PDA

View Full Version : Chaos Codex 2008



redbaron998
24-12-2006, 03:29
So According to Rumour Roundup we know " Chaos Book 1" Is coming out. This would imply more than one book ( YAY) I know its alot in advance but since the chaos players dont have much to talk about right now lets get a wish list / discussion.

no-use4a-name
24-12-2006, 03:44
I think that this may have been posted in the wrong area as it really isn't news.

Tebrey
24-12-2006, 03:52
Maybe not,

There have been rumours of the first codex coming THIS year. Cypher has to be in some codex. He is coming out this year and not in the DA codex.

Possibly right after?

sulla
24-12-2006, 04:19
Maybe not,

There have been rumours of the first codex coming THIS year. Cypher has to be in some codex. He is coming out this year and not in the DA codex.

Possibly right after?

Why does he have to be in any codex? WHFB has plenty of mercenary units that do not have rules in any current army book.

The Emperor
24-12-2006, 04:25
Except that hunting the Fallen is pretty big for the Dark Angels. So it'd be nice if there was at least one Fallen for Dark Angels players to hunt. Even if he is a slippery minx.

Grand Master Raziel
24-12-2006, 05:42
I think it would be pretty retarded for Chaos to get redone before Orks, Necrons, DE, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels, unless the premise behind the scheduling is to nerf the vast quantity of brokenness that the current Chaos dex sports.

BrainFireBob
24-12-2006, 05:46
Raziel:

That'd fit the codices they've done so far this year- it would also tie neatly into Imperial Armor V.

redbaron998
24-12-2006, 05:56
Due to the hints layed down by BrimStone if youve been keeping up with the DA rumours thread its pretty obvious Cypher will be in the Chaos Codex. As for the order Orks will obviously come first. Then will probably come SW ( guess) then prob chaos or crons

Dranthar
24-12-2006, 08:53
As for the order Orks will obviously come first. Then will probably come SW ( guess) then prob chaos or crons

Don't count on it. After Dark Angels the current concensus seems to be that Orks will be next. Rumours are abound that the Dark Eldar will be out at around late 2008 so assuming 2 codeci per year (which is about the pattern it's been), that leaves 1 or maybe 2 codeci in between Orks (mid/late 2007) and Dark Eldar (late 2008).

I don't think there's anything solid as to what those 1-2 codeci could be, but I'm personally willing to guess a Chaos codex and then maybe a marine codex (I think Blood Angels are rumoured to be the next marines after the Dark Angels) if they fit a second one in, that is. :rolleyes:

Necrons aren't even on the rumour radar yet, so they're probably a long, long way off.

Darkseer
24-12-2006, 09:07
*sighs a mighty sigh of despair*

Why oh why can't GW just bung all of chaos in 1 book? It would be SO much simpler.

uatu13
24-12-2006, 09:25
We don't need a new Chaos codex, with the exception of Tzeentch it is by far the most perfect codex out there. It's flexible, allows for lots of creativity with army lists and is competative against everything. Let's revamp the Dark Eldar or Orks already!

Sanath
24-12-2006, 09:32
We don't need a new Chaos codex, with the exception of Tzeentch it is by far the most perfect codex out there. It's flexible, allows for lots of creativity with army lists and is competative against everything. Let's revamp the Dark Eldar or Orks already!

Totally agree!!!:chrome: give us tzeentch fans a new way to start smashing our enemies the rest is ok by me:p

Kjell
24-12-2006, 09:45
Consider that it's my pet army... :p But yes, Orks and Dark Eldar ought to go first.

Personally I hope that some of the stranger limitations in the Cult Lists will be removed (no heavy weapons, in an army based on well-equipped infantry? :wtf: ), psychic powers will be spiced up just the teensiest bit, that minor psychic powers will be actually worth taking (increase the ranges, add a power for 1, remove Siren!), that more esoteric wargear will be added, that Horrors will not suck anymore, that daemonic cavalry and juggernauts will be included once more and that tzeentchian Chaos Marines will be improved.

We can expect a plastic Chaos Lord/Sorcerer, plastic Terminators and a plastic Dreadnought. What I hope for, though, is a Plastic Daemon prince (along with one for WHFB as well, so you can swap parts and such) and plastic Greater Daemons.

Mostly wishful thinking, but one can hope. :p

Darkseer
24-12-2006, 09:58
We don't need a new Chaos codex, with the exception of Tzeentch it is by far the most perfect codex out there. It's flexible, allows for lots of creativity with army lists and is competative against everything. Let's revamp the Dark Eldar or Orks already!


Quoted for truth!

onodera
24-12-2006, 10:24
The main problem with the current Chaos Codex is that it's poorly written: ambigious rules, puzzling algorithms (If I buy a bike for my Khorne bike champion, can he upgrade the bike's weapons? Can Cult Champion buy stuff from the armoury, the only limit being X points of weapons, or can he buy ONLY X points of weapons? And so on, and so on.). I wouldn't like it to be written in the format of Eldar Codex, where you have special rules and stats of a unit on two different pages.
The second problem is that some units rarely see the battlefield (though Dark Eldar suffer much more from this problem).
The Loyalists love their Termies, Chaos Termies are expensive and don't get any appealing weaponry (well, Death Guards love them). Well, any Chaos Chosen are hideously expensive.
Possessed are better, but still struugle with getting into combat. For their price, they'd better be summoned.
Plaguebearers and Horrors. Who are these guys?
Chaos Dreads have good fluff, good (albeit old) model, but without drop pods they get popped too readily to be effective.
One Kiloson can be effective and competetive, but this requires a very experienced player playing them. Chosen of Ahriman would make them easier for newbies to handle.
I guess GW tries to solve the first problem by splitting our Codex (right, "HQ: Chaos Lord, can be given a Mark of Chaos, see Book 2 for Marks, oops, gotta wait for it first, play Undivided until then.")
As for the second problem, well, DE and Orks suffer from it much harder, so they deserve a Codex more than we.

philbrad2
24-12-2006, 10:28
There is no 'news' or 'rumour' in this thread and comments are based on members own experiences/thought on the current codex and what might be in the new one.

Therefore as its more of a discussion I'm moving this to "40K Discussions"

Happy holidays
PhilB
:chrome:
+ WarSeer =I= +

Kriegsherr
24-12-2006, 12:11
*sighs a mighty sigh of despair*

Why oh why can't GW just bung all of chaos in 1 book? It would be SO much simpler.

Maybe because they finally want to give non-marine chaos players something to play with? instead of a half-baked, "illegal" list that got no minis done for it ever?
Maybe because they finally will do chaos guard, mutant hordes and demon hordes to go along the chaos marines?

And no, the chaos codex is far from beeing "perfect". Just because its still the codex with the highest powerlevel doesn't means that GW shouldn't do anything against all the loopholes.

Cirenivel
24-12-2006, 12:48
but there is still no reason to put it in 4-6 different books!
they can still have everything in one book

Cirenivel

WhatsHisName
24-12-2006, 12:54
erm apparently from what i have herd from various people on furums and in stores is that it goes
1 dark angels
2 chaos book 1
3 orks

martin

wildkarrde0
24-12-2006, 12:55
I would think they will do 5 books like the marines 1 chaos list undivided then one of each of the god armies

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
24-12-2006, 12:59
We don't need a new Chaos codex, with the exception of Tzeentch it is by far the most perfect codex out there. It's flexible, allows for lots of creativity with army lists and is competative against everything. Let's revamp the Dark Eldar or Orks already!

the problem is with power armoured chosen - they should be worth playing and with iron wariors and looted basilisk&4HS

Chaos lord entry should be better and infilt. and speed should be forbidden - in every other aspect you are right

/please dont follow eldar codex layout it just sux a**

and give as drop pods/reasonable priced

Feor
24-12-2006, 15:04
The Gos armies aren't that special, if they were doing multiple lists I think (as stated above) the smarter idea would be to do one for Traitor marines, and then one for LatD/Mutants/Daemons. Not unlike how Fantasy has Hordes of Chaos and Beasts of Chaos.

