I'm not too familiar with 7th edition rules, but I remember in 6th edition a winning unit in combat will strike first in the following round(s). If this rule remains, and this reported rumor of High Elves striking in Initiative order is true, then it is an interesting way of preserving the "swift yet fragile" concept the designers have always intended, allowing for elves to strike first regardless of the combat circumstances...cool.

I was wondering if this "power" was not a possible new spell or perhaps a special unit affecting Honour. Within this line of thinking, are there any rumors about the High Elf Honours? I've always thought Honours were rather cool and separated High Elves from other races--including their cousins.

I hope the reported fifth hero will be Belannaer--a swordmaster-mage.

Cenyu
29-12-2006, 10:09
I'm not too familiar with 7th edition rules, but I remember in 6th edition a winning unit in combat will strike first in the following round(s).

Only if the initiative value of both units is tied.

Eldroth
29-12-2006, 10:22
Within this line of thinking, are there any rumors about the High Elf Honours? I've always thought Honours were rather cool and separated High Elves from other races--including their cousins.

I hope the reported fifth hero will be Belannaer--a swordmaster-mage.

One of the foremost beefs I've had with the current trends of rules design has been centred upon this generic "skills upgrade" section that has seemingly permeated every Army Book. You have the Honours for High Elves, Kindreds for Wood Elves, Virtues for Bretonnians, Bloodlines for Vampire Counts etc. While what they attempt to achieve is characterful, I just feel it could be structured a little better, and more appropriately for each race. It feels bland to just change the name each time. A negligible irk, but an irk all the same.

I'll second that call for Belannaer! One of the most useful characters of 5th Edition, and an appropriate accomplice for Teclis from the White Tower. The prospects of a Hallar model as well would be wonderful!

Eldacar
29-12-2006, 10:29
The prospects of a Hallar model as well would be wonderful!
I don't think the HE will get Hallar. Some of the 5th edition AB SCs are probably likely, but Hallar wasn't one of them.

Haquim
29-12-2006, 16:25
i could confirm that Drake riders will be out from the book

Cavatore said:"We already know the mistake done with Pegasus riders for Brets,we will not continue in this way..no drakes riders for HE"

And also:

"..but the He Prince on Dragon...well....let's say that it could get a very very nasty big magic lance to strike down enemy units...hint hint..."

...Shoggoth... Sometimes you could give credit where credit's due, especially knowing I read these boards... :rolleyes:

Btw yes those are Alessio's words at the last Italian GD, he also said they're thinking about a way to reflect in the game the strong link between HE and Dragons (about the pegasi: he said if they were to do the Bretonnians right now they'd probably make them rare... the problem is not they are too strong, one unit would be OK, the problem is you can get 4 units of them...)


ah.. the rightly feared Elven-Flyswatter/Lance.. ;)


what's kinda annoying IMO is: they see that new über-units aren't the way to go.. but they think that characters-on-monsters-with-überweapons are, because it was so much fun in past editions when those rolled up a whole battlefield on their own.. :rolleyes:

Let's make this clear: I asked Alessio if they were thinking about giving HE something "similar" to the pegasi knights, his answer was the one reported above. Then I asked if it could be possible to make the prince a better choice because I think the Archmage is still much better. He didn't seem very convinced stressing that choosing an Archmage with the new miscast rules is VERY dangerous and that makes other choices more interesting. Anyway he added there will be a way to give an High Elven prince mounted on dragon a powerful magic lance allowing him to be really good.
To me this makes sense both backgound-wise and game-wise and to be honest I don't see a TH3 character mounted on dragon as the return of herohammer. He can have great striking power but it will be difficult to use especially against shooty armies. It will be no chaos dragon of Tzeentch IMHO.

EvC
29-12-2006, 18:43
Darke Riders are almost certainly out then (Thank God), but it'd be neat if Commanders could ride Drakes. Being able to turn the prophesized more generalised plastic Dragon kit into either a swift-looking Drake or a monstrous massive Dragon would make this a great option. Perhaps there'd even be the possibility of bringing back the three levels of Dragons (Normal, Great and Emperor I believe they were called in 4th edition). I think one thing that is almost certainly going to be in the rules will be that putting a Prince on a Dragon won't take up a Rare choice, thereby making them that little bit more attractive.

sulla
29-12-2006, 20:00
I think one thing that is almost certainly going to be in the rules will be that putting a Prince on a Dragon won't take up a Rare choice, thereby making them that little bit more attractive.

I doubt that very much... It's not like princes on dragons were a weakness of the old book that needed improving.

EvC
29-12-2006, 20:13
Well I'm probably being a bit hasty... it may still take up an additional Hero slot. We'll see.

superczhunk
29-12-2006, 20:54
Why not just let the High Elves take an unmounted Dragon as a rare or rare + hero? They don't need drake riders, it's too much like the Brets' pegasi riders.

Valdios
30-12-2006, 00:34
i don't think HE's need drake riders, because its not like the backround describe. there are only a few dragons out there and to wake one up is very difficult, only a few men can do that. it would be bad to see a flying He dragon circus. you all know the dragonriders on horses, they are "drake riders" wothout dragons, because there are not enough dragons to ride on them ^^.

the great eagles a very cool and better than drake riders i think. it would be much cooler to put a prince on ah great eagle and not on a dragon. imrik should be the only on with a dragon under his *** ^^.

please concentrate more on the He infantry (white lions, maiden guard and maybe new units) *hope*

greets

Deathjester
30-12-2006, 01:26
Well considering the new orc & goblin book, and the new empire book, i don't think that anything will be 0-1, and i don't think that any of the choices will take up more than a single choice.

It's seems to be the way they are looking at things now (the points cost is deterent enough in most cases).

As for release date, i think we're look at September due to the Warhammer releases this summer with the campaign.

sulla
30-12-2006, 01:38
please concentrate more on the He infantry (white lions, maiden guard and maybe new units) *hope*

greets
Yes, the infantry is the key. Magic is good (other than a first spell that only works on foot :rolleyes: ), Items are cool and I think the points reduction is very fluffy, cav are fine; perhaps SH are a little underpriced but not massively so, chariots and RBT are great value for money, characters are of comparable power level to all other Elf characters. I@C is characterful but probably a little too powerful as it encourages less characters. Probably it would be better if it only came into play on a 1d6 roll or a 6 or somesuch.

Infantry is the real problem. The hw&shield rule was particularly punishing to elves as hordes could often get better as in combat than these elites (why HE and DE spears didn't get heavy armour I don't know and even better armour for the elite choices would have been appreciated too). Plus they are extremely vulnerable to magic and missile fire and usually operate at -1CR due to being outnumbered. It is extremely frustrating to play infantry that you are scared to get into combat with anything better than fast cav in the game.

I also don't see why Elven magic users cost such a premium in the game...just why should a lvl1 magic user with elven stats cost 25pts more than a necromancer or skink priest or 30pts more than human wizard? Nonsense if you ask me.

Sulla

Eldroth
30-12-2006, 08:30
I don't think the HE will get Hallar. Some of the 5th edition AB SCs are probably likely, but Hallar wasn't one of them.

Hence the optative force of "would be wonderful". I quite agree, the odds are for the inclusion of Alarielle/Belannaer/Eltharion over the Swordmaster Captain. A pity, as Hallar's hack'n'slash would have made for some interesting translation into rules as well as model.

Eldacar
30-12-2006, 08:55
Hence the optative force of "would be wonderful".
I know. I was just clarifying for people who don't have the 5th edition AB.

EvC
30-12-2006, 13:55
I also don't see why Elven magic users cost such a premium in the game...just why should a lvl1 magic user with elven stats cost 25pts more than a necromancer or skink priest or 30pts more than human wizard? Nonsense if you ask me.

I guess for the +1 to Dispel coupled with the slightly better stats, access to cheap magic items and free extra spell if you use High Magic...

Haquim
30-12-2006, 16:29
Darke Riders are almost certainly out then (Thank God), but it'd be neat if Commanders could ride Drakes. Being able to turn the prophesized more generalised plastic Dragon kit into either a swift-looking Drake or a monstrous massive Dragon would make this a great option. Perhaps there'd even be the possibility of bringing back the three levels of Dragons (Normal, Great and Emperor I believe they were called in 4th edition).

... They are thinking on it. Different dragon sizes is a definite possibility, strangely enough, IMHO, while chromatic dragons are not (or so it seems...). I believe they won't give dragons Th7+, because with 6th (and 7th) edition they chose to allow everyone a chance at wounding, and made 6 the highest Th in the game (well, not considering buffed up Ogre Characters and the Hell Cannon...)

Btw the reasoning behind elven elites is sound, IMHO: elves fight as elites, they are described as lethal fighters but their stats make them little better than goblins. Instead of making them cheaper they are considering making them stronger. Of course they will still be fragile and costy and that will make them difficult to use, yet an experienced general will be repaid when his strategy allows his elven elites to crush his opponent in HtH (on the other hand the inexperienced general will be crushed by shooting and magic...)

DragonPup
30-12-2006, 16:37
And don't forget the versitility of being able to take any of the 8 Winds or their own High Magic.

sulla
30-12-2006, 22:18
I guess for the +1 to Dispel coupled with the slightly better stats, access to cheap magic items and free extra spell if you use High Magic...



And don't forget the versitility of being able to take any of the 8 Winds or their own High Magic.

My mistake... I thought those bonuses were only for HE mages.:D

Gabacho Mk.II
31-12-2006, 00:17
I'm not too familiar with 7th edition rules, but I remember in 6th edition a winning unit in combat will strike first in the following round(s). If this rule remains, and this reported rumor of High Elves striking in Initiative order is true, then it is an interesting way of preserving the "swift yet fragile" concept the designers have always intended, allowing for elves to strike first regardless of the combat circumstances...cool.




Totally agreed.

Any sort of 'umph' for the High Elves would definitely give them (the HE army) a bite that is quite lacking.

Let's hope that GW has redone the armylist so that the High Elves can, at the very least, challenge Chaos and similar armies with the tools needed to defeat their given opponents with something other than "all cavalry lists" or "cheap magic items."

The SkaerKrow
31-12-2006, 03:31
I can't say that I'm a big fan of this "strike in Initiative order" idea, especially not with High Elven Spearmen. We might as well just give them Pikes. I completely agree that High Elves need *something,* but I don't think that "nearly always strikes first" is the answer.

Eldacar
31-12-2006, 06:29
I can't say that I'm a big fan of this "strike in Initiative order" idea, especially not with High Elven Spearmen.
Er... somebody who has seen the book (or what will become the book, or what have you) has confirmed that it's an incorrect rumour. ;)

The SkaerKrow
31-12-2006, 07:56
Er... somebody who has seen the book (or what will become the book, or what have you) has confirmed that it's an incorrect rumour. ;)

Oh good. I just still see it being batted around here, and wasn't sure how dead that it was.

Petey
31-12-2006, 10:32
Though you all may doubt me, there is precedent in Warhammer fluff for Drake Riders. They existed as late as 3rd Edition, see Warhammer Armies, Page 48 Elven Dragonkin.
Now i can see that they wouldn't be as strong as a dragon, but i make claim that we will see them again.
The claim was made, and it's very confirmed, that HE will be getting old units back, i m (right now in fact) looking through one of the oldest of high elf lists, and the only things i m thinking it could be is the drakes.
Heck, this list has sea elf wardancers, I don't think those will be coming back to HE. And all the other listed units have modern analogs.

Here the complete list, for all of you to see for yourselves. Keep in mind that these are listed in the order they appear.

Elven Dragonkin = ??
Silver Helms = Silver Helms
Shore Riders = Ellyrian Reavers
Warwains = HE Chariot
Archers = archers
Ship Companies = LSG
Guard = Eternal guard
Kith = (basic handweapon and shield troop which can be bought up to spearmen) Spearmen
Merchant Companies = also Sea Guard but can have a magic instrument
Warrior Kindreds (basic troop which can be bought up to great weapon troop) making this seem like white lions
Sea Elf Wardancers = I'ld say Swords masters
Seekers = Shadow Warriors
Marine Bolt Batteries = RBT (on a side note, they used to have 3 crew)

Which of the above would be the "new unit returning?"

Butyi
31-12-2006, 12:21
I think this is a far too old list for a reference. I also expect an "old" unit to come back again, as was done in the O&G and Empire books (Spider Riders; Outriders). My guess is far more unspectacular, as I simply expect the Maiden Guard to come back. I know there are already rules for them, but they are not in the army book after all. Boring, but most likely in my eyes. :o

silverstu
31-12-2006, 12:55
yes but it depends what the maiden guard can do if they are brought back. I doubt they would reintroduce a unit just to have elf chicks with spears as a new option. They would be adding another dimension to the list, but as no-one has seen the list yet[or is telling if they have] i wouldn't rush to right off a returning unit type as at this point no-one knows what rules they might have or how they will integrate or augment the new list- we don't even know how th list as a whole will work yet. Stay optimistic. And no- i know nothing other than what i read here.

Bun Bun
31-12-2006, 12:55
If memory serves rightly the Maiden Guard could only be taken if the Everqueen was part of the army.

Corrupt
31-12-2006, 13:36
Maiden Guard
Nice and interesting choice.
Really just a female version of Lother Sea Guard without shields though.

What elves need is heavy armour for spearmen. Maybe some kind of "Mithril Armour" or something for a 4+ base save as per full plate to give to PG(who could be unbreakable hopefull) and Swordmasters. And something to give them that "kick" they lack atm.

Karrlov
31-12-2006, 14:58
Wheh?
I don't get this: first, everyone seems convinced that VC are released after Empire (Including the staff in my own GW-store)
Now suddenly High Elves are getting their turn?
This is bad... High Elves look quite cool! VC are more in need for new models if you ask me?
Oh well... We'll see.
I still hope it's the VC which get their release...

Killshot
31-12-2006, 15:53
Wheh?
I don't get this: first, everyone seems convinced that VC are released after Empire (Including the staff in my own GW-store)
Now suddenly High Elves are getting their turn?
This is bad... High Elves look quite cool! VC are more in need for new models if you ask me?
Oh well... We'll see.
I still hope it's the VC which get their release...


Sorry dude, the HE are next.

All this speculation will be answered come the Watchman in January!

Arhalien
31-12-2006, 18:05
Sorry dude, the HE are next.

All this speculation will be answered come the Watchman in January!

I seriously can;t wait.
That;s where Harry's got his new rumour page now isn;t it?

Ludaman
31-12-2006, 18:55
The watchman is indeed where harry has gone with his rumours... by the sound of things this upcomming issue will be great for rumours.

Harry
31-12-2006, 20:37
The watchman is indeed where harry has gone with his rumours... by the sound of things this upcomming issue will be great for rumours.

The irony of it all. Rumours about a rumour page!
This could be just a rumour of course put about to increase interest in the Watchman.

Don't you boys be getting too excited about what I am and am not going to be clearing up of you. (Regarding High Elves.)

This is what I said on page 3 of this thread.


The book exists as a word document at this stage. It has not even started to be made shiney yet.
Whilst it is possible that some of these rumours may be coming from 'better than average' sources and are based on 'snippets' of information from the current draft version of the book, any and all of these 'details' are subject to change.
The fact is only the writer of the book really knows what is 'solid' and will be 'in' and what he is still 'undecided' about and may yet change and he may even change his mind about this!
The only truely reliable source's name (at this stage) begins with 'A' (and ends with dam Troke).... and so far he has posted no rumours.

I have decided not to discuss what I have heard about what IS in and IS NOT in the High Elf book. (at this stage)
Not because I have decided High Elf players are a funny lot, although.... but because as I said above the book only exists as an unfinished document. It will not even be in draft PDF format for over a month from now! I simply do not think it is fair for to start to pull something to pieces before it has even been put together. (which sadly, experience tells me, is what will happen.)

(And I have decided to like Adam Troke.:D )

DeClaw
01-01-2007, 02:20
Sorry for the OT, but who or what is The watchman? And if Harry is posting roumours there how do I get there? And I aggree thet it is still to soon for rules rumours of any strong staying power, but by now more details of the upcomming plastics may be arriving?

Jhayden
01-01-2007, 07:43
Totally agreed.

Any sort of 'umph' for the High Elves would definitely give them (the HE army) a bite that is quite lacking.

Let's hope that GW has redone the armylist so that the High Elves can, at the very least, challenge Chaos and similar armies with the tools needed to defeat their given opponents with something other than "all cavalry lists" or "cheap magic items."

Not to poop all over your argument, but with my High Elves I routinely destroy all sorts of chaos...you just need to play to the High Elf strengths.

In one day I beat two great Beastmen players, a Slaanesh player and then an Undivided army. Just play to the strengths of High Elves (Magic and Cavalry), play defense and they'll fall very easily.

Master Vampire
01-01-2007, 10:51
Wheh?
I don't get this: first, everyone seems convinced that VC are released after Empire (Including the staff in my own GW-store)
Now suddenly High Elves are getting their turn?
This is bad... High Elves look quite cool! VC are more in need for new models if you ask me?
Oh well... We'll see.
I still hope it's the VC which get their release...

Sadly, High Elves are coming earlier :P Not offending High Elves though - they need the update.

What about some sort of High Elf guard? Give them options to take heavy armor and spear. Basic equipment: lt armor, hw and shield. Why the fuss about spears anyway.

Ps. What's this Watchman this about? Can anybody link me?

Cheers,
-MV

Eldacar
01-01-2007, 11:01
The Watchman is an E-zine. I don't think it's had an inaugural issue yet, though.

silverstu
01-01-2007, 15:35
Ah the Lothern Sea Guard, a metal unit including a peg legged standard bearer, a commander with a Sea Eagle and a champion with twin whaling spears and eye patch.

I love GW's pirate fixation :cool:

Now that sounds like a cool looking unit- just hope they have lost their pantaloon phase...

The Judge
01-01-2007, 16:42
"Gnarly" High Elf Pirates does seem to be the best word to go with them from that description.

"Arrr me hearties" in finely cultured elven?

They'll be different from spearmen and archers at last though, instead of being over-pointed "jack of all trades and master of none."

Khabuldashudeth
01-01-2007, 19:02
is there any way the 'strikes at initiative' could work? if, for example, the elves get first strike when charged but the enemy get to attack back at full force ('charge impetuous' or something) - would that be an advantage (or enough of one) at all?

Master Vampire
01-01-2007, 19:55
is there any way the 'strikes at initiative' could work? if, for example, the elves get first strike when charged but the enemy get to attack back at full force ('charge impetuous' or something) - would that be an advantage (or enough of one) at all?

Well if you mean the Elves will still kill a bunch, it does help in CR. You can test on higher numbers, if you lose the battle. The enemy unit will also contain less models, off course.

sabre4190
01-01-2007, 19:56
Here are my hopes for high elves, model and rule wise:
-New plastic spearmen. The current plastic ones lack one thing: shoulders. There is no real balance to the model. While every concept scetch/pic of the elves shows them having armor on their shoulders, the current ones dont. I actually like the old fifth edition models more, since they are solid units.
-New archers. Good overall look, just needs some refining. I actually would like to see light armor become standard and have a form of mail on them, but thats just me.
-New swordmasters. great models, they just need to look a little more dynamic.
-new silverhelms would be good, but i think the current ones are just fine so I don't really care too much.

Rules wise
-High elf spearmen should be a little cheaper imo. One point should do it. While they are strong, when compared to a chaos warrior they seem a little expensive.
-Dragon princes need some kind of new rule. For a special calvary choice, you are faster and have a higher weapons skill. I would just take silver helms and save the special slot. I dont know if i would give them an extra attack, since that would make them a mandatory choice, but they need something.
-Phoenix guard. Fear just isnt working. They are expensive, cause little damage and need big units to properly utilize fear. I have never had success with these guys and they always do so-so.
-fix up archers a little. compared to wood elves, these guys are a waste of points. make them cheaper, or bring back the shoot in two ranks rule.

i do have a bunch of minor recommendations, such as honors based on the provinces or an addition of a new unit or two, but these are the thing that come to mind.

Gabacho Mk.II
01-01-2007, 22:17
... Just play to the strengths of High Elves (Magic and Cavalry), play defense and they'll fall very easily.


That is just i; I dont wish to play with all cavalry or heavy magic HE armies. Maybe I am too old fashioned, but I would like to game WFB with 'balanced armies,' regardless of which army I am gaming with.

Thus, especially given your reliance on heavy magic or cavalry armies, I strongly believe that the HE army is just too narrow of a list to game with right now. Again, this is what I (and I bet thousands of other gamers) wish to stay away from.

Why is it that I get clubbed on the head (while playing with HE balanced armies) when I do field spearmen, White Lions, Eagles, Bolt Throwers, Archers and etc.? Maybe it is due to the fact that these choices are quite lacking any sort of staying power and strength,.... while all cavalry or heavy magic armies have the necessary "pow" needed to overcome their opponents?

Petey
02-01-2007, 08:45
@ Gabacho Mk.II I don't have the same experience at all with the elves (the clubbed in the head one) though i don't field white lions. I think the problem is elven structure and use currently

most spear blocks can afford to sit and wait for opponents to come to them. I feel the high elf one can't. if you do so, you lose the use of M 5. When i use spear blocks (which is seldom as my list is a shooty list) I tend to use 2 or three and move rapidly to take the center. In most cases, your light expensive armored troops just die to shooting attacks, they just can't weather the ranged. So by rapidly moving ahead, you can charge and destroy the shooters who 've been vexing you. If you hang back, you just give the enemy more time to kill you with. And unlike a lot of elf players i use strictly 25 man blocks making them interchangeable. So if one fails you, the other one or two can finish the job

I agree that the army is underpowered, but it ll only take a minor revision to fix the holes. (Hell all you need to do is repaint the house that is Wood elves in different colours, and you ll have High Elves) The emphasis will be a little different than Woodies, but really, they don't need much more than what they have.

Sylass
02-01-2007, 14:41
Hi,

could someone who closely followed the discussion here please send me a summary of the latest state of info connected to the HE?

The initial post had a list of rumours, how did that list change during the development of this thread? I'd like to add the more or less confirmed rumours to the Rumour Roundup, but I don't have the time to read 14+ pages of posts. :skull:

Thanks in advance. :)

-Sylass.

Harry
02-01-2007, 15:50
This thread has developed much like the other High Elf thread.
We are nowhere!
The whole High Elf debate started to soon for a rumour thread.
There simply is not enough solid info about because we are still over six months away the folk that do know stuff are not posting it. I said a looooong time ago (on the other thread) not to start looking for High Elf rumours until after the Empire release,

Only about 50% of the list at the start is correct.

What can be gleaned from these threads is.

High Elves are next.
Adam Troke is writting the book.
Adam has not finished yet.

The Empire release 13 January
The Watchman release 15 January;)

Highborn
04-01-2007, 02:37
Six months away? aww ... I was hoping to see them a month or two after the Dark Angels release.

*sighs and goes back to his Wood Elves*

Arhalien
04-01-2007, 10:51
The Empire release 13 January
The Watchman release 15 January;)


Harry, i wish you;d stop being so cryptic. I know that there's some hidden meaning here but I can't for the life of me work it out ;)

Achilles
04-01-2007, 14:22
The watchman, as i understand it, is a Webzine...
It probably contains info about the High Elves... :D
as it is 'After' the Empire release...

at least thats what i read into it, Harry ;)
now if i just can find out where to read this 'Watchman' Arrrrgh

erion
04-01-2007, 20:41
Is the Spring/ Summer 2007 release time frame for the High Elves pretty solid?

Lab Monkey
04-01-2007, 21:10
drake riders..

anyone? :D

Master Vampire
04-01-2007, 21:41
That is just i; I dont wish to play with all cavalry or heavy magic HE armies. Maybe I am too old fashioned, but I would like to game WFB with 'balanced armies,' regardless of which army I am gaming with.

Vampire Counts don't have any shooting or big beasties. TK do have those, just no hordes nor real elites (Tomb Guard excluded), and instead big beasties and shooting. :cheese:


Is the Spring/ Summer 2007 release time frame for the High Elves pretty solid?

No, even though Harry says so :D

It would certainly not go well together - the summer campaign and a new HE release, albeit maybe even just some new models and mainly new rules. The HE aren't the main protagonists. Dwarfs are for the good side, and rumored is Vampire Counts for the evil side.

This would fit for the new release of the VC in September-December somewhere... at least Q3-Q4.

High Elves should be coming in 3-4 months, in May or June. Would be odd, with such a gap, just when GW wanted to speed up bringing out new armies.

Cheers,
-MV

adreal
04-01-2007, 23:40
It's not odd, the gap I mean, there is a space marine army getting released after empire, so anything getting a new book has to wait

Baindread
05-01-2007, 00:16
Dark Angels army deal is released 14 Feb. or something like that which means their main release is somewhere around late Feb.- early march. Skipping ahead two months to the next release window we end up in may-june, fittingly when HE are rumoured to be released. Skipping ahead again we end up in august-september, prolly when the campaign is coming. And then December, VC.

Harry
05-01-2007, 00:44
Is the Spring/ Summer 2007 release time frame for the High Elves pretty solid?
'Solid' Not so much. I think I first posted April, then May then June now I am not sure we will even see them by June. They may be later still? So solid is not the word I would use. Fluid is a better term.


[QUOTE]It would certainly not go well together - the summer campaign and a new HE release,
Maybe, maybe not! Maybe it will get left till after. Maybe the summer campaign will not be tied to any one race so they will not need to worry about it.

albeit maybe even just some new models and mainly new rules. :confused: Have you seen the last army releases???

The HE aren't the main protagonists. Dwarfs are for the good side, and rumored is Vampire Counts for the evil side.
What makes you think this?


This would fit for the new release of the VC in September-December somewhere... at least Q3-Q4.
A four month window...prediction nearly as acurate as mine:D


High Elves should be coming in 3-4 months,
'Should be'??? Thats what I thought. But I was wrong.


in May or June. Would be odd, with such a gap, just when GW wanted to speed up bringing out new armies.
What makes you think they want to speed up army releases?

Maybe they decided they had other priorities and created the gap for other stuff.
Maybe it became a bigger project.
Maybe if it swapped with VC it couldn't happen in time.
Maybe when they re-release an army now they really on't to make a splash not just a few insignificant changes and models.

My feeling is that now that all the armies have a book and range of minis unless/until there is loads to bring to an army it will not get rereleased.

Achilles
05-01-2007, 12:01
My feeling is that now that all the armies have a book and range of minis unless/until there is loads to bring to an army it will not get rereleased.

Are you making a 'fluid' hint towards a release of an army that does not have a book? :p
...like Chaos dwarfs?:D

Dosadi
05-01-2007, 13:54
<speculation>

I'm inclined to agree with Harry on this. Each army now has a book that stands up well under the 7th. edition rules (please don't start listing off issues with books, I know, I know. :p).
GW can spend some time catching up on things that they've always wanted to do, but couldn't fit into the schedule because there were army books to be done (or the players would cry foul!). So we've got things like the new Mighty Empires comming out along with some rumoured new kits for siege and navel battles and a bunch of other stuff that's got me all excited. :angel:

We know that there will be releases for armies leading up the summer campaign like there were for 40k before Medussa. GW could use this an an oppertunity to update some of the older models out there and fill in the gaps (are there any gaps?) in the miniature range. Perhaps this is where the rumours of HE being next came from. Someone saw some new HE models and made the assumption that they would be comming soon. These could just be something to tie the HE players over and give them some new hotness for the Nemesis War.
We've been told that Brian Nelson is hard at work designing the new VC stuff and October would be a perfect time to release a "horror" themed army, what with Halloween and all. I'm kinda hoping it's VC next as I have little intrest in making an army for them, so this will let me put my time and money towards all the goodies that will be comming out over the summer.
Mighty Empires here I come!:D


Dosadi

Achilles
05-01-2007, 14:01
I think using splash releases is the way to go for GW in the future anyway... not everything with a new armybook, as it gives your army some love over the years to come. this way a campaign, or a theme/background book can be supporded with mini's for all different races.

Lordsaradain
05-01-2007, 16:08
H - I@C will be removed


Whats I@C?

veneto
05-01-2007, 16:43
Intrigue at Court I believe.

Kellindel
05-01-2007, 17:33
You are correct.

Prince Sairion
05-01-2007, 18:47
I personally reckon that Adam Troke (Inquisitor Rex????) has looked at the last HE rumour thread with a large brown stain growing larger by the day near his back passage at the amount of discontentment surrounding the HE list at present and how 'nothing will be good enough' and he's had to re-think. Possible.

Splash releases are hilarious. That's it kids, go out now and spend your shiny pound coins on black orcs now, then we'll release a plastic alternative that you'll want just as much in a year or so. What's that I hear???? Ch-Ching???

Whatever happens with the Highest of Elves, I hope, above all things I hope for in the Warhammer hobby right now. That they get T4. Joke;)

Ender Shadowkin
05-01-2007, 19:20
I personally reckon that Adam Troke (Inquisitor Rex????) has looked at the last HE rumour thread with a large brown stain growing larger by the day near his back passage at the amount of discontentment surrounding the HE list at present and how 'nothing will be good enough' and he's had to re-think. Possible.


I highly doubt that. Not everything was bad, and regardless I don't think Warseer represents a significant cross section of the warhammer players. Thousands of people play High Elves (yes some of those probably don't even have internet access). To base a conclusion off of 5 or 6 people with negative comments wouldn't seam logical. Who know how many people didn't post on the thread anyway, people have a tendancy to only post when they have a complaint.

I bet the GW team of artists and playtesters are the most significant form of feedback the book writer will use, instead of feedback on dicey rumors taken out of context from the entire book (which isn't finished).

silverstu
05-01-2007, 20:05
.

Splash releases are hilarious. That's it kids, go out now and spend your shiny pound coins on black orcs now, then we'll release a plastic alternative that you'll want just as much in a year or so. What's that I hear???? Ch-Ching???



Yes it's terrible when they release new models that you really want to collect because you are really into collecting small minis and if they can't do it immediately best not release em at all.. I mean why do they need to make money at all? they only employ a few hundred people..
Sorry but I do get tired of this complaining about releasing new versions of established models- i like having soimething new to expand collection with, and yes the company which makes the models and game systems I really enjoy does have to make money- it's not a bloody charity and it's not like it's a necessity for life.
Rant over and apologies.

Jhayden
05-01-2007, 20:09
I would like to see something done to the archers personally. They're just so bad for their points. Not flavor at all.

Since they're newer recruits I would make their weapon skill a 3, and then give them High Elven Longbows.

High Elven Longbows
+1 to hit in short range.

This would counter-balance the Wood Elves Gladeguard bows and actually make the high elf archers useful.

These same bows would make their way into Shadow Warrior and Ellyrian Reaver units.

You can either trade in your longbow for a High Elven Longbow for 5 points.

Also, an increase of innate Weapon Skill in most units would be great, considering High Elf soldiers are supposed to be more lithe and graceful in their movements.

To make Lothern Seaguard useful, increase their base weapon skill to 5. They may not upgrade their standard bows at all and they can keep their points cost.

Increase Dragon princes weaponskill to 6. They're supposed to be elite troops who are born into royalty. Why they're the same weaponskill wise as a Pheonix Guard is beyond me.

Ellyrian Reavers, give them bows as standard instead of making me either buy them or trade them in for my spear. The only reason they're useful is because they can take bows, so why not just give them to them?

Make White Lions skirmishers. This may be a long shot but they just scream skrimishing unit to me. Increase their points cost by 2 for the skirmishing bonus.

Pheonix Guard. Well, they're pretty neat I guess, although the only special ability they have is that they cause fear, which isn't that fantastic at all. Besides being able to cause fear, they're not that fantastic. Give them an innate Ward Save, something like a 6+. As beings who know exactly when they're going to die, I don't see how this wouldn't help them out. Also the fact that they only have heavy armor makes them easy to take out with ranged weapons.

