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broxus
02-01-2007, 23:05
Does anyone else feel that the Space Marine HQ retinue choices suck? It really stinks that you cant make a bike, Assault Marine, or Assault Terminator Squad as a retinue. It just seems that leaders would want to be in the middle of the fight and have the greatest mobility possible to command and control their units. Not to mention some of the skills that you can take such as furious charge on normal terminators that always strike initiative 1 seems stupid. Is there a trait or something I can take to change the horrible choices i get for retinues?

Any thoughts?

Angelus Mortis
02-01-2007, 23:07
Well, I for one wish you could at least have them all with Jump Packs. My entire list is all Bikes and Assault Marines. I usually have to attach lone HQ to Assault Squads. I would really like to be able to have a real Command Squad w/packs.

BTW: Isn't CSM generaly read as Chaos Space Marines?

TCUTTER
02-01-2007, 23:14
yes it is, but if you want that kind of force wait til the blood angels codex, nodoubt they will have them

Sir_Turalyon
02-01-2007, 23:15
Any thoughts?


Just take no retinue and put HQ into Assault / Bike / Asault Terminators squad. These squads are rare specialists, assigned where and when they are needed, not bound to every officer with lightning claw retinue syndrome.

azimaith
02-01-2007, 23:17
Does anyone else feel that the Space Marine HQ retinue choices suck? It really stinks that you cant make a bike, Assault Marine, or Assault Terminator Squad as a retinue.

SM commanders are all independent characters. Just give them a jump pack/bike/terminator armor/whatever and just attach them to whatever the hell squad you want. Why even bother with a retinue thats even more restricting than just attaching.



It just seems that leaders would want to be in the middle of the fight and have the greatest mobility possible to command and control their units. Not to mention some of the skills that you can take such as furious charge on normal terminators that always strike initiative 1 seems stupid. Is there a trait or something I can take to change the horrible choices i get for retinues?

Any thoughts?
Not that I know of. Just attach them to whatever squad you want, thats why they get options like jump packs and bikes.

Mr_Smiley
02-01-2007, 23:19
The retinue should be able to take whatever movement wargear the leader has, it makes sense really, I guess it was just an oversight by GW and they haven't bothered to fix it.
Then again it could be a balancing rule, but then you'd think you would take away the option of giving HQ units bonus movement wargear as soon as they are part of a command squad

Sir_Turalyon
02-01-2007, 23:29
It is a balancing rule. As for HQ taking retinue and jetpack/bike - he can take it but is slowed down by retinue, retinue cant board a transport and equipment can be properly used only if retinue is destroyed. It's players points to waste.

Light of the Emperor
02-01-2007, 23:42
I think its a balancing rule too, in terms of making the list not too dominating over other armies. Space marines already have a lot of advantages...from units to upgrades...probably more so than any other force. They need to have some weaknesses somewhere and if that means they can't all ride bikes in an HQ then so be it.
Please, do not think I am attacking anything. I just want to point out that marines have enough selections/stuff already. And where are the Dark Eldar? :rolleyes:

broxus
02-01-2007, 23:55
Well as stated before retinues are more restricting why cant we get a good one?

Angelus Mortis
03-01-2007, 00:00
Just take no retinue and put HQ into Assault / Bike / Asault Terminators squad. These squads are rare specialists, assigned where and when they are needed, not bound to every officer with lightning claw retinue syndrome.The point hes making is reasonable. For example, my list uses traits that give me Assaults as Elites and FA and Bikes as Elites/FA/Troops. So, seeing as how apparently they have some huge farms growing jump pack/bike trees, I think they can spare a few for a Command Squad.


SM commanders are all independent characters. Just give them a jump pack/bike/terminator armor/whatever and just attach them to whatever the hell squad you want. Why even bother with a retinue thats even more restricting than just attaching.
Ummm...a lot more power weapons maybe? Perhaps Terminator Honors? Lots of reasons to do it, and just because you cant detach them, doesnt mean its more restricting.

Heres a sort of ad-hoc work around. You can take a 5 man retinue with Termie Honors, take all the specialists and vet sergeant. They all have access to bike and jump packs except one guy. Then just remove him as your first casualty. Viola! Instant retinue, albiet a retarded way to get it.

adreal
03-01-2007, 00:10
hmmm
you want a Jump Pack retinue-Blood Angels
you want a Bike retinue-Ravenwing(Dark Angels)
you want a Termie retinue-Deathwing(Dark Angels)

Solves your problems right there doesn't it?

Angelus Mortis
03-01-2007, 00:16
hmmm
you want a Jump Pack retinue-Blood Angels
you want a Bike retinue-Ravenwing(Dark Angels)
you want a Termie retinue-Deathwing(Dark Angels)

Solves your problems right there doesn't it?Sure it does. Well unless you dont want to play Blood Angels or Dark Angels.

CrazyHeeb
03-01-2007, 00:20
I read this as Chaos Space Marines as well. I was thinking, "What? Daemon Prince isn't good enough for you?"

Whenever I've seen Codex: Space Marines abbreviated, there's always been the colon; "C:SM".

Angelus Mortis
03-01-2007, 00:23
I read this as Chaos Space Marines as well. I was thinking, "What? Daemon Prince isn't good enough for you?"

Whenever I've seen Codex: Space Marines abbreviated, there's always been the colon; "C:SM".Lol! Thats what I said too. Perhaps it was a clever roose to get more people to view the thread?:evilgrin:

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 00:31
Any HQ which can do the follow:

A: Make your entire army Ld 10
B: Make your best assault unit reroll its attack on the charge
C: Make an entire guard army run away in one turn

Is obviously crappy.

xibo
03-01-2007, 00:31
CSM Retuine can be both _bikers_ and _raptors_, or chivalry, if you like that better, by simply upgrading everyone to Aspiring Champions and giving each 'demonic speed/steed/flight'. I dunno about Imperial SM, but I guess there is the option for at least the first both for those.

broxus
03-01-2007, 01:26
Yea I left out the colon my bad on the title.

Not saying that the characters suck just saying the retinue choices really blow! Slow and overpriced to give them some mobility.

Zedric
03-01-2007, 01:35
Perhaps you should try out the 'options' on a non-MEQ HQ choice and then we can discuss what your Codex lacks.

GodofWarTx
03-01-2007, 02:48
Sure it does. Well unless you dont want to play Blood Angels or Dark Angels.

well, i want leman russ tanks and tau crisis suits, but i dont want to play tau or IG.



