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Major King
03-01-2007, 13:03
I've been spending quite a lot of time recently poring over old Epic books (Space Marine & Epic 40,000) and comparing it with the current Armageddon book. And, after playing a few games at Epic with my Imperial Guard (Emperor protect the 18th!) against a friends Ork horder, I come to the conclusion that i much enjoy the rules of the game, but i am having some problems with how much i like the army list system.

From Space Marine you could use premade detachment cards with predesigned forces on them, but i find this a little too restrictive, as with Armageddon. Whereas, with Epic 40,000, you could tailor your army how you wanted when you played points cost games. Does anyone have any suggestions for army lists for this systems which are similar in design and use to that of Epic 40,000?
That is to say you buy units individually rather than as detachments and so forth.

Its akward liking more than one version of a game when you want to play it lol.

Grimtuff
03-01-2007, 13:22
Those detatchment setups are only really for tourney play, if you want to have them emulate your 40k armies in appearance go right ahead in friendlies. It says so right in the book :)

Major King
03-01-2007, 13:39
Aye, but im looking for army lists designed for friendly play/campaign play similar to the Epic 40000 concept.

Athmos
03-01-2007, 13:42
it's probably impossible to get balanced list for E:A that would be as flexible as the E40K system.

The activation system means that you can't price a detachement only by its firepower/staying power. There is much much more to E:A armies.

On the other hand, armies can be still be quite flexible; after all, it's quite fluffy that IG or marines army structure is more rigid than tyranid or orkish one.

Anyway, if you want to play mostly campaign, scenario or any kind of friendly game, you are absolutely free to come up with whatever house ruling you really like.

Make sure to consult the specialist game and tactical command forums (where most of the experimental lists are being worked and playtested) for more about this great great game.

Athmos

Major King
03-01-2007, 13:48
Cool, will do. But if anyone has any suggestions, im willing to listen lol

Grimshawl
03-01-2007, 18:32
as was said I dont think you could completely break epic Armageddon into a points cost system for buying each model individually and assorting units into whatever formation you wanted, the activation rules and shooting restrictions alone mean that this type of complete freedom would break the system, if for example I am playing orks and I make each stand a formation I can suddenly overwhelm my opponet with blast markers from ineefective shooting and due to shooting restrictions they couldnt really kill to many of my one stand formations, the popcorn army as it were, anyway the army lists are supposed to cost units and formations in epic A as to how usefull they are in That particular army, if for example you have a force with Cheap infantry but limited expensive artillery then any additional artillery you could buy for that list would naturally cost you more than say the IG who generally have decent access to all sorts of Artillery in Epic.

orangesm
03-01-2007, 20:55
In "designing" your own formations an alright way to think about it is to design parts of a 40k army. So if you wanted a more fluid Space Marine unit that had 4 Tactical Stands and 2 Assault Stands this would make sense.

A general set of Campaign list would be a nice project to do - but some of those list are basicly done (IG for example). Those list would be more background based or based on what it took to have a formation. For example there may be a requirement that any Ork formation must have a Nob to control it and no self respecting Nob would be caught dead with less than at least 8 supporting stands of Ork Inf/LV (up to 1/2 may be Grots) or 4 AV or 4 DC or combination there of.
For a Space Marine campaign list a min and max on the number of units per formation may be appropriate. Fo an Infantry unit a min of 4 Tactical Stands with a max of 12 Tactical, 4 Devastator, 4 Assault, 4 Dreadnaughts, 3 Characters (1 Captain, 1 Chaplain, 1 Librarian), 