Swordmasters of Hoeth. Increase their Initiative by 1 and make all shooting towards them with bows and guns suffer a -1 penalty to hit since they're supposed to be able to deflect arrows with their massive swords.

Great Eagles. Give them an armor save. Even a 5+ would be nice. I can't tell you how many times I have charged with a great eagle only to have it killed by small attacks.

Spearmen. They're fine I guess. Being able to attack in three ranks is fantastic, but if they changed the rule around that would be nice too. For instance if they worded it "Always attacks with an additional rank" instead of three ranks. This way on the charge they would still be able to attack with two ranks instead of just one.

Give Silver Helms heavy armor and shields standard. There's no reason to not take them with this gear unless you're going for a horde army, and even then you wouldn't take cavalry in a horde army.

RBTs are fine.

Tiranoc Chariots. Give them the ability to upgrade to longbows. Give them the option of scythed wheels. You notice that giant spear on the front of the chariot? What's that doing? I'll tell you what it's doing. Nothing.
Of course that statement may have come from the fact that I ALWAYS roll a 1 for impact hits...

The SkaerKrow
05-01-2007, 23:03
So, for those of us that don't know, which other books has Mr. Troke worked on for Games Workshop?

Fhoen
05-01-2007, 23:44
Give Silver Helms heavy armor and shields standard. There's no reason to not take them with this gear unless you're going for a horde army, and even then you wouldn't take cavalry in a horde army.

to lower the points cost of cav maybe... imho it's fine that u can have a cheap hard hitting unit that can manouvre real nicely (18" march/charge)... they're a bargain and u can attack a flank or even anything that isn't properly set up...
but that's my vision of silverhelms

Cenyu
05-01-2007, 23:50
Silverhelms come with barding so their movement is 8" only - Ithilmar Barding (preserves the 9" move of Elven steeds) is reserved for Dragonprinces and characters.

€: Neither Manticores nor Griffons nor Hippogryphs (sp?) nor Pegasi nor any other monstrous flying monster I can think of apart from Dragons (and maybe Nightmares?) have an armour save - so I don't think that the feathers of an Eagle will justify an armour save in comparison to said units.

Besides, Great Eagles are already a silly good unit, no need to further improve them.

adreal
06-01-2007, 00:11
I don't want my silver helms to come with heavy armour and shield as standard, sometimes it's nice to have a 5 peson unit of lancers, that are far cheaper the a 5 person unit of full kit silver helms. It's a tactical option and I like it.

Personally I'm sick of people wanting swordmasters to get the -1 to hit from shooting, if they get this and are no longer 0-1, they will become ten man missle screens for infantry, and that isn't right.

Increasing Weapon Skill wont really help Dragon Princes, IIRC they usually hit on 3s and het hit on 5s anyway, so being WS6 wont do anything, give them an additional -1 to hit in combat would be nice, but maybe alittle to powerful. As have been pointed out to me, they already have 18" charge range, access to a nice magic banner and magic items for the champion, I would like another something for them, but I also want to reasonably be able to field them as well.

NO archers should not be able to upgrade to +1 to hit at short range, they should get something completly different from wood elves, or be made cheaper. Personally I wouldn't mind a volly fire type rule, +1 to hit at long range if more then one unit is shooting at the same target. That would encourage more then one unit of archers.

Just Tony
06-01-2007, 00:14
There's a very short list of things that would fix the HE book, and make it balanced.

1. Bury I@C. There are ways to select your characters to make it not much of a hindrance, but there are enough people complaining that it warrants changing. Me personally, I like the thought of my BSB occasionally being my general. But what do I know?

2. Drop Spearmen to 10 points. Pure and simple. (Side note, to poster above. HE Spearmen DO attack with two ranks in the charge. Read where it says "units fight with one less rank when they charge")

3. Archers either dropped in pts, or given back "shoot in two ranks". As it stands, WE archers cost the same, are TONS better, and have the same BS, which is GW's justification for the points cost of HE archers.

4. Swordmasters with Killing blow, raise to 15 pts.

5. Phoenix Guard immune to Psychology. Causing fear is nice, but it just seems that they'd be more inclined to be unafraid themselves.

6. Make Sea Guard and Shadow Warriors cheaper as well. Neither are worth their points cost currently.

Past that, I think they run fine. Relative points costs to other units who do the same thing and are cheaper are the only real gripe I have.

However, something tells me that with the incorporation of "pidgeon bombs" "Rocket Batteries" and other such nonsense, that I'll be QUITE disappointed with the way the HE get revamped. Hopefully sanity will prevail...

Tony

Ender Shadowkin
06-01-2007, 00:52
This is a polite reminder that this is a rumor roundup thread, not a wish list. Cluttering up the topic with wish lists tends to keep the people with the info away and makes it harder for other people to go through and see what is really news.

There is a thread in the Fantansy Section called "HE wish list", which is a great place to discuss your hopes and dreams. Also, there is another thread titled "State of the High Elves?" in this very rumors forum that went over 1000 posts descusing these topics as well. Thats another great place to see what others have discussed and add some debate, that thread is already hopelessly off the actual news track, although weaved in there is most of what this thread also reports, which is the point. This thread was hopefully going to be condensed rumors, and discussion of said rumor.



So, for those of us that don't know, which other books has Mr. Troke worked on for Games Workshop?

He gave a very nice Bio of what he has worked on in the State of the High Elves thread, but that may be hard to find through all of those pages. Just pull up Inquisitor Rex's profile and look for it in his posts, he probably dosn't have too many posts.

Petey
06-01-2007, 00:53
a five plus ward save vs shooting is what i think we ll see for swordsmaster

Sylass
06-01-2007, 09:41
Mmmh, seems this HE "rumour" thread shared the same destiny as the countless other ones we had: next to no new rumours, but a lengthy and somewhat tiresome discussion about what the players would like to see.

I'm going to close this thread now. I'll start a new thread in the Fantasy General discussion and move all "wish list" type of posts to the new thread then.

Link will follow once I waded through the 16 pages of HE madness here. :p



*edit*
It was easier to just move the 4-5 on-topic posts to the official HE Rumour Roundup (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46537) instead of doing it the other way around. :eyebrows:

Thanks for your patience, you can continue to use this thread for the "wish list" type of posts and the discussion connected to the HE rumours now. :)

Fenvarien
06-01-2007, 20:20
I think the current High Elves in general are not too weak. They don&#180;t need such a big boost like Dwarfs for example did to make them competitive again. The main problem is that the HE list in itself is extremely unbalanced. While some units - especially cavalry and characters equipped with tons of cheap and effective magic items - are really powerfull the other half is simply not worth their points. Thinking of Seaguard, Archers, Phoenixguard and even White Lions the High Elves got some of the most uneffective units in the game (in relation to their points costs). But let&#180;s have a look on the units in detail:

Characters:

While the characters themself seem fairly priced, they become simply over the top by giving them access to cheap AND (!) in my opinion extremly effective magic items. Just think of things like Ring of Corin, Blessed Tome, Banner of Ellyrion or Reaver Bow. Furthermore I see no reason for "cheap magic items" fluffwise because in my opinion points costs should always reflect a units (or an items) effectivness on the tabletop and nothing else!

So please ditch that rule! At the moment it is just a justification to spent even more points on characters and less on troops.

Somewhat crazy in my opinion is “Court Intrigue”. It reminds me a bit of Byzantium, which certain other things in the HE backround also do, but it is simply the root of a lot of other problems, for example White Lions "loosing" stubborn and so on.

By the way: Four character choices is not that much. So a bit more variety would be cool. No idea though what kind of new character the High Elves could get. Hmmm…. . Some kind of Seer or Prophet that allowes additional manouvers / special deployment and / or provides magic resistence or so?

Core:

The most problematic section! But instead of writing lots of new, complicating special rules (like strike in initiative order for Spearelves or no long range penalties for Archers) why not just reducing their points costs? What worked miracles in the Dark Elves list should also work with High Elves. So I would say drop the points of Spearelves and Archers by 2. Giving Archers “shoot from two ranks” in addition shouldn&#180;t be wrong. It&#180;s very stylish if you ask me and it definitifly won&#180;t make Archers to powerfull. What&#180;s more important is that it will help out the Seaguard which should be a lot cheaper. At least 3 points. And they should of course be able to take a magic standard! Heavy armour for Spearmen could come as an upgrade but only for “First among equals” representing their elite status even more.
Silver Helmes are O.K. as they are, but upping their points a bit could further help to make HE armies consist more of what should be their backbone. And that&#180;s citizen levy!

The options for Silverhelms are a bit ridiculous at the moment. Why the hell are shields and heavy armour an upgrade when at the same time you always have to take a barding? :confused:

Elite:

Swordmasters: Adding killing blow will make them more dangerous for heavy cavalry and characters. For fluff-reasons it is a must have. Keep their points and they should be fine! I would not give them anything against shooting attacks. For me, Elves – especially their elite – are specialized fighters so Swordmasters should have a certain weakness. Use your (specialized) fast units to bring the enemy&#180;s guns to silence before they do to much damage and everything is O.K..

Reavers: Normal bows are much to expensive at the moment as is their champion.

Chariots: No changes. Bows only as an option?

Shadow Warriors: I would make them a bit cheaper (14 points) and half the points costs of their champion upgrade.

Dragon princes: Fine but a bit to ordinary especially when compared to Silverhelms. S4 and 30 points per modell would really distinguish them as elite heavy cavalry (what they should be). I&#180;m not sure.


Rare:

Repeater Bolt Thrower: No changes.

Giant Eagles: No changes.

White Lions: Need a lot of tweaking! Ditching Court Intrigue (or making them stubborn when accompanied by the “Pure of Heart” charakter), making Lion Pelts equivalent to Sea Dragon Cloakes and moving them completely into the elite-section should make them a choice again, shouldn&#180;t it? Making them Skirmishers would be another interresting option.

Phoenix Guard: Cause Fear doesn’t fit and combined with 15pts. per modell is not effective. Unbreakable would fit much better and would be worth 15pts.


New Units:

A new war maschine (something with flame attacks?), citizen levy Swordsmen (WS5, I6) with light armour, handweapon ans shield, Skirmishers with close combat equipment (additional Handweapon?) and of course Merwyrms are all things one could think of.


Just my 2 cents! :cool:

Cheers

Fenvarien

505
07-01-2007, 02:56
making lion cloaks like seadragon cloaks, and giving swordmasters KB. Kinda makes the HE into DE.

There needs to be enough distinction between the two races (similar but very different)

Arhalien
07-01-2007, 11:08
Then maybe just give swordmasters weapons that give just +1 strength, or make executioners st4, as i imagine executioners being a bit more about brute strenght than swordmasters, who fight with finnesse.

truthsayer
07-01-2007, 11:25
making lion cloaks like seadragon cloaks, and giving swordmasters KB. Kinda makes the HE into DE.

There needs to be enough distinction between the two races (similar but very different)

Well said 505, I really dont like the idea of giving swordmasters KB, then they'd be too hard. always strike on initiative with WS6, strength 5, killing blow and a benefit against archers. thats not right.

I do think they will keep Intrigue at court too, just make it so if there is more than one lord choice they have to roll between em. it makes a bit more sense between the lords than it does between a mage and a lord.

On the arcgers, ive said it before and ill say it again... give em light armour, drop their WS to 3, drop their points to say 10. thats a 3 point reduction to one as they are now. the WS 3 doesn't make a difference too much as if they're in combat they're dead most of the time anyway.

One rule you could give them is this.

Elven Vision/Keen Vision

when shooting with longbows, elves may class all enemy units as large targets, they do not however get the +1 to hit unless at short range.
If the enemy is already a Large target the usual rules apply.

This makes em shoot in two ranks all the time and get a +1 to hit at short range. It would however cost the 3 points they just lost making them back to 13 a pop.

just a quick thought...

Baindread
07-01-2007, 11:40
Well said 505, I really dont like the idea of giving swordmasters KB, then they'd be too hard. always strike on initiative with WS6, strength 5, killing blow and a benefit against archers. thats not right.

I think they should get an additional benefit as well.....and then maybe pop them to 14 pts.

Arhalien
07-01-2007, 16:58
I don't think the way to go with elven core units, spearmen primarily, is to drop points. This would make an elite army less eilte. WHile I agree they are overpirced, letting elves field more wouldn;t really help. For example, if spearmen get a 1 pt drop that saves me 40 points in my elf army. But cavalry will probably get a 1 or 2 point increase, meaning that's another 20 poits of ym army back on again. that leaves me 20 points with which to do stuff. That;s a warbanner for my spearmen. Wow. That's a big difference.

I know that there will be other changes, but they may just make units even more expensive. I think that spearmen should be powerful on the defensive, even in smal nuimbers, and making them cheaper isn;lt really going to help.

Just my erm... something pence (still haven't got the exchange rate yet :))

TeldurUK
07-01-2007, 18:22
Hey all,

I'll say sorry in advice now, just incase this has been posted before, but I'm quickly posting this before forgetting it!

I was chatting with a guy who comes into my shop who knows someone in the 'know' at GW :)

He's been in before, before the dwarf release. He told me about the oathstones and some other changes to the dwarves.

After helping him with an xbox 360 purchase, he went on to mention these little bits of information:

* Lothern Sea Guard - Improved significatly. He mentioned being able to shoot in 2 ranks (spears in 3)
* Warrior Mages - High elf wizards, who also enjoy the action of close combat
* More Monsters - The army book will feature more monsters
* Kindreds - He mentioned that much like the Wood Elves army book (of which Ive only breifly flicked through) that the different kindreds that wood elves can take will be reflected in the High Elves book in a similar fashion. Infact, a few things about the wood elves will be bought over to the High Elves, altho he didnt go into that much detail.

Must mention, that this information may change as the book gets closer to release.

Again I'm sorry if any of this information has been mentioned already!!

Petey
07-01-2007, 18:58
thanks Teldur

Fhoen
07-01-2007, 22:17
if the rumours will be true, i think it'll be cool with those warrior mages ;)

Dargon
07-01-2007, 23:18
I don't think the way to go with elven core units, spearmen primarily, is to drop points. This would make an elite army less eilte.I've seen similar comments repeated over and over regarding the High Elves, and personally I have never understood it. Where do people get the impression that the High Elves are an "Elite" army... and why do the High Elves have to be laden with special rules and cost an arm and a leg to represent it? The basic Elf stats alone are already "Elite" (ie. better than a human). Just how elite is "Elite"?:eyebrows:

Dwarfs are supposedly just as "Elite" and relatively few in number as the High Elves, yet their basic troops start as low as 8pts, and their elite infantry are generally in the 11-13pt range. Dwarfs are hardly considered a "Hoard" army;) .

I can understand the Wood Elves being a tiny elite force - they specialise in guerilla ambushes and raids. In contrast, the High Elves fight with full armies filled with ranks of Elven soldiers. How will the High Elves ever manage to field ranks if they cost as much as Asrai?

Given the trends displayed in the Orc and Empire books, combined with the complaints that High Elf infantry is overpriced to begin with, I think it's pretty safe to assume that prices will be dropping for most High Elf infantry. After all, what is the point of bonuses for 2nd/3rd rank troops if you can't afford to field the 2nd/3rd ranks;) .


* Warrior Mages - High elf wizards, who also enjoy the action of close combatAs long as this option is affordable, if it comes to pass I'll be very happy:D .

Just a thought...

Achilles
08-01-2007, 12:35
I've seen similar comments repeated over and over regarding the High Elves, and personally I have never understood it. Where do people get the impression that the High Elves are an "Elite" army... and why do the High Elves have to be laden with special rules and cost an arm and a leg to represent it? The basic Elf stats alone are already "Elite" (ie. better than a human). Just how elite is "Elite"?:eyebrows:

Dwarfs are supposedly just as "Elite" and relatively few in number as the High Elves, yet their basic troops start as low as 8pts, and their elite infantry are generally in the 11-13pt range. Dwarfs are hardly considered a "Hoard" army;) .

I can understand the Wood Elves being a tiny elite force - they specialise in guerilla ambushes and raids. In contrast, the High Elves fight with full armies filled with ranks of Elven soldiers. How will the High Elves ever manage to field ranks if they cost as much as Asrai?

Given the trends displayed in the Orc and Empire books, combined with the complaints that High Elf infantry is overpriced to begin with, I think it's pretty safe to assume that prices will be dropping for most High Elf infantry. After all, what is the point of bonuses for 2nd/3rd rank troops if you can't afford to field the 2nd/3rd ranks;) .


Good point, and i have to really agree with you... and arent high elves citizen levy, similar to the 40K eldar guardians?

they should then race-wise be better than a human (initiative, WS, BS) but in numbers, i dont think. I know they are a dying race and all, but that is no reason not to bring a full army to battle... they need everybody to fight just like everybody else. They wont go: 'jolly lets go to war... lets not bring as much warriors as the enemy 'cause were so much better then them...' There is Strenght in numbers, even for a High elf. and dont compare points to stats... the models are point balanced within an army, not compared to other armies. (skaven should cost more than a human then:rolleyes: )

Ender Shadowkin
08-01-2007, 16:56
There are some rumors that an old unit will be reserected. A few people thought it was likely to bring back the Kinbands, which are base elven warriros. this could flesh out the static combat resolution for an infantry force, and make a distinction from base elves (kinbands) the profesionals (citzen levy/sea guard) and the elites (sword masters, white lions, and phoenix guard). lets hope this is the way they go.

The SkaerKrow
08-01-2007, 22:12
There are some rumors that an old unit will be reserected. A few people thought it was likely to bring back the Kinbands, which are base elven warriros. this could flesh out the static combat resolution for an infantry force, and make a distinction from base elves (kinbands) the profesionals (citzen levy/sea guard) and the elites (sword masters, white lions, and phoenix guard). lets hope this is the way they go.

...so their big addition would be an inferior version of their rank and file troops? I really doubt it. High Elves don't have a proper "lost-between-4th-and-6th edition" unit like Orcs and Empire did. If they get a new unit, I anticipate that it'll be something truly new, not a 4th or 5th Edition retread.

Ender Shadowkin
08-01-2007, 22:50
...so their big addition would be an inferior version of their rank and file troops? I really doubt it. High Elves don't have a proper "lost-between-4th-and-6th edition" unit like Orcs and Empire did. If they get a new unit, I anticipate that it'll be something truly new, not a 4th or 5th Edition retread.

It's not my rumor I believe it was hastings back in the original state of the High Elves thread. Its also in the rumor roundup, but feel free to doubt it all you want.

A set of Basic elves with hand weapon and shields for a reasonable price would be great. I know of many HE and DE players who comonly elect to use HW shield on their spear elves because the armor save helps them out oodels more then those S3 attacks verse CAV and lightluy armored T4 troops.

If you follow the rumor threads it looks like HE will get at least two new units (new as in not in the 6th edition books).

JonnyTHM
09-01-2007, 02:06
...so their big addition would be an inferior version of their rank and file troops? I really doubt it. High Elves don't have a proper "lost-between-4th-and-6th edition" unit like Orcs and Empire did. If they get a new unit, I anticipate that it'll be something truly new, not a 4th or 5th Edition retread.

Given whom that rumour came from I'd say it's not something that I would doubt.


I beieve there is at least 1 "new" unit (look at older ed HE books to find stuff that has been dropped in latest one ;) )

(check his previous posts for a track record if you'd like. I have no reason to doubt anything that comes out of Hastings' keyboard (likewise with Harry's) and at least 30 reasons to believe absolutely everything that does)

Sorry if your intent was to just doubt the kinbands, and not the original rumour. If that's the case, my apologies and the quote is then just provided for your own attempts to make a guess.

Hrogoff the Destructor
09-01-2007, 05:51
I think the concept of a battle mage is the coolest thing ever. They shouldn't use High Magic, but rather their own unique bardic lore that bolstered squads and had various close combat orientated spells.

Could you imagine giving swordmasters reroll hits/to wounds for a turn? Giving a squad a temporary 5+ ward? Making the enemies -1 to hit for a turn? I know it won't happen, but that doesn't make it any less cool to think about.

enyoss
09-01-2007, 09:09
I think the concept of a battle mage is the coolest thing ever. They shouldn't use High Magic, but rather their own unique bardic lore that bolstered squads and had various close combat orientated spells.

Could you imagine giving swordmasters reroll hits/to wounds for a turn? Giving a squad a temporary 5+ ward? Making the enemies -1 to hit for a turn? I know it won't happen, but that doesn't make it any less cool to think about.

It's almost as if you could upgrade a Commander to be a level 1 Mage and then take Portent of Far ;). It has already happened! It would be nice to see the Loremaster honour go way down in cost for Heroes though so we see more of them. I already use a Loremaster Commander with a great weapon and Portent of Far in my Swordmasters, and he is quite effective (plus it allowed me to do a nice simple conversion of the Mordheim Elf Mage with a greatsword :D).

I am quite looking forward to the kinbands' return. They would definitely provide a unit that fills a role no other current unit can. Spearmen are just ineffective as 10 man flanking units whereas 10 warriors with additional hand weapons (as they used to be able to have) would be great. Although in the new book, with the 0-1 restrictions gone, it is quite likely that we'll be able to use multiple units of Swordmasters/White Lions to fulfill this role instead. It's wait and see I suppose.