See the problem here?

broxus
03-01-2007, 03:24
well, i want leman russ tanks and tau crisis suits, but i dont want to play tau or IG.

No dont see your issues. The main reason I wish that the codex had more options is simply because of reserve rolls. Its simply silly the way they work currently. My land raider crusader/HQ/Assault termies have to roll 3 times in order to come onto the table which is nearly always impossible. That is really the only disadvantage of not having a unit as a retinue. If they did something like allow you to roll seperatly for each unit and bring all 3 on the same turn that would be ok.

Example
Player rolls for his Crusader/Assault Terminators/ and Chaplain to come in on turn 2. He rolls a 1/4/4 respectivly. Instead of being forced to place his Chaplain and Termies on the table he should have the option to still hold them in reserve until the crusader comes into play possibly the next turn. This should be declared before the game so it cant be abused. It also makes sense because well the chaplain isnt going to stand around and wait for his transport he will come into battle with it.

This should also go for units in drop pods and deepstriking.

InquisitorNiels
03-01-2007, 03:44
Well for CSM, that is Chaos Space Marines you can make all your chosen Asp Champs, then give them all bikes, flight, or speed/mount if you really want to. It will cost you points, and will limit what else they can take but like I said if you really, really really want to, you can. Unless I am over looking some sort of rule.

The Dude
03-01-2007, 05:11
This is something I have often wondered about myself and am trying to solve, at least in a limited capacity in the Rules Development forum where I have been nutting out a re-worked traits system incorporating an expanded armoury and all new Battle Honours.

Check it out over here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60286)for more details (plug,plug). All comments and feedback welcome.

insectum7
03-01-2007, 05:50
I dunno really, I think that the 'realtive' lack of retinue options were left out so as to better represent the Codex oriented space marines. This also means that there is more room to make the other named chapters more different. Like if you want bikes you can play revenwing, if you want assult retinues you can get blood angels, if you want assault terminators you can use space wolves or deathwing or whatever...

I was really pleased to see how differently the Black Templars fight compared to the more standard space marines, so I think that it is both 'fluffy' and good for the game that the Codex marines arent able to do everything.

The Dude
03-01-2007, 06:03
I think it's fair enough that the Space Marine Codex shouldn't allow the really extreame things available to specific chapters like the Blood Angels Death Company and the Dark Angels Ravenwing detachments, but a specialist retinue should be avaliable to specifically traited Marines. This should of course severely limit their other options, but it should toatally be do-able.

execution of all things
03-01-2007, 07:19
Sure it does. Well unless you dont want to play Blood Angels or Dark Angels.

It still does. You don't have to play DA or BA to use their codex. Just use their codex and create your own chapter using those rules.

TzarNikolai
03-01-2007, 10:00
better yet, why not throw everything into a drop pod or something?

every SM HQ has something very good about it.
masters make your entire army LD10 meaning they won't run away or screw up their target priority
chaplains reroll all attacks from the squad on the charge
librarians have some of the most horrifying powers i've ever seen and can shut down enemy psychics.

sure you won't get the squad mincing machine that is the daemon prince, but he doesn't help his army at all, he's just another unit that kills things. and as for a retinue, they're not all that. kitting them out with flight/cavalry makes them stupidly expensive.

SMs get a great deal with their HQ, but people will always look at the greener grass on the other side...

Angelus Mortis
03-01-2007, 10:46
It still does. You don't have to play DA or BA to use their codex. Just use their codex and create your own chapter using those rules.
Ok then. Explain how I get Bikes as Troops/FA/Elites and Assault Squads as Elites/FA and still get the retinue? You cant. Thats why the guy is upset. As has already been stated, Chaos can already and has been able to do it for some time. So to me, thats not really a balancing issue at all. Its an oversight.

Great Harlequin
03-01-2007, 11:25
Huh?

Space Marine Commanders - awesome leadership everywhere for absolutely everything. Target Priority, last man standing, pinning checks, you name it. Great for an infantry force.

Chaplain - re-roll hits on charge (even against Skimmers), give him a Bike or a Jump Pack, go cause havoc with that free Power Weapon and 4+ invulnerable save. Hell, give him a Powerfist as his second weapon for some choice!

Librarian - Fury of the Ancients folks! Devestating. See those Crisis units hugging those trees? Pop! They're gonna be staying right where they are this turn! Force sword takes down MC's with ease!

Perhaps they can't take out the mightiest of Daemon Princes or a Hive Tyrant (depending on weapon options), but they're very points efficient and play an essential role in any SM army.

Sir_Turalyon
03-01-2007, 11:27
Explain how I get Bikes as Troops/FA/Elites and Assault Squads as Elites/FA and still get the retinue?


You take one of your six bike / assault squads, put HQ in and name it your retinue, and be happy with it. Unless by "retinue" you mean "assault squad with two special weapons, multiple power weapons and terminator honours" - in that case answer is still game balance. Chaos can field such a squad - on the paper - but it can't take special / heavy weapons or specialists like apothecary, and cheapest possible jumppack retinue model costs about 40 points with no weapons or equipmnet - which is a price prohibitive enough to make such unit useless.

Balancing a SM retinue would be a hell of tweaking and playtesting (which options can be combined with movement equipment to not make uber unit of doom) and, knowing GW, there would be loophole left fot powergamers to abuse anyway. So, instead of risking exploitable loophole, or making upgrade expansive enough to compensate for abuses - so that that no one would use it anyway (25 points per jump pack, 40 for bike would do the trick) they just left the can of worms closed.

Scanno
03-01-2007, 11:39
Think Sir_Turalyon summed it up here.
Where in the background of a codex chapter does it mention bike or assault squad retinues? (don't anybody say white scars or ravenwing, they're special) If you really really want them, there are options that can give you up to 9 bike squads or 6 assault squads in your army, surely one could be handed over to a commander.
No marine army should need a 400pt retinue of dooom like chaos are able to take if they really want, they're supposed to be about combined arms with a healthy balance of hacky forces and support forces. If you want an extreme, one of the non codex chapters should sort you out.

azimaith
03-01-2007, 11:40
Ummm...a lot more power weapons maybe? Perhaps Terminator Honors? Lots of reasons to do it, and just because you cant detach them, doesnt mean its more restricting.

Theres a *reason* why your not allowed to do it, and its not because space marines are hard up on power weapons. The last thing we need is an uber assault space marine powerweapon company thats not terminators. Its like complaining that my genestealers can't take wings to fly with my tyrant.



Heres a sort of ad-hoc work around. You can take a 5 man retinue with Termie Honors, take all the specialists and vet sergeant. They all have access to bike and jump packs except one guy. Then just remove him as your first casualty. Viola! Instant retinue, albiet a retarded way to get it.
Or you can take a 5 man retinue of marine bikes and stop whining that you can't get umpteen million power weapons in a squad that can turbo boost 24" a turn. A veteran sergeant and IC is good enough.

Captain Micha
03-01-2007, 13:17
No, don't give the smurfs something else to make them even more cookie cutter to csm. the retinue is one of the few things the choas people have that really make them different.

And as everyone else says non codex chapters.

Kriegsherr
03-01-2007, 15:24
Does anyone else feel that the Space Marine HQ retinue choices suck? It really stinks that you cant make a bike, Assault Marine, or Assault Terminator Squad as a retinue. It just seems that leaders would want to be in the middle of the fight and have the greatest mobility possible to command and control their units. Not to mention some of the skills that you can take such as furious charge on normal terminators that always strike initiative 1 seems stupid. Is there a trait or something I can take to change the horrible choices i get for retinues?

Any thoughts?

What? You CAN make an all bike / all jump pack / all lightning claws retinue without probs.... they just have to be upgraded to asp champions. It gets very very expensive very fast, but mixed with normal chosen such a retinue can be a real pain in the ass for the opponent. An all asp champion retinue on the other hand is very expensive, And Ive never tried it (even though I was tempted to try the chosen of slannesh on bike combo)

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 15:30
No, don't give the smurfs something else to make them even more cookie cutter to csm. the retinue is one of the few things the choas people have that really make them different.

And as everyone else says non codex chapters.

Except Daemons, Defilers, Marks of Chaos, Princes, access to Imperial Guard stuff, cult Marines, and things of that general nature?

Daemon king Mad Dog
03-01-2007, 15:36
Broxus! You have disgraced the name of Chaos! CSM = Chaos Space Marines

*Fumes*

Any way, yesi od, but then i think SM suck...:chrome:

hiveminion
03-01-2007, 15:39
You can always use a "house rule" if your opponent (hate that word) agrees. Just allow the entire Command Squad access to the armoury if they have Terminator Honours.

It makes for a hellishly expensive squad that'll never earn its points back but hey, if you want to...

broxus
03-01-2007, 18:04
You can always use a "house rule" if your opponent (hate that word) agrees. Just allow the entire Command Squad access to the armoury if they have Terminator Honours.

It makes for a hellishly expensive squad that'll never earn its points back but hey, if you want to...

Thats what I hate and wish they would change. Give me a Assault Marine, Assault Terminators, or Bike squad option as a HQ GW!!!! I dont want to have to ask for house rules or pay some ungodly price for them. Make it a trait if need be I dont care. If not change the reserve rule like I posted earlier Im tired of having my Chaplain standing around a few turns waiting for his LRC and Assault Terminators to come onto the table. Its dumb and unrealistic.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 18:05
Marines already have almost everything from almost every other Codex. Why do you want more?

marv335
03-01-2007, 18:51
the reason (as stated by Graham McNeil when i asked him at games day 05) you can't have these all singing al dancing retinues is that the designers wanted to keep certain things to make certain chapters unique.
blood angels will get the jump pack retinues, ravenwing will get the bike retinues, and i daresay deathwing will get assault terminator retinues.
it's the way it is.
learn to deal without excessive whining.

jfrazell
03-01-2007, 18:55
I don’t understand your issue.
You already have the option by using DA or BA rules.
You can drop pod/teleport in currently
You can launch them along in a landraider

Really, this sounds like sad whining. “Someone else has it so I want it too!” If you don’t like the cornucopia of options marines have in this regard just use the chaos rules or even better-

Suck it up a little.

hiveminion
03-01-2007, 19:05
Oi, guys, keep it nice! No need for flaming. I can understand that some people'd like to see Biker Command Squads, because it looks cool or fits their tactics.
It's not whining, it's more confusion. Why do some chapters have it and some don't? The explanation has already been given, but I can understand some amazement.
It only sounds like whining when you make it sound like it.

jfrazell
03-01-2007, 19:19
no it really is whining. Thats someone wanting everything and annoyed that another list has something they don't have, even though they have it.

Here's a similar argument. My Slaanesh cult list does not have access to four heavy support choices. Thats not fair. IW have it, why can't I?

hiveminion
03-01-2007, 19:23
Becuase you have no good background reason why you should, while IW have.

For Marines, this is less clear, that's why the real reason is to keep the army lists different enough.

devolutionary
03-01-2007, 19:25
It's quite simple - despite the thoughts of some Marine players (and Eldar for that matter), you can't have everything. Typically commanders do NOT fly ahead of the rest of the army, nor do they act as the front assault unit. Commanders lead their men, the bulk of which will be on foot or in transports, so your commander should do the same. That is from a purely fluff perspective. It may not be the most effective on the battlefield, but whoop de doo.

jfrazell
03-01-2007, 19:26
And there's no background reason for marine comanders to have jump pack escorts. In fact the notion of these units in ravenwing/whitescars/ravenguard/DA lists (current or former Astartes lists), as special units denote that they are not codex normal.

hiveminion
03-01-2007, 19:32
That's what I meant, to keep the lists different. Remember that not all Space Marines follow the Codex Astartes, so I can understand why people want these Command Squads.
Mind you I'm not trying to say this SHOULD be included in the next codex, I agree that Marines shouldn't get everything, I just don't want people caling each other whiners and starting a flame war just for the fun of it. If you don't understand why someone asks a certain question, ignore it, or ask for an explanation in a polite way. This forum is meant for debate, not for a fight. Keep it fun for everyone.

BodhiTree
03-01-2007, 19:48
I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but there's nothing actually stopping you from converting the Assault Squad/Bike Squad retinues - but just treating them as a normal squad. Using a regular trooper to represent the Veteran Sergeant would have to do, so you would make the Company Champion the real Veteran Sergeant for his wargear. You'd just have to let your opponent know that the Standard does nothing, and the Apothecary is just there for looks.

jfrazell
03-01-2007, 20:17
Mind you I'm not trying to say this SHOULD be included in the next codex, I agree that Marines shouldn't get everything, I just don't want people caling each other whiners and starting a flame war just for the fun of it. If you don't understand why someone asks a certain question, ignore it, or ask for an explanation in a polite way. This forum is meant for debate, not for a fight. Keep it fun for everyone.

Excellent point there. I retract my statement calling him a whiner. Now wino, well thats a much larger category, possibly including myself on the weekends. :D

Phunting
03-01-2007, 20:28
And of course by adding such a thing to codex marines, that is one less unique element for the variant chapters.

PS There's no apostrophe in 'HQs' dammit!

TzarNikolai
03-01-2007, 23:51
dammit. its just not fair.
if SM should have all these amazing retinue choices then i want to be able to take my incubi as an elite choice.
and i want rending assault cannons
and 3+ saves
and better leadership
and characters that can make my opponents army run off the board
and whirlwinds
and closed topped landspeeders

and on top of all that i want to keep my wyches and my webways, my cheap warriors, my lances, my open topped vehicles with a huge charge range and...

enough is enough. SM are a different army from CSM. if you want to have a huge retinue or whatever else just use the CSM book and call your chaplain a dark apostle or something; CSM are jealous of some of the stuff you can get. every army is different and space marines should not be better than all of them at everything.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 23:57
Can I at least get a bodyguard of 10 psychers with force weapons for my Canoness?

Frodo34x
04-01-2007, 00:51
Wow. I thought it was chaos marines at first.

I''ve found a great tooling for a chaos lord is accursed crozius/strength/mutation/furious charge.

Gives him an unstoppable charge.

Angelus Mortis
04-01-2007, 02:08
You take one of your six bike / assault squads, put HQ in and name it your retinue, and be happy with it. Unless by "retinue" you mean "assault squad with two special weapons, multiple power weapons and terminator honours" - in that case answer is still game balance. Chaos can field such a squad - on the paper - but it can't take special / heavy weapons or specialists like apothecary, and cheapest possible jumppack retinue model costs about 40 points with no weapons or equipmnet - which is a price prohibitive enough to make such unit useless.Price is not the issue, its being able to take them at all. Even without the packs/bikes, retinues are expensive, so thats really a moot point. I could just take a smaller retinue with packs for the same cost. As far as Chaos is concerned, they can have a retinue of Aspiring Champions w/Demonic Flight, Furious Charge, 2xLightning Claws, etc. If this is good enough and considered balanced, then there is no reason why Space Marines should not be able to do the same. It makes absolutely no sense to allow you to field and entire army w/Jump Packs and Bikes(which is how mine is set up) and be stuck with a walking HQ. Its just plain dumb. One more squad with Jump Packs/bikes is not going to make that much of a difference balance wise, and I would like it just for uniformity/fluff alone.


Balancing a SM retinue would be a hell of tweaking and playtesting (which options can be combined with movement equipment to not make uber unit of doom) and, knowing GW, there would be loophole left fot powergamers to abuse anyway. So, instead of risking exploitable loophole, or making upgrade expansive enough to compensate for abuses - so that that no one would use it anyway (25 points per jump pack, 40 for bike would do the trick) they just left the can of worms closed.That leads me right back to my point. Chaos is about the most exploitable, open to abuse list there is. But you pay for it. If I am willing to pay for it to do it with Space Marines, then I should be able to. If they want to make it restrictive then how about attaching it to the traits that allow the Assaults as FA/Elites and trait that allows Bikes as FA/Elite?Troops? Thats to me, is very reasonable and fitting.

InquisitorNiels
04-01-2007, 02:42
Your Lord/Commander for your Sm army is unable to take a jump pack, or a bike? You means its not a piece of wargear?

broxus
04-01-2007, 02:52
It's quite simple - despite the thoughts of some Marine players (and Eldar for that matter), you can't have everything. Typically commanders do NOT fly ahead of the rest of the army, nor do they act as the front assault unit. Commanders lead their men, the bulk of which will be on foot or in transports, so your commander should do the same. That is from a purely fluff perspective. It may not be the most effective on the battlefield, but whoop de doo.

This honestly shows you dont know much about the military. Leaders are at the front most portion of the battle normally not in the back. I've been in the army for a long time know and can guarntee this.

I honestly think people lost the point of this post. I was just saying the way that reserves come onto the table needs to change OR they should give more options for HQs squads through traits/or points. I COULD put my general in an assault marine/bike squad like I currently do but its just stupid that in Alpha missions I have to bring them in seperatly This is what I dont like about the way its currently is.

To correct this entire issue all I want is the ability for me not to be forced to bring my HQ on the table alone if his assault squad didnt make the roll. Just allow me to keep him in reserve also until both units can make their reserve rolls.

HQ squads are far more restrictive than ICs joining normal squads so I really dont see the whole argument about this. I'm not asking for some new super unit or power weapons for everyone common now.

As for those who think that the C:SM is so unfair you really need to think things over. Currently Eldar and Tyranids can both out close combat and/or out shoot a marine army if they want and get some great fast HQ choices. Lets not mention the new avatar. Im not envious but lets not keep saying that space marines are unbalanced and have everything because honestly they dont and its ok.

azimaith
04-01-2007, 03:04
This honestly shows you dont know much about the military. Leaders are at the front most portion of the battle normally not in the back. I've been in the army for a long time know and can guarntee this.

To be more specific this is a rather broad stroke. Lower level leaders will lead at the of the battle and go out on patrol with troops. But as you go up the chain you get up to commanders who don't lead from the front.

You may expect to see corporals, sergeants, and lieutenants out in the front, but a Colonel or even General will spend most of his time behind lines only going out to the front of the battle lines when he needs to.

You just won't see a general going out on patrol with his troops normally.




As for those who think that the C:SM is so unfair you really need to think things over. Currently Eldar and Tyranids can both out close combat and/or out shoot a marine army if they want and get some great fast HQ choices. Lets not mention the new avatar. Im not envious but lets not keep saying that space marines are unbalanced and have everything because honestly they dont and its ok.
This is not true. My tyranids certainly can *not* outshoot marines. I can't speak for eldar, I don't play them.

Marines are supposed to be versatile, they are. They're not supposed to be the best at everything, thus armies that specialize outdo them. Thats just how it is.

broxus
04-01-2007, 03:17
To be more specific this is a rather broad stroke. Lower level leaders will lead at the of the battle and go out on patrol with troops. But as you go up the chain you get up to commanders who don't lead from the front.

