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xibo
31-12-2006, 10:51
I'm allways hearing 'crons warriors would be bad in CC... but how comes this? I mean, whenever cron run into my troops or I(that is, my priests) think it'd be nice to charge them by myself, it ends up with necrons punching my troops up. I see guardsmen are not all that good in CC but even if i assault him with say twice the many(20(40 attacks)vs10) models its most often just 2 crons who fall ( and one of them stands up again ), while i can be sure to lose at least 2 guardsmen on my side to the remaining crons so he doesn't even have to make a panic check...
I know guard isn't all that good in cc, and in case of necrons, a single guardsmen is even worse than a single fire warrior. So I thought about my mighty allies of the adeptus soritas... but they suck the same as guardsmen, just with the difference they can stand more punches due to their better armour save...

Ok, now marines... everyone plays marines so I guess marines are better than necrons ... but wait... 10 marines hit 5 necrons on 4+, wound 2 or 3 on 4+ again and a single necron fails his 3+ save. Wow... not all that good if you ask me. Now this necrons stands up again...
Searge with powersword hits one or two crons and wounds one. One dead that at least doesn't stand up again...

Then I think hey marines have fency crap like termies, jumping ones, veterans with additional cc weaps ( or better power weaps ), the best non SC psyker and dreadnaughts to deal with crons in CC... But on the other side Crons have Immortals, Flayed ones and our all beloved everysave-ignoring pariahs to counter that ( and they are very effective against pfists termies and dreads i guess ) who might be same priced as chosen terminators but have t5 and 2d6 pen. tomb spiders also aren't really all that bad in CC (resilent) IMO...

So how comes everyone is saying crons are easy to beat in CC?
Power weapons may be able to render them as marines, but power weapons are not all that common... or at least they are not supposed to be in fluff ORIENTED armies...

marv335
31-12-2006, 10:56
the reason necrons are considered bad in cc is this;
1. low I
2. no power weapons
3. sweeping advance denies WBB (see point 1)

SwordsofChaos
31-12-2006, 11:59
Necrons ain´t good in CC because of above reasons, and the fact that they don´t hit very hard when they do hit. They are still good enough to beat the weaker shooting races though. Pariahs, Wraiths and Flayed Ones help with this, but they are not used very much, instead giving way for the more popular choices of Destroyers and Immortals.

Flame Boy
31-12-2006, 12:11
I could see Flayed ones being quite effective against races with weaker troops, especially for harassing heavy weapon squads and so on. However, it seems that Necrons either ignore armour spectacularly, but with only very limited attacks, or they have a reasonable number of attacks, but can't penetrate infantry armour well. I guess if Flayed ones and Pariahs were piled into combat together, perhaps with some Scarabs to pin the enemy down and soak up some casualties, but that's a large portion of a force dedicated to squashing a squad in close combat.

I can imagine there is some potential in Necron armies to deal out some impressive damage, but I think most people find just avoiding combat and teleporting out to shoot the enemy are preferable.

However, that's just from looking at the codex and listening to other people. I haven't had the pleasure of playing against Necrons or fielding them myself.

Helicon_One
31-12-2006, 12:25
When people say Necrons are poor in combat, they're talking in terms of inflicting damage on an opponent. As in the OP, though, they can absorb ungodly amounts of punishment from enemy (non power weapon equipped) combatants.

But if you're taking a unit into combat, you generally want to be able to kill them, not just pound away on each other to no appreciable effect until the game ends, so in that sense, yes they're pretty bad combat troops.

Tim

Brother_Falco
31-12-2006, 12:35
Because when people say "Necron" they mean "Warriors" who are definitely specialist shooty troops, lacking the wargear that allows Marines to be effective in CC, something they are not intrinsically good at either.

I wouldn't say they're crap, given that xibo's points about the difficulty of killing them quickly is very true, vs. Marines without powerweapons they're an effective tarpit, slightly less so if the Vet has a power-weapon and not really that useful at all if the Vet has a powerfist.
Unfortunately anything assaulting generally does have a powerweapon/fist along, so they don't shine at 'pitting.

However, a big enough unit of warriors can tie down CC troopies fairly effectively just because a fist'd sergeant is the only one likely to be killing anything that stays dead, especially with a rez orb nearby.

So no, they're not crap, but you don't want them in CC.

As for the other types...the problem is that either their saves are a bit iffy for facing a lot of attacks or their unit size is so small as to render CC with anything even slightly tooled up a dubious prospect.

What I would suggest as an effective Necron CC unit is Scarabs.
Cheap, multi-wound, zippy and can pump out a decent amount of attacks to counter-balance their crappy statline.
They're nearly always useful, especially when there's no one who can instant-kill them.
(Which is pretty much everyone who's not got a 'fist. T3 is useful i say!)
My main-opponent (and flatmate) has a fair amount of them in his Necron army and enjoys great success with them, managing to lockup big units or wipe out small ones just through numbers of attacks and wounds.

Mr_Smiley
31-12-2006, 13:37
Necrons are not weak in close combat, the true weakness of necrons in close combat is the sweeping advance, but a clever necron player knows what battles to pick. I often charge my Necrons into my opponents terminators and chosen terminators, and often win, simply because I out number them and keep the pressure on them.
Necrons are almost as good in close-combat as marines, and if you throw in the odd Lord/Pariah/C'tan you can tie up an expensive squad like Terminators and then grind them into the ground.
However if you can't outnumber or out batter an opponent your necrons shouldn't be going anywhere near them.

Angelus Mortis
31-12-2006, 13:44
Necrons are not weak in close combat, the true weakness of necrons in close combat is the sweeping advance, but a clever necron player knows what battles to pick. I often charge my Necrons into my opponents terminators and chosen terminators, and often win, simply because I out number them and keep the pressure on them.
Necrons are almost as good in close-combat as marines, and if you throw in the odd Lord/Pariah/C'tan you can tie up an expensive squad like Terminators and then grind them into the ground.
However if you can't outnumber or out batter an opponent your necrons shouldn't be going anywhere near them.
Personally, I would make that 20 Warrior squad into a 10 Warrior squad before I let you assault it. And quite frankly, the only way this tactic will be successful vs. Terminators is if you have a Resurrection orb within 6". You do know that Powerfists dont allow a WWB? A 10 man Termy squad dishes out 20 Powerfist attack a round and will hit with 10 on average and wound with all of them. If they assault you it would be 30. So unless you got some good rolls and he got some lousy ones or you have an orb, you arent going to win this one. And thats not even taking into account whiddling you down before you get there. I give you 2 rounds without an orb, 4 with.

To the orignal poster, the reason Necrons didnt look bad in CC is because you were fighting them vs. IG. The IG is worse than Necrons in CC. The real point is, most armies can be made to very nasty in CC, while the Necrons are very limited. Basicaly you can tool most armies up to wipe Necrons in CC.

Nehcrum
31-12-2006, 14:19
The weakness of the necrons in CC, is not their resiliency, that's one of their trademarks and will of course apply to CC as well as shooting.

Their CC weakness comes from their inability in killing the enemy back.
Normal necrons warriors, immortals and destroyers, have very few attacks, just 1 each, low I, so they will hit last (except for the powerfists) and they have no weapons that will cause any extra damage (squadleaders, powerweapons/fists).

They have the resiliency, but they just aren't killing the enemy back.
So they can be tied up in CC (unless there is a monolith or Veil around), and slowly ground down, since they aren't likely to win.
But they still have their resiliency.


IMO, flayers aren't that impressive either. They have +1 attack and same I as a marine, and for that they give up all shooting ability. Makes them a bit better in CC, but they sacrifice other uses for it. And Pariahs are just too costly for what they do IMO.