Cheers,

enyoss

EDIT: @ Hrogoff the Destructor - Not having a go or anything... just taking the **** :D. Don't want you to think we're a mean bunch... welcome to the forums :).

laughingman
09-01-2007, 09:29
its not that outrageous to give a unit a 5 plus ward save, if anything sword masters could very well get it from shooting, and all the other additions -1 to hit re rolls, all are in the empire army, why not HE

The SkaerKrow
09-01-2007, 11:28
Sorry if your intent was to just doubt the kinbands, and not the original rumour. If that's the case, my apologies and the quote is then just provided for your own attempts to make a guess.

I am doubting Kinbands, because it'd be a terrible mistake to add them to current High Elf list unless some serious changes were made to High Elf Spearmen. The Orcs and Empire both had a relatively modern unit that was cut from their army book between 5th and 6th Edition. High Elves do not have a unit that fits neatly into this category, so it wouldn't surprise me if GW added something completely new to the High Elven army book (in place of a "throwback" unit).

That said, if Hastings is asserting that they're getting an old unit then I'm inclined to believe him (despite my post count, I've been reading the Warseer forums for the better part of a year and know of him and Harry). But I highly doubt it will be Core High Elven block Infantry with Hand Weapons and Shields.

Prince Sairion
09-01-2007, 11:56
Warrior wizards eh. . . .???? I reckon it could be an upgrade for commanders much like demon heroes/lords get in HoC armies.

Re: the guy who compared HE to Eldar: The HE could have mages who use strong powers (like that of the farseer) and warrior mages would have lesser powers (warlocks). Smacks a bit too close to the Empires set-up mind.

The lion chariot and merwyrm would be my guesses for new units. Either way they (gw) will be wanting people to play offensive elven foot armies with archers and spears, so more rare choices to remove bolt throwers as a no-brainer are likely I reckon.

Also - and indeed unfortunately - I'd put pennies on Silver Helms' save going down to 3+ with 8" move to make Dragon Princes the 'elite' choice they are meant to be.

Baindread
09-01-2007, 12:26
I'd put pennies on Silver Helms' save going down to 3+ with 8" move to make Dragon Princes the 'elite' choice they are meant to be.

I think that they will actually improve Dragon Princes instead of "nerfing" Silver Helms, as the entire army needs to be improved. The internal balance is decent so they should let that be alone. Althugh we all know GW sometimes have trouble keeping their fingers from stuff that aren't broken.

Petey
09-01-2007, 15:32
I'ld like to see kinbands mix with Lothern sea guard. Though the spears are nice, the more piratical seaman thing is 2 cutlasses

EvC
09-01-2007, 15:42
Kinbands sounds too Wood Elfy for me, but a more piratical assault marine-style Sea Guard would suit me just fine.

And hopefully there will be improvements to Dragon Princes rather than weakening of Silver Helms- I love the DP models but they're stupid in game terms- 1" extra movement, very slightly better stats and immune to fire; their best feature is being able to take a magic item for their champion, but a unit's best feature as being able to spend more points is not such a good thing in my eyes!

Jhayden
09-01-2007, 17:51
Kinbands sounds too Wood Elfy for me, but a more piratical assault marine-style Sea Guard would suit me just fine.

And hopefully there will be improvements to Dragon Princes rather than weakening of Silver Helms- I love the DP models but they're stupid in game terms- 1" extra movement, very slightly better stats and immune to fire; their best feature is being able to take a magic item for their champion, but a unit's best feature as being able to spend more points is not such a good thing in my eyes!

For their points, they're not that extravagent. They have an extra Weapon Skill, immunity to fire (In the 12 games I have played, no one has used fire or breath weapons at all, so why should I fear this?) and they have a slightly higher rate of movement. The main thing about Dragon Princes is that they have a relatively high Leadership(9) but relying entirely on not breaking isn't worth it.
Although I will admit that for their points relative to an equal sized unit of decked out Silver Helms, they're nice.
For 3 extra points you get an extra weaponskill, an extra leadership, an additional 1" movement and immunity to fire. Also the option of taking a cheap magic item is pretty good. But with so many other units having the exact same ability, it sort of seems as if the High Elves are relying very heavily on their magical items as opposed to their actual skill in battle.

For Dragon Princes I would suggest either making Dragon Armor worth being considered special, or make them have at least one special rule. I don't know what, but they're so incredibly bland.

Solonor
10-01-2007, 15:34
i already posted an idea for dragon princes, give their steeds +1 st on charge. Looking at the models, that armor trying to mimic dragon hide and horns could well be reflected in the game.

Ender Shadowkin
10-01-2007, 17:28
I'm not sure why everyone is so up for changing dragon princes. I think they are a great unit the way they are, (especailly vs Salamanders). The add charge range is really huge and they are a much better place to put a hero than Silver helms. Especially with the champion wearing the helm of fortune. There are many other more needed changes in the HE list, The cav in general works really well.

Chaos for The World
10-01-2007, 17:41
I love my DP and use them in almost every game. But when you compare them to the new Empire inner circle knights they are not as good (I don't recall the new rules for them but when a buddy of mine compared them the DP came up short). They do need a little something extra to make them as good as thier fluff and points they cost (especially if GW is raising thier points costs).

Also, the idea of a lion drawn chariot is really cool! The more options of units to field the better and as long as the model looks great then I will definately buy a few.

Von Wibble
10-01-2007, 18:50
Hmmmm.....

Inner circle have +1 S and +1 Save, and slightly cheaper command group.

Both cost the same in points.

Dragon Princes have +2 M, +1 I, +1 WS, +1 Ld, Immune to fire, champion has magic items.

How exactly do dragon princes come up short? Before we even bear in mind the restrictions of cross list comparisons...

As to warrior wizards I think this could be a good thing as it would effectivly make it possible to actually combine loremaster with some armour and/or magic items. I use loremasters in most games so this has to be good for me.

To me, kinbands hardly seem like a new unit so much as a weapon option on an existing unit. Chaos warriors with hand weapon and shield aren't a different choice to chaos warrioirs with halberds after all.

EvC
10-01-2007, 21:56
I'm not sure why everyone is so up for changing dragon princes. I think they are a great unit the way they are, (especailly vs Salamanders). The add charge range is really huge and they are a much better place to put a hero than Silver helms. Especially with the champion wearing the helm of fortune. There are many other more needed changes in the HE list, The cav in general works really well.

Yeah, but they're just so bland as Jhayden says. They might as well just be an upgrade for Silver Helms as it is. Like "+3 points: unit becomes immune to fire, wears Ithilmar Barding, with +1 to WS, I, and leadership, and a Champion may take a magic item up to 25 points". They're better than Inner Circle and about as deserving of being a separate unit.

Achilles
11-01-2007, 12:14
Yeah, but they're just so bland as Jhayden says. They might as well just be an upgrade for Silver Helms as it is. Like "+3 points: unit becomes immune to fire, wears Ithilmar Barding, with +1 to WS, I, and leadership, and a Champion may take a magic item up to 25 points". They're better than Inner Circle and about as deserving of being a separate unit.

But they have much more background in my opinion than Inner Circle Knights, in comparison to their 'regular' army cavalry options. that alone warrants them a sepparate entry in the list.

EvC
11-01-2007, 21:09
I agree that their background warrants them a separate entry, I just think they should have stats and rules as befits them!

Gabacho Mk.II
11-01-2007, 23:52
On the note of Dragon Princes...

This past weekend, a GW employee was hinting at DP's being kept roughly the same as they were in the previous edition, but with the trait of being Stubborn.

I dont know how to trust this rumor, but it would certainly be interesting to see exactly what GW is coming up with in the book....

adreal
11-01-2007, 23:54
yes DP should have better rules, i rekon another attack would be great (remember that dark elves havnt got thier update yet, so COK can and maybe will get upgraded), but they also need a rule to relfict thier stubborn nature, they need some form of a drawback......what I don't know but.....or if they don't give them a better statline immune to panic cause by other high elf units would be nice (it only wouldn't work against dark elves)

Petey
12-01-2007, 01:24
Is it just me, or is all this talk of upgrading dragon princes nuts to anyone else?

Seriously, heavy knights seem to be a simple equation, give the knight +1WS +1ld to the race standard profile, give them a race appropriate mount(with 7M), AS2+ and one special power to make them special.
Empire's special thing is an additional armor save. Dark elves cause fear. High Elves get 1points of speed over other cavalry. Its pretty simple.
High Elf players have been spoiled with too many extra powers. Even if one were to make a case for saying these DP are like Innercircle or Chosen in regards to their place in an army, that still amounts to an additional minor (paid for) bonus, as well as yet another inch in movement. They have this as well Immune to fire and champion item selection. If you don't like those benefits, that's one thing, but to demand more is crazy.
Personally, I think the immune to fire thing was great, you could fly a dragon next to them and unleash it's breath weapon on the melee (no longer legal, i know) and the hits on your elves were ignored and you cut their number of enemies for your DP to work on.
Seriously though, the added four inches on a charge are more than enough for anyone.

Jhayden
12-01-2007, 02:08
Is it just me, or is all this talk of upgrading dragon princes nuts to anyone else?

Seriously, heavy knights seem to be a simple equation, give the knight +1WS +1ld to the race standard profile, give them a race appropriate mount(with 7M), AS2+ and one special power to make them special.
Empire's special thing is an additional armor save. Dark elves cause fear. High Elves get 1points of speed over other cavalry. Its pretty simple.
High Elf players have been spoiled with too many extra powers. Even if one were to make a case for saying these DP are like Innercircle or Chosen in regards to their place in an army, that still amounts to an additional minor (paid for) bonus, as well as yet another inch in movement. They have this as well Immune to fire and champion item selection. If you don't like those benefits, that's one thing, but to demand more is crazy.
Personally, I think the immune to fire thing was great, you could fly a dragon next to them and unleash it's breath weapon on the melee (no longer legal, i know) and the hits on your elves were ignored and you cut their number of enemies for your DP to work on.
Seriously though, the added four inches on a charge are more than enough for anyone.


The problem with being immune to fire is that it's so situational. It works against 2 things. Breath weapons and Fire magic. Frankly, fire magic isn't that fantastic when compared to say Heavens or Shadow. Also, people almost always know that Dragon Princes are immune to fire, and they wouldn't even bother wasting their breath weapon or fire magic on them anyway, since there are other, non-immune targets littering the board.

Now, fire REFLECTION, that would be hawt. No one would dare have them hit by a fire spell, even if it were just from the splash damage of a conflagration of doom spell. But that's just my little fantasy.

Frankly, I would rather have +1 toughness and +1 armor save then the option of charging you an extra few inches and being immune to a lore which frankly, kinda sucks.

Petey
12-01-2007, 08:31
actually the lore they become immune to that you should care about is alchemy. All those spells are fire spells, and really do a number on armor, wait a sec... so are half the spells from lore of light...
Immune to fire make you immune to about 3 spell lists fire, alchemy, and light
not bad for a minor benefit.
And though +1 T is nice, Jhayden, we all know that chaos is broken, we shouldn't use them in examples lol ;)
That aside, the ability to get a charge off over your opponent will mean doom for him in most cases, and in following turns elves have an advantage in WS on most targets, the DP do fine.
as to heavens and shadow, i m not that scared of heavens, it has only one spell to really look out for, and if i m only worried about one on a list then we ll be all right. Shadow is a problem, by having a few ways to bypass armor, but not all armies get shadow (empire, HE, DE, and Mortal Chaos are the likely ones to have access to it) and it's level one spell is too specialized for most armies to make use of it, so i find it gets picked less than other choices.

You re right about fire not being fantastic ( i hope they remedy this in the next edition) but it's the most combat oriented one, with the best chance of giving you a direct damage spell, so i think more folks will be taking it in the days to come.

EvC
12-01-2007, 11:58
That aside, the ability to get a charge off over your opponent will mean doom for him in most cases, and in following turns elves have an advantage in WS on most targets, the DP do fine.

Unfortuantely not! With one S5 attack each and the horses, the Dragon Princes are simply no more likely to beat most units in combat than Silver Helms, Empire Knights or any other type of standard heavy cavalry. That's their problem- their benefits are nice but they're not really on another level from Silver Helms.

I like the idea of them being stubborn- this way they could charge into massive blocks of infantry and would be most unlikely to flee even when vastly outnumbered.

Arhalien
12-01-2007, 13:18
Thy're useful against more elite infantry with ws4, the hitting on 3s making a difference(especially with my bad 4_rolling :))

Tobias
12-01-2007, 19:05
On the note of Dragon Princes...

This past weekend, a GW employee was hinting at DP's being kept roughly the same as they were in the previous edition, but with the trait of being Stubborn.

I dont know how to trust this rumor, but it would certainly be interesting to see exactly what GW is coming up with in the book....


That would be useless, such a unit is not meant to charge loose combat but with an alibity to stay becauce they are stubborn. Rather get S6on the charge or something.

Jhayden
12-01-2007, 19:44
actually the lore they become immune to that you should care about is alchemy. All those spells are fire spells, and really do a number on armor, wait a sec... so are half the spells from lore of light...
Immune to fire make you immune to about 3 spell lists fire, alchemy, and light
not bad for a minor benefit.
And though +1 T is nice, Jhayden, we all know that chaos is broken, we shouldn't use them in examples lol ;)
That aside, the ability to get a charge off over your opponent will mean doom for him in most cases, and in following turns elves have an advantage in WS on most targets, the DP do fine.
as to heavens and shadow, i m not that scared of heavens, it has only one spell to really look out for, and if i m only worried about one on a list then we ll be all right. Shadow is a problem, by having a few ways to bypass armor, but not all armies get shadow (empire, HE, DE, and Mortal Chaos are the likely ones to have access to it) and it's level one spell is too specialized for most armies to make use of it, so i find it gets picked less than other choices.

You re right about fire not being fantastic ( i hope they remedy this in the next edition) but it's the most combat oriented one, with the best chance of giving you a direct damage spell, so i think more folks will be taking it in the days to come.


I heard somewhere that flaming attacks are not negated by Dragon Armor. Only spells from the Lore of Fire and all breath attacks are negated.

Then again, GW is extremely vague on this, and there is no real answer. On the GW errata it just says "pure flame attacks, such as spells from the lore of fire, breath weapons, dwarven flame cannons, etc"
I don't think they are immune to all 'flaming attacks' because that would simply be a bit over powered. I could just have them fight a champion with a flaming sword and be completely immune to all of his attacks.

Only one of the spells in Lore of Light are even classified as a flaming attack, so I don't really see why it makes me immune to three lists (if I am immune to flaming attacks, then yes it's 2 lists but certainly not 3)

adreal
12-01-2007, 23:24
I heard somewhere that flaming attacks are not negated by Dragon Armor. Only spells from the Lore of Fire and all breath attacks are negated.

Then again, GW is extremely vague on this, and there is no real answer. On the GW errata it just says "pure flame attacks, such as spells from the lore of fire, breath weapons, dwarven flame cannons, etc"
I don't think they are immune to all 'flaming attacks' because that would simply be a bit over powered. I could just have them fight a champion with a flaming sword and be completely immune to all of his attacks.

Only one of the spells in Lore of Light are even classified as a flaming attack, so I don't really see why it makes me immune to three lists (if I am immune to flaming attacks, then yes it's 2 lists but certainly not 3)

page 15 of the high elf army book
"the model is immune to all breath attacks, and any fire-based attack (including spells from the Lore of Fire)"

now this is in 6th ed, I don't think there was as many flaming spells, but fighting a guy with the flaming sword, yeah DP's are immune, and Untill high elves recieve an updated FaQ for 7th ed, anything with a flaming attack (warp-fire thrower inlcuded) wont damage DP's. While this skill is largly ignored (even by me) it is handy enough to make them different from silver helms, but they do seem fairly pricey..........

as to the main problem with DP's not hitting any more then SH's, that is a problem with the core mechanics of the game, rather then the profile of the dragon princes.

Solution, I dunno, maybe a +1 for thier to hit rolls on the first turn of combat (letting you get a 2+ to hit), I'de be happy for a slight points increase with that rule. If they stay just as they are, then don't increase the cost.

sulla
13-01-2007, 00:06
I heard somewhere that flaming attacks are not negated by Dragon Armor. Only spells from the Lore of Fire and all breath attacks are negated.



They're not immune to say flaming cannonballs because even without the flames it's still a cannonball but they are immune to all attacks that are solely flame.

Varath- Lord Impaler
13-01-2007, 01:47
Nope, a dwarfen flaming cannonball is completly negated because the Dwarf book says 'The warmachine counts as flaming'

This means my dwarfs had a tough time against DP when my background is fire.

2 bolt throwers, a grudge thrower and a flame cannon, nothing could hurt them because of that damn armour :P

oh well...i enjoyed that game, it was good to find someone who didnt get torn apart by my warmachines.

vinush
13-01-2007, 07:51
Here's official rules from GW's errata regarding Dragon Armour:


They are only immune to 'pure' flame attacks, such as flame cannons, dragons breath, warp fire throwers, lore of fire and the like. They are not immune to canon balls, scythes, screaming skulls or anything else that also happens to be on fire! (Note: They are not immune to Tzeentch spells).

Chaos for The World
13-01-2007, 16:10
As I said before I use my DP in almost every game I play and in the three years and countless games I have played only twice did the immune to fire help them. Since then no one uses fire attacks on them so its NOT going to help them anymore! For the points we have to pay for this benefit its not worth it.

Stubborn would seriously hurt them more than anything else. T3, Str3, low model count in unit, cannot be overcome by having 2+ armor in a slugfest. That's not what they are about they are elite heavy calvary and they are meant to charge in break a unit and go the next unit. That's why they charge at 18" with Str5!

As far as special rules; this brings me to comparring them to the Inner Circle Knights. They get 1+ armor and Str4. That is so awsome compared to being immune to fire! Grant we charge 18 verses 16 and higher In and WS but in the end they just don't compare to better armor and higher strength especially in a slugfest. I don't know what special rule they should have (that's GW job, if they want to pay me then I can come up with something ;)) but it would be great to change the Dragon Armor so it's a regular benefit as oppose to a one hit wonder!

giner
13-01-2007, 16:38
As I said before I use my DP in almost every game I play and in the three years and countless games I have played only twice did the immune to fire help them. Since then no one uses fire attacks on them so its NOT going to help them anymore! For the points we have to pay for this benefit its not worth it.

So not get blasted to death by conflag and firey blasts doesn't help then.

Stouty
13-01-2007, 16:41
Just give DP a pip of strength extra and then revalue them and they'd be fixed. Of course that wouldn't mean people would stop moaning about a lack of special rules. 6 strength 6 attacks on the charge plus whatever crap the champion has is plenty hard hitting.

Corrupt
13-01-2007, 17:07
I agree with much of the thread.
Elves don't need a total redesign, just a few minor stat/points adjustments.
Heavy Armour for spearmen, maybe a 4+ save Mithril Armour or something, but mainly simple changes to the basic kit, stat and points of a model would sort elves out.

Chaos for The World
14-01-2007, 15:00
Originally Posted by Chaos for The World
As I said before I use my DP in almost every game I play and in the three years and countless games I have played only twice did the immune to fire help them. Since then no one uses fire attacks on them so its NOT going to help them anymore! For the points we have to pay for this benefit its not worth it.

So not get blasted to death by conflag and firey blasts doesn't help then.

True enough but no one ever takes lore of fire against me so this then becomes a mute point and helps valididate what I am saying.

As fars as the people that say that elf players do nothing but whine. Play several games wth the High Elves then let us know what you discovered but don't just judge from an outside position. If you already played High Elves and feel this way then provide some constructive criticism:D

Ender Shadowkin
14-01-2007, 16:06
Originally Posted by Chaos for The World
As I said before I use my DP in almost every game I play and in the three years and countless games I have played only twice did the immune to fire help them. Since then no one uses fire attacks on them so its NOT going to help them anymore! For the points we have to pay for this benefit its not worth it.

So not get blasted to death by conflag and firey blasts doesn't help then.

True enough but no one ever takes lore of fire against me so this then becomes a mute point and helps valididate what I am saying.


Well you just proved the dragon princes help you in every game! If no one takes lore of fire verse you then you are affecting theyr choices and limiting their options, yes that is a benefit. Fire is a brutal direct attack lore, No one uses fire on them now? Great, they are living longer and getting less stuff thrown at them.

And clearely you don't play many lizardman opponent. DP are the absolution vest thing for killing salamanders, throw them in their face and charge away.

I use DP every time as well and thing the immunity to fire has given me a tacticla advantage in 30-40% of the time, and are essential verse LM.

Chaos for The World
17-01-2007, 03:42
Originally Posted by Chaos for The World
Originally Posted by Chaos for The World
As I said before I use my DP in almost every game I play and in the three years and countless games I have played only twice did the immune to fire help them. Since then no one uses fire attacks on them so its NOT going to help them anymore! For the points we have to pay for this benefit its not worth it.

So not get blasted to death by conflag and firey blasts doesn't help then.

True enough but no one ever takes lore of fire against me so this then becomes a mute point and helps valididate what I am saying.
Well you just proved the dragon princes help you in every game! If no one takes lore of fire verse you then you are affecting theyr choices and limiting their options, yes that is a benefit. Fire is a brutal direct attack lore, No one uses fire on them now? Great, they are living longer and getting less stuff thrown at them.

And clearely you don't play many lizardman opponent. DP are the absolution vest thing for killing salamanders, throw them in their face and charge away.

I use DP every time as well and thing the immunity to fire has given me a tacticla advantage in 30-40% of the time, and are essential verse LM

Your line of thinking is correct and I should have stated that the store where I game everyone seems to pick spells from their race lore eg. undead, orcs, dark elves and so forth. No one in my area ever seems to take the lore of fire or metal no matter who they play so my dp cannot claim to affect anyones choice. And yes I do play against liz every so often and though you are correct they are great at charging salamanders (and dwarf flame cannon:evilgrin: ) my oppononets also rarely use these units regardless of who they play and they still do quite well. So again my dp can't claim any real benefit there either.

On a different note has anyone heard any rumors of gw fixing the reavers in the next edition? I have heard of everyone talking about all the other HE units but no one mentioned the reavers. Everyone I talk to agrees they are not a bad unit as long as you don't take the bow option. I would love the idea of using them as fast cavalry that have some sort of effective shooting like the mongols did.

Petey
17-01-2007, 04:33
actually looking over it again, i m sorry, but DP don't count as elite knights.
Inner circle, are elite knights. They are an upgrade from knights, who are stat ed beyond the normal soldier.
Silver helms are simply mounted soldiers. And DP are just knights.
It s not fair to place them next to IC, they just aren't built for it.

And yet, somehow, they hold their own anyway. I m fine with this. and to answer an earlier point, S6 is not the elf way, more hits is the elf way. More strength is the way of indelicate creatures. More skill is the way of elves.
The elves against other knights (not elite knights) hit about as hard and hit more often, with a better chance to charge, and go first if by initiative.

Sure, immune to fire is not that good, but looking at their cost, role and ability, i say that ability is Not costing them anything

EvC
17-01-2007, 13:30
So all in all, it's not bad to take Dragon Princes, but only if you have a spare special spot in your army, really. But they are hardly that special. Make Dragon Armour a 4+ base save and they become as decent as Inner Circle Knights for sure. As was pointed out earlier, I do like how they're immune to several lores other than fire as well now, like light and metal.

zak
17-01-2007, 14:43
I don't see GW raising any Elves to have toughness 4. The general has T3 so does his troops! The DP do need something to stand out a bit and maybe an extra attack or better save would do this.

keudiven
18-01-2007, 00:47
I appologize for this, but I am new to the forums and must make 2 posting before I can start a thread so this is one =).

Von Wibble
18-01-2007, 20:51
Personally from a value for points perspective I don't think dp are a bad option at all. M9 means you get the charge against all opposing cavalry, and the excellent M9 chariots charging in at the same time means that the enemy can't hammer your infantry with expensive knights. I would take +2M over +1S and +1 save every time. The rest are just gravy, though Ld 9 means they are reliable.

If you compare to inner circle -

IC - +1S, +1 save, slightly cheaper command group, not 0-1

DP - +2M, champion can have magic items (helm of fortune and amulet of the purifying flame are my favourite), +1I, +1Ld, immune to fire.

However where my issue is is that they are rather bland - I would rather they cost around 30pts each and got rules to reflect this. Not sure what though. Horses have +1S? Ithilmar lances give some kind of bonus eg +3S, or AP on charge?

That said, if the infantry are sorted out I don't mind if the cavalry are left alone.

tolcreator
19-01-2007, 13:56
Hmmm... personally I hope we don't see high elven "swordsmen"... I like my spears, I'll always field spears, just for the look of a bristling phalance marching in parade ground formation... I just hope we see spearmen either reduced in cost, or beefed up a bit...

"hand weapon and shield" has to be my least favourite rule ever.

Von Wibble
19-01-2007, 19:32
"hand weapon and shield" has to be my least favourite rule ever.

Amen to that

Andyroo
19-01-2007, 20:42
What people seem to be forgetting, is that Dragon armour not only protects your Dragon princes from the obvious Lore of Fire... but from the most devastating lore to cavalry in the game, the Lore of Metal. They're all flaming attacks, and hence DP are immune to the evil Str6, armour save-ignoring attacks of doom.

That in itself, is quite a good reason to keep fire immunity. Although, I still cry if someone rolls up Uranon's Thunderbolt. Evil spell be that.

505
20-01-2007, 02:24
Hmmm... personally I hope we don't see high elven "swordsmen"... I like my spears, I'll always field spears, just for the look of a bristling phalance marching in parade ground formation... I just hope we see spearmen either reduced in cost, or beefed up a bit...

"hand weapon and shield" has to be my least favourite rule ever.

technically you get swordsmen all models are assumed to have hand weapons :D

however 3 ranks 15 attacks with 5+ save are always better then 5 attacks at 4+ save anyday:)

Arhalien
21-01-2007, 11:39
Hmmm... personally I hope we don't see high elven "swordsmen"... .

I like swords. If they do new models for high elf swordsmen and they look good I'll snap them even if the rules aren't good. I personally like the idea of fighting with sword and shield.

Corrupt
21-01-2007, 11:51
Elf swordsmen wouldn't be so bad.
Maybe just "Elven Infantry" X pts per model(maybe 8) with hand weapons and light armour. Add shields, spears, bows etc at +1pt each.

Arhalien
21-01-2007, 11:57
I quite like the idea of maybe ws4, bs3, I4, otherwise normal, 6pts each with light armour, shields for 1pt, extra hand weapons 1pt. I think it was rumoured (probably not very reliably) that kinbands (basic elf warriors) may return, so this could be the sort of profile they may have.

I somehow get the feeling I;ve started off a new wave of pointless discussion here. oops :)

Glorfindel
23-01-2007, 13:58
I like the idea of basic warriors with sword and shield aswel, although I would never wish them to drop the spearelves.

Btw Is there anybody that think the loremaster honour needs a change? I think Loremaster should be a mage honour or something alike. From background perspective I thought loremasters were wizards that got into swordmaster fighting aswel and not a commanders/lord that learned a few magic tricks? At least that's what I learned from reading the background of Belaenner in the 5th edition armybook? I think it would be great to pay for a bit of extra combat punch now that mages can be shot at even if within 5" of a unit. Something along the lines of +2 ws and +1 a with a great weapon which ingores strike last? I would put a limit on it though because else you won't see any army without it I think. Something like a 1:1 ratio with the number of swordmaster units in the army.

Von Wibble
23-01-2007, 18:11
If I had to pick a special character I'd want to see it would be Belannear...but then again with how the special characters are being approached atm I don't think making up rules for him based around 5th ed would be too hard.

I think there will be changes to loremaster. At teh momentthe description of loremaster contradicts the rulebook. The rulebook doesn't state anywhere that wizards can't wear magic armour, I believe. But the description under Loremaster says "note that he can't wear amour and cast spells". The wording implies the rule is already stated and that loremaster should echo the rulebook.

i.e. Loremasters may well be able to get armour and cast spells?? Some combat focused spells wuold be nice too. (maybe have loremaster spells work more like prayers and boost characteristics?) This would make them a different choice to a commander and level 1 rolled into 1 - more akin to a warrior priest.

Elven kinbands - imo these seem to fill a hole in teh list marked expendable. Surely a lack of cheap throwaway trooops is an inherent weakness in the list that should stay, like T3 on all models. Things to work on would be making the theoretical strengths of the list strengths in reality, e.g. the superior firepower (quoted from previous dwarf army book) actually capable of killing a few things for its points.

Arhalien
23-01-2007, 19:07
On the loremaster subject, didn;t someone mention a warrior mage character? Maybe this will be instead of loremaster? Make quite a nice general for a saphery themed army.

Glorfindel
24-01-2007, 21:28
On the loremaster subject, didn;t someone mention a warrior mage character? Maybe this will be instead of loremaster? Make quite a nice general for a saphery themed army.

That's a theme I was hoping to see. I hope they think alot about different army themes when they remake the high elves ... Saphery, Caledor, Chrace, Lothern etc.

Maren
24-01-2007, 21:54
What the h*ll is "I@C"?

vinush
25-01-2007, 00:00
Intrigue at court.

I'm pretty sure it's been explained somewhere along the way in this thread.

Vince.

Maren
25-01-2007, 09:54
Thank you

eleveninches
25-01-2007, 10:37
I expect the return of eltharion and korhil and maybe alarielle, as their rules have been on GWs website for a while

Arhalien
25-01-2007, 10:45
I was considering using eltharion at one point, let me get 2 units of swordmasters, and he has a good model. Wonder if he'll be changed if they put him back in.

edit : Von wibble, about the mage in armour. I think it;s an ommission from the rulebook,as isn;t htere an empire itme that says it's armour that lets mages cast spells? That would suggest that mages still can;t cast with armour but it;s been missed out fo the rulebook.

WLBjork
26-01-2007, 21:41
Not exactly, rather the rules state that only characters that have/can buy "mundane" armour can purchase magic armour (BRB pg 121, "Magic Armour").

I agree that a lot of the rumours on the first page sound like ideas that will be tested as the book develops. Some will remain, some will be rejected.

505
27-01-2007, 02:00
I doubt the everqueen will be a special char :mad: (to bad I think)

mainly cause she is kinda like Eriella of the WE the token of peace per say (even know she doesn't attack but stops them from attacking). and when the WE book came out they didn't put the fairy in cause they said she represents the peacefull aspect and not thewar, so she didn't fit in to the warhammer world.

I would love to see the everqueen though and her maiden guard:D

Xavier
27-01-2007, 03:00
Difference being High Elves aren't Wood Elves, the Everqueen has no need to represent their peaceful aspect, since she will fight if she needs to for her people and isn't trying to balance the good and evil natures of her people as is required for the Asrai.

505
28-01-2007, 02:09
I hope so.

skaven and chaos players hate it when I pull her out....then smilingly I tel them Im using her just as a mage. (unless they don't know her rules then I ....muahahaha)

jp22102000
14-04-2007, 00:55
anything about the sea guard list? i dout it will be made a seperate army (also i don't think it needs to be one) but i hope it will be possible to build the list out of the army book. im wondering if the Sea Guard will lose the 0-1 slot and still stay core but i have not heard anything yet (i was building a sea guard army but stopped waiting to see what the book brings out.

Arhalien
14-04-2007, 10:33
Ermm, there was a more recent version of this (in fact, there have been at least 2 since this one). Have a look in Possible HE Tidbit, also floating around General somewhere.

BobbJoe
16-07-2007, 02:13
i heard that the HE can now field IG troopers with their spearmen. It seems that the two worthless unit types have finaly found eachother.

Corrupt
16-07-2007, 11:31
i heard that the HE can now field IG troopers with their spearmen. It seems that the two worthless unit types have finaly found eachother.

Do the IG still get thier plasma for killing dwarves and knights?