You may expect to see corporals, sergeants, and lieutenants out in the front, but a Colonel or even General will spend most of his time behind lines only going out to the front of the battle lines when he needs to.

You just won't see a general going out on patrol with his troops normally..

You do have a point here I guess BUT normally a General Officer has conrol of up 24,000 soldiers in a division so its a tad bit hard for him. A space marine chapter fights in companies so the same level as a 1SG and Captain and they are in the front lines of the fight.




This is not true. My tyranids certainly can *not* outshoot marines. I can't speak for eldar, I don't play them.

Marines are supposed to be versatile, they are. They're not supposed to be the best at everything, thus armies that specialize outdo them. Thats just how it is.

I agree that SM are suppose to be middle of the road, good at everything but excel at nothing. I will disagree though about the tyranids outshooting thing. I've played against lists like the godzilla one and zanthropes that have massive shots per turn. I will say its close to a SM chapter Tyranids are more geared for CC for sure. Eldar on the otherhand OMG they can easily CC and outshoot a SM chapter if they choose to.

Im not complaining about other lists but if you read my post above you can see what I really want HQ retinue options or fix the reserve roll things currently its just silly. Think about the broodlord, winged hive tyrant, Autarchs, Phoenix Lords all can join fast units and get right in the fight. Chaplains not the kind of guys that hang around in the back they are fearless warriors that want to bring death to those who dont belive in the Imperium of Man.

azimaith
04-01-2007, 03:26
You do have a point here I guess BUT normally a General Officer has conrol of up 24,000 soldiers in a division so its a tad bit hard for him. A space marine chapter fights in companies so the same level as a 1SG and Captain and they are in the front lines of the fight.
Besides 40k is a kind of "heroic" setting where they have generals leading armies and killing enemies and so on at the front.




I agree that SM are suppose to be middle of the road, good at everything but excel at nothing. I will disagree though about the tyranids outshooting thing. I've played against lists like the godzilla one and zanthropes that have massive shots per turn. I will say its close to a SM chapter Tyranids are more geared for CC for sure. Eldar on the otherhand OMG they can easily CC and outshoot a SM chapter if they choose to.

Orks have lots of shots per turn too, doesn't necessarily mean they can outshoot shooty armies. A shooting focused marine force will have better quality, longer ranged, and more lethal shots than a shooting tooled tyranid army thanks to weapon upgrades like plasma guns and so forth.



Im not complaining about other lists but if you read my post above you can see what I really want HQ retinue options or fix the reserve roll things currently its just silly.

I always play it that the IC just comes in with whoever he is attached with. Yes they're in different FOC but I don't care, and neither do people I play with. The entire reserves system is stupid and should be set up to actually show an escalating battle rather than a stupid random chance to get whatever your army might focus on. Reserves on an armored company is just stupid the way it is for example. The Divided forces rules are *much* better because you just split your army up and part of its deployed and part of its not at the start but whose coming on and whose not is up to you, not to stupid dice rolls.



Think about the broodlord,

He has a retinue of genestealers who can't fleet, so he isn't fast nor is his retinue. If you somehow manage to lose all your stealers he could join another unit, but that would be the same as a chaplain losing his entire retinue of 6 marines and then joining a jump pack squad. And the brood lord can't even fleet anyhow so he would just slow them down.



winged hive tyrant,

Can't join a unit period. Only walking tyrants get tyrant guard.



Autarchs, Phoenix Lords all can join fast units and get right in the fight. Chaplains not the kind of guys that hang around in the back they are fearless warriors that want to bring death to those who dont belive in the Imperium of Man.
I can't speak for eldar but all tyranid units that take a retinue are walking speed, just like space marines and are stuck walking. No tyranid can join another squad without becoming slower or stuck at walking pace.

TzarNikolai
04-01-2007, 10:29
Eldar on the otherhand OMG they can easily CC and outshoot a SM chapter if they choose to.
i wouldn't say so. especially now that GW has taken their starcannons away.
eldar can either outshoot SM (debateable) or out cc SM (again, i'd question that) but they certainly can't do both at the same time (assuming both armies are as cheesy as each other and its not just a case of cheese against fluff). they can specialise to do either, in which case SM will beat them at the thing they've neglected.


Im not complaining about other lists but if you read my post above you can see what I really want HQ retinue options or fix the reserve roll things currently its just silly. Think about the broodlord, winged hive tyrant, Autarchs, Phoenix Lords all can join fast units and get right in the fight. Chaplains not the kind of guys that hang around in the back they are fearless warriors that want to bring death to those who dont belive in the Imperium of Man.
as has already been said: broodlord slows down his genestealer retinue, which is the only thing he can join. winged tyrant can't join anything, a walking tyrant can have some guard that are slow and expensive. and autarchs and phoenix lords can join a unit in the army, not buy it as a retinue. much like a jump pack chaplain can join an assault squad. *hint hint*

jfrazell
04-01-2007, 13:32
Price is not the issue, its being able to take them at all. Even without the packs/bikes, retinues are expensive, so thats really a moot point. I could just take a smaller retinue with packs for the same cost. As far as Chaos is concerned, they can have a retinue of Aspiring Champions w/Demonic Flight, Furious Charge, 2xLightning Claws, etc. If this is good enough and considered balanced, then there is no reason why Space Marines should not be able to do the same. It makes absolutely no sense to allow you to field and entire army w/Jump Packs and Bikes(which is how mine is set up) and be stuck with a walking HQ. Its just plain dumb. One more squad with Jump Packs/bikes is not going to make that much of a difference balance wise, and I would like it just for uniformity/fluff alone.
Thats game balance. You do not have all the options Chaos has, and Chaos does not have all the options you have.

If you can field an entire army with jump packs then you don't need a jump pack retinue. Just join with one of the regular squads and viola there's your retinue. Or do BA and have it nice and legal.



That leads me right back to my point. Chaos is about the most exploitable, open to abuse list there is. But you pay for it. If I am willing to pay for it to do it with Space Marines, then I should be able to. If they want to make it restrictive then how about attaching it to the traits that allow the Assaults as FA/Elites and trait that allows Bikes as FA/Elite?Troops? Thats to me, is very reasonable and fitting.

Thats the advantage of Chaos-greater customomization. If you like them them, play the Chaos list for your regular marines, they just have more deviations than the standard codex. But what it is amounting to is you want the advantages of Chaos, without giving up the advantages of marines.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 13:36
This honestly shows you dont know much about the military. Leaders are at the front most portion of the battle normally not in the back. I've been in the army for a long time know and can guarntee

When was the last time you saw a Brigadier assaulting an enemy position? Hell, when was the last time you saw a Staff Officer with a rifle in his hands, unless he was doing a APWT?

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 13:40
I will disagree though about the tyranids outshooting thing. I've played against lists like the godzilla one and zanthropes that have massive shots per turn. I will say its close to a SM chapter Tyranids are more geared for CC for sure. Eldar on the otherhand OMG they can easily CC and outshoot a SM chapter if they choose to

Show me the Eldar list that can out melee a Marine list with 60 assault marines and 60 tac marines with combat weapons.

Show me the Eldar or Tyranid list which can out shoot 6 las/plas squads and 6 devastator squads.

Kriegsherr
04-01-2007, 15:46
This honestly shows you dont know much about the military. Leaders are at the front most portion of the battle normally not in the back. I've been in the army for a long time know and can guarntee this.


Wait.... one moment! Are we talking about RL armies or Fictional ones with bolt guns and power armour? ;)

As I can tell you, I also was in the army, and I've never seen a "Leader" at the real frontline. And when they did that at early stages in their training, they most of the time got shoot down (well, you know, with las-guns... ehr I mean with las-sims ;)) very quickly as every "opposing force" soldier was aiming for the leader first. The sheer amount of uproar this move causes in the platoon was enough most of the time to pin down the whole platoon for some minutes until a seargent could take over. Sure, the officer had a deputy, but he most of time got also shot down as he was with him in his command squad.

I myself was a seargent, and I learned (first the hard way and then from one of the military teachers), that "leading from the front" means beeing near the front, but having enough distance (and maybe even soldiers) between yourself and the enemy so you can't get easely shot down. The job of a leader is to keep the big picture, LEAD and don't let yourself get involved into actual fighting as you can't really LEAD if you're fighting. Not even elite-soldier leaders can do this, they might be able to switch from leading to fighting back and forth and quite quickly, but even they need to have a "fight-free" moment to lead their soldiers.





I honestly think people lost the point of this post. I was just saying the way that reserves come onto the table needs to change OR they should give more options for HQs squads through traits/or points. I COULD put my general in an assault marine/bike squad like I currently do but its just stupid that in Alpha missions I have to bring them in seperatly This is what I dont like about the way its currently is.


Hmmm... well... its connected to what I said earlier. I like it more if a leader does what he does in RL: LEADING troops, not fighting. But granted, its a fictional fantasy universe where magicians battle battery-powered-armour wearing supermen with mini-rocket-launchers, so I don't see why not. Its just, is it really such a problem? Or just a small bother? We all have our little complaints about some codices.





To correct this entire issue all I want is the ability for me not to be forced to bring my HQ on the table alone if his assault squad didnt make the roll. Just allow me to keep him in reserve also until both units can make their reserve rolls.

HQ squads are far more restrictive than ICs joining normal squads so I really dont see the whole argument about this. I'm not asking for some new super unit or power weapons for everyone common now.

As for those who think that the C:SM is so unfair you really need to think things over. Currently Eldar and Tyranids can both out close combat and/or out shoot a marine army if they want and get some great fast HQ choices. Lets not mention the new avatar. Im not envious but lets not keep saying that space marines are unbalanced and have everything because honestly they dont and its ok.


This is more of an fluff issue than everything else. Maybe the IC shouldn't be able to take equipment his retinue can't take? Because he will normally always have a retinue with him (in fluff at least)?

hiveminion
04-01-2007, 16:13
Ha! I can picture the minister of defense with a rifle, occasionally throwing a grenade and killing people at the "front line":D .
I agree, 40k is not comparable with the "real world". In 40k, it isn't a college boy with a degree on defensive issues who is the army commander, it is the most powerful, experienced and skilled soldier.

Sceleris
04-01-2007, 16:29
Have some slight problem seeing really what the whole gripe is.

You can tailor up a v nasty SM hero and stick him with a hard as nails squad (assault termies, bikers, assault troops etc) with the only down side possibly being reserves/deployment, or you can tailor up a nasty SM hero and give him a retinue (which can still be made pretty killy).

Jackster
04-01-2007, 16:36
CSM? I thought you are talking Chaos?
it would be quite unfair if SM can make all their units honor guard, so why cant chaos make Raptors or Havocs Chosen? Why cant Eldar make their aspect warriors retinue? Why cant IG make storm troopers their command squad?
Just give him a termie armor/jump pack/bike and tell the fool to join a squad of your choosing.
And Space Marines have no real life equivalents, thus you cant comparing them to real life military.

Ghal Maraz
04-01-2007, 16:50
Why cant Eldar make their aspect warriors retinue?

Or even better, why can't Autarchs HAVE retinues?

And I'm not complaining, I accept that.

Sir_Turalyon
04-01-2007, 17:39
There are two approaches to warfare and being a leader in 40k (and in real life) - "soldier" and "warrior".

Warrior leader (Chaos Space Marine, Ork, Dark Eldar, sometimes Tyranid) is all about gathering most powerful warriors around him and geting stuck in. His subbordinates fight by excellent personal skill and provess as well.

Soldier leader (Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Eldar) is about commanding and coordinating his troops, and bolstering them personnaly where and wnen course of battle requires. His soldiers fight by being excellent in teamwork, disciplined and having efficient chain of command rather then by having personal combat skills.

Space Marines may be feriocious, but they are still soldiers - disciplined, fighting by the doctrine, every soldier knowing his specialisation and role in battle plan. Chaos Marines may have experience as soldiers, and their commanders may know their stuff, but they abandoned most of discipline millenia ago. Their units are personal retinues of individual Aspiring Champions rather then squads forming part of company, all gathered around a more powerful champion. Chaos and organisation don't mix well. There is no point in trying to command psychopatic warriors in military style, even less point for military commander to abandon his commnad post and go do some killing with elite assault unit. So, chaos and Marine retinues differ, as their playing style does.

Same applies to Guard leaders having "bodyguard" of communications officer and standard bearer rather then five to ten Ogryns or stormtroopers, Farseer having unit of warlocks, most of them assigned to lead guardian squads, rather then some "exarch council", Ork warboss leading by example with Nobs bodyguard or Dark Eldar leader with incubi, helping him kill stuff and protecting him from his own army. These just are most effective ways of leading these armies in the fluff.

Zerosoul
04-01-2007, 18:02
Show me the Eldar list that can out melee a Marine list with 60 assault marines and 60 tac marines with combat weapons.

Show me the Eldar or Tyranid list which can out shoot 6 las/plas squads and 6 devastator squads.

Well, since you're talking essentially infinite points...

Melee -

Avatar of Khaine

Farseer w/ Fortune, Doom, Spirit Stones

Harlequins * 10
Harlequin's Kiss * 9
Fusion Pistol * 2
Shadowseer
Troupe Master w/ Power Weapon

Harlequins * 10
Fusion Pistol * 2
Harlequin's Kiss * 9

Shadowseer
Troupe Master w/ Power Weapon

Harlequins * 10
Harlequin's Kiss * 9
Fusion Pistol * 2

Shadowseer
Troupe Master w/ Power Weapon

Dire Avengers * 10
Exarch w/ Power Weapon/Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend
Wave Serpent w/ Twin-linked Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

Dire Avengers * 10
Exarch w/ Power Weapon/Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend
Wave Serpent w/ Twin-linked Brightlance, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

Dire Avengers * 10
Exarch w/ Power Weapon/Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend
Wave Serpent w/ Twin-linked Brightlance, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

Guardians * 10, Scatter Laser platform, Warlock w/ Conceal

Guardians * 10, Scatter Laser platform, Warlock w/Conceal

Wraithguard * 10, Warlock w/ Conceal

Warp Spiders * 10
Exarch w/ Dual Death Spinners, Powerbrlades Withdraw, Surprise Assault

Warp Spiders * 10
Exarch w/ Dual Death Spinners, Powerblades, Withdraw, Surprise Assault

Swooping Hawks * 6
Exarch w/ Hawk's Talon, Intercept, Skyleap

Fire Prism w/ Shuriken Cannon, Holofields, Vectored Engines, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism w/ Shuriken Cannon, Holofields, Vectored Engines, Spirit Stones

Wraithlord w/ Starcannon/EML/Dual Flamers

Outmelees that Marine list with ease. What prize do I win?

Shooting:

Farseer w/ Doom, Fortune, Guide, Spirit Stones, Runes of Warding

Avatar of Khaine

Fire Dragons * 10
Wave Serpent w/ twin-linked Brightlances, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines

Fire Dragons * 10
Wave Serpent w/ twin-linked Eldar Missle Launcher, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines

Harlequins * 10
Harlequin's Kiss * 9
Shadowseer
Troupe Master w/ Power Weapon

Dire Avengers * 10
Exarch w/ Power Weapon/Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend
Wave Serpent w/ Twin-linked Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

Dire Avengers * 10
Exarch w/ Power Weapon/Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend
Wave Serpent w/ Twin-linked Brightlance, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

Pathfinders * 10

Pathfinders * 10

Pathfinders * 10

Warp Spiders * 10
Exarch w/ Dual Death Spinners, Powerbrlades Withdraw, Surprise Assault

Warp Spiders * 10
Exarch w/ Dual Death Spinners, Powerblades, Withdraw, Surprise Assault

Swooping Hawks * 6
Exarch w/ Hawk's Talon, Intercept, Skyleap

Fire Prism w/ Shuriken Cannon, Holofields, Vectored Engines, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism w/ Shuriken Cannon, Holofields, Vectored Engines, Spirit Stones

Vibrocannon Support Battery * 3

Outshoots that Marine list. Do I get a better prize?

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 18:10
I'd love to see the battle between those two forces, but my money is still on the marines and the same points level.

Fallen Angel
04-01-2007, 18:31
On the original topic, its always a bad thing that cant take those retinues. Ok if you're deepstriking its not that good as you cant attach beforehand but without deepstriking, you can just join the IC to whatever unit you want as a retinue. And then leave if you want to. Which normal retinues doesnt give you the option to do.

Ghal Maraz
04-01-2007, 23:09
Problem is: this topic is pure whining about something one army doesn't have.
Marines have lots of things, but clearly can't and SHOULDN'T have everything.

It's just quite simply as that.

Grand Master Raziel
04-01-2007, 23:26
Can I at least get a bodyguard of 10 psychers with force weapons for my Canoness?

You seem to be referring to Codex: Daemonhunters here - Grey Knights to be specific. However, it also seems to me that you don't actually own that book (or haven't read it recently), because you're making a mistake I've seen before: taking the name "Nemesis Force Weapons" too literally. I play this army, so I figured I'd clarify for you. I grant you that NFWs are way better than wet noodles, but they vary in power depending on who is using them. Only the NFW of a Grey Knight Grand Master is actually a force weapon - a Strength 6 force weapon, mind you, but it's the only NFW that can do that force weapon instakill thing. The NFWs of Grey Knight Terminators are S6 power weapons (which still doesn't suck), and then the NFWs of power armored GK squads are simply S6 CCWs, except for the squad's Justicar - his is like the GK Termies' weapon. As for being psykers - only characters with access to the Daemonhunters armory can buy psychic powers. GK Terminator squads may also buy the Holocaust psychic power as a squad upgrade, but the squad can only cast it once per turn, not once per Terminator per turn.

As for the original topic, I actually think that the SM Command Squad is a pretty good unit all by itself. In addition to what you can give the Veteran Sergeant, you can take a pair of heavy or assault weapons (I'd usually go with the assault weapons), plus you can take the specialists, giving you an extra power weapon if you want it, plus it gets access to Veteran Skills. That, Broxus, is way better than a kick in the ass. The only really significant criticism I can think of is that the Command Squad is too similar to the Veteran Squad in terms of squad upgrades and options. However, when I have to choose between the two, I generally choose the Command Squad, because I can have the Command Squad and ICs as one unit that comes in from Reserve (when applicable) at the same time. I get one less hidden power fist, but on the other hand I don't have to give up the squad's assault weapons.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 23:28
I was actually refering to a Seer Council. ;) Maybe I could call it my Witch Commity. :p

Grand Master Raziel
05-01-2007, 21:28
My bad. Your use of the term "force weapon" is what threw me. Next time you're obliquely referring to a Witch Committee, refer to their Witchblades as "magic whacking sticks" and I'll get it. ;)

Shrike30
05-01-2007, 23:51
I was under the impression that any SM command team member that you spent the extra points on for Terminator Honors had armory access, too (meaning you could buy everyone in the command team a bike or whatever and be fine). It's just the Specialists?

BodhiTree
06-01-2007, 00:14
I was under the impression that any SM command team member that you spent the extra points on for Terminator Honors had armory access, too (meaning you could buy everyone in the command team a bike or whatever and be fine). It's just the Specialists? Yeah, only the Veteran Sergeant, Apothecary, Standard Bearer and Company Champion have access, the problem is that a Command Squad must be at least the Sergeant and 4 other Marines.

Shrike30
06-01-2007, 00:22
Figures. Guess it's a good thing I play SW's, then :p

butchyboy73
06-01-2007, 01:25
Hi, can you clarify a couple of points for me, as I am fairly new to 40K? If a HQ (IC and Command Squad) pay for a transport and are in reserve, they all role seperately to enter play? Surely that's not right as they are all together in the transport travelling to the battle.
Also, I thought that the act of roling for each unit to enter the battle was to give a sense of the reserves moving forward and possibly encountering difficulty reaching the battle field (difficult terrain, vehicle breakdown, indirect fire etc).

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 01:27
A IC and his command squad count as a single unit. The IC is no longer an IC until his squad dies. So yes, they all roll together.

intellectawe
06-01-2007, 05:51
Sure it does. Well unless you dont want to play Blood Angels or Dark Angels.

And what would be so hard about using the rules for blood angels or dark angels, painting them to look like ultramarines, and calling them an ultramarines off-shoot?

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 05:55
Ultramarines with Black Rage? :p Need some serious fluffery to work that one in. :P

slasher
06-01-2007, 06:14
And what would be so hard about using the rules for blood angels or dark angels, painting them to look like ultramarines, and calling them an ultramarines off-shoot?

And why should a 'feral' bike SM army such as the White Scars be running round in the same ordered manor as the Raven wing?

BodhiTree
06-01-2007, 06:24
And why should a 'feral' bike SM army such as the White Scars be running round in the same ordered manor as the Raven wing? Because combining Be As Swift As The Wind and Trust Your Battle-Brothers makes no sense? I'm not even sure how the second trait falls into the White Scars' background - and denying them transports boggles my mind as well. Just giving them the first trait and a minor disadvantage would have made more sense.

slasher
06-01-2007, 06:50
True, but then thats not the point I was making. The point was that Raven Wing rules don't add up for White Scars.

The Issue with the current set up for White Scars is another issue

intellectawe
06-01-2007, 14:20
Who said anything about mixing traits?

Listen to this. Its simple. Paint your marines to look like whatever you want, then use the rules from whatever book you want. Viola! Now you have your HQ with whatever bodyguard he needs.

Why is this so hard to grasp? Oh, I know, because the newer players lack imagination and the ability to have fun.

marv335
06-01-2007, 18:29
the problem you may encounter with this ^^^ method is that in tournament play you'll run into wysiwyg problems

hiveminion
06-01-2007, 18:32
Yes I don't think it'll work with chapters that, in codex:SM, already have their traits. I mean, you can't paint your models like Raven Guard and then use the traits for Imperial Fists...But you can paint a home-brewn chapter ALMOST the same colour scheme as the Raven Guard and still use the traits for Imps, I think you'd be allowed to do that in a tournament.

As for friendly games, well, anything goes IMO.

intellectawe
07-01-2007, 21:09
And for tournament play. There is no law about painting schemes. Someone post one here ONE GT that has a guideline about how an army should be painted besides the basic 3 colors that has anything to do with what I said.

Buy a box of marines, paint them however you want since they are your models, and use any codex you want for them.

I never heard of a box with a label that reads "Models inside MUST be used as Ultramarine Models"

I have been using marines for many years. Sometimes as Dark angels, then one time as Ultramarines, then another time as Blood Angels. I just called them my own chapter and bam, everything is fine. Never had an issue at any GT or non GT tourney with them.

I guess if someone paint necrons pink, green and gold, they can't be called Necrons right?

Chimera
07-01-2007, 21:26
I guess if someone paint necrons pink, green and gold, they can't be called Necrons right?

They can be called Necrons... it's the person who painted them that way I'd be worried about. Imagine if they won a GT... pics in WD... :eek:

Anyway... I actually agree with the OP. The Space Marines retinue has pretty rubbish options. I think it's basically there as a points sink in case you're playing a really big game and you filled up your Force Organisation Chart.

Getting around the problem is easy, though, as has been said before: Just give your Almighty Leader whatever you want, keep him Independent, and then just run around with whatever unit you like once you're on the battlefield.

The only real difference will be in an Escalating scenario, when the commander will invariably arrive on his own on turn 2, and promptly take a fatal lascannon fusillade in the head.

Rioghan Murchadha
08-01-2007, 01:00
Escalation poses problems for everyone.. I faced of my Guard against a WitchHunter force that actually outnumbered me the other day.. Got to deploy everything but my Russ, and Demolisher since it was all infantry and sentinels. Both tanks failed the first reserve roll, his Exorcist comes on right away. By the time my tanks rolled onto the board, my infantry was either dead, or on the verge of being assaulted by Seraphim and Celestians. and the Russ got popped right away by an AP1 Exorcist missile.

The moral is, reserves rules suck if you roll badly ;)

(It didn't help that my HQ heavy weapon (Missile team) got stuck in a grudge match with a Retributor squad, and ended up hitting a tree 4 turns in a row (hit with the rocket all 4 times, (krak missile), wounded the sister, she made her cover save every single time.. 5+ for being in a forest). Finally killed her, but by then it was a little too late :D

Chimera
08-01-2007, 01:36
(It didn't help that my HQ heavy weapon (Missile team) got stuck in a grudge match with a Retributor squad, and ended up hitting a tree 4 turns in a row (hit with the rocket all 4 times, (krak missile), wounded the sister, she made her cover save every single time.. 5+ for being in a forest). Finally killed her, but by then it was a little too late :D

Hate that. Personally if I was standing behind a tree I wouldn't expect to survive a direct hit from an anti-tank missile 1/3 of the time.

Perhaps we should ditch all this ceramite and adamantium armour and kit everyone out with a couple of wooden planks. Trees survive so much better than, say, Predators.