Left is the wraiths. Dangerous, fast and inv saves. but few wounds and no more resilient than a warrior (except for the save being invulnerable).

Frodo34x
31-12-2006, 14:22
When people say Necrons are weak in close combat, they are comparing them to things like Chaos or Space Wolf troops choices, who are excellent at CC. A basic Necron warrior is only slightly worse than a Marine in CC (in theory).

Angelus Mortis
31-12-2006, 15:29
When people say Necrons are weak in close combat, they are comparing them to things like Chaos or Space Wolf troops choices, who are excellent at CC. A basic Necron warrior is only slightly worse than a Marine in CC (in theory).We are saying it because when you line them up in a row showing results of combat(ie, who won) starting with the worse to the best, the Necrons fall at the worse end of the scale. Its pretty elemtary really. IMHO, I think people who are claiming they are good in CC havent really had an extensive experience of various armies vs Necrons or each other to have a good general idea of whose good at CC and who isnt. A S4, T4 and a 3+ save does not automaticly= good CC, since all of these are easily circumvented by armies that are good at CC.

mistformsquirrel
31-12-2006, 15:50
Also, as I recall, anything that ignores a necrons armor save (in CC), will prevent an WBB attempts, am I right on that? So assuming I'm remembering that right, against anyone with a substantial number of power weapons (not all that uncommon) - not only are they going last and not killing much when they swing back - but they also can't come back; making the phase out that much closer.

Curufew
31-12-2006, 15:56
I think they're weak in CC because of their Low I, No Power Weapons

Frodo34x
31-12-2006, 16:40
While often rated as bad, they still beat IG in combat. Standard tactical marines won't exactly find them a walkover, either.

mattjgilbert
31-12-2006, 16:52
The Necron ability to stick around (aka WBB) makes them good for tying up units for longer than expected.

Scarabs are great at bogging down units (heavy weapon teams, assault troops) and taking them out the game for several turns.

A Lord on Destroyer Body (with Gaze of Flame, Chronometron) attached to a unit of 3 Wraiths will munch through mid-low spec units with ease. They should win the combat, the enemy then takes a Ld test with at least -1 (Gaze of Flame) and then the Sweeping Advance (SA) is done using majority I (the Wraiths superior one) using the Chronometron (which allows you to roll an extra dice and discard the lowest). Chances are you will SA most units first time :D

So while Necrons are not primarily a CC oriented army, they can overcome this by bogging down the enemy advance and can also have a few nasty counter-punches themselves.

Angelus Mortis
31-12-2006, 19:10
A Lord on Destroyer Body (with Gaze of Flame, Chronometron) attached to a unit of 3 Wraiths will munch through mid-low spec units with ease. They should win the combat, the enemy then takes a Ld test with at least -1 (Gaze of Flame) and then the Sweeping Advance (SA) is done using majority I (the Wraiths superior one) using the Chronometron (which allows you to roll an extra dice and discard the lowest). Chances are you will SA most units first time :D
I dont know, I will still take my Assault Terminators w/Lighting Claws, Furious Charge and a Chaplain attached anyday. The point we are making is that as a general rule, the Necrons suck at CC. For every nifty trick you can come up with, or nasty combo, when it comes to CC the majority of other armies can come up with a better one. They are very nasty when it comes to shooting, but when it comes to CC they leave something to be desired.


While often rated as bad, they still beat IG in combat.You dont say? I think I pointed out earlier that the IG are worse in CC than Necrons. The only army worse than IG in CC is Tau. You could argue they got Kroot, but IG have Rough Riders, Ogryns and Command Squads that can be kitted out for CC.

insectum7
31-12-2006, 20:03
It ain't that the 'Crons are bad in CC, it just happens to be a major weakness because they cannot WBB after being Sweeping Advanced. Generally when fighting Crons you really want to pour the squads on them in order to wipe them out as fast as possible. If you aim to win the combat round, even if it's by one casualty, but you outnumber the Crons by 3 or 4 to 1 you are going to see that Cron player getting pretty worried.

That said, Terminators are a tough nut to crack with a Nercon army. But the right combo can see the crons winning out through attrition in CC. (though personaly I tend to knock the Terminators out using Heavy Destroyers)

Tulun
31-12-2006, 21:11
Inability to kill the enemy back?

Remember guys, they are as tough as a Space Marine w/ bolter, excluding INI. I've see SM with Bolters bash just fine. And they are far more resilient than a SM.

It's a myth that Necrons are bad in CC, it's just they do far better shooting. The new rapid fire rules makes a Warrior squad devastating for assault troops, esspecially when they have several ways of leaving CC.

Angelus Mortis
31-12-2006, 21:21
Inability to kill the enemy back?

Remember guys, they are as tough as a Space Marine w/ bolter, excluding INI. I've see SM with Bolters bash just fine. And they are far more resilient than a SM.

It's a myth that Necrons are bad in CC, it's just they do far better shooting. The new rapid fire rules makes a Warrior squad devastating for assault troops, esspecially when they have several ways of leaving CC.Wow. First time I had to quote myself to reply to someone. Wierd.


A S4, T4 and a 3+ save does not automaticly= good CC, since all of these are easily circumvented by armies that are good at CC.

Tulun
31-12-2006, 21:34
I disagree :) They are just fine in CC. They won't beat genestealers, or a Hive Tyrant, or Bloodthirster or Terminators... but then, just shoot them.

They aren't TOP OF THE LINE, omg impossible to beat assault troops, but they can easily hold a charge. Take 15 man Warrior troops, and suddenly outnumber isn't as big a deal. A lot of rending troops in the game have less than 4+ armor saves; Shoot the crap out of them before they assault, and laugh as they bounce off you due to low number of attacks for rending (and butt them down).

And holding a charge when you can just leave combat makes them effective at what they do. If they aren't being hit with enmass power weapon attacks, and you take a decent sized squad, Necrons are just fine.

Gensuke626
31-12-2006, 22:09
The individual Necron Warrior in CC is not very impressive. Marine stats at I2 with WBB to compensate. A squad of Necron Warriors fighting a Squad of Tacitcal marines, the Marines have the advantage since their sarge can get a PW or PF and they are at I4. Eldar Banshees have a similar advantage, but suffer from a problem I will list below.

Now, GEQ units have a problem in that they are easily wounded by Meqs and have a difficult time in wounding back. In fact, the only advantage most Geqs have is a higher I than the Necrons. Geqs are worse than Crons for the most part.

Now, Orks...orks are Just badass so of course orks can kill tin 'eads easy.

Kahadras
31-12-2006, 22:58
Necrons are OK at CC IMO. They can quickly bog down units that don't contain plenty of power weapons or power fists and this has to count for something. Their WBB is quite effective as well and can see them win a protracted combat against any average MEq unit.

Kahadras

Tulun
01-01-2007, 00:11
Exactly. Necrons aren't bad in combat.. but because of their resilience (even against power, they can get back up... most Necrons players are smart enough to position their Orb close by!), they can win combats, over time.

Or, just leave combat, and make them eat 20-30 BS4 Bolters ; ;

Angelus Mortis
01-01-2007, 01:33
I notice you guys keep saying the same thing over and over so I guess I will have to reiterate myself. You say that
They can quickly bog down units that don't contain plenty of power weapons or power fists. While this sounds good on paper, in reality, if someone has a CC army and knows hes going to face Necrons you wont have this luxury. Unfortunately, he should know better and equip his squads with power weapons and power fists. So this point your making is only viable vs. either A)a list who is worse in CC than Necrons (ie, IG and Tau), or B)a player who is very, very inexperienced. If you fight an experienced player you are going to face power weapons and powerfists. Place your orb in range of the squad in melee. Please, by all means! That means with some basic maneuvering, hes gonna be in the melee also and being an independant character, hes gonna take his share of attacks. Then its bye bye orb. I really think you guys need to play some experienced players, because this idea that the Necrons are ok or just fine or even (*snicker* :D ) good at CC is quite frankly, ridiculous. My final point as this thread continues to go round and round. Anything CC wise the Necrons can come up with is easily bested by any list that is decent at CC.

Tulun
01-01-2007, 02:07
Anything CC wise the Necrons can come up with is easily bested by any list that is decent at CC.

>>> Assuming you KNOW your facing necrons... that isn't likely the case.

Kahadras
01-01-2007, 02:21
While this sounds good on paper, in reality, if someone has a CC army and knows hes going to face Necrons you wont have this luxury

To which I say..


Assuming you KNOW your facing necrons... that isn't likely the case.

It's easy to beat an army if you know what you are going to going up against before the game. At the end of the day Necron possibly have one of the hardest basic infantry units in the game. Even tactical marines will have a challenge against these guys in hth.


I really think you guys need to play some experienced players, because this idea that the Necrons are ok or just fine or even (*snicker* ) good at CC is quite frankly, ridiculous.

I find this statement hilarious (and borderline flamebait). As most 'experienced' Necron players never need to worry about getting into close combat for more than a turn anyway. How about a turbo boosting Necron lords with Destroyer body and Warscythe? How about turbo boosting Scarabs? Into your lines and pinning your best heavy support units down by turn two. I'm sure that's a laugh a minuite.

Kahadras

Angelus Mortis
01-01-2007, 03:54
Ok, I know I said its my last point but I saw this and it made my eye twitch so, here goes.


Assuming you KNOW your facing necrons... that isn't likely the case. How would you not know what your facing?:wtf: Heres a fine example. Not likely? What do you do? Randomly draw chits out of hat? Never seen that before.

Player 1: Hey. Up for a game?
Player 2: Sure. What list you want to use?
Player 1:Ummm...Necrons sounds fun.
Player 2: Ok. Ill grab my Daemonhunters.

Get the idea? Even if your doing a tournament, you can still be prepared for a Necron list with an all comers list, if you list is a decent CC army.



It's easy to beat an army if you know what you are going to going up against before the game. At the end of the day Necron possibly have one of the hardest basic infantry units in the game. Even tactical marines will have a challenge against these guys in hth.Agreed. Versus shooting, not close combat. And as far as knowing what your going up against, I only need to know what Army hes choosing. Doesnt matter specifics when you know its capabilities.


I find this statement hilarious (and borderline flamebait). As most 'experienced' Necron players never need to worry about getting into close combat for more than a turn anyway. How about a turbo boosting Necron lords with Destroyer body and Warscythe? Ok. Ill play your silly game. Turboboosting Necron Lord with a Warscythe? No sweat. How about a GK Grandmaster with I5 and 4(5 on the charge) S6 force weapon attacks before you get to attack? With a Ld10, all its gonna take is one succesful wound and no more Lord(force weapon), with no retaliation.


How about turbo boosting Scarabs? Into your lines and pinning your best heavy support units down by turn two.Oh I love this one. Very very tough. Unless as I said before, you are going against an army that is good at CC and knows what their doing. Please, turbo boost right into range of my Purgation Squad with 4x Psycannons. You wont reach them first turn. Lets see. 10x Scarabs with T3 and 5+invunerable save vs. 12xS6 Psycannon shots at AP4 and no invunerables allowed. Can you say "instakill"? Ooooh! Look! A couple survived and made into CC with the Purgation squad! How about 13xS6 CC attacks that hit on 3s, wound on 2s and 3 of which are power weapon attacks? Did I mention this was all before you can even attack? Instakill yet again. And from the very squad you want to tie up. As I said before:

Anything CC wise the Necrons can come up with is easily bested by any list that is decent at CC.


I'm sure that's a laugh a minuite.Yeah, it would be hilarious. Next day on Warseer new threads pop up about how cheesy Daemonhunters are.

Master Jeridian
01-01-2007, 04:13
Necrons 'crap' in close combat?

By this we mean Necron Warriors- yes?
By opponent we must assume the most likely, so Space Marines- yes?

If so, then yes they are- your point?
They have no power weapons or combat abilities like Rending- so they put out a single SM attack. That really isn't impressive- at all. Even SM players don't rely on basic SM attacks.

The thing that makes SM much better in combat than Necrons is the hidden power fist.

So without this- I am told in this thread that Necrons can hold their own, can simply stall and hold an enemy and grind them down- against a SM squad without power weaponry...

...a SM squad without power weaponry- are you serious. Since a Necron Warrior unit has little to no way of getting into combat faster than walking (and why would they want to)- this can only mean the SM player has intentionally let a unit be charged, or has charged himself. And any SM squad that intends to fight in combat and doesn't have a power fist deserves to be slapped.

The main kicker for Necrons is Initative 2- if a Necron unit loses a combat (and it will) and fails it's Ld check (with multiple modifiers it does happen), it will be chased down by Initiative 4 Marines. And at that point a Marine unit (say a jump pack Chappie and Assault squad ) has just destroyed an entire Necron Warrior unit in one round of close combat- a feat that would take a lot of firepower over the course of a fair few turns of shooting.

So yes, at that point the Necrons are crap in cc.

Against IG, etc of course they do better in combat- they are treble to cost of a Guardsmen FFS. But then generally when people make bold and general statements like 'Necrons are crap in cc' they are basing their observations on the most common opponent- Space Marines.

Mr_Smiley
01-01-2007, 09:54
Ok. Ill play your silly game. Turboboosting Necron Lord with a Warscythe? No sweat. How about a GK Grandmaster with I5 and 4(5 on the charge) S6 force weapon attacks before you get to attack? With a Ld10, all its gonna take is one succesful wound and no more Lord(force weapon), with no retaliation.


I have never lost my lord in CC to any form of Instant Kill close-combat weaponry, in fact I had my Lord stand up after 3 Instant Kill attacks, across different turns, from a Space Marine Librarian, finally the Librarian missed, I hit back and promptly squished him like the bug he is.
Also a lightning field will hit back even if the Lord doesn't get a hit.

You talk about Necrons being bad in CC because, although they can bog down units, an experienced player can get around this. Have you ever faced an experienced Necron player?
Yes they are not as good as Grey Knights or Space Marines in CC but they make up for that with the chance to survive and hit back at a later time.


And I find Grey Knights the uncheesiest space marines force out there, I find them underpowered for the cost.

Sekhmet
01-01-2007, 10:18
No hidden powerfists. Yes, a Necron warrior is bad in CC.



A Lord on Destroyer Body (with Gaze of Flame, Chronometron) attached to a unit of 3 Wraiths will munch through mid-low spec units with ease. They should win the combat, the enemy then takes a Ld test with at least -1 (Gaze of Flame) and then the Sweeping Advance (SA) is done using majority I (the Wraiths superior one) using the Chronometron (which allows you to roll an extra dice and discard the lowest). Chances are you will SA most units first time :D

Actually, technically, the Lord is a separate unit in CC and may not even be attached to the Wraith squad in the first place. Therefore, would there have to be 2 SA checks instead of just 1?

By the way, while 3 wraith + destroyer lord is a very very good CC unit, keep in mind the unit will probably be 320 pts. Comparable CC units in other armies are much cheaper. :(



Anything CC wise the Necrons can come up with is easily bested by any list that is decent at CC.

C'tan. I've used the Deceiver to wade through 3 GK termie squads and annihilate the Grand Master. "But he has a force weapon!" you may say. He hits on 4s, wounds on 6s and I get a 4+ invul. He strikes simultaneously. I hit on 4s, wound on 2s, no save, one hit kill. I've had my Deceiver take down a flyrant and 2 tricked out fexes in a single game, mostly at the same time. I've only lost it twice, once when my opponent got a lucky Gift of Chaos (fired twice in one turn. >.<) and when I had about 2000 pts of combined Tau and IG Stormtroopers fire at it in a single turn.

The_Outsider
01-01-2007, 10:21
Whats that? a destroyer lord and monolith = first turn charge? Huh, and someone told me necrons were crap......

azimaith
01-01-2007, 10:41
Its not a myth that necron warriors are bad in CC. They just aren't really very good there. A standard tac squad with a powerfist will maul necron warriors badly. The necrons have nothing similar in terms of power weapon sergeants to improve themselves in CC so they just basically don't do that well.

As for IG, necrons aren't great in CC, IG just flat out suck at it in most cases. Necrons are a full step above a standard guardsman in terms of statistics, but they're also 3 times more expensive. Big suprise that they're better.

Whats that? a destroyer lord and monolith = first turn charge? Huh, and someone told me necrons were crap......

A destroyer lord charging say a tac squad with a powerfist will just get charged by another unit and squashed by both. Chaging a destroyer in alone is like charging in chaplain alone, except you've got better toughness and strength, but worse weapon skill and initiative, and attacks, doesn't matter that hes about an weak IC fighter, charging in alone to any squad, be it guard or even tau, is asking to get bogged down indefinately if not outright killed. The only races who can afford to throw single HQ models into battle are Tyranids and Chaos.
Besides, who cares if they charge you with a necron lord first turn, its 500 points all to get a low quality CC character into battles he can't win.



C'tan. I've used the Deceiver to wade through 3 GK termie squads and annihilate the Grand Master. "But he has a force weapon!" you may say. He hits on 4s, wounds on 6s and I get a 4+ invul. He strikes simultaneously. I hit on 4s, wound on 2s, no save, one hit kill. I've had my Deceiver take down a flyrant and 2 tricked out fexes in a single game, mostly at the same time. I've only lost it twice, once when my opponent got a lucky Gift of Chaos (fired twice in one turn. >.<) and when I had about 2000 pts of combined Tau and IG Stormtroopers fire at it in a single turn.
I think the point here is mainly that the deciever is a special character, introducing him to the equation is like introducing abbadon the despoiler to the equation (If he hits, you die, instantly).

I run a necron army thats based around a wraith wing, and it does fairly well in CC, but not near as well as I can tool out other armies. Necrons are better at enduring than killing CC and they certainly don't reach above lukewarm of the CC-competence-meter.

Mr_Smiley
01-01-2007, 10:47
A destroyer lord charging say a tac squad with a powerfist will just get charged by another unit and squashed by both. Chaging a destroyer in alone is like charging in chaplain alone, except you've got better toughness and strength, but worse weapon skill and initiative, and attacks, doesn't matter that hes about an weak IC fighter, charging in alone to any squad, be it guard or even tau, is asking to get bogged down indefinately if not outright killed. The only races who can afford to throw single HQ models into battle are Tyranids and Chaos.
Besides, who cares if they charge you with a necron lord first turn, its 500 points all to get a low quality CC character into battles he can't win.

I couldn't agree more, a Necron Lord should be used in conjunction with a squad, he will do the damage one enemy model at a time while his res orb helps keep his squad alive while they hold up the enemy.

Also, i've tested Abbadon vs both C'tan by myself, as in not in a game, and Abbadon loses unless he gets lucky with the dice, while the C'tan only have to hit and Abbadon is basically gone for good.

azimaith
01-01-2007, 11:16
Abbaddon only has to hit. Any enemy hit by his daemon sword dies. Doesn't say wounded, I don't think it even deals with saves as saves come after wounding, which never takes place.

mattjgilbert
01-01-2007, 11:16
I dont know, I will still take my Assault Terminators w/Lighting Claws, Furious Charge and a Chaplain attached anyday. The point we are making is that as a general rule, the Necrons suck at CC. Well that's the point you are trying to make. But in general, no they don't. Against a CC tailored army they will not fair that well agreed once stuck in but in general they do not suck. And I said that combo works well against mid-low spec units. I don't consider your example mid-low spec.


For every nifty trick you can come up with, or nasty combo, when it comes to CC the majority of other armies can come up with a better one. They are very nasty when it comes to shooting, but when it comes to CC they leave something to be desired.Fine so long as you know you are facing Necrons and have thus made a list accordingly. Doesn't happen that often in my experience, especially at tournaments where you have one list for the day and have no idea what you will be facing.

Sekhmet
01-01-2007, 11:19
Abbaddon only has to hit. Any enemy hit by his daemon sword dies. Doesn't say wounded, I don't think it even deals with saves as saves come after wounding, which never takes place.

Invul saves are still allowed. Basically, there's about a 25% chance that Abaddon will kill a C'tan each round.

Mr_Smiley
01-01-2007, 12:30
Abbaddon only has to hit. Any enemy hit by his daemon sword dies. Doesn't say wounded, I don't think it even deals with saves as saves come after wounding, which never takes place.

I took that into account, he can kill one but he more often looses.

azimaith
01-01-2007, 12:33
Well considering the deciever is some 45 odd points more expensive why shouldn't he.

The deciever will have to wound him at least 3 times to kill him anyhow.

Kahadras
01-01-2007, 12:37
How would you not know what your facing?

When I turn up at my club and ask if anyone is up for a game? When I turn up at a GW store and ask some random guy for a game?


Ok. Ill play your silly game. Turboboosting Necron Lord with a Warscythe? No sweat. How about a GK Grandmaster with I5 and 4(5 on the charge) S6 force weapon attacks before you get to attack? With a Ld10, all its gonna take is one succesful wound and no more Lord(force weapon), with no retaliation.


I love it when people call a tactical discusion a 'silly game'. Why would I want to charge your GK Grandmaster? Now that's silly. Better off to go after that Devestator squad or IG heavy weapon squad or Tau crisis suit squad etc. Going after your oponants best close combat unit with a single character is a bit stupid (unless it's a Bloodthirster).


Oh I love this one. Very very tough. Unless as I said before, you are going against an army that is good at CC and knows what their doing. Please, turbo boost right into range of my Purgation Squad with 4x Psycannons. You wont reach them first turn. Lets see. 10x Scarabs with T3 and 5+invunerable save vs. 12xS6 Psycannon shots at AP4 and no invunerables allowed. Can you say "instakill"? Ooooh! Look! A couple survived and made into CC with the Purgation squad! How about 13xS6 CC attacks that hit on 3s, wound on 2s and 3 of which are power weapon attacks? Did I mention this was all before you can even attack? Instakill yet again. And from the very squad you want to tie up. As I said before:

Again why would I be stupid enough to turboboost Scarabs into range of a unit I know will slaughter them before they even have a chance to get into combat? I really don't think you get this whole 'giving your opponant credit' thing. What if I use cover? Oh look you can't shoot me I'm behind a building/wood. Going to move forward to try to get a better shot? That's all good too as it it means..

A. Your going to be moving closer to my lines (therefore more of my weapons are within range to shoot at you).

B. Your going to be wasting a lot of psycannon fire on what, is ultimatly, a distraction.

At the end of the day the Necrons can pull some nice tricks out of the bag IMHO. OK they're not as awesome as armies that are geared towards close combat (but that's blindingly obvious anyway). Even so they are by no means 'crap'.

Their warriors are as tough as marines and has a 50/50 chance of getting back up after you've killed them. I've hit a squad of Necron warriors with a full strength Assault marine squad and been ground down to almost nothing before winning the combat. Without the presence of plenty of power weapons/fists the close combat will go nowhere fast.

The other two units that I've mentioned previously can be used to zip forward and pin down/destroy enemy support units (I know they can as I've had it happen to me before). I've not even mentioned the C'tan yet but I probably won't bother as I've never seen one deployed against me.

Are Necrons great at close combat? No. Are they good in close combat? No. Are they crap in close combat? No. IMHO they come in somewhere around average. Which brings me back round to my original point that Necrons are OK in close combat. Nothing spectacular but they can hold the line very well (especialy after causing some damage from their shooting).

Kahadras

Mr_Smiley
01-01-2007, 12:54
Oh I love this one. Very very tough. Unless as I said before, you are going against an army that is good at CC and knows what their doing. Please, turbo boost right into range of my Purgation Squad with 4x Psycannons. You wont reach them first turn. Lets see. 10x Scarabs with T3 and 5+invunerable save vs. 12xS6 Psycannon shots at AP4 and no invunerables allowed.

How did I let this one slip?

1. Scarabs don't have an invulnerable save

2. Even if the scarabs get slammed at range and then die soon after in assaulting they served their purpose, you used a very deadly squad to annhilate a minor threat, well done. Because of this you have wasted a turn that should've been used to hammer my troops, or some other large threat that would be coming towards you.

3. Scarabs can deepstrike, this means I can have scarabs in charge range very quickly, and you will be faced upon which enemy to attack. The Necrons or the Scarabs.

4. You can only kill about 6 scarabs realistically, meaning you will still have to waste at least one turn bashing the remaining scarabs around, yes you will kill them, but I don't think any Necron player expects them to survive the game.

I've said the same point more than once there, but scarabs are designed to die and annoy the enemy they die in front of. By even considering to attack scarabs they've fulfilled their role, they only help Necrons in CC by giving them the option of extra wound dispersal.

William Moran
01-01-2007, 13:30
1. Scarabs get their save turned to an inv when they turbo boost.

The_Outsider
01-01-2007, 14:06
A destroyer lord charging say a tac squad with a powerfist will just get charged by another unit and squashed by both. Chaging a destroyer in alone is like charging in chaplain alone, except you've got better toughness and strength, but worse weapon skill and initiative, and attacks, doesn't matter that hes about an weak IC fighter, charging in alone to any squad, be it guard or even tau, is asking to get bogged down indefinately if not outright killed. The only races who can afford to throw single HQ models into battle are Tyranids and Chaos.
Besides, who cares if they charge you with a necron lord first turn, its 500 points all to get a low quality CC character into battles he can't win.

A destroyer lord with warscythe has other uses than to kill infantry.

Anyway, it depends how you use him, since he is T6 not much is going to kill him in CC (anything worth charging at least) minus said powerfist (which *gasp* not every marine player takes) he makes an awesome LoS blocker because of said combat.

He is pretty lethal at tank hunting with a warscythe nad is good at just general skullduggery.

Also think, how many people are going to be expecting a 1st turn charge from NECRONS?

Think outside the box.

Angelus Mortis
01-01-2007, 14:12
How did I let this one slip?

1. Scarabs don't have an invulnerable saveGood question. You do know turbo-boosted models save is invunerable? This means turboboosted models get no save at all from "ignore invunerable saves". This makes Psycannon and Incinerators very, very nasty to turbo-boosted anything. Thats why I say, by all means Turbo boost whatever you want, it wont get any saves vs. Daemonhunters.


2. Even if the scarabs get slammed at range and then die soon after in assaulting they served their purpose, you used a very deadly squad to annhilate a minor threat, well done. Because of this you have wasted a turn that should've been used to hammer my troops, or some other large threat that would be coming towards you.One turn of fire and possible one assault from a unit that specializes in CC and carries heavy weapons that can be fire as assault weapons to wipe out a unit is hardly a waste. Its not even a speed bump. First turn is usually walking towards the enemy and doing nothing anyway, so any kills is icing on the cake.


3. Scarabs can deepstrike, this means I can have scarabs in charge range very quickly, and you will be faced upon which enemy to attack. The Necrons or the Scarabs.Every ranged weapon in the DH list is AP5 or better and theres always a minimum of half a dozen Psycannons. S6 Assault3 weapons make short work of Scarabs(see instakill rule).


4. You can only kill about 6 scarabs realistically, meaning you will still have to waste at least one turn bashing the remaining scarabs around, yes you will kill them, but I don't think any Necron player expects them to survive the game.That is true, it will take a turn to do this, but as I pointed out earlier, first turn they arent doing anything but moving forward anyway, so its hardly wasted its bonus.


I've said the same point more than once there, but scarabs are designed to die and annoy the enemy they die in front of. By even considering to attack scarabs they've fulfilled their role, they only help Necrons in CC by giving them the option of extra wound dispersal.I agreed, thats what their supposed to do. But I hardly think any Necron player buys them expecting them to only last first turn.


When I turn up at my club and ask if anyone is up for a game? When I turn up at a GW store and ask some random guy for a game?Granted. But honestly, how often is that? I know about 90&#37; of the people at the store I play at. I know all my buddies in my group that play at our houses. I know exactly what armies they have(including the guys that frequent the store). How many random people come into a GW store out of the blue from bum freaked Egypt and say how about a game? One percent of one percent? So, if you dont know what your facing, then you must have randomly pulled it out of a hat. Regardless, if a list is good at CC, then why would he not take the things that are going to munch Necrons? Any list that is good a CC, by default, is full of units that munch Necrons. Its like not taking any shooting units in a Tau list. Kind of hard to do and still be playing Tau.


I love it when people call a tactical discusion a 'silly game'. Why would I want to charge your GK Grandmaster? Now that's silly. Better off to go after that Devestator squad or IG heavy weapon squad or Tau crisis suit squad etc. Going after your oponants best close combat unit with a single character is a bit stupid (unless it's a Bloodthirster). Actually, I was calling the "my unit can beat up your unit" discussion a silly game. But I understand in written communications such nuances are easily missed. My apologies. Why charge my GK Grandmaster? Well for one, hes only going to be 6-12" away from whoever you charge anyway, so regardless of whether you charge him or not, if you get into assault with one of my units your going to be formally introduced. Regardless, Purgation squads are just as good in CC as GK squads, only difference is 2 more heavy weapons.


Again why would I be stupid enough to turboboost Scarabs into range of a unit I know will slaughter them before they even have a chance to get into combat? I really don't think you get this whole 'giving your opponant credit' thing. What if I use cover? Oh look you can't shoot me I'm behind a building/wood. Going to move forward to try to get a better shot? That's all good too as it it means.Its no such thing. I give credit where credit is due. My point is, if you were foolish enough to do this, you would just lose a unit. If you dont do this, then you arent using the unit as you intended and it may as well be destroyed. Its going to be as soon as it pops it head out anyway. And yes GK are going to move forward, their an assault army. BTW, I would put the scarabs behind cover not in it. Incinerators ignore invunerable and cover save, AP4 and cause extra wounds to scarabs.


A. Your going to be moving closer to my lines (therefore more of my weapons are within range to shoot at you).Granted. And this is the real crux of fighting Necrons. Because they do shoot better than DH. Which again, is my point. Necrons are a shooty army not an assault army. They arent bottom of the list but they live next door.


B. Your going to be wasting a lot of psycannon fire on what, is ultimatly, a distraction.One round of psycanon fire when they normally wouldnt be firing because nothing is in range is hardly a waste. And one unit would do it.


At the end of the day the Necrons can pull some nice tricks out of the bag IMHO. OK they're not as awesome as armies that are geared towards close combat (but that's blindingly obvious anyway). Even so they are by no means 'crap'.Ive been saying this all along. Sure they have some neat tricks, but a wary player will make short work of one trick ponies. Let me give you an example of how you can determine if they are indeed as good as you think at CC. Take any other army list, and kit them out as best they can be for CC. Kit out your Necrons as best they can be for CC. What I mean is, take only 2 min size units of Warriors and eveything else CC. Do that with any other list and fight a CC game. I will bet you 9 times out of 10, Necrons will lose to every army out there except IG and Tau and the IG will be pretty close.


Their warriors are as tough as marines and has a 50/50 chance of getting back up after you've killed them. I've hit a squad of Necron warriors with a full strength Assault marine squad and been ground down to almost nothing before winning the combat. Without the presence of plenty of power weapons/fists the close combat will go nowhere fast. Someone stated this earlier. What kind of guy plays Marines and doesnt have plenty of power weapons?:wtf: Sure you may have taken out that Assault Squad that one time, but try that vs. me. I know how to play Marines. I garauntee it wont go that way.


Are Necrons great at close combat? No. Are they good in close combat? No. Are they crap in close combat? No. IMHO they come in somewhere around average. Which brings me back round to my original point that Necrons are OK in close combat. Nothing spectacular but they can hold the line very well (especialy after causing some damage from their shooting).
We will just have to agree to disagree then. I have never lost a game to Necrons with Daemonhunters. It has always been at best(for the Necrons) a 4th turn phase out. Its not because Im some awesome player or he was a noob, it is just because of the odds of a list great at CC vs one that sucks at CC.



Actually, technically, the Lord is a separate unit in CC and may not even be attached to the Wraith squad in the first place. Therefore, would there have to be 2 SA checks instead of just 1?This also leaves him vunerable to being singled out as an IC.


C'tan. I've used the Deceiver to wade through 3 GK termie squads and annihilate the Grand Master. "But he has a force weapon!" you may say. He hits on 4s, wounds on 6s and I get a 4+ invul. He strikes simultaneously. I hit on 4s, wound on 2s, no save, one hit kill. I've had my Deceiver take down a flyrant and 2 tricked out fexes in a single game, mostly at the same time. I've only lost it twice, once when my opponent got a lucky Gift of Chaos (fired twice in one turn. >.<) and when I had about 2000 pts of combined Tau and IG Stormtroopers fire at it in a single turn.

First, hes a special character and I havent said anything about special characters.

Second, you only get one. So one Force Weapon hit and hes a done deal.

Third, your trying to tell us that he went through in one game, GK GM and 3x GK Termie squads? Come on guy, I know hes tough, but this is either bad rolls, a poor player who doesnt know his list, or exaggeration. I lean towards the latter. I can tell you that he wouldnt last more than 2 rounds vs. a GK GM and his retinue. You know that GK Termies can have Thunderhammers right? Thats a lot of 50/50 saves to make. That would be(given average rolls) 6 Thunder hammer wounds to save against at 50/50. This puts him at say 3 wounds if he rolls average again. This took into account him killing 2 Termies before they could hit with average rolls. End of first assualt and on to second, he will go simultaneous next round and take another 3 wounds on average for 2 more Termies dead on the next assault phase. So by average rolling, The Deciever would last one round in CC with 10x GK Termies and only take out 4 of them. I didnt even include the GK GM, and if he gets lucky and gets one single unsaved wound, the Ctan will be dead outright. So I think, while it is impressive unit, odds are its still a one trick pony and can be dealt with with basic units in the CC armies list. You cant say one special character makes the list a good CC list.

azimaith
01-01-2007, 14:41
A destroyer lord with warscythe has other uses than to kill infantry.

Anyway, it depends how you use him, since he is T6 not much is going to kill him in CC (anything worth charging at least) minus said powerfist (which *gasp* not every marine player takes) he makes an awesome LoS blocker because of said combat.

Enough marine players take it in my meta game to teach me not to do stupid things like sending a necron lord in alone. A single combat doesn't block much LOS unless your opponent makes some sort of deployment travesty.



He is pretty lethal at tank hunting with a warscythe nad is good at just general skullduggery.

I mean, because necrons have *such* a hard time killing tanks that we really need to send our expensive support unit to go hunt them in CC.



Also think, how many people are going to be expecting a 1st turn charge from NECRONS?

Think outside the box.
Doesn't matter whether they expect it, it matters whether its more useful than having that lord in your ranks with a res orb and veil of darkness over becoming a suboptimal suicidal single man combat unit. I think outside the box quite enough thanks, thats why I run wraithwing and even armies with pariahs based on fear.

Kahadras
01-01-2007, 15:55
Granted. But honestly, how often is that? I know about 90% of the people at the store I play at.

Sure but do you directly design an army to go up against a single player? When I go to my club I have no idea who I am going to be playing that day. I just turn up and then look for a game.


Any list that is good a CC, by default, is full of units that munch Necrons

That's not exactly true. A Gaunt heavy Tyranid army is good at cc but a full strength Necron warrior can probaly weather at least a couple of rounds of combat against them. Same for most other armies that don't contain lots of powerfists/power weapons.


Actually, I was calling the "my unit can beat up your unit" discussion a silly game. But I understand in written communications such nuances are easily missed. My apologies. Why charge my GK Grandmaster? Well for one, hes only going to be 6-12" away from whoever you charge anyway, so regardless of whether you charge him or not, if you get into assault with one of my units your going to be formally introduced.

If it was 'my unit can beat your unit' I would just state that Necron Lords on destroyer bodies rocked in cc and just leave it at that. Instead I offered up a way of using him that could be concidered to be effective. Plus it can work in a lot of situations. If I said the Necron Lord can beat up a GK Grandmaster in close combat then that would be a 'silly game'.

Also be careful about stating that you can be within 6-12 inches of whatever I am going to charge. The Destroyer body makes the lord faster than the Grandmaster (therefore more able to out maneuver him). When setting up if the Lord gets put down first he can simply turbo boost off to the other side of the battlefiled if he is anywhere near the Grandmaster. There are also serious dangers with clumping all of your models togther on the table when the Necron can call on a Monolith.


.Its no such thing. I give credit where credit is due. My point is, if you were foolish enough to do this, you would just lose a unit. If you dont do this, then you arent using the unit as you intended and it may as well be destroyed. Its going to be as soon as it pops it head out anyway

So I turbo boost up 24 inches and hide behind a wood. Next turn I assault out 18 inches. Where am I being foolish? You can't shoot what you can't see. Even if you move around the cover your still too slow to be able to see most of the unit. Then you get charged next turn. You can move away to avoid being assaulted or hold position (if you are outside of 18 inches) agin this is forcing the unit onto the defencive without a combat having been fought.


BTW, I would put the scarabs behind cover not in it.

Read my post again (the bit you have quoted) I said behind not in.


Granted. And this is the real crux of fighting Necrons. Because they do shoot better than DH. Which again, is my point. Necrons are a shooty army not an assault army. They arent bottom of the list but they live next door.


They may be a shooty army but my point isn't that they're a good assaulty army my point is that they're OK in close combat. That doesn't mean good, that means OK.


One round of psycanon fire when they normally wouldnt be firing because nothing is in range is hardly a waste. And one unit would do it.


Seen as the Psycannon is a 36 inch range weapon I doubt other stuff would be out of range. Either you hold position and shoot at some Necron warriors (or the like) or you move and bag a few Scarab bases (then get charged next turn)


Ive been saying this all along. Sure they have some neat tricks, but a wary player will make short work of one trick ponies.

Sure they will but they'll have to invest time, points and units in doing so. All the better for the Necron IMO.


Let me give you an example of how you can determine if they are indeed as good as you think at CC. Take any other army list, and kit them out as best they can be for CC. Kit out your Necrons as best they can be for CC. What I mean is, take only 2 min size units of Warriors and eveything else CC.

Warriors are fine in close combat (as I've stated previously) so I'll take plenty of them. WS of 4, strength of 4, 3+ armour save (4+ get back up save), good gun.


Someone stated this earlier. What kind of guy plays Marines and doesnt have plenty of power weapons? Sure you may have taken out that Assault Squad that one time, but try that vs. me. I know how to play Marines. I garauntee it wont go that way.


He he he. Try rereading my post. I was playing as the Marines. Sure if you spam powerfists you can win easily but IMHO that starts smelling a bit of power gaming to me. With the resurection orb close by (which every Necron army takes) even the extra dead Necrons from the power fist will be getting back up.


I have never lost a game to Necrons with Daemonhunters.

Good for you. I've played plenty of Necron players in the past who seem to have known what they were doing. Plenty of Warriors (bouncing through the Monolith), Necron lord with resi orb. Nercron lord with destroyer body and warscythe and Scarab swarms hunting down support units.

I still reiterate my point that Necrons are OK at close combat. They don't do assault and they can't fully gear their army towards close combat but once the opponant does manage to get into hth they can hold their own. IMHO this does not make the Necrons 'crap' in close combat.

Kahadras

The_Outsider
01-01-2007, 18:05
To each their own I guess.

[Ninja edit] Since not everyone plays marines a destroyer lord does work vs other armies.

But meh, what do I know?

sugarwookie
01-01-2007, 19:32
I'd agree that they're a little weak until I get my **** handed to me by that stupid flying black sheet!!! It's hard enough killing the damned thing and when you finally do how does he repay you for your hard work? He explodes taking your men with him to C'tan Heaven, LOL!

Sekhmet
01-01-2007, 21:18
We will just have to agree to disagree then. I have never lost a game to Necrons with Daemonhunters. It has always been at best(for the Necrons) a 4th turn phase out. Its not because Im some awesome player or he was a noob, it is just because of the odds of a list great at CC vs one that sucks at CC.

That's kinda funny, I've never lost a game to daemon hunters, and I usually board them by turn 4 or 5.



This also leaves him vunerable to being singled out as an IC.

Yep. But nothing you can do about it either way, that's how the rules work.



First, hes a special character and I havent said anything about special characters.

C'tan are legal in GTs, so they should be taken into consideration imo.



Second, you only get one. So one Force Weapon hit and hes a done deal.

One force weapon hit that hits on 4s, wounds on 6s and allows an invul save, and has to pass a psychic test (better than 5/6 chance, but still a chance of failing). On the other hand the GM dies in 1 hit period, no saves. And you only get one GM.



Third, your trying to tell us that he went through in one game, GK GM and 3x GK Termie squads? Come on guy, I know hes tough, but this is either bad rolls, a poor player who doesnt know his list, or exaggeration. I lean towards the latter. I can tell you that he wouldnt last more than 2 rounds vs. a GK GM and his retinue. You know that GK Termies can have Thunderhammers right? Thats a lot of 50/50 saves to make.

I wasn't exagerating. It only takes about 2 rounds of combat to wipe out a terminator squad of 5-6. And basically no one kits out their entire GK Terminator squad with hammers/shields... at most, maybe 1. Why would anyone in an all-comers list give up all their S6 power weapon attacks at i4? Again, a GKT would hit on 4s, wound on 4s, and allow a 4+ save, but this is after the C'tan has killed 2-3 of them.

Were you assuming that someone takes 3 10 man terminator squads in 1500 pts? That'd be impressive.



That would be(given average rolls) 6 Thunder hammer wounds to save against at 50/50. This puts him at say 3 wounds if he rolls average again. This took into account him killing 2 Termies before they could hit with average rolls. End of first assualt and on to second, he will go simultaneous next round and take another 3 wounds on average for 2 more Termies dead on the next assault phase. So by average rolling, The Deciever would last one round in CC with 10x GK Termies and only take out 4 of them. I didnt even include the GK GM, and if he gets lucky and gets one single unsaved wound, the Ctan will be dead outright. So I think, while it is impressive unit, odds are its still a one trick pony and can be dealt with with basic units in the CC armies list. You cant say one special character makes the list a good CC list.
I'm not saying one special character makes the list a good CC list. I'm saying that your bolded, huge font statement, was incorrect.

But are you honestly saying that anyone fields a 10 man GKT squad ALL with thunderhammers + a GK GM in a list meant to beat other things besides a single C'tan? And you're assuming that the Necron player actually allows you to charge him with 10 thunderhammers. Remember, the Necron player could easily decide not to fight in CC in your turn, could charge the GKTs so that he can consistently wipe out the killing zone on the charge and/or kill the GM first.

Mr_Smiley
01-01-2007, 23:59
I consistently send my Warriors into CC with Terminators and Chosen Terminators and most of the time come out on top, this is all because of their hardiness, yes they are not as good as Marines in CC but they are not crap, they will challenge any CC unit of any army simply by staying alive. I have taken wounds from Daemon Princes, they will never be as good in CC as marines, but if they were, where is the fun in that?
Necrons in CC can be as good as most units because they will stay alive.
And a C'tan will eat through Terminators in seconds, try versing one.

About scarabs and invulnerable save, it was pretty late when I wrote that, my mistake.

BloodiedSword
02-01-2007, 00:38
If I was playing Necrons against a Marine list with a single hero and a bunc of small las-plas squads and some tank support, I'd make damn sure my Warrior squads reached CC as fast as possible. I'd expect them to win, too, especially with my Lord hanging nearby to ward off that Chappy or whatever.

Plus, characters actually aren't nearly as much of a threat to Warriors as power fists - their high I is wasted, they usually have a Res Orb to deal with and wounding on a 4+ is just annoying as hell.

Tulun
02-01-2007, 09:37
[QUOTE=Angelus Mortis;1183663]Ok, I know I said its my last point but I saw this and it made my eye twitch so, here goes.

How would you not know what your facing?:wtf: Heres a fine example. Not likely? What do you do? Randomly draw chits out of hat? Never seen that before.

Player 1: Hey. Up for a game?
Player 2: Sure. What list you want to use?
Player 1:Ummm...Necrons sounds fun.
Player 2: Ok. Ill grab my Daemonhunters.

Get the idea? Even if your doing a tournament, you can still be prepared for a Necron list with an all comers list, if you list is a decent CC army.



My buddy actually has about 5 armies to choose from ^_^ I have NO idea if I'll be seeing Necrons. and you can easily get oyur ass kicked if you aren't anti-necron ; ;

Captain Micha
02-01-2007, 14:40
Crons >all in cc why? thank you veil of darkness and res orb! if you think you can wipe out my warriors in cc. wait till you meet my veil equipped lord

The_Outsider
02-01-2007, 15:17
There are plenty of things that can go (literally) straight through a unit of warriors.

Veil and monolith portal are only good vs small units who aren't combat specialists or standard "troop" squads.

Captain Micha
02-01-2007, 16:10
but the veil can teleport units out that are locked in cc? how does 20 warriors die in the first round of cc? even beyond res orb?

