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Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 14:14
We all know that Warhammr 40,000 is set in the year 40,999, and has been for years. Is this really necessary? I wouldn't mind if they advanced the plot past the year 41,000, but kept the game name as 40,000. I just don't see what the big deal is.

This may be a bit of a pointless thread, but humour me. Does anybody have any reasons why it should not be advanced past 40,999, and who would like it to move forward?

Luke
20-12-2006, 14:22
Plot? What plot? 40k is and always has been one big, dark, emo, unmoving lump where everyone is doomed to war forever and ever. Anything new that actually happened occurred in the distant and smokey past or all at once just last year sometime.

Do I want it to move forward? Sure, maybe as long as they dont turn it into one lame, pathetic cheesed out hollywood movie script like the new horus heresy background material.

Forbiddenknowledge
20-12-2006, 14:30
Move it forward, but not in the sense of, "oh, we are now 10 years in the future. Base you battles around this."

It would have to be more fluff - more encounters, stuff written like a new tyranid fleet for example, appears in the year 025 M42 and planets X and Y are devoured.

Sarge
20-12-2006, 14:38
Or, the Tau expand their Empire even further into the Imperium, and thus offically gain Human auxillaries!

Hopefully, they'll do this, move the plot along, release some new models, some new rules, and hopefully fix the major bugs in the 4th ed. But what do you expect, it's GWS, they've been playing to the lowest common denominor for quite a while. Don't expect it to change.

Gaebriel
20-12-2006, 14:40
Advance the plot. Do this by issuing yearly factbooks, which include historical information on how each race fared, and what happened on a galactic scale (if any). Tie into this results from Tournaments, Campaigns, everything officially held (and controlled). With every new Codex, include the current development.

This can be done carefully, so it doesn't change marketing plans, and has next to no impact on rules. However, we'll never see it.

EarlGrey
20-12-2006, 14:47
I always assumed the plot advanced for each revision of the rules. Look at the Tyranid book for example; each new Tyranid codex has introduced a new hive fleet. The Tau are in their third sphere expansion with the latest codex...
Although it's going at a glacial pace, the plot does seem to be advancing.

SwordsofChaos
20-12-2006, 14:56
I think the plot is advancing, but it´s going slow because GW is busy attempting to please the community with new models and codices.

Luke
20-12-2006, 15:00
It's not advancing one iota. They are simply clarifying and expanding upon existing ideas. The nids were always there, just because they have named a few fleets and new beasts, everyone seems to think they are deadly new threats when the fluff itself says they were in existence before the "current" year. Just now we get a few more names and some more info.

Same goes with the necrons and the tau. THey were always there, just hidden and making their first steps towards conquering/ re-conquering the universe. Go back to gorkamorka and necromunda and you will find evidence of both of these races many many years ago.

Partisan Rimmo
20-12-2006, 15:01
I don't want it to move forwards. I prefer it as just the depiction of this faschist empire and the difficult times it existed in. It is, after all, a construct, and I'd rather it remained so, as a sort of historical experiment.

Forbiddenknowledge
20-12-2006, 15:10
Advance the plot. Do this by issuing yearly factbooks, which include historical information on how each race fared, and what happened on a galactic scale (if any). Tie into this results from Tournaments, Campaigns, everything officially held (and controlled). With every new Codex, include the current development.

This can be done carefully, so it doesn't change marketing plans, and has next to no impact on rules. However, we'll never see it.

You sir, have the right idea. This would be perfect, they could collate stuff from everywhere. We could have more campaigns, deciding the outcome of stuff. I know I would buy it every year.

xibo
20-12-2006, 15:17
I guess the star child would add a fifth/sixth god into the chaos codices - at least the imperium will say the _emperor_ is an avatar of chaos.

... And in the Year 001M40, Cadia has fallen to the great enemy...

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 15:18
I think an IA style book released every year or so would be perfect for plot stuff. I only have one of the IA books (Ampilian Project) but the fluff in it is extremely well written, so they already have the staff for such a project.

Forbiddenknowledge
20-12-2006, 15:20
I have Taros, myself, and well, wow. I know it was one world, but the fluff is brilliant, the detail etc.

One of these a year would mean I would never leave GW.

Jan Polder
20-12-2006, 15:44
Well this may sound weird. But 40k is historic wargaming in a siencefiction setting. Remember you're always replaying certains campaigns or battle in a given year. So advancing the timeline is a bit silly imho.

Cheers

Max

Forbiddenknowledge
20-12-2006, 15:54
Um, I'm not. For me, any battle my Eldar or Tau take part in is continuing on. Our campaign will be being set in around +50 from GW, and the mega battle we are planning will prob be the same.

Not everyone follows the "historical Refights".

hiveminion
20-12-2006, 15:59
I don't want it to continue. First of all, Warhammer 41000 is a stupid name.

Secondly, it just doesn't feel right. It's like: "Humanity is dooomed! No wait, they're not that doomed, they live for *another* millenium!":wtf:

I would like it to have an open ending.

Finally, I'd think it would be a better idea to take a backwards step, looking into the 41st millenium with a bit more detail, working out some mysteries that have been left in the fluff by GW.

That said, it would be nice to continue having those climactic, epic world-wide campaigns! Now how do we make those things work together...

Marshal2Crusaders
20-12-2006, 16:04
Factbooks would be awesome but for the love of god they could not contradict a codex. Have a conclusion to the armageddon campaign great, but dont rearrange stuff, certian black library novels and fluff comes to mind

Master Jeridian
20-12-2006, 16:04
We all know that Warhammr 40,000 is set in the year 40,999, and has been for years.

And there was silly old me thinking I could set my games anytime after the Horus Heresy (and during it) with 10,000years of history and an entire galaxy of background to work with...thanks for correcting me, oh mighty fluff god.

40k itself is not an ongoing soap or sci-fi series on TV- it's a setting for your games.

Personally I am happy for it to stay as is. People with even an iota of creativity can find a dark niche at some time in those 10,000years and in some dank part of the galaxy to set their games, campaigns and armies.
Let those with no imagination of their own cry out for GW to spoon feed it to them.

And on a business level- all GW can ever do is say 'it's a draw, everybody wins- especially our marketing team' as has been proven in every campaign they've run. To change the setting, even slightly will have a massive impact on a group of players somewhere- 'Oh, by the way your army just got destroyed- buy a new one'.

Captain Micha
20-12-2006, 16:05
I say advance the story. and Cadia will never fall to the great enemy. They are the imperium! not forces of the imperium. They -are- the Imperium. "hey look a totally uncharted sector... wait... what are cadians doing here.. and how have they been here for 3,000 years?" assuming it is time for it to go to the 41st milenium.

I've always assumed it to be more around the year 40,770 at most.

e033x
20-12-2006, 16:14
I don't want it to continue. First of all, Warhammer 41000 is a stupid name.

Secondly, it just doesn't feel right. It's like: "Humanity is dooomed! No wait, they're not that doomed, they live for *another* millenium!":wtf:
together...

you can have it named warhammer 40000 a very long time... you can have it that way until you reach year 50000 (which is in 'bout 9000 years time).

and does it say that the humans are doomed right away?:wtf: they are facing a slow, painful doom*evil giggle*:skull: and the eldar shall once again rule the universe!:D

Captain Micha
20-12-2006, 16:16
burn the alien kill the mutant purify choas.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 16:21
I don't want it to continue. First of all, Warhammer 41000 is a stupid name.

Why would you need to change the name? Never watched Friday Night Live, on saturday? :p

10th clancannach rangers
20-12-2006, 16:24
Yeah, there seems no reason to suggest that the imperium is on the brink of a complete and utter collapse and this will happenas soon as the last second of the 41st millenium ticks by. Yes they may be being attacked on all sides etc, but they just about managed to hold of the 13th BC.
I dont think the situation is anywhere near as dire as during the heresy

scarletsquig
20-12-2006, 16:28
The main thing that they shot themsleves in the foot by doing is packing too many major events into year 999 of the 41st millenium.. armageddon, medusa, eye of terror... is absolutely every single 40k campaign that is ever run going to be run in future going to be set in year 999?

That's the only thing that bugged me... they should have been a little more careful with managing timelines in the fluff.

I think the best solution might be to shove all the dates back a millenia by releasing a new definition of the imperial dating system... so that every piece of history that occured in the current "40th millenium" would actually be set in the 39th millenium... giving a complete 1000 year clean slate to fill very cautiously... perhaps have the 40k date tied to real life date? e.g. if GW run a campaign in 2008, it'll be set in the year 40008 in the 40k universe...

That should be the most intelligent solution to the current mess :)

Gaebriel
20-12-2006, 17:35
...
Secondly, it just doesn't feel right. It's like: "Humanity is dooomed! No wait, they're not that doomed, they live for *another* millenium!":wtf:

I would like it to have an open ending.
...

The timeline can improve and still retain the open ending. I think you're thinking too big here. Humanity has been on the brink of destruction for near 10,000 years, so another couple of 100 wouldn't necesarily mean to force a sollution.


Factbooks would be awesome but for the love of god they could not contradict a codex. ...
Contradicting? The key is to disconnect background from the rules and vice versa. Codices should contain rules, perhaps an in-depth look on the faction's background at the time of printing. In no way would the rules be written only for that frozen moment in "history".


...
40k itself is not an ongoing soap or sci-fi series on TV- it's a setting for your games.
...

What could have been said about the Battletech universe, but it profited enormously from an interestingly expanding timeline...


...
And on a business level- all GW can ever do is say 'it's a draw, everybody wins- especially our marketing team' as has been proven in every campaign they've run. To change the setting, even slightly will have a massive impact on a group of players somewhere- 'Oh, by the way your army just got destroyed- buy a new one'.
Again, a too big perspective I think. An advancing timeline doesn't need galaxy shattering occurences, death of whole factions and their like (though it might help :p ). That's what I meant with "the game environment doesn't have to change against the marketing teams will".

Not every major plot needs to change stats, kill off unit types or produce new ones. Technically, the rule side doesn't need to be changed more than these days - a few new impulses each year. Just produce a background that seems dynamic, breathing, alive - not a frozen moment in time.

ImBiginKorea
20-12-2006, 17:39
The Laws of Reality in 40k don't crumble if we pass that amazing date of 999. The game will still be called 40k, the time line can move slowly so campaigns can take place in 002 or gasp! 006! Your thinking that the story will be changed dramatically, but its not going to be like that. Perhaps a planet/star system could fall from some crazy war, but then it can just be reclaimed in the next. The humans will not die, chaos will not take over the universe, the nids will not eat every one, etc....

By doing this they can actually incorporate the results of the worldwide campaigns to tweak the up coming fluff, or add extra rules/units to the armies.

The history progressing really is just one big clerical error, fear the magic number! On the new year of the 41 millennium all of our computers will freak out and reset! OH NOES!

--Korea


*ACK Gaebriel beat me to it

Brother Antonios
20-12-2006, 17:57
Eventually the pressure will be so great GW will be forced to advance the timeline. If they are prepared for it; we will all benefit. If they are not prepared for it and insist on keeping us battling in 999, everbody in the hobby losses because they will do a rush job to catch up with whatever forced them to advance it.

GW is not having the best financial results as a money making buisness, pushing the timeline forward in a planned and major way would be a great way to reinvigorate some of the stale markets.

Regardless the timeline will advance, weather GW does it or a goup of likeminded players get together and advance it themselves with a super popular internet project, it will happen.

Pressures building GW, will you blow or release some steam by advancing the timeline?

My opinion; if the timeline does not advance by the release/or with the v5 rulebook another system will step up and take a large chunk of the market.

Josiah
20-12-2006, 18:01
We need to see the Dragon wake up, 1 or 2 of the missing primarchs come back, abaddon get daemonhood and cause chaos, the "main" part of the tyranid fleet arrive(I know, I know), the eldar and dark eldar go into a war for some reason, and have the orks go even more ballistic and do a massive crusade.

Oh, and the tau launch their 4th sphere expansion and rediscover the squats.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 18:03
Josiah, those are the exact things we don't need. More C'tan? Primarchs? They make good HISTORY, but not good current fluff.

Captain Micha
20-12-2006, 18:37
but we've already got 2 lol (c'tan)

sigur
20-12-2006, 18:39
No, nay, never. Not at any point in the future GW should proceed with the "plot" of Warhammer 40000. If the last few years have proven something then the fact that GW seems to have run out of good fluff writers. Basically, GW has been struggling with the background of 40k quite a bit since they don't seem to have it under control. They would like it to be a compact, little story, of course totally epic and really, really dark and incredibly gothic but still compact and with a simple "main story", so everyone who's familiar with Hollywood movies will feel at home in this universe.

Luckily, the 40k background isn't built that way, at least not completely. If GW proceeded with the background, they'd totally ruin it. Really. It would be turned into a simplistic plot. What we have with the current background isn't a plot (thank the emperor), it's a situation. And I believe that this is the proper way to describe fantasy worlds/universes/dimensions: Describing a situation in which the players act and interact with the world and each other.

And why would anyone want GW to proceed with the background? I really see no reason in that since the 40k background is so rich and still gives you enormous freedom to act and work out your own background. If some of you are into these summer campaigns - that's fine as long as GW doesn't go for the odd "the biggest thing ever is about to happen!!!1"-approach but rather keeps it limited as in the Medusa V thing. Enabling players to actually have an influence on what happens in the 40k universe would be quite a nightmare in my opinion. There is no interactiveness about it and still, it's the most interactive thing you can think of since, as mentioned above, you have such great freedom to design your own planets, campaigns, ... everything you want.

The thing is that you have to make things yourself. I think that this is a bit of a problem with the GW main systems nowadays (and, as always, it's more extreme in 40k than in WHFB): All this focusing on what is "official" and what is not, what is "tourney legal" and what is not, forced players into a nonage (hope that this is the right word).

There are flaws in this game, that's for sure, but as sure as that, the background isn't one of those.

Sarge
20-12-2006, 20:04
Advance in fluff would be awesome. Releasing new experimental races (like they did with the necron) would be wonderful too. And giving the more progressive races (Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar) more unit choices or tech, would make a lot of sense. New rules to make the game more strategic, and less... lame, would reinvigorate the game.

But will it ever happen? Not with the current GWS staff.

Master Jeridian
20-12-2006, 20:19
Have to agree with sigur!

What exactly can you get out of progressing the timeline that could not be done in the 10,000 years and entire galaxy of time and space?
With a tiny bit of effort you can set up your own little sector of the galaxy, anywhere between the Horus Heresy and 'present day'- and have your own IG regiments, worlds, armies, crusades, invasions, etc.

I hope GW don't give in to those who lack their own imagination and need to be spoon fed.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 20:22
If the last few years have proven something then the fact that GW seems to have run out of good fluff writers.

They are there, it just seems the Forge World department pays better thant he rest of Games Workshop.

Sarge
20-12-2006, 21:06
Lets hope GWS sells the game to Forge World.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 21:08
FW is a subsiduary company of GW.

Sarge
20-12-2006, 21:09
Than lets hope that GW starts listening to FW more often.

bertcom1
20-12-2006, 21:23
Tyranids and particularly Tau were a mistake, as was the Eye of Terror campaign, in terms of allowing players full access to the background.

With the Marines, Chaos, Imperial Guard, Orks and Eldars, battles and campaigns can be set across any time since the Heresy.

Sisters of Battle can only be used after M36, but that's still 5000 years available for players to set their games.

Necrons have always been present at a low level, but explaining monoliths and c'tans can only really be done in M40 or later.

Tyranids and Tau are the Johnny come Latelys of 40k. It is just not credible for them to be present in anything earlier than midway through M41.

The Eye of Terror was supposed to be Abaddons 13th crusade, the one that was prophecied to destroy the Imperium and change the galaxy forever. It sure doesn't look like that has happened.

GW have effectively written players of Tau, Tyranid and Necron armies into a very tiny corner. Any campaigns involving these forces can only be set within a few hundred years, and this is too restrictive.

There needs to be a couple thousand years space to accommodate these armies.

Sarge
20-12-2006, 22:31
By mistake you mean when they were placed into the fluff timeline.

spacemonkey
20-12-2006, 23:19
The main thing that they shot themsleves in the foot by doing is packing too many major events into year 999 of the 41st millenium.. armageddon, medusa, eye of terror... is absolutely every single 40k campaign that is ever run going to be run in future going to be set in year 999?

That's the only thing that bugged me... they should have been a little more careful with managing timelines in the fluff.
Bugs me too. I think GW would do well accept that things have pushed into the 42nd millienium, at least a couple years. That said, I don't necessarily agree with continuing to push the 40k timeline on and on. As others have said there are 10,000 years in which games and campaigns can be set.


Tyranids and particularly Tau were a mistake...

GW have effectively written players of Tau, Tyranid and Necron armies into a very tiny corner. Any campaigns involving these forces can only be set within a few hundred years, and this is too restrictive.


By mistake you mean when they were placed into the fluff timeline.
I agree with Sarge. The Tau and Tyranids should have entered the scence at least a few hundred years earlier (closer to the beginning of the 41st millenium than the end).

Mojaco
20-12-2006, 23:21
Tau and Tyranids a mistake? Two non-MEQ armies? I'm very glad they're in there, both game-wise and fluff-wise. Why would the same forces persist 10.000 years? New additions and deductions only make sense. And both have been around long enough for people to play with in any campaign. Army characters are all from the past millennium, so it's not too much of a stretch to have character-led armies clash with the new races.

I say keep the time-line. I'm as curious as the next to what would happen, but that's the beauty; it can be anything you'd like it to be. Dislike nids and tau? Only accept the hooks and angles that mean they're as good as dead and regard the rest as untrustworthy Imperial reporting/Eldar lies.

I like the setting as it is.

Gen_eV
21-12-2006, 00:39
I honestly couldn't care any less about the storyline.. Sure, it's important to have SOME background, but really, I just want to get onto the table and blow stuff up with my Terminators:p

Master Jeridian
21-12-2006, 02:04
The Tau are the most restricted in timeline, followed closely by Nids.

Still, they have a good 2-300 years to play with. Where the Tau suffer more is in territory- they occupy a very small area of space on the Eastern Fringe. And since Tau are very popular, when designing campaigns you have to base them along the Tau Empire border or have some lame excuse for how the Tau have traveled so far from their Empire to fight (like Medusa).
This essentially cuts out most of the galaxy when running a campaign- a shame really.

hiveminion
21-12-2006, 15:20
Why is it a problem that 'Nids are restricted in timeline? What would be interesting in their fluff. It's just a lot of aliens killing lots of planets and then being defeated (or diverted, as happened to Leviathan). Honestly more fluff on Tyranids would be more of the same (that is not to say the 'Nid fluff isn't fun to read...).

Btw if you read the 'Nid dex you'll see that the next Hive Fleet will attack the Imperium within an matter of years. This attack will be even more devastating then Leviathan. This Hive Fleet will be followed by another one, which will come even faster. Soon, the entire race (the main force) will hurl itself against the Imperium.
Advancing the timeline just brings one-sided carnage OR a weak excuse to prevent the galaxy from being consumed.

Reflex
21-12-2006, 15:44
more important stuff to worry about, like fixing up the fluff they have atm... ie all the space marine fluff, all the chaos fluff, etc...

Josiah
21-12-2006, 15:53
Josiah, those are the exact things we don't need. More C'tan? Primarchs? They make good HISTORY, but not good current fluff.

Nah, it would give me a few more excuses to scream and cry at the smurf/cron players.

:evilgrin: