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The_Outsider
23-12-2006, 20:48
I have just started DE after many years of playing power armoured (or necrodermis covered) races and would like to see how well received DE are in the warseer community.

1) Do you see them as competitive?

2) Is their codex like the old eldar codex (i.e only half of it is worth its points)?

3) Do you like them (be it for fluff / models / whatever)?

And lastly....

4) Do you like / dislike facing them?

I am mostly curious to see if they are considered a power gamer's army (not matter how difficult they are to play) or are just a general forgotten shelf filler.

On a side note, in your opinion - WWP or Raiders?

RampagingRavener
23-12-2006, 20:58
1. Yes, used properly Dark Eldar are very competative. However, it's a steep learning curve, and you will lose a lot while getting used to the army.

2. Yea, to some degree, many of the units are of limited use. Grotesques, Mandrakes, Hellions, and Scourges are all second-rate units, though do have some limited uses against certain armies.

3. Love 'em, both fluff and gameplay. The models are a bit tired but still work fine and can be made a lot better with some minor conversion work.

4. Don't know-I've only played as them, never against them.

Finally, I go for Raiders over WWP.

Vandur Last
23-12-2006, 21:27
1) Certainly competitive. Although being so frail and deadly makes them dangerous both to the opponent and to themselves.

2) It seems most lists centre around lots of Darklances, so i guess the other options must not be too hot.

3) Worst models ever made by GW. The old "Clown of Death" was pretty bad, but not as bad as DE warriors. They seriously need to get rid of the improbably-huge-spikes look and make them look either more like rag-tag pirates
or fantasy Dark Elves.
As for whether or not i like the fluff/background.... ill let you know what i think when they decide to write some.

4) Id like to face them. At least its not another MEQ army right?


The raiders are the transports right? Yeah go for those and load them up with Darklance toting warriors.

Tulun
23-12-2006, 21:35
Pretty simple: Models need an update. Their codex is VERY competitive, as long as you avoid some of the 'meh' choices.

Latro_
23-12-2006, 23:27
yea def an army that can be killa if used right, very unlike marines in the mistakes you can make.

your basic warrior unit is prety good, for a marine minus 7 pts you get a bs 4 guy and the option to have 2 good anti inf or anti tank weps in the unit.

DE like orks also have the assault out of moving vehicles tactic still, which is key. you can get a huge charge, 12+2.9+d6+6 :P

The_Outsider
23-12-2006, 23:52
Cool.

I intend to run a raider list anyway (i'm a sucker for rhino rush but that sadly doesn't work). I do like the fact that they can (supposedly) really own if played right and first turn charges are just awesome (goddamn shame incubi can't fleet, they have to wait until turn 2).

The ability to get lots of really cheap nasty weapons (i.e dark lance and disintergrator) is really appealing, i'm just going to miss not getting an armour save vs bolters :(

Anyway, keep your opinions coming!

Bregalad
24-12-2006, 12:27
You will find a new "are DE competitive?" thread at least every two months on warseer. As most forum users don't change their opinion on DE that fast, just use the search to find these 10+ threads.

Baneboss
24-12-2006, 12:33
DE are getting slowly more and more popular. Weird as they are slowly pulled out of the stores.

LostTemplar
24-12-2006, 13:11
Dark eldar are generally fine, both as an Army, and as a Army List.

Popular choices tend to be either using an asssault on first turn army. However, from my experience, this isn't the optimal usage of their list.

The REAL Dark Eldar are to be played as a "first turn charge" yes, but not on the first turn. You do NOT have to set everythign for a first turn, since you can afford redeploying your entire army in the very first turn you play.

They are very frail if fired upon, so optimal usage of Dark Eldar minimizes return fire, while concentrating fire on one or two units.

Lastly, there are other weapons other than the dark lance. The Splinter cannon is a real good choice when coupled with a large squad that is moving to seize objectives, as its 4 shots are fired at 24 inches non stop, and you can field two. The Desintegrator, is a awesome weapon still, that serves to further enhance the role of "anti infantry" most the list can be geared to have.

they will excell at blasting enemy clusters, bdue to beign blast weapons, annd even their alternate mode of fire, can cripple a space marine squad in the open.

A note. All tanks should field the Night Shield upgrade. it is really handy for maneuvereing durign the game. The heavy weapon choice for the tank depends on what you need to do with the tank.

Lastly, their Archon/Drachons are horrific to face. Fast, killer, and only goes down, when it fails its save for the first time. Generally, it'll do so many attacks, that there won't be return combat in CC, but when facing fire, it'll die quickly, due to the save failing (eventually)

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
24-12-2006, 13:27
1) Those who play them well definitly can be competitive.

2) Yup, they need an update.

3) My least favourite army (fluff/look-wise), but dont hate them like most. I think they definitly need new models and new fluff and I dont think like some they should go the way of the squats because I know many people who like them, and in the stores near where I live are actually gaining popularity. I think they have potential to be much better and more popular.

4) it makes a nice change to face them.

Morgrad
24-12-2006, 16:52
1. Yes. Well played DEs are 'ard.

2. Sorta - every list has sub-prime choices. It's all in what you do with them.

3. Fluff - yes, but needs more. Models - pretty crappy overall, but some (like raiders) I think are quite cool. Playstyle - definately a yes - they're very hard-hitting but quite fragile, which makes for fun games.

4. I like facing anything but Necrons, so yeah - I like facing DEs.

suplicor
24-12-2006, 16:56
My wife plays a Dark Eldar Wytch Cult,and if I don't shoot the $%^#@ out of them,she can do some nasty stuff to my Wolves in close combat.

Goq Gar
24-12-2006, 17:09
Whats that you say? an entire army of 5+ saves? And whats that? ALL pulse weapons are AP5? Really!? You dont say!

Light of the Emperor
24-12-2006, 17:31
The DE are awesome. A good friend of mine has 6000 points of them. He can field any style DE army possible. The most effective however, is the DE airforce:
Archon on bike
Drachon (optional) on a raider
2 wych squads in raiders
4 raider squads
2 reaver squads
3 ravagers (all with disintegrators)

DE have to be on the move so I'd limit the darklances to the raiders. In terms of the raider squads, give every sybarite an agonizer which allows him to deal with anything. The squad should have a splinter cannon and blaster...both allow them to move and fire. The ravagers with their disintegrators give you 9 plasma cannon type shots. Very effective.
If you want to be truely evil, give a squad a WWP and have a talos come out of it.

eldaran
24-12-2006, 17:49
Dark Eldar, as has been said before, are an exceptionally powerful army to use, but like 3rd ed Eldar, are a nightmare to use. I have only played them once, and i almost got completely owned, if my command squad hadn't been exceptionally lucky (I scraped a minor victory by the skin of 3 victory points).

One tactic (the tactic that my opponent used) consisted of 3 full unit of Wyches, a couple of Raider squads and an Archon in a raider. The Archon had webway portals and the same for the Succubi in the raider squads. the tactic was that the raiders zoomed forward in turn one and opened the webway portals to 60 drugged-up wyches, who wiped out a lot of my army, but then got beaten and run off by a lot of luck.

to cut my rant short, one of the problems with DE is that most of the popular and powerful tactics, like the above one, rely on them getting first turn., since raiders are FRAGILE (even on a glance, they have a 50% chance of being destroyed)

Thankds for paying attention

Asentaja
24-12-2006, 17:55
Love my Archon, having 6 WS6 attack, rerolling failed hits, wounding always on 4+, ignoring armour saves, 2+ invunerable save, 12" assault move and fleet of foot.
The Dark Eldar are fragile, but deadly. Takes a while to get used to 'em, but that wasn't too great a problem for me. Mostly while playing against my friends I whipe the floor with them :evilgrin: .

Hicks
24-12-2006, 18:23
1) They can be very hard to play against. My friend plays them and it's really tough to beat him with my IG. His units are just too fast and he owns me in CC.

2) I would say yes, in fact here is my list of the good stuff: Lord, Haemonculus, Incubis, Witches, bikes, raiders, warriors.

3) The fluff is ok, but there is not alot of it and they aren't often seen in other races fluff wich is kinda sad. The models... well, I don't like them at all.

4) I think that they are cool to fight against, but they are my main opponent after all.

The_Outsider
24-12-2006, 18:28
Ohh, lots of replies, keep'em coming.

I do intend to make a competitive list (mostly via the raider) and it will be the first army i make where I intentiaonally go for a tournament style list.

All these replies tell one thing (which is important) while their models may suck and they have little fluff, with a bit of practice they can destroy anything on their terms.

This pleases me a lot (hey, I like violent armies).

eldaran
24-12-2006, 18:35
If i was you, i would have a look at the codex, decide how to cover the weaknesses of the Raiders as much as possible. Personally, i would suggest that you have in the army:

Archon with agonizer, splinter pistol
Incubi retinue in Raider

3 Raider squads, each with blaster and dark lance.

Ravager-at least one-use a disintegrator

i don't know the codex that well, but those are the must-haves off the top of my head.

(By the way, i saw a Dark Eldar army in a conflict that was made of converted eldar, which i thought looked pretty cool. for me, it just got over the basic idea of what the Dark Eldar are without detail)

Clang
24-12-2006, 18:47
Worst basic troops models ever - they looked embarrassing next to the previous generation space marines when 3rd Ed first came out, and look even sadder now. A few of the later metal models do look a whole lot better.

If I was building an DE army, I'd probably do as mentioned by eldaran and use the spiffy new Eldar plastics, nastily corrupted in some way, to represent a force of ex-Eldar recently seduced to the Dark Side, or a force of Dark Eldar who delight in mocking their Eldar foes by wearing descrated Eldar armour taken as battle trophies.

eldaran
24-12-2006, 18:54
Thanks. Specaking from memory, when he showed me his complete army, he used striking scorpion models for the Incubi (just wanted to mention). Anyway, the only Dark Eldar models he used were raiders, ravagers and wyches (because there weren't any equivalents)

xibo
24-12-2006, 19:18
Although Dark Elves got the best models in GW's current range, dark eldars got the worst. A fate, as DE are quite challenging to play with.

Asentaja
24-12-2006, 19:31
The warrior models aren't so bad... Through some conversion and not using the heads with the crazy hair (which are best used to represent the Cruelsome Talismans wargear:D ), I managed to make my warrior squads look somewhat decent.

And since no one has said it yet, I might add that the DE is propably the army that needs to use the terrain to its advantage the most. Using the terrain correctly keeps your troops alive and paper planes (raiders) flying.

Bregalad
24-12-2006, 19:53
As I said in several previous DE threads, my solution to the "good rules bad minis" is to use a Kroot mercenary force ("good models bad rules") "counting as" DE. Have a look at the other threads to see some more of this idea.

Pacific
25-12-2006, 00:49
Played a DE army with my armoured company IG not long ago. First turn I lost a single leman Russ and another immoblised. When it reached his second turn the models he had left on the table were picked up and put straight back into his carry case...

Definately one of the hardest armies to use in 40k..

The_Outsider
25-12-2006, 01:20
To be fair though, armoured company is pretty hardcore vs anything.

xibo
25-12-2006, 01:29
To be fair though, armoured company is pretty hardcore vs anything.
Nope. It's just an all-or-nothing army. Try to field them against ballanced tau... or the feared-by-everybody-tourney Iron Warriors... bai bai mister russes...

The_Outsider
25-12-2006, 01:46
Those 2 particulay armies do do very well, but I doubt any friendly list is going to have enough anti tank to stop that many russes.

Then again, stunning them and then hitting them with anything decent AV would work.

toxic_wisdom
25-12-2006, 02:53
Played a DE army with my armoured company IG not long ago. First turn I lost a single leman Russ and another immoblised. When it reached his second turn the models he had left on the table were picked up and put straight back into his carry case...

Definately one of the hardest armies to use in 40k..

I'm gonna take an educated guess and bet there were no WWPs in the DE list.

Morgrad
25-12-2006, 04:57
Those 2 particulay armies do do very well, but I doubt any friendly list is going to have enough anti tank to stop that many russes.

Then again, stunning them and then hitting them with anything decent AV would work.

Basically any tyranid list (EVER!) has no problem at all beating all-tank armoured company. Even the lowly gargoyle can pop tanks from behind - and pie-plates can only do 1 wound at a time on MCs - which means the obligatory minimum of 3 MCs will need at least 12 hits to kill them, and that's if they get no saves and you roll no 1s to wound.

DEs can actually be very ugly against armoured company - but as with many armies against AC, if the AC player is lucky early, they win big.

Pacific
25-12-2006, 08:32
Basically any tyranid list (EVER!) has no problem at all beating all-tank armoured company. Even the lowly gargoyle can pop tanks from behind - and pie-plates can only do 1 wound at a time on MCs - which means the obligatory minimum of 3 MCs will need at least 12 hits to kill them, and that's if they get no saves and you roll no 1s to wound.

DEs can actually be very ugly against armoured company - but as with many armies against AC, if the AC player is lucky early, they win big.

Thats quite true actually Morgrad... I find that I have very few close run games, instead it is usually either crushing defeat or victory. The one game ive played against Tau resulted in my **** being handed back to me in no uncertain terms, but the DE have nothing which can match their horrible anti-armour weaponry.

Although I havent tried it yet, I'd be willing to bet that a standard IG army with heavy weapons (heavy bolters/autocannon) would make a mess of those T3 Dark Eldar in the same way it does with their poncy half-brothers :cheese:

Also, with the exception of the Possessed chaos space marines, I think some of the DE models are the worst to come out in 40k over recent years. Therefore I view it as an obligation to wipe them from the face of the gameboard :D

skyfurnace
25-12-2006, 11:52
I have just started DE after many years of playing power armoured (or necrodermis covered) races and would like to see how well received DE are in the warseer community.


1) Do you see them as competitive?

I see them as formidible. I'm not sure if that's the same as competitive.

I mean, could a solid DE army go into a tournament and win on strategy, sportsmanship and the ability to take it to all comers? I guess it's possible.

When DE are doing what they do, they do it better than almost anyone else in the game. When DE aren't doing what they do, they're dying and losing.

That being said, the DE in the hands of the right COMPETITOR would be competitive, certainly. As an army on paper, they're merely formidible.


2) Is their codex like the old eldar codex (i.e only half of it is worth its points)?

I've only glanced through the DE codex a few times to check out wargear and weapons I need to know. I can't answer that.


3) Do you like them (be it for fluff / models / whatever)?

Personally, no. I think the idea of the Dark Eldar is a little too lame and "oogey-boogey." We have Chaos, and that adds a nice supernatural, Lovecraftian element to things. Why do we have to have Hellraiser and Clive Barker as well?

Here's the deal; I think that if the Dark Eldar were THE Slaneesh army, things would be a lot more interesting. I think that would be a HELL of a lot more interesting than the Emperor's Children... but that's just a preference thing.

The models are just a little too baroque-freaky for me, as well. Well, I mean the ones that don't look like Cenobites, anyway. The Wytches would just be cooler as the Daemonettes of Slaneesh. A demon choice unique to the DE that was right up there with the Bloodletter. THAT would be cool... I just don't like the models that I've seen. The Skimmers are just ripoffs of Jabba's Sailbarge from Return of the Jedi.

Drow in space is just... no. Not so much. No...


And lastly....

4) Do you like / dislike facing them?

I am mostly curious to see if they are considered a power gamer's army (not matter how difficult they are to play) or are just a general forgotten shelf filler.

I think that it depends on who is playing them. You'll certainly find that yes, they are a bit of a power gamer's one-trick-pony with all of their Darklances and their bazillion attacks in CC... but at the same time, I've played people who are just trying out something new and trying to put a new spin on a completely different way of thinking when it comes to strategy and playing 40K.

Dark Eldar are not MEqs. They rely on quick hit and run type raids and shock and awe. They can't stand up to a dug in force that's in it for the long haul. They kick like a mule, but they don't have staying power as a general rule if you start to wear them down or break up their momentum.

They're a tough army in the right hands. However, they can always be beaten.

RedShirt
26-12-2006, 05:14
I would like to think they are competative (but as many people here have mentioned, this is only in the right hands) I've only competed in 2 tournaments with mine (3 if you count the tagteam one) but right now my track record with them are 4-2 (2 massacares, 2 solids Victories, and 2 minor defeats) The only game I've ever actually been massacared in was my very first one (huge learning experience there...didn't help that I had bought my army off someone else and didn't have the models I wanted to field the army I would have liked). I've come close a few times, but usually manage to earn enough VP's in the last turn or 2 to keep it at a minor.
First turn is a huge bonus, but I tend to not rely on getting it and deploy accordingly.

I personally have rarely/never used Grotesques, Mandrakes, and Scourges. I have them yes, but don't use them (mainly because they aren't assembled or painted) because they cost a lot of points for very little effect. I can see their uses, but they don't fit with my army configuration (Raider army)

I've always loved them. As mentioned, they are a very fragile army and therefore very unforgiving. It requires you to really plan your moves carefully so you can deal the most damage, but not leave yourself vulnerable. You can't rely on 3+ or high vehicle armour. You're biggest strength is speed. Being able to redeploy your entire army in 1 turn can completely throw off your opponent's strategy.

Yes the models need some work (replaced completely in most cases), but they work. I just avoid the extra spikey-bits and keep darker colour scheme (Midnight Blue/Gore Red).

And being the only Dark Eldar player in my gaming area (and my old area too) I've never played against them. But I do know that my fellow gamers here enjoy playing against me because it's never and easy win if they do manage to win (like they were used to from playing against other DE players in other areas).

Brother Antonios
26-12-2006, 05:43
Since fluff hasn't been commented on much; here is what I would consider good fluff. First Nightbringer is a great DE vs. SM story. It gives you some great insight into how the DE function outside thier homeworld. Next up would be Let The Galaxy Burn I seem to remember at least two and maybe three stories in that book that featured the DE and revealed a little about them. Commorragh is even the setting for one of the storeis in LGB.

I think the Eldar and Dark Eldar have the potential for the best background in the game, after all they have millions of years of background.

Oh and their is always this nice quick fluff read from GW...
http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkeldar/torturer/

luchog
26-12-2006, 19:41
Personally, no. I think the idea of the Dark Eldar is a little too lame and "oogey-boogey." We have Chaos, and that adds a nice supernatural, Lovecraftian element to things. Why do we have to have Hellraiser and Clive Barker as well?
Because they're two entirely different things, and some of us happen to like the Clive Barker-esque feel of the DE.


Here's the deal; I think that if the Dark Eldar were THE Slaneesh army, things would be a lot more interesting. I think that would be a HELL of a lot more interesting than the Emperor's Children... but that's just a preference thing.

Except that DARK ELDAR ARE NOT CHAOS. They are every bit as opposed to Slaanesh as the Craftworld Eldar and Exodite Eldar are; and hate and fear She Who Thirsts at least as much. They are the last remnants of the degenerate pre-Fall Eldar, and have their own culture and agenda. There is no more connection between the DE and Chaos than there is between the CE or Exodites and Chaos.

To turn DE into Chaos Eldar would be a serious loss, and would destroy one of the most unusual and idiosyncratic races in the game.

There are Chaos Eldar, but they are completely different from any of the other Eldar.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
26-12-2006, 19:44
Chaos has never been Lovecraftian enough for me, the main reason id never collect them and I dont like marines much either. I'd much prefer a proper traditional Cthulhu army.

I never looked ar DE as being Clive Barker/Hellrasier Esque before, but now I think about it, its the kind of direction they should take IMO. Make them more cenobite-like.

I also agree making them into Chaos Eldar would be boring and uninteresting, does every ***** force in 40k need a chaos equivilent ? its really tedious..chaos this and chaos that *yawn*

TheSanityAssassin
26-12-2006, 19:48
1) Do you see them as competitive? Very much so, assuming they're well played. In the hands of someone used to MEQ's they get butchered.

2) Is their codex like the old eldar codex (i.e only half of it is worth its points)? Yes. I've never seen anyone take mandrakes or scourges or grotesques in competative games, and in friendlies only rarely, as they're just not worth anything.

3) Do you like them (be it for fluff / models / whatever)? I like the fluff, and a couple of the models...incubi, the female lord and a few of the wytches, but most of the line needs to be fixed.

And lastly....

4) Do you like / dislike facing them? Usually like it. They're actually my most common opponant, and we have a running grudge match, so its lots of fun.

Cruentus
26-12-2006, 20:31
One tactic (the tactic that my opponent used) consisted of 3 full unit of Wyches, a couple of Raider squads and an Archon in a raider. The Archon had webway portals and the same for the Succubi in the raider squads. the tactic was that the raiders zoomed forward in turn one and opened the webway portals to 60 drugged-up wyches, who wiped out a lot of my army, but then got beaten and run off by a lot of luck.

And this tactic is actually illegal. WWPs can't be used out of vehicles (or jetbikes). Only models on foot (you can give them to models in Raiders, but they need to disembark, and then not move for the next turn to place the portal).

I play DE, and find them to be very competitive (my common opponents are Marines *shock* and Nids). I do very well against both.

It took me awhile to get over my 'marine hangover', thinking that my DE were good in combat (well, they have WS4!). Their unit choices (the effective ones) are limited, and most armies are either Raider Heavy, WWP, or Reaver Heavy (I myself prefer the first two).

The other point is to be careful of upgrades, like the aforementioned Night Shield. They can be rather expensive, and against most dedicated anti-tank firepower, totally useless for your AV10 and AV11 skimmers (points better spent elsewhere).

I find that the models look pretty good (including the warriors), if you go light on the spiky, and actually find a good paint job (not the ugly stuff in the codex or seen in WD).

LostTemplar
26-12-2006, 22:00
REPLY to Cruentus: I gotta say, I disagree. The Night Shield is invaluable, and I personnaly never consider takign a tank without it. However, iIdo not use any tank as a suicide wych-delivery system early (Note, early... I may do it afterwards evidently :P) in the game. If that was the case, then yes, a Night Shield is useless. But otherwise, it will always help you tank survive, especially again the more distant sections of your enemy's firepower, his rapid fire weapons, etc etc.

Back to topic....

Well, time to make a second post...

First off, PLEASE no "Chaos eldar woudl rock." Want Chaos Eldar? Get Dark Eldar, use DH adversaries rules. There. Thats all you need right there. And then they can be Slaanesh Eldars at ease.

The current backgground is fine, if a bit sketchy. For instance, we think, or believe, that Dark eldar consume souls (or rather free'em and let Slaanesh eat'em), but the truth is, probably only the oldest, most powerfull beings do that.

They are much more like vampres, the way I see it, who's hunger grows as they age, untill its unbeareable to them, and of course, impossible to satisfy by those around.

I'd personally like to see the Dark Eldar as the true Eldar race. Afterall, for a few mere survivors from the fall, they do have quite a large number of disposeable bodies. (In case yer wondering, that is how you play Dark Eldar. Everything is disposeable.

Bear that in mind, and you'll do fine.) so to me, I'd love it if GW made'em, like the Exodyte, able to grow their numbers and prosper, though of course, from there to takign over the Galaxy, comes a stupidly long way.

There is a quote, in the Eldar codex that, when referrign to Dark Eldar Cities, they use the term Cities, not City, which leads me to believe the Dark Eldar may be spreading from Comorragh.

Now, next point. they are indeed a "one trick poney" style army, meanign you will always follow the same strategy with the same units. Deploy behidn everythign, deny the enemy any chance to shoot at you, redeploy in second turn, finish units one at a time, or two at a time, per turn. They have it easy when it comes down to redeploying and mounting a ferocious charge.

I personnally laugh when my opponenet dugs in.

Unless they are fielding indirect waponery, they are doomed, 'cause you'll just pick off the mobile units first, then deal with the cover hugging stuff.

Now, in terms of models. the design team made nice sketches and artwork, bu the transiction to the models was poorly executed. The Incubi, the Reavers, the Raider/Ravager, and possibly the Talos, are livign proof the Dark Eldar do have a strong imagery team, but the spikey-cardboard-weraing-60's-comic style for the basic trooper failed.

My own personal view, on the Dark Eldar, woudl have a severe redesign of the base trooper, which'd basically involve makign a lighter armoured Incubi-like suit for warriors. Couples with shoulder slung weaponery and the occasional long coat, or cloak, and you'd have strong, pirate-like Eldar, which is what Dark Eldar, for all intents and purposes are.

I would also love to see a falcon-like vehicle, with scorpion-like appearence to diversify the Army. Afterall, while the ideal Dark Eldar army is essencially, very fast and very deadly, a slower moving skimmer, would do wonders. I would also enjoy seeing the Incubi as an Elites choice, with its numbers limited like the Space Wolves/Chaos Chosen. that'd improve the mercenary feel to them.

A Vyper-like skimmer would be handy, too.

Another modification I'd perhaps do, would be the purchase of drug effects on the Wytches, aswell as a diferent set of Wych Weapons. Removign the extra attack from a second CCw from an enemy is great, but tell me, wouldn't some folks enjoy Rending, for instance?

They are horribly frail when shot at, but given the eficiency of the Agoniser, one would possibly never even use the rending option.

Regardless, thats a bit out of topic.

Answering the points:

1) Yes they are competitive. As any army, they need thinking and optimising for such, but unlike other armies, you need to know how to play it. oh, and terrain.

2) In my oppinion, yes. the only things i find useful are raider, ravagers, archons/dracons/archytes/dracythes, warriors, wytches, reaver jetbikes and Helions are good. the rest, apart from a flamer-wieldign haemonculi on a jetbike, not very much attractive.

3) Obviously. i converted my models from Guardian, Dark Elf and Dark Eldar bits, with greenstuff long coats. they look great, really-Pirate looking, without resorting to spikes. Other than those which are on the weapons.

PS: Last comment is... Why the hell do krrot get an extra attack for using OUR rifle?! We shoudl be given the option to carry blades on the weapon and earn something with that, damnit!

kenny3760
26-12-2006, 22:08
Dark Eldar can be very competitive in the right hands, you've just got to know how to use them. They are extremely fragile with th 5+ armour save, ie, most times you don't get it, so careful planning is required so that you don't subject them to torrents of fire.

Some of the units are either pretty useless or very specialised, depends on your point of view. Archons/Dracons, incubi, wyches, warriors and talos are all good IMO, scourges, mandrakes, hellions and grotesques I have little use for and the rest I am so-so about.

The fluff is ok, but in short supply and the models range from abysmal to pretty decent.

I've never faced them but play them a lot and I've got to sat they are my favourite army to use. I play with a WWP but now considering going to a air force type list to give that a try.

Overall, I would recommend them as being a competitive, fun army to use.

skyfurnace
27-12-2006, 00:01
Because they're two entirely different things, and some of us happen to like the Clive Barker-esque feel of the DE.

Please don't think that for one second I would take anything away from Barker's work with what I said. I don't have the slightest problem with Barker's creations or his concepts as a writer - I'm a fan - but I think that the application of a lot of it to the Dark Eldar is a little bit of overkill.

If overkill is possible in 40K.

In a lot of ways, you could probably INCORPORATE Leviathan as an Eldar diety that, while not outright destroyed by the birth of Slaneesh, was severely damaged and wracked with psyche-numbing agony. It would work out almost seamlessly... but I digress.


Except that DARK ELDAR ARE NOT CHAOS. They are every bit as opposed to Slaanesh as the Craftworld Eldar and Exodite Eldar are; and hate and fear She Who Thirsts at least as much. They are the last remnants of the degenerate pre-Fall Eldar, and have their own culture and agenda. There is no more connection between the DE and Chaos than there is between the CE or Exodites and Chaos.

This is true, and a valid point.

But picture this for a moment; the Craftworld Eldar had an idea of what was coming. They were kind of like Noah. They were building their arks and gathering the people that they could convince to cast their lots with them... but they were the minority. They were VASTLY outnumbered by those who laughed at them and ridiculed them for puritanical doomsday cultists.

Eventually, the arkbuilders left the cradle of Eldar civilization to make their way elsewhere away from the excesses and the deprivations of their fallen soceity.

But they didn't run fast enough... or far enough. Not quite.

So when Slaneesh ripped from the fetid womb that the Eldar had costructed through their corruption, those Eldar that didn't die immediately were deluged with soul-rending affectations of the neonate god - the sum total of every perversity and gluttonous stimulus ever experienced by the whole of their kind.

If you take it from that angle, you can preserve the Barker-esque "priests of suffering" sort of thing and then make them a whole lot more tragic as a race, in that they are reborn in their filth, a product of what they have created with thier jaded debauchery. What's left of Eldar civilization - the Dark Eldar - are shadows. Husks that serve as little more than to cask the pristine corruption that is Slaneesh.

Come at it from that angle, and then you've got a pretty fantastic preface for the Horus Heresy as well. It happened to the Eldar... it coulc happen to Humanity's finest as well, and it does. I dunno... I just think that connecting the DE to Chaos could make a lot of sense fluff-wise.

Hypothetically speaking, If Slaneesh can just unlock some of the secrets that the Harlequins guard in the Black Library... Khorne would become its lapdog. It needs the Dark Eldar to help it "assimilate" the remains of the Eldar race. With the whole of the Eldar subsumed into it - not just their lust, greed, envy, vice, perversity and what have you, but also all of the positive aspects, the entirety of the Eldar Infinity Circuit, the past, present and future of the race as a whole. The whole of those who are the most like the Old Ones. Only when it can do this can it ascend and remake the galaxy in its own image.

I think it adds a whole other facet to Chaos AND the Dark Eldar. I don't think that it lessens the significance of the Dark Eldar, either. I think it definitely makes them a more serious threat to the galaxy-at-large when you look at them under a light like that.

But hey, I'm not writing the screenplay. :D

I'm just thinking "out loud" as such, more than anything.

WhatsHisName
27-12-2006, 00:13
1) Do you see them as competitive?

yes very much so in the right hands they can br very harsh

2) Is their codex like the old eldar codex (i.e only half of it is worth its points)?

erm yes i would say lots of the same units is good thought , people stick to wyche lord, wyches, possible mandrakes, lots of squads with 2 lances,lots of raiders or bikes and some taloses or ravangers.

3) Do you like them (be it for fluff / models / whatever)?

no very keen on many of there modules (new wyches are ok)

And lastly....

4) Do you like / dislike facing them?

i have played quite alot of games vs de in the last 6 months ALL tourament armys and have done ok once you know what to do against the above units you are ok.

I am mostly curious to see if they are considered a power gamer's army (not matter how difficult they are to play) or are just a general forgotten shelf filler.

the problem with dark eldar is the same as eldar frigile (DARK ELDAR ACTUAL ARE FRIGILE) use there speed to your advantage.

i would say yes some times lith and a bodygaurd of wyches id very very harsh in a raider with ANY mission , not to mention the 2+ invun save,

On a side note, in your opinion - WWP or Raiders?

raiders all the way!!!

well good look
martin

luchog
28-12-2006, 18:35
Please don't think that for one second I would take anything away from Barker's work with what I said. I don't have the slightest problem with Barker's creations or his concepts as a writer - I'm a fan - but I think that the application of a lot of it to the Dark Eldar is a little bit of overkill.

I'm not thinking as much of Hellraiser, as I am of Tortured Souls and Imagica. That's more the image I see for the DE. Less of the single-minded daemonic torturers, and more of the political intrigue and twisted alchemical practices.


If you take it from that angle, you can preserve the Barker-esque "priests of suffering" sort of thing and then make them a whole lot more tragic as a race, in that they are reborn in their filth, a product of what they have created with thier jaded debauchery. What's left of Eldar civilization - the Dark Eldar - are shadows. Husks that serve as little more than to cask the pristine corruption that is Slaneesh.

Except that that's strongly opposed to the fluff for the DE. It's quite clear that they're still a vital, if decedant, race, even more than the CE are. They are being drained, but not nearly husks and shadows, thanks to their dark practice of feeding the souls of their victims to She Who Thirsts. They are conquered, but not enslaved. Their culture is really not that far different from CE and EE culture, either; and remember, the most important part of the Harlequin agenda is reunification of all three disparate factions of the race, with the coming of Ynead to destroy Slaanesh and free the Eldar from their bondage. Something that they would not undertake had the DE any ties to Chaos.

There are true Chaos Eldar according to the fluff, but they're completely seperate from the DE. They are not lifeless beings, but are described as the strongest of the servants of Chaos. It's very likely that Chaos cults exist among all three sects of the Eldar, just as they do among the other races, but there is no reason that the DE would be any more prone to them than the CE or EE.


I think it adds a whole other facet to Chaos AND the Dark Eldar. I don't think that it lessens the significance of the Dark Eldar, either.

It really does, though. It pretty much just turns them into yet another Chaos horde. Their culture and agenda are unique, and ultimately fixated on breaking the ties to Slaanesh and ushering in a new Bright Empire.

eldaran
02-01-2007, 10:56
And this tactic is actually illegal. WWPs can't be used out of vehicles (or jetbikes). Only models on foot (you can give them to models in Raiders, but they need to disembark, and then not move for the next turn to place the portal).

I play DE, and find them to be very competitive (my common opponents are Marines *shock* and Nids). I do very well against both.

It took me awhile to get over my 'marine hangover', thinking that my DE were good in combat (well, they have WS4!). Their unit choices (the effective ones) are limited, and most armies are either Raider Heavy, WWP, or Reaver Heavy (I myself prefer the first two).

The other point is to be careful of upgrades, like the aforementioned Night Shield. They can be rather expensive, and against most dedicated anti-tank firepower, totally useless for your AV10 and AV11 skimmers (points better spent elsewhere).

I find that the models look pretty good (including the warriors), if you go light on the spiky, and actually find a good paint job (not the ugly stuff in the codex or seen in WD).

i didn't mention that they disembarked in turn two. sorry

Sir_Turalyon
02-01-2007, 11:16
1) Do you see them as competitive?


Yes.


2) Is their codex like the old eldar codex (i.e only half of it is worth its points)?


More like 3/4 of it is worth it's points. Scourges and maybe grotesques need tweaking, hellions need decent weapons.



3) Do you like them (be it for fluff / models / whatever)?

Yes. The models are quite good when you remove the spikes and give them imaginative paint job... yes even Wyches :P.



And lastly....
4) Do you like / dislike facing them?

Never faced them. I like playing them, even through I'm not good with them yet.

Deadnight
02-01-2007, 11:49
Do you see them as competitive?

one of the best lists in the game, if played right. they're a scalpel. you can make surgical cuts, or make a bloody pulp of someone's face. they're unforgiving, which means you gotta play 'em hard, fast, and brutal, which is just how they operate.


Quote 2) Is their codex like the old eldar codex (i.e only half of it is worth its points)?
warriors, raiders, wyches, ravagers, lords are all you need to make a brutal army.

Quote 3) Do you like them (be it for fluff / models / whatever)?
Yes. im gonna use the DE codex as a base for a converted fallen eldar army- warriors/guardian conversions, warlocks as haemonculi etc. mix eldar bits and you can get 'em to look great.


Quote And lastly....
4) Do you like / dislike facing them? ]
not my planned army! 9 bright lances and 6 blasters versus 3 hammerheads! they get first turn, im screwed!

TzarNikolai
02-01-2007, 11:55
And this tactic is actually illegal. WWPs can't be used out of vehicles (or jetbikes). Only models on foot (you can give them to models in Raiders, but they need to disembark, and then not move for the next turn to place the portal).

not exactly:
you can give the portal to an archon or a squad leader and they can ride around on a raider. you can deploy the portal straight off the raider by placing it in base contact with the vehicle. however, as the portal can't be deployed on a turn the model moved then you've got to wait for your next turn after moving the raider to be able to deploy it.

on a side note; wouldn't it be really cheesy if the portal was deployed when the model carrying it died? well, at least it wouldn't be as bad as fear of the dark... :p

answers
1. DE are competitive. however i've found they've only ever got 2 settings: crap and horrifying. mostly depending on the player but also depending on the terrain and the opposing army etc.

2. yeah, exactly the same problem as old eldar. half the codex is rubbish, half is good. there are a few "meh" units in between like reavers, warp beasts that aren't terrible and i'm not sure there have quite the same "cheesy units of doom" like the wraithlords and seer councils of old. although when you start winning with DE be prepared for everyone to change their mind about DE, starting from them being crap to them being cheesy. (especially the 6+ save, riding around in a cardboard box, 14 points a pop wyches)

3. DE are the best army i've ever played, they lack good models, decent fluff but I really like their speed, hittiness and fragility, its exactly my play style.

4. other people play dark eldar too? :eek:
dunno. only ever seen 3 other people play DE. one in a tournament who was at the top table (i was on a low table with my beil-tan army), one who keeps getting thrashed and one who i lent my army too so he could see what it was like...

Souleater
02-01-2007, 11:58
on a side note; wouldn't it be really cheesy if the portal was deployed when the model carrying it died?

Always annoyed me that USF got that and the DE didn't.

Just another reason to hate Eldar, I guess.

Voodoo Boyz
02-01-2007, 12:56
1) Do you see them as competitive?

I play against them a lot, they can be either very competitive or pushovers versus what I like to call "Power Armored Power Builds"

2) Is their codex like the old eldar codex (i.e only half of it is worth its points)?

Yeah, there are only a few units that are worth taking for a power list.

3) Do you like them (be it for fluff / models / whatever)?

They're pretty decent, but considering I already play Kult of Speed, and if I played them competitively it'd be a WWP/Wytch Cult I don't need to duplicate play styles with them.

One thing I really have to say though about DE: The Models are not as bad as everyone online says they are! One of my best gaming buddies uses them and guess what he didn't put the spikes on them. They look good and he gave them a good pain job. His raiders look very nice and he gave them some great touches with some chains and fish hooks doing conversion work. His Incubi retinue look awesome and he's got Drazahar running around in there with a nice looking Archon. His talos and jetbikes look great and match his paint job on the raiders and it makes for a nice army. His Wytches are base painted so I haven't noticed any real detail on them but I'm guessing they'll look fine.

And lastly....

4) Do you like / dislike facing them?

They're fun to face against and I've done so many times as both Orks and Marines. I've even done it once as Necrons, but that didn't go so well for the DE, but then the Necrons screw over just about any assault army when played right...

On a side note, in your opinion - WWP or Raiders?

Um what? Both. Always. ;)

Captain Micha
02-01-2007, 14:22
I think the dark eldar are cool in idea... but I seriously hate on those minis never played against them. nor have I seen any minis assembled outside their boxes in real life.

Weregerbil
02-01-2007, 14:40
Warriors and ravanagers take lots of these, you need them to get the army to work.

Snotteef
02-01-2007, 14:47
Well, I've been playing Dark Eldar for a couple of years now. I would say they were MORE competitive in 3rd than they are now, but they are still a force to be reckoned with.

The problem with them, is that a hard stare will knock a Raider out of the sky, so they have to be completely hidden until they drop their cargo (whether that is deadly Incubi, Wyches or a lowly DE warrior squad). With the prevalence of indirect fire available in 4th edition codices, hiding behind terrain doesn't even seem to help (Vibro-cannons, Basilisks, Space-Marine Librarians, Whirlwinds, etc), especially since most are either blast weapons (double-hits vs. open-topped) or auto-glance, this can ruin a DE player's frickin' day. It seems to me that even non WWP armies should contain at least one WWP in case their opponent is indirect heavy or the mission causes most units to be in reserve.

As to the codex, I would say there is an abundance of unusable units. It badly needs an overhaul.

Models: I think they are fantastic. The Warrior models are what got me into the Dark Eldar. Most people who complain about them are unaware that most of the spikes and all of the silly hair are OPTIONAL pieces. It doesn't help that GW tends to paint their DE armies like they are a frickin' circus. Minimum spikes, no hair and a dark paint job a menacing Dark Eldar Warrior make (I always say:p ).
If I were going to complain about the line, it would be the Wyches. Terrible models; bulky, assymetrical armor, disproportianate heads, short legs... ugghh. Terrible. I use converted Dark Elf Witches.

intellectawe
02-01-2007, 17:15
I have just started DE after many years of playing power armoured (or necrodermis covered) races and would like to see how well received DE are in the warseer community.

1) Do you see them as competitive?

Yes. They are. THey are quite easy to use once you have their concept in your head. Its all about terrain.

2) Is their codex like the old eldar codex (i.e only half of it is worth its points)?

Yes. But the other half is more than worth their points, which makes up for the half that is worth crap

3) Do you like them (be it for fluff / models / whatever)?

Fluff, yes. Models, yes.

And lastly....

4) Do you like / dislike facing them?

I have been using them for 6 years, and only faced them twice, so I can't remember those game to tell you.

I am mostly curious to see if they are considered a power gamer's army (not matter how difficult they are to play) or are just a general forgotten shelf filler.

Yes, DE are not a power gamers army. Power gamer armies have units that are almost fail safe to use, but DE units, as powerful as they are, can simply be shot down.

On a side note, in your opinion - WWP or Raiders?

Whatever your preference is. I use both, raiders IN WWPs... There is no other way :)