The_Outsider
02-01-2007, 16:15
Have you not heard of, you know, sweeping advances.

Also a 20 strong unit really isn't the best unit size, a mass of 20 warriors outside of large games is just asking for trouble, you are far better off using 2 ten strong squad. its not like you are going to easily run out of troop slots.

Units that could probably destroy them (off the top of my head)

Broodlord + stealer retinue.
Possessed
BA honour guard (hell death company + chaplain)
Archon with incubi

Also note my statemant was based upon the assumption that the warrior squad is about 15 strong max.

BloodiedSword
02-01-2007, 17:34
The_Outsider - "probably" being destroyed by any of those units isn't exactly shameful. Hell, Assault Marines will get torn to shreds by a charge from any of those. Does that make Assault Marines crap in CC? (rhetorical question of course)

The fact that they (generally) are beaten by a Tactical Squad with a hidden power fist is a much more compelling argument..

The_Outsider
02-01-2007, 18:08
I never said it was. I read Captain Micha's post as if what he said was absolute (i.e 20 warriors with veil lord will never be beaten in CC).

Sekhmet
02-01-2007, 22:25
but the veil can teleport units out that are locked in cc?

Yes it can.



how does 20 warriors die in the first round of cc? even beyond res orb?

The_Outsider mostly got them. Example: Blood Angels Librarian with a 10 man Honor Guard. The Honor Guard each has 4 attacks on charge with power weapons at S5, and 3 plasma pistols in the squad. The Librarian gets a few more attacks, like 6.

Lord Humongous
02-01-2007, 23:01
Doesn't matter if its 10 guys or 20- most folks who play close combat armies know the trick to "clipping" the units they are charging, meaning most of your unit will not be engaged, meaning the assaulting unit stands a very good chance to win combat.
Then again, sweeping a warrior unit usually means you are in rapid-fire range of a LOT of shooting...

Lord Malek The Red Knight
02-01-2007, 23:22
most folks who play close combat armies know the trick to "clipping" the units they are charging, meaning most of your unit will not be engaged, meaning the assaulting unit stands a very good chance to win combat.
yeh, they win the CC, but they wont be able to Sweeping Advance (as per p43) if there is no-one left in B2B (which there wont be, if you clip the unit and kill more models than you contact). the Crons will either run or Pile In (to be Veil'd/'ported way next turn) leaving you in the open.

best bet, IMO, is to spread out and contact 2 'cron units simultaneously...

~ Tim

QuixotesGhost
02-01-2007, 23:29
Since noone has mentioned it so far, and there's a thread going on about it right now in the Tactics forums, I'll mention it.

Torrent of Fire the Powerfist! It's not a guarantee but Necrons definitely have the capability to force a check, and it's huge for them if it succeeds.

Mr_Smiley
02-01-2007, 23:47
It seems this argument could go on forever.
Necrons in my experience will not be a CC army, but they can hold their own against most semi-close combat, like tactical marines, and can outlast units which should fully beat them to death, like terminators.
No there are not as good as many other units but they are not meant to be.
Necrons will be beaten by a good close combat army, as will any other force, in the same way that a good close combat army can be beaten by a good necron force.

gorgon
03-01-2007, 14:44
I can't believe there's even an argument about this. I think some people are just getting defensive about their Necrons because they like their army, but you gotta keep it real. Necrons aren't a good CC army. They don't have a single unit with the right combination of speed and hitting power to be considered a strong assault unit.

They have two fast units (Scarabs and Wraiths) that are resilient enough to be viable counterassault units, although they lack killing power. Flayed Ones lack speed and hitting power, and not much more needs to be said there. Pariahs have lower hitting power than you'd think (due to their limited number of attacks) and lack mobility even more than FOs. The C'tan, while possessing hitting power, are slow. The Destroyer Lord, while fast, still doesn't have top-notch hitting power due to its limited number of attacks and low initiative (for an HQ). Throw in the fact that it'll get its head handed to it by other, cheaper assault-tooled HQ units, and I just don't see how you can call it a frontline assault unit either (although it may be useful in other ways).

Necron players do have ways of avoiding CC, countercharging on their terms, etc. But that's another argument. I'm not going to say Necrons are the worst CC army, but I'm having trouble coming up with armies that are obviously inferior. Tau are generally poor, but Kroot are at least a solid unit. And even IG have a solid countercharge unit in Rough Riders. Overall, I think it's probably fairest just to lump Necrons with IG and Tau as among the armies that should generally seek to avoid CC.

gitburna
03-01-2007, 16:15
I have mixed experiences with necrons in assault.

Necron Lords with Phylacterys/phase shifters/destroyer bodies/res orbs are great for killing by attrition.

Necron warriors when charged are rubbish.The low initiative and single attack really does hurt. I've been charged by dire avengers [those well known close combat experts] and lost an attrition battle that i thought i'd win, all because i'd be 1-2 models down each time before i go to strike.

Its a pity that the necron list almost straightjackets you into taking all the same choices [ie all destroyers] for your fast attack slots because Wraiths are great. Ive found that having a couple of them in a combat involving my normal warriors tipped the balance considerably, they were acting like sergeants and providing me with the kills necessary to break and win the enemy instead of vice versa.

Tomb Spyders are also great, the big shame is that production of scarab swarms [allowing you to have a massive tarpit with one or two high strength attacks thrown in] reduces the spyders own toughness. Ive thrown them in against all comers before now in counterattack situations and have to say theyve performed pretty admirably, all those extra wounds plus a monstrous creature can swing combats fast.

I try and use a small squad of pariahs nearby [for the Ld 7 rule] for times like this where they pay for themselves by forcing fall backs on elite enemy units via the tarpit, rather than any particular killiness of their own. Generally speaking i dont mind losing one or two so long as they're there when it comes time for the enemy to take morale checks!

So summing up for me then, necrons in assault is mostly about damage limitation and counterattacking

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 16:22
Face guard with crons before you complain.
As Hard to kill as Marines AND then half of you get back up again.
Remember, other than I2 (which is more than made up for by WBB) you are still marine hard, and marines are awesome in melee, even without upgrades. Hit hard and ignore reprisals

John Vaughan
03-01-2007, 18:24
Even through I play Necrons, I have to say that the only thing(s) that have any CC potential has to be the lord. S5, T5, I4 (!!!I4!!!) ignores saves (and invul, if you have scythe). Plus phylactery, phase shifter, res orb, what else could you want. If you are a CC bully, go for the gaze of flame. I cant complain at all about the lords (except when I fail WWB rolls. Arrgh!).

Sekhmet
03-01-2007, 22:07
Even through I play Necrons, I have to say that the only thing(s) that have any CC potential has to be the lord. S5, T5, I4 (!!!I4!!!) ignores saves (and invul, if you have scythe). Plus phylactery, phase shifter, res orb, what else could you want. If you are a CC bully, go for the gaze of flame. I cant complain at all about the lords (except when I fail WWB rolls. Arrgh!).

Lords need more WS, more I, more A. They're ~200 pts, they should show it.

Mr_Smiley
04-01-2007, 00:08
I can't believe there's even an argument about this. I think some people are just getting defensive about their Necrons because they like their army, but you gotta keep it real. Necrons aren't a good CC army. They don't have a single unit with the right combination of speed and hitting power to be considered a strong assault unit.

I don't think any Necron player has said that Necrons are a good CC force, I'm pretty sure we are all saying that they don't suck at CC.

John Vaughan
08-01-2007, 18:45
They can hold their own for a while. Only for a while...Especially with Pariah support (though they lack WWB and any other necron plus')