Henshini
24-12-2006, 18:04
I think it would be pretty retarded for Chaos to get redone before Orks, Necrons, DE, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels, unless the premise behind the scheduling is to nerf the vast quantity of brokenness that the current Chaos dex sports.

GW has never done anything retarded, like release a new Tau codex before even Eldar had been redone...

The only reason I would want a new codex is to have it redone in the "new format" the same a s WFB and the new Eldar codex. And to respond to another poster in this thread, Chaos termies are great, at 24", they are about equal to imperials, 2 shots vs one re-rollable, then at 12", chaos takes the lead. In HtH, power weapons strike before powerfists, or lightning claws with the re-roll to wound? Granted, they cost more, but they are superior too. Possessed? Marines with rending claws. That's all I have to say on that.

The main reasons I have seen people saying current chaos units are bad is because of marine introduced metagames... the drop pod army, etc...

stompzilla
24-12-2006, 18:50
I'd like to see a CSM codex and then a LaTD codex, rather than god specific books.

eldaran
24-12-2006, 18:50
Maybe because they finally want to give non-marine chaos players something to play with? instead of a half-baked, "illegal" list that got no minis done for it ever?
Maybe because they finally will do chaos guard, mutant hordes and demon hordes to go along the chaos marines?

And no, the chaos codex is far from beeing "perfect". Just because its still the codex with the highest powerlevel doesn't means that GW shouldn't do anything against all the loopholes.

Technically, if you use the right doctrines, there is a list for Chaos guard in the IG codex (just no Comissars)

stompzilla
24-12-2006, 18:55
Or just normal guard converted nicely. LaTD aren't chaos guard though. Chaos guard would represent something like the bloodpact but the more esoteric stuff i.e. plague zombies, rogue psykers etc would make for a great codex.

eldaran
24-12-2006, 18:59
I only meant Chaos Guard, not LATD, but there is at least one nice Chaos Guard army out there, using the doctrines system.

Helicon_One
24-12-2006, 19:57
but there is still no reason to put it in 4-6 different books!
they can still have everything in one book
You could say the same thing about the Imperium: "Ohh, we don't need seperate books for all the Space Marine Chapters, Imperial Guard, Daemon Hunters, Witch Hunters, AdMech, Ordo Xenos... why not just put them all in one codex?"

The fact is that Chaos can no more be done justice in a single army list than the Imperium can. At the very least there should be a standalone Codex: Lost and the Damned and a standalone Codex: Chaos Space Marines to diversify the two. More than two would be nice, but GW probably don't want to make so much work for themselves.

Tim

toxic_wisdom
24-12-2006, 21:47
I don't get it - why does there seem to be a majority desire to see KSons altered as if there is something currently wrong with them. The Thousand Sons are my third army, and I've been playing them for over a year now against various armies. I have yet to notice any complications or weak spots in their codex options.

So what seems to be the problem other Tzeentch players are experiencing?

Light of the Emperor
24-12-2006, 21:57
The thinking is that Chaos gets a generic codex (undivided) and then 4 sub-codicies that cover Khorne/World Eaters, Slaneesh/Emperor's Children, Nurgle/Death Guard and Tzeentch/Thousand Songs. This would be just like the space marine codex and its offshoots.

While I really think DE should come before Chaos (they deserve it far more), I'd at least like to see a Chaos codex...not Chaos marines, who make up a fraction of chaos forces. Oh and perhaps some changes to the iron warriors...please?

Gensuke626
24-12-2006, 22:09
GW has never done anything retarded, like release a new Tau codex before even Eldar had been redone...


To be fair, the Eldar needed Alot of work, and when the time came up to decide what to sell that year, the Eldar probably weren't ready so GW said "Well, we want to keep doing 2 codecies a year...and only Tau Empire is ready for the printers..." If anything I'll bet that they were finishing up the Eldar playtesting just as Tau Empire got back from the printers...

Part of the reason the Orks are taking so long. Lots of things to fix and tweak.

Light of the Emperor
24-12-2006, 22:20
That's some good logic...
Based on that, the Dark Eldar better be sparkling...in a dark, evil way of course.

The Wraithlord
24-12-2006, 22:28
I don't get it - why does there seem to be a majority desire to see KSons altered as if there is something currently wrong with them. The Thousand Sons are my third army, and I've been playing them for over a year now against various armies. I have yet to notice any complications or weak spots in their codex options.

So what seems to be the problem other Tzeentch players are experiencing?

Are you kidding???

You are either godly good with the Sons or your usual opponents suck large. Ksons are so broken it isn't funny. We have a few Sons players around here and not one of us thinks they are viable anymore. And our opponents range from newbies and people who couldn't roll dice without help to GT winners so the Sons have played against (and been used by) all kinds of skill levels here. Extreme lack of high strength weaponry, extremely slow movement, extremely high cost especially when compared to other cults, etc. And what do we get in return for a ridiculous amount of negatives? Free sorcerer ability, being able to move and shoot full range, and 2 wounds on Rubrics.

So lets break that down

Free sorc: yippie. I get a free ability that is only good if I spend even MORE points on psychic powers that for the most part suck a$$. They don't compare with anything else like the SM or Eldar powers which are far superior. Hell, even the adversary powers in the Witch Hunter codex are better. So this 'freebie' doesn't really help.

Move and shoot: this one is good at first glance until you realize that the only weapons they can do this with are bolters. Wow. That is so underwhelming that it makes me sick to my pants. And for that, I have to roll Difficult Terrain no matter what? That's useful :rolleyes:

2 wound models: While that might sound good at first glanced, 2 wounds is easily dealt with by Str8+ weapons. Hell, one good shot with a Basilisk will wipe out half a Rubric unit all at once. And considering the cost of the Ksons, that is a lot of points gone just like that. Likewise, any monstrous creatures such as carnifex's or anything with Str8+. They will ignore saves AND the dual wounds and basically mow through the uber expensive Ksons at a frightening rate.

There are other things as well but these ones really sum it up for me. Yes, the Sons do have advantages as well, (2 wounds is nice don't get me wrong) but their disadvantages so seriously outwiegh them that it is ridiculous. They went from being a very good army to completely blowing when the current codex came out.


Back on topic:

I would be keen to see a Chaos codex for Traitor Guard/Hordes/etc for non Marine armies as well. LatD is nice but at the same time it doesn't quite hit that spot that most of us would like to see for these types of lists. As for the Marine legions, I would like to see the cults and the undivided list all be as good as each other. I should really have to struggle with which one to go with and then have it come down to what models I like the best. Ksons should be as good as IW who should be as good as Black Legion, who should be..... you get the idea. The only way I can see that happening is if there is either a Marine only dex or separate ones for each and I would much rather have them all in one if possible.

eldaran
24-12-2006, 22:39
I don't get it - why does there seem to be a majority desire to see KSons altered as if there is something currently wrong with them. The Thousand Sons are my third army, and I've been playing them for over a year now against various armies. I have yet to notice any complications or weak spots in their codex options.

So what seems to be the problem other Tzeentch players are experiencing?

I think that the main problem is that they are slow, but i still think that Chosen Terminators with the rubric sign are still one of the funniest units in the chaos list.

redbaron998
24-12-2006, 22:43
I honestly...though arent completely happy with cause i mean hey chaos is tight...think they will get more than 2 books..3 tops. will probably look like

Book 1: Undivided Marines
Book 2: The 4 chaos gods books
Book 3: Chaos Guard

Serapia
24-12-2006, 23:11
Are you kidding???

You are either godly good with the Sons or your usual opponents suck large. Ksons are so broken it isn't funny. We have a few Sons players around here and not one of us thinks they are viable anymore. And our opponents range from newbies and people who couldn't roll dice without help to GT winners so the Sons have played against (and been used by) all kinds of skill levels here. Extreme lack of high strength weaponry, extremely slow movement, extremely high cost especially when compared to other cults, etc. And what do we get in return for a ridiculous amount of negatives? Free sorcerer ability, being able to move and shoot full range, and 2 wounds on Rubrics.

So lets break that down

Free sorc: yippie. I get a free ability that is only good if I spend even MORE points on psychic powers that for the most part suck a$$. They don't compare with anything else like the SM or Eldar powers which are far superior. Hell, even the adversary powers in the Witch Hunter codex are better. So this 'freebie' doesn't really help.

Move and shoot: this one is good at first glance until you realize that the only weapons they can do this with are bolters. Wow. That is so underwhelming that it makes me sick to my pants. And for that, I have to roll Difficult Terrain no matter what? That's useful :rolleyes:

2 wound models: While that might sound good at first glanced, 2 wounds is easily dealt with by Str8+ weapons. Hell, one good shot with a Basilisk will wipe out half a Rubric unit all at once. And considering the cost of the Ksons, that is a lot of points gone just like that. Likewise, any monstrous creatures such as carnifex's or anything with Str8+. They will ignore saves AND the dual wounds and basically mow through the uber expensive Ksons at a frightening rate.

There are other things as well but these ones really sum it up for me. Yes, the Sons do have advantages as well, (2 wounds is nice don't get me wrong) but their disadvantages so seriously outwiegh them that it is ridiculous. They went from being a very good army to completely blowing when the current codex came out.

Dude. I'll agree with the sorc power not be so great compared to other armies, however I wouldn't complain about the Rubric units. You don't get any heavy weapons with Khorne or Nurgle, you have to depend on Tanks or Dreds just like Tzeench and you still only get 1 wound. In the Nurgle named army your limited with transport vehicles and khorne, if you go nuts, you jump out and do a chinese fire drill in the middle of battle.

toxic_wisdom
25-12-2006, 01:02
Are you kidding???

You are either godly good with the Sons or your usual opponents suck large. Ksons are so broken it isn't funny.

I wouldn't consider my gameplay godly, but at the sametime my opponents are certainly far from inferior.

I've viewed TS lists here and at the (extinct) GW forum, and could easily see a difference in unit selection and tactics. The most comon of these is the Rhino - I like to keep my KSons mech mobile.

By adding transports to my units, the Victory Scale began to tip slightly in my favor. And by using Bolt of Change via firing point the Rhino became a support vehicle for anti-tank, thus tipping the scale even more.

Don't under estimate a TS Rhino with BoC. Granted you won't be favored against the bigger tanks (AV13+) , leave them for the Predators. But with S8 at roughly 36" (12" movement + 24" range ) you'll be able to hunt hidden tanks ( ie Basilisk ) with more ease than the Predator.

Mixing in a Winged Daemon Prince plus Triple Las Preds with Havoc Launchers, and the scale has predominantly remained on the win side.

Da Reddaneks
25-12-2006, 01:13
I think it would be pretty retarded for Chaos to get redone before Orks

Let's revamp the Dark Eldar or Orks already!

But yes, Orks and Dark Eldar ought to go first.
i could not agree more. Only one thing seriously concerns me about chaos coming before orks ... sales figures. if GW is having slumping sales they very well may do redo chaos before orks simply to give a short term sales boost. While its sad i could certaintly see the wisdom from a business stand point of such a decision.

Carcass
25-12-2006, 01:34
Hm... new codex...
1st, clarifications. What goes with what and what's dont ( speaking of mixing wargear with deamonic gifts and veteran skills ).
2nd, give a reason for some units to exist.
possessed - give them more options. Too expensive and you always find other units who are cheaper and do the job.
horrors and flamers - the first are maybe one of the worst units in the game. The second are really expensive for what they can do.
chosen - give a good reason why to pay 17 points for a marine who hasnt got any advantage against morale tests.
minor psychic powers - give a table for chaos undivided. Dont write in the codex to look in the white dwarf. Fix the minor powers for some deities, they really suck ( especially Tzeentch's , who is supposed to be the god of magic ).
Fix some items - the Kai gun for 2 shots and a ld test for losing one wound doesnt worth its 25 points.

as of the new models, i would like to see plastic terminators, plastic dreadnought , chaos lords with lots of sprues, models for the chosen, banner sprues .

But yes, the truth is that the orks and dark eldar codicis should go first.

zendral
25-12-2006, 04:52
Thousand sons are great. We have the best troop unit in the game in my opinion. The only thing I have a beef with is the fluff. I think we should have psy powers that are a bit better than space marines, and geared toward deciet and guile like the fluff says. WTH is with twisted path? Good intentions....bad idea. The fluff also states that we hate close combat.....why are my sons still kicken strong after a charge from khorne berzerkers and/or genestealers? Great army....just needs a few tweeks, and a better focus on psy powers. I see things like "grand illusion" from the deciever and think, "Wow...that sounds like an amazing ability that the thousand sons should do." Don't get me wrong...what I desire WOULD end up beefing the sons....but of course I also expect some drawbacks.

In short, I would giggle like a little girl if the new dex fit the fluff better and the rules were solid enough to not have as many loopholes/errors and whatever else.

That and I would like to see posessed and chosen (for tzeentch) rebuilt to be viable options.

The Wraithlord
25-12-2006, 05:12
Heh, most of my beefs with the Sons wouldn't be near as large imho if they had one of two things happen:

1) access to heavy weapons be it in squads or havocs, etc (or at the very least special weapons. Think about it, they can remember how to pull the trigger of a bolter, why can't they do this with any other weapon??). Just to give them a bit more punch.

2) Cheaper. And this is my ultimate gripe with the current 1Ksons list. Too expensive. If the mark was the same cost for the Rubrics as other cult marks are, I think that most of the rest would be bearable as you could actually use the points to plug the holes in the list a bit.

However, I won't go into the Sons anymore in this thread as I don't want to hijack it entirely and the discussion of a possible chaos codex upcoming is far more mouth watering :)

Carcass: Yeah, the psychic powers and the Possessed/Chosen really do need some work. Never see them on the table all that much.

zendral
25-12-2006, 08:53
Heh, most of my beefs with the Sons wouldn't be near as large imho if they had one of two things happen:

1) access to heavy weapons be it in squads or havocs, etc (or at the very least special weapons. Think about it, they can remember how to pull the trigger of a bolter, why can't they do this with any other weapon??). Just to give them a bit more punch.



Not only that...but they tease us with a picture of a thousand son holding a plasma gun right in the codex.

Edit: you can also see a black templar dread with 2 close combat weapons in the black templar codex...yet it is not an option.

HalfEvil333
25-12-2006, 09:17
Not only that...but they tease us with a picture of a thousand son holding a plasma gun right in the codex.

Its the same thing as with the Death Guard. There he is, looking all bad-ass with that heavy bolter, about to lay down some serious fire...and then you find out they can't take any heavy weapons...:cries:

The Wraithlord
25-12-2006, 19:36
Lol, so true. Let's see, we are the Death Gaurd, we are uber tough and yet we can't handle the shaking the heavy bolter gives us. Oh, and trying to fire a lascannon knocks us on our ass. But we can take more damage than anyone!!!1!1

Hehe.

Kjell
25-12-2006, 22:05
The Rubric Marines are supposed to be no more than automata, capable of less thought than the average Necron or Tyranid, but limiting them to only boltguns is a bit much. The same goes for the Death Guard. Their Legion ideal is that the infantryman should be as well-trained, well-equipped and autonomous as is practical. That they then have to literally rely on vehicles for fire support is more than a little ironic.

Other than that... If you just make Horrors not suck, tweak psychic powers a little and maybe overhaul the rule mechanic that shows the Rubric Marines' unnatural resilience to damage... I'm sure they'd be better. You can play quite competetively with both Thousand Sons and Plague marines but the lists are needlessly limited.


Speaking of minor psychic powers and indeed psychic powers in general, here's what I think ought to be done:

Minor ones:

1) Remove the duds. Seriously. I believe that, if you are to gamble about not only the result but the effect as well, there should never be a "Woopsie, you just wasted points!" outcome. The patron ignoring the psyker's prayers are better represented by a failed psychic test when using the powers!

2) Increase ranges. I know they're meant to be minor, but giving them decent range would make Sorcerers far more worthwhile.

3) Get rid of the useless ones! :p That some powers are somewhat situational is fine. They're just ten points, after all. But the sheer degrees of useless that can be found is astounding.



Powers that are pretty much fine:
Fuelled by Pain, Touch of Slaanesh, She Who Thirsts, Reckoning of Tzeentch, Withering Gaze

Powers that could do with increased range:
Nurgle's Dance, Nausea, Miasma of Pestilence, Beam of Slaanesh: all to 24"

Powers that are questionable:
Affliction, Aura of Decay, Weaver of Fates

Powers that just plain suck:
No usable power (;)), Pink Fire of Tzeentch

Powers that are broken:
Siren (unless they fixed that in one of the later prints)


None of them should be a must-have, of course, but you should always feel that you get something interesting if you purchase a couple for your Sorcerer. The top category are perfectly acceptable, it's just that they're not worth the gamble of getting a sucky power. Let's not get started on the sheer amount of fail that Pink Fire of Tzeentch is. :rolleyes: If it was a flamer it'd be nice but ending up paying twice the points for bloody Daemonic Fire is shameful.


In addition to the current major powers available to all Marks I'd like to see two more power-specific abilities. Surely there is something each the three psyker Gods can grant their followers to set tham apart? Conjuring plague zombies, warp-walking, sensory overload... Anything that adds more flavour! A power that allows the Sorcerer to summon a unit of Daemons that hasn't entered play yet would be interesting as well, or possibly one that replenishes their ranks.


So, yeah, there's a lot that can be done about the psychic powers. Overall I want the minor ones to be worth spending ten points per random result and maybe even some additional characterful major powers. Nothing that's at all required but only things that are worth the effort to field. I'm just somewhat passionate about psychic powers. ;)

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
25-12-2006, 22:19
or more simple solution - no such lesser/minor psychic power at all - i'll be happy :)

Kjell
25-12-2006, 22:23
or more simple solution - no such lesser/minor psychic power at all - i'll be happy :)

But that's dull. Though, either you make them worthwhile or don't bother including them in the first place... Still, if you make minor powers viable there will be more variation in HQ selection, instead of just "choppy Lord", "choppier Lord", "even choppier Daemon Prince" and "choppiest Greater Daemon". :p

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
25-12-2006, 22:46
Better make more major powers and not bother with minor ones !!!!!!

is it hard to understand ???]


PPower must be cheaper to be worthwile :)



my idea about chaos space marines codex: check out HQ entry
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57915

stompzilla
25-12-2006, 22:53
24" is a bit much. Most eldar ones have a range of 6 to 18". Only doom has a range of 24" is 25 pts and isn't an offensive power (I.e. it needs at least another squad to make it work).

Grand Master Raziel
25-12-2006, 22:54
Well, I think we have a broad consensus that there should be a codex for Chaos Guard/Mutant Hordes/assorted gribblies. Other than that, it's hard to say. 5 dexes for Chaos is a little hard for me to swallow, especially if one can mix-and-match from them as freely as with the current single 'dex. It would be as if you could take the tastiest options from Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels in one FOC. Seperate dexes for Undivided and the 4 cult lists would be easier to take if they are restricted to the options in each of their respective 'dexes.

As far as some of the things that have been bandied about as to what should go in the new dex:

Minor psychic powers: take'em out entirely. About the only one that gets used with much frequency is Siren, and Siren is absurdly broken. The idea for minor powers first cropped up in a White Dwarf/Chapter Approved article about making psykers more interesting (remember how dull Librarians were in third ed?), and the need for that has pretty much passed. Librarians and Farseers are about as sexy as they need to be, and quite frankly I don't think Chaos players have much to complain about either.

Tzeench armies: Seems to me that in addition to the Rubric of Ahriman, there ought to be a Mark of Tzeench that's in line with the other Chaos Marks. After all, the Rubric was only worked on the original 1K Sons legion. There should also be rules for Tzeench cultists who were/are not part of the 1K Sons legion.

Also, here's an idea: maybe the Cult armies shouldn't be Fearless, and maybe Chaos shouldn't have such high Leadership. After all, the consequence of dying in service to the Chaos gods is to have one's soul eaten by them. It would seem to me that such a state of affairs would not result in suicidal devotion to serving them. I can see Rubric units being Fearless, but the rest of the servants of Chaos ought to be more inclined (or at least not less so) than their Imperial counterparts toward legging it when things look bad. Or, maybe their base Leadership can stay the same, but have them suck harsher penalties for having units under 50% or being outnumbered. That would represent them being disciplined and motivated as long as it looks like things are going well for them, but show a willingness to choose the better part of valor when things look bad.

Kjell
25-12-2006, 23:26
Better make more major powers and not bother with minor ones !!!!!!

is it hard to understand ???]


PPower must be cheaper to be worthwile :)



my idea about chaos space marines codex: check out HQ entry
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57915

You can only have one major power per psyker, though. Two if you also buy a Familiar. Furthermore, a psyker can only use one major power per turn. Minor powers are unrestricted in number and limited to phase. Your psyker can accomplish more things at the expense of sheer power. Plus, major powers can be added alongside improvements to minor ones.

However, one possibility is to convert all the minor powers into major powers. Just boost their overall potential for mayhem and job's a good one.


24" is a bit much. Most eldar ones have a range of 6 to 18". Only doom has a range of 24" is 25 pts and isn't an offensive power (I.e. it needs at least another squad to make it work).

I really just pulled a number out of thin air. It's not like I've outright playtested it. 18" is perfectly reasonable, too. Doom, though, is not a random pick and I would like to think that it's rather a lot more powerful than making a unit count as having moved for the purposes of firing weapons, removing their cover save (that can be pretty major, though) or lowering their BS by one.

Misanthrope
26-12-2006, 00:24
Here's some bits of stuff I don't like about CSM (and I'm a CSM player):

First off I think Mark of Chaos Undivided should be automatic for all units (with the exception of Cult Legions who get their own Mark). It seems silly to me that these ancient 10,000 year old warriors who have lived in the most horrifying place in existence can still **** themselves and run home to momma at the drop of a pin, unless they pay for a Mark that severely limits their ability to take Veteran Skills. MoCU shouldn't limit number of Vet Skills; CSM fluff is full of indications of the superiority of the average CSM to a Loyalist Marine and yet there really is no difference.

Chosen should be fearless. I mean, c'mon, it's rediculous enough that regular CSM don't get some sort of Ld boost, but Chosen? Oh no, they get +1 Ld over the average Marine! Come on, these guys are supposed to be THE nastiest Marines in the service of Chaos, and all they are is 3 points more expensive with a tiny 10% Ld boost over the average CSM. They're utterly useless, except for Termination, but then they're just incredibly expensive. I like the idea that they can all be upgraded to Champions but the price just isn't worth it. For an extra attack and access to the Armoury they cost twice as much as the average CSM, not including weapons/wargear/gifts/etc. Just not worth it.

The only thing Possessed are good for is Talons, otherwise they're just a price hog. Flight? Hah! You're paying almost 10 points more than you would for a Raptor, and the Raptors can take assault weapons.

Havocs operate just like Devestators -- TOO much like Devestators. Where's the variety? Then you have the Predator -- which looks exactly like a Loyalist predator, except it has spikes and gargoyle heads. I'd expect a 10,000 year old tank to look.. more different? Also, exact same options, which sucks. Loyalists have far, far more tank options in terms of armament and selection. Sure, we get the Defiler, but.. well, it's ugly. And although it's cheap for what it does, it's woefully underpowered and from what I've heard is taken out very easily. I would expect a gigantic 50-foot tall monstrocity straight out of the eye of terror to be a little more well protected than a Dreadnought which is like 1/4 the size...

Psychic powers... well I've never used them but from what I've seen of them they don't seem to have all that much variety. I'd expect more from Psykers who have the backing of the Chaos gods.

Lastly, Dreadnoughts. It was already mentioned that the lack of Drop-Podding really hurts them. What also hurts is the price tag and the incredibly out-dated models. Don't get me wrong, I think the Chaos Dread still looks really good and really different, but the fact that its metal, and ontop of that, half the weapon options aren't included with the model, really kinda sucks. The Blood Angels got the right-handed DCCW, why can't we? Hopefully they'll release it with the plastic Dread but the way things have been going I fear that the plastic Chaos Dread will simply be a Loyalist dread with some spikes and rims. So until they do come out with plastic, and more armaments, we'll have to fork out a load of money for FW.. :S

Overall I think what Chaos lacks is continuity with its fluff... Fluff-wise, the Traitor Legions are made to be these incredibly ruthless and efficient killers, whose battle prowess has been cultivated over 10,000 years of constant, non-stop fighting, who have lived in the most horrifying realms of existence which would make normal men's brains instantly liquify... and yet they really aren't all that great. Even the supposed "Chosen", who are supposed to be the uberest of all fighters in the galaxy, are absolutely nothing unless you fork out a ton of points. HQ is really the onle place CSM shines (which might be evident by the lack of anyone complaining about them...) as with HQ you can absolutely make an incredibly effective monstrocity of a unit that, although it can cost an ****-load of points, is usually quite capable of making all those points back because of the sheer usefullness of a lot of its options.

Anyway that's just my two cents... I'm not a vet of WH40K in any sense of the word but those are some of the problems I feel Chaos has atm...

Also as for LatD... I think its main problem is the lack of fluff. I really like the LatD list (although it could be improved a bit) and I'd like to see a LatD/Chaos Guard/Mutant Hordes/Etc Codex in the future. I think, for a faction whose power is by far one of the most deadly in the galaxy (fluff-wise), a single codex just doesn't do them justice.

Helicon_One
26-12-2006, 00:38
I think Mark of Chaos Undivided should be automatic for all units (with the exception of Cult Legions who get their own Mark). It seems silly to me that these ancient 10,000 year old warriors who have lived in the most horrifying place in existence can still **** themselves and run home to momma at the drop of a pin, unless they pay for a Mark that severely limits their ability to take Veteran Skills.
Not every CSM is a 10-millennia vet though - the Chaos Codex also covers more recent defectors like the Red Corsairs, who've lost their faith without the massive history of experience or devotion to compensate. That's possibly enough justification for splitting the current CSM Codex again to get 'vanilla' CSMs and Heresy-vintage uber-Vets.... actually, that could work very nicely indeed, the standard CSMs being better equipped and the First Founding Traitors being skilled/favoured to the max.

Tim

Minos Engele
26-12-2006, 01:09
One of the things I'd like to be changed, (and hasn't already been mentioned in this thread) is the change in Unidvided Legions.

Black Legion is fine. Someone has to be the Vanilla army.

Iron Warriors. Switch around the Oblitz and Dreadnoughts in the FOC and remove the option for a fourth HS and they're fine.

Alpha Legion. They are the most sneaky and strategic of all of the Legions and the only thing they have is cheap infiltrate (something almost all of the Legions can) and cultists. (something all Legions should have)
In my opinion they should have something like the old Alaitoc Disruption Table. Only not as exploitable. Powerfull and fluffy enough, but not too powerfull.

Word Bearers. Now, the only thing that sets them apart from the rest is the Accursed Crozius, Demagogue and more troop choices. While they are fluffy, they are (except for the Crozius) hardly worth it over the other Legions. Demagogue is almost useless with the already high LD of the CSM troops, or Dirge Casters. It could be nice, but only at a price reduction.
About the extra troops. Not needed. 6 slots is usually enough, only the most diehard WB army would use this option, though it isn't even that fluffy.
I'd suggest WB could get the same summoning advantages the god specific Legions have.

Night Lords. They are known for their fear tactics and suddenly they get extra FA. :confused: The other advantages are quite good and fluffy, the FA advantage could be replaced with something that moddifies LD though i'm not sure what.

Kromando33
26-12-2006, 01:22
I play chaos, and I think that their are codex's far more in need of an update than chaos is.

stompzilla
26-12-2006, 01:24
So, what's that ever had anything to do with it? If anything i would have though the chaos players are fearing the nerf stick, so that doesn't surprise me overly.

HalfEvil333
26-12-2006, 01:29
Night Lords. They are known for their fear tactics and suddenly they get extra FA. :confused: The other advantages are quite good and fluffy, the FA advantage could be replaced with something that moddifies LD though i'm not sure what.

Allowing them to take Daemonic Visage on their models for a cost? For 3 or 5 pts. the entire squad could take Daemonic Visage as a Vet skill?

Although I do like the extra FA slot (more bike and raptors :D ), I have to agree, that doesn't really reflect their fear aspect.

Grand Master Raziel
26-12-2006, 01:55
Here's some bits of stuff I don't like about CSM (and I'm a CSM player):

First off I think Mark of Chaos Undivided should be automatic for all units (with the exception of Cult Legions who get their own Mark). It seems silly to me that these ancient 10,000 year old warriors who have lived in the most horrifying place in existence can still **** themselves and run home to momma at the drop of a pin, unless they pay for a Mark that severely limits their ability to take Veteran Skills. MoCU shouldn't limit number of Vet Skills; CSM fluff is full of indications of the superiority of the average CSM to a Loyalist Marine and yet there really is no difference.


That's assuming that the bulk of the Chaos Marine forces really are the original members of the Legions that turned traitor 10,000 years ago. Anyone who gives that premise more than a minute's thought ought to be able to see how absurd it is. After 10,000 years of incessant warfare, there would be very few remaining members of the original Chaos legions. Those that haven't become Champions, Lieutenants, Sorcerors, or interred in Dreadnoughts have probably all been killed. Even if each legion took only one KIA a month, after that long you're talking about 120% casualties. Most of the "current" Chaos Marines have to have been recruited after the Horus Heresy. Any other explanation beggers belief.



Chosen should be fearless. I mean, c'mon, it's rediculous enough that regular CSM don't get some sort of Ld boost, but Chosen? Oh no, they get +1 Ld over the average Marine! Come on, these guys are supposed to be THE nastiest Marines in the service of Chaos, and all they are is 3 points more expensive with a tiny 10% Ld boost over the average CSM. They're utterly useless, except for Termination, but then they're just incredibly expensive. I like the idea that they can all be upgraded to Champions but the price just isn't worth it. For an extra attack and access to the Armoury they cost twice as much as the average CSM, not including weapons/wargear/gifts/etc. Just not worth it.

I'm not buying that idea. Chosen have an amazing amount of customizability. You can turn them into a kickass assault unit, or if you prefer they can make a pretty fair approximation of a Havoc squad, but in an Elite slot instead of a Heavy Support slot. They might be a tad overpriced for that Ld10, but not much, and only because Chaos Leadership is already higher than average.




The only thing Possessed are good for is Talons, otherwise they're just a price hog. Flight? Hah! You're paying almost 10 points more than you would for a Raptor, and the Raptors can take assault weapons.

But on the other hand, they're all S5 and have a 5+ Invulnerable save. Give'em Daemonic Flight, and they make a pretty fair Fast Attack choice, but one that takes up an Elite slot instead of a FA slot.



Havocs operate just like Devestators -- TOO much like Devestators. Where's the variety? Then you have the Predator -- which looks exactly like a Loyalist predator, except it has spikes and gargoyle heads. I'd expect a 10,000 year old tank to look.. more different? Also, exact same options, which sucks. Loyalists have far, far more tank options in terms of armament and selection. Sure, we get the Defiler, but.. well, it's ugly. And although it's cheap for what it does, it's woefully underpowered and from what I've heard is taken out very easily. I would expect a gigantic 50-foot tall monstrocity straight out of the eye of terror to be a little more well protected than a Dreadnought which is like 1/4 the size...

Havocs operate just like Devestators, but with free access to Veteran Skills. They can have Tank Hunting Autocannons, which is pretty amazing all by itself. Also, they can all take assault weapons instead of heavy weapons, making them far more mobile than Devs.

You're right about Predators. Loyalist Preds should have different options from Chaos Preds. Specifically, Chaos Preds shouldn't have access to the turret-mounted twin-linked lascannon, as that was developed 5000 years after the Horus Heresy (stated in Imperial Armor II). Loyalist SMs may have more vehicle entries, but a lot of the extra ones are not as useful as what's in the Chaos Codex. Whirlwinds and Vindicators together are not as useful as Defilers are, Razorbacks are stupid, and the Predator has two entries for the same vehicle with different turrets, whereas the Chaos Pred just has one entry that includes both. Chaos also has a far better list of vehicle upgrades. You can increase the AV of your vehicles, give them upgrades that let them regrow damaged parts, and have them ignore Shaken and Stunned results for 10 points less than Power of the Machine Spirit, which only allows limited control of a Shaken/Stunned vehicle and only allows firing at BS2.

As far as Defilers go, the AV is a tad low for something so big, but on the other hand you can increase that with the Mutated Hull upgrade, and it comes with the Daemonic Possession upgrade as part of its base price, so it ignores all Shaken and Stunned results, which is a major consideration. On top of that, it mounts a battle cannon that can be given Indirect Fire, so you don't have to expose it to hostile fire, and if someone does get close to it, not only does it mount a Reaper Autocannon, but it fights in close combat like a dreadnought, but also gets an extra D6 for penentrating armor like a monstrous creature. The relatively low AV is about the only thing that makes it even vaguely balanced.


Psychic powers... well I've never used them but from what I've seen of them they don't seem to have all that much variety. I'd expect more from Psykers who have the backing of the Chaos gods.

Maybe Chaos could use more psy-powers, but the ones it's got don't exactly stink. There's the flame template that wounds automatically on 4+ and ignores all armor saves, and the power that lets the sorceror turn specific models into Chaos Spawn that work for him. I'm not feeling the lack of potency there.


Lastly, Dreadnoughts. It was already mentioned that the lack of Drop-Podding really hurts them. What also hurts is the price tag and the incredibly out-dated models. Don't get me wrong, I think the Chaos Dread still looks really good and really different, but the fact that its metal, and ontop of that, half the weapon options aren't included with the model, really kinda sucks. The Blood Angels got the right-handed DCCW, why can't we? Hopefully they'll release it with the plastic Dread but the way things have been going I fear that the plastic Chaos Dread will simply be a Loyalist dread with some spikes and rims. So until they do come out with plastic, and more armaments, we'll have to fork out a load of money for FW.. :S

Or convert. At least Chaos still has those options. Loyalist SM dreads lost all the weapon options that didn't come in the Dreadnought box set.


Overall I think what Chaos lacks is continuity with its fluff...

To a certain extent, all armies are in that position. You should also keep in mind that each army's codex portrays that army as the most badass, hardcore, superslick guys in the cosmos. They can't all be right. Also, balance must be served. If you put 10 Chaos models on the table and regularly mop the floor with 30 loyalist SMs or 50 Imperial Guardsmen because the rules make Chaos that bad-ass, then people aren't going to want to play those armies. Chaos is already the most powerful codex in the game system. If anything is likely to happen to its overall power level, it's likely to be toned down, not made even more hoss.

zendral
26-12-2006, 08:04
I always thought that ever since the newest versions of eldar and space marines, they were doing to do away with minor powers. Since they did not continue them with space marines at least. I would love that, random powers sounds interesting....but I don't jump the gun to use them.

I would like to see a fat list of psychic powers in the next dex. A decent sized list akin to the space marines (in size not what they do) for undivided...and then 3-4 for nurgle, tzeentch, and slaanesh.

As far as rubrics go....in order to bring down point costs, someone on this forum had the idea that the sorcerors attached to the squads are required to lead them. Like warlocks are to wraithlords and wraithguard.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
26-12-2006, 10:53
Allowing them to take Daemonic Visage on their models for a cost? For 3 or 5 pts. the entire squad could take Daemonic Visage as a Vet skill?

Although I do like the extra FA slot (more bike and raptors :D ), I have to agree, that doesn't really reflect their fear aspect.

not good solution - very bad solution IMO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wtf:

if they could field bikes as troops they will be fine without messing with 4 FA

Daemonic Visage for 3 or 5 pts - are you mad or broken ???????? it looks like you are - first it cost 2 points and actually it is 2 pts per squad to achive -1 ld - paying 18 or 30 pts for -2 is really stupid if you didnt notice it yet

my idea is to allow every squad marine/terminator/biker buy daemonic gifts and wargear up to 5 pts/chosen should get 25 pts to ive them option to have a bike or sth else and they are chosen of the gods overall/ not including weapons.

this will allow fluffy NL players buy visage at +2 pts per model and other legion could buy they toys too. simple,balanced and no need for sth uber :) what do you think about it ???????

Horusaurus
26-12-2006, 11:41
Ultimately an army with 2 wounds each has got plenty going for it.

onodera
26-12-2006, 12:29
Iron Warriors. Switch around the Oblitz and Dreadnoughts in the FOC and remove the option for a fourth HS and they're fine.
The extra Blitz should become HS.


Alpha Legion. They are the most sneaky and strategic of all of the Legions and the only thing they have is cheap infiltrate (something almost all of the Legions can) and cultists. (something all Legions should have)
In my opinion they should have something like the old Alaitoc Disruption Table. Only not as exploitable. Powerfull and fluffy enough, but not too powerfull.
They are pretty good already. They can combine dirt cheap Infiltrate with a MoCU and another Vet skill. Infiltrating furious chargers or tank hunters and scary.


Word Bearers. Now, the only thing that sets them apart from the rest is the Accursed Crozius, Demagogue and more troop choices. While they are fluffy, they are (except for the Crozius) hardly worth it over the other Legions. Demagogue is almost useless with the already high LD of the CSM troops, or Dirge Casters. It could be nice, but only at a price reduction.
About the extra troops. Not needed. 6 slots is usually enough, only the most diehard WB army would use this option, though it isn't even that fluffy.
I'd suggest WB could get the same summoning advantages the god specific Legions have.
Yep, WBs don't get anything that'll make you use them, not BL.


Night Lords. They are known for their fear tactics and suddenly they get extra FA. :confused: The other advantages are quite good and fluffy, the FA advantage could be replaced with something that moddifies LD though i'm not sure what.
Try playing a Cityfight game against them. Stealth Adept is monstrous.
And a special rule that hinders Reserve Rolls (or at least disables bonuses to it like Improved Comms) would be fluffy.

colrouphobic
26-12-2006, 12:39
I saw someone complaining about how
MoCU is so bad and should be automatic for all non-cult CSM... thats weird...

CSM arent chicken, they just think more about themselfes then about their 2comrades" in arms. Meaning that they wont run because they are affraid, but rather because they live to fight another day.

SMs, on the other hand, rather die to keep a stupid flag in place for five minutes, even if it is at the expense of all their squad...

just my 2 Eurocents

Minos Engele
26-12-2006, 13:27
The extra Blitz should become HS.


They are pretty good already. They can combine dirt cheap Infiltrate with a MoCU and another Vet skill. Infiltrating furious chargers or tank hunters and scary.


Yep, WBs don't get anything that'll make you use them, not BL.


Try playing a Cityfight game against them. Stealth Adept is monstrous.
And a special rule that hinders Reserve Rolls (or at least disables bonuses to it like Improved Comms) would be fluffy.


1, Also an good option.
2, I know AL are pretty good. The thing that bothers me is that it isn't really fluffy. In the background stories the AL use dozens of tactics to gain the upper hand in a fight. Why is this so poorly portrayed in the game?
3, WB armys are almost the same as BL armys but with fewer options. 2/3 of the WB's advantages are mediocre at best.
4, I didn't say there is anything wrong with Stealth Adept. It's fantastic, both ruleswise and fluffy. The thing that bothers me is the extra FA choice they can get. Why is it there? Why do the NL have it? Nothing in the fluff (as far as I know) states that they are a fast army. They are however, fond of using fear tactics but none of their special rules reflect this aspect.


Allowing them to take Daemonic Visage on their models for a cost? For 3 or 5 pts. the entire squad could take Daemonic Visage as a Vet skill?

Could be usefull, but would probably be a little overpowered against certain armys. 5 points to buy it would balance it though.

40kdhs
26-12-2006, 20:05
when will we get a full picture of what will be released in 07 and 08.?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
26-12-2006, 23:02
4 The thing that bothers me is the extra FA choice they can get. Why is it there? Why do the NL have it? Nothing in the fluff (as far as I know) states that they are a fast army. They are however, fond of using fear tactics but none of their special rules reflect this aspect.



Could be usefull, but would probably be a little overpowered against certain armys. 5 points to buy it would balance it though.

4. Night Lords use both bikers and raptors as fluff stated


it will be overpowered ?- just say that raptors ARE overpowered :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

too much point for Nothing is not good

edit:i meant raptors are underpowerd and cost waay to much

BloodiedSword
26-12-2006, 23:30
Raptors aren't really overpowered. Certainly they've been toned down a LOT since the 3rd ed codex, where if they won a round of combat their opponents automatically fell back with no morale check made..

Their disadvantage is their extremely high points cost - if you work out how much extra they get compared to Assault Marines and how much they pay for it, it works out a point per model more than simply upgrading ASMs.

What I would really like to see is some kind of nerfing of super Chaos Lords - something like having the basic Chaos Lord allowed to take 100 pts of gear, of which up to 50 can be Daemonic Gifts, and then having to pay an extra 10 or 15 pts to allow him to take than extra 50/25 of goodies.

IMO the big tooled up princes could use a small points hike, but I think the mid range Lords are about right.

I'd like Bloodletters to be nerfed to kingdom come (seriously, what was wrong with just 2 S5 attacks? Where did this power weapon malarky come from? And what about this ridiculous 3+ save? All as a Troops choice?), with their points cost reduced to match. They're completely out of line with other Troops choices and other Daemons. And I play WE, dammit.

I'd like to see Oblits restored to their T5 glory, with a boost to 80 or 85 pts a piece. And then I'd like to see IW lose their ability to take more than one unit of them under ANY circumstances, and I really would be like to be there to watch them cry.

I'd like some of the daemon weapons to be rebalanced, particularly the Berserker Glaive and Manreaper. Both need a points hike. Meanwhile, I'd like to see the Needle of Desire boosted into a usable item - it's a great concept but horrible execution.

I'd like to see something done about the mass Fearlessness rampant in Chaos armies. Neither my Undivided nor my Worldeaters have failed (or, in the WE case, taken) a Morale test in far longer than I can remember. But this isn't going to happen without a blanket change to Fearless, and it's already too late for that..

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
26-12-2006, 23:42
Raptors aren't really overpowered. Certainly they've been toned down a LOT since the 3rd ed codex, where if they won a round of combat their opponents automatically fell back with no morale check made..

Their disadvantage is their extremely high points cost - if you work out how much extra they get compared to Assault Marines and how much they pay for it, it works out a point per model more than simply upgrading ASMs.

yes they are overpriced

What I would really like to see is some kind of nerfing of super Chaos Lords - something like having the basic Chaos Lord allowed to take 100 pts of gear, of which up to 50 can be Daemonic Gifts, and then having to pay an extra 10 or 15 pts to allow him to take than extra 50/25 of goodies.

there is only one chaos lord either way - even chaplains are better usually

IMO the big tooled up princes could use a small points hike, but I think the mid range Lords are about right.

I'd like Bloodletters to be nerfed to kingdom come (seriously, what was wrong with just 2 S5 attacks? Where did this power weapon malarky come from? And what about this ridiculous 3+ save? All as a Troops choice?), with their points cost reduced to match. They're completely out of line with other Troops choices and other Daemons. And I play WE, dammit.

they need to be toned down i agree

I'd like to see Oblits restored to their T5 glory, with a boost to 80 or 85 pts a piece. And then I'd like to see IW lose their ability to take more than one unit of them under ANY circumstances, and I really would be like to be there to watch them cry.

i agree with this point but IW should have acces to 9 oblits - you mean i'm wrong ?? IF the oblits will be HS as they should i'll be happy that they dont have any pie plates :)

I'd like some of the daemon weapons to be rebalanced, particularly the Berserker Glaive and Manreaper. Both need a points hike. Meanwhile, I'd like to see the Needle of Desire boosted into a usable item - it's a great concept but horrible execution.

dreadaxe need some nerf also - the 2 other are somehow balanced i think - i could be wrong with it as well

I'd like to see something done about the mass Fearlessness rampant in Chaos armies. Neither my Undivided nor my Worldeaters have failed (or, in the WE case, taken) a Morale test in far longer than I can remember. But this isn't going to happen without a blanket change to Fearless, and it's already too late for that..

back on the topic i'd like to see lost and the damned BUt in separate codex than CSM /i'll be happy to portrait my hive militia or Obtenebra troops /

Carcass
26-12-2006, 23:56
what's all about the demon prince ? You get what you pay. He shouldnt be nurfed down, especially when you play undivided and he can lose morale tests etc. Ha can also be insta killed be str 10 weapon. There are ways to kill him and althought he is effective he is expensive. And the fact that there is no 4+ inv save in the chaos codex except the Glaive, speaks for itself. He is balanced because you get what you buy. I only agree to cut the infiltrate and demonic speed mix.

As for berserker glaive and manreaper, they are 25 points its, one per army and you can be wounded freely. Also the manreaper is a random thing. It can still give you 1 attack ( as it can give you 6 more ). The Glaive cuts your option of speed and flying. Because these are good items, it doesnt mean the are unbalanced. Otherwise we should ask for force weapons , railguns etc to be nurfed down as well. Every army has it's " big weapons ".

I dont see the problem with bloodletters. Why ? Because they are In 4 and cost 26 pts per model. For that many points, they are balanced. Because the banshees are 16 points with higher stats ( except from str ) , lower armour but they dont have to wait to enter the battlefield, are faster , they have their exarch, can get into a vehicle etc. Those things that bloodletters cant do. For 26 points and for what they can do, i thing they are fine.

Minos Engele
27-12-2006, 00:17
Another thing that has always bothered me: Only Khorne characters can buy Feel no pain.

WHY only Khorne? Both Nurgle and Slaanesh have better reasons to buy it. Nurgle because he is centered about being able to take punishment. Slaanesh because his champions rejoice in feeling pain. As I see it Khorne Champions are able to focus their rage to the point they don't feel anything but come-on, that's hardly a better reason.
For Tzeentch champions it could represent the ability to completly focus upon Psychic powers. As a result they block out all other thoughts and sensations.

In other words, move Feel no Pain from the Book of Khorne to the Undivided gifts. Ow and give it an points increase. Now it's too cheap for what it does, which is partialy ignoring lascannon shots.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
27-12-2006, 00:25
ignoring lascannon shoots ?? only for DP who is too powerfull by itself and deserve some "nerf"/not exacly - sth like fixed equip should work too/


about feel no pain it is very powerfull and i dont think that every chaos player should get it - khorne only is good

also Slaaneshi baner gives feel no pain which is worth notice :)

HalfEvil333
27-12-2006, 00:43
Bloodletters are ok as is, maybe drop the armor by a point. I just wish Horrors were more of a viable option. 2 wounds is nice, but with T3 and a weak ranged attack for a ranged oriented daemon, they just don't seem like they are worth the points.

Switch the S and the T, raise the AP of Daemonic Fire by one, maybe throw in an extra point or two, and there you go.

Lord Humongous
27-12-2006, 01:28
Another thing that has always bothered me: Only Khorne characters can buy Feel no pain.
WHY only Khorne?

Because Khorne is the only one that needs it. Khorne has much more limited shooting, limited control over movment of models, and no "infiltrate". In short, they are FORCED to soak up fire, just to excersize the only viable tactics they have. In compensation, their characters (DP's in particular) are tougher to kill, though they often have to do jobs other DP's can avoid.

Also, FnP can actually negate wounds from Demaonic Weapon mastery tests, and (per the USR) would work against "perils of the warp". Khorne lords can't be sorcerers, and the Khorne deamon weapon has its own drawbacks.

Also, can you imagine a MoS character with both combat drugs, AND Feal no Pain?

BloodiedSword
27-12-2006, 01:52
To be honest, my problem with Bloodletters isn't that they're too good for their points - I'd say they could use a point or two extra, but they're ok as is.

My problem is that they're far too destructive for a Troops choice, and unnecessarily so. There was really no reason to make them so much more powerful than the other daemons in so many different ways - excellent armour save, power weapons, Ld 10.

Acheron - thank you for reminding me - Oblits definitely need to be moved back into HS. I have no idea why they were moved into Elites, except so that IW players could take 9 as well as all those pie plates. However, the thought of 9 Oblits at T5 is pretty terrifying, even without pie plate support - I'm not sure it's something I'm keen on seeing at all. I kinda like that 0-1 limit really :p

The Glaive isn't so bad these days, but on a Termie Lord with that, Strength, Rune, Essence and Spiky Bits can be fairly terrifying. Still, I suppose there are worse things in the Codex. The Manreaper is scary because there are so many combat rounds in a game that the number of bonus attacks tends to average out - which means an average of 3.5 bonus attacks per round of combat. Add that to the fact that I have yet to fail a Mastery test, and from my point of view they feel underpriced. Then again, I haven't been around Pariahs or the new Eldar so maybe it's not all that simple..

Perhaps they should change the effect of Daemon weapons to something that is less damaging when it occurs, but much more likely to occur. As it is, taking 2 Ld tests on 10 every turn is still not that big a deal, and it's almost never that often..

I think the fix for Feel No Pain is to give it 2 points costs - the first one is the one it costs now, for T4 base models (including T4(5)). The second, more expensive cost would be for T5 base models. Something more in the range of 25 pts would be appropriate.

Horusaurus
27-12-2006, 09:41
I don't think the Daemon Prince should be made weaker. These are supposed to be some of the baddest mofos in 40k. They should just increase their pts cost. Probably make D Stature more expensive (but maybe have it not count towards the D Gifts total) and tweak some of the pts costs for the other gifts.

Bloodletters should lose the 3+ armor save simply because of WYSIWYG concerns (their models have no armor whatsoever!). This would necessitate a pts reduction.

And Thousands Sons really need to be fixed. SM librarians should not have better psychic powers than sorcerers of Tzeentch!!!

spikydavid
27-12-2006, 10:43
when will we get a full picture of what will be released in 07 and 08.?

Offhand, I'd say around 2009

Kjell
27-12-2006, 12:04
To be honest, my problem with Bloodletters isn't that they're too good for their points - I'd say they could use a point or two extra, but they're ok as is.

My problem is that they're far too destructive for a Troops choice, and unnecessarily so. There was really no reason to make them so much more powerful than the other daemons in so many different ways - excellent armour save, power weapons, Ld 10.

Ah, yes. Daemons. I too believe that Bloodletters could do well with a decrease in power (and points!). They're not quite in line with the Plaguebearers or the Daemonettes. If you scrape some of the awesome off of the Bloodletters' plate and add that to the measly crumbs the Horrors have... Presto! Equally viable daemons for all! :D Exactly what the Horrors need to make them stop suck so much, I don't know. Maybe something as simple as a points decrease, maybe a complete overhaul or anything in between. Most Tzeentchian daemons could need a design overhaul, come to think of it...

I wouldn't mind Flesh Hounds getting a look at, either. And I would love to see Daemonic Cavalry returning in full force. Though, that's unlikely since GW would have to add the WHFB rules somehow. WD is out of the question...

Helicon_One
27-12-2006, 12:17
The Bloodletters are just inconsistent - there's no reason for them to gain Ld10 and a power armoured thong over and above what Daemonettes, Horrors and Plaguebearers get, and removing those two things would allow them to drop back into the same points range as the other three, rather than standing out like a sore thumb as they do currently.

Tim

BloodiedSword
27-12-2006, 13:41
My gripe about Daemon Princes isn't so much that they get too powerful, but rather than Daemonic Gifts stack multiplicatively, whereas their points cost are additive. I'm all for allowing the most powerful of Chaos lords to be ridiculously powerful, but they should have to pay extra for that level of godhood.

I mean, Daemonic Strength is a flat (censored) pts, regardless of if you're an undivided lord with a measly 4 attacks, or a tooled up Khorne prince with 8 attacks. Yet the Khorne prince is definitely getting more of a benefit from that..

Similarly, while the T increase from Stature might be OK as is, and the FNP cost be OK as is, when you combine the two suddenly it becomes horribly underpriced.

Basically, I want the more expensive DPs to be even more expensive, while the low and mid range lords should not be made any more expensive. This would be best done by a scale like "First Daemonic Gift is all ok, second Gift adds 2 pts to Lord's base cost, third adds an additional 3 pts on top of that, fourth adds an additional 5 pts, fifth adds an additional 8 pts and gifts beyond the fifth add an additional 10 pts each".

I very much doubt this will happen as it seems to complicated for GW to do (they cut out Mutable Genus, after all). But I can dream..

Minos Engele
27-12-2006, 13:48
Because Khorne is the only one that needs it. Khorne has much more limited shooting, limited control over movment of models, and no "infiltrate". In short, they are FORCED to soak up fire, just to excersize the only viable tactics they have. In compensation, their characters (DP's in particular) are tougher to kill, though they often have to do jobs other DP's can avoid.

Also, FnP can actually negate wounds from Demaonic Weapon mastery tests, and (per the USR) would work against "perils of the warp". Khorne lords can't be sorcerers, and the Khorne deamon weapon has its own drawbacks.

Also, can you imagine a MoS character with both combat drugs, AND Feal no Pain?

I admit defeat.:D Great arguments.

Something I just thought of, what if Chosen CSM become more like a crossbreed of Aspiring Champions and Commisars. Aschamps statline and options, squad size is 3-10. Unless they are used in one squad they can be assigned to other CSM squads. Multiple Chosen can join a squad.

The concept seems to follow the background but it could be easily abused with multiple hidden powerfists. One way to solve this is to increase point costs or to make them be picked out in CC.

jubilex
27-12-2006, 14:19
Wish list? One thing that was good in the chaos dex, was the reintroduction of sacred numbers and I would like the idea expanded. Let daemons come in packs of up to 2x appropriate sacred number. Have "tardis" vehicles, that can transport up to 2x, for an appropriate points rise. A vehicle upgrade to allow daemons to be summoned to a vehicle, maybe. War altars that effect the way an army works, like a traits system, but limited in the way it would effect cult marines. But, most of all, CHAOS GUARD AND CULTISTS. They are there in the fluff, the iconic picture of chaos is a hoarde of freaks backed up by a few marines, thats what I would like to see. Maybe then my deathguard + 40 zombies would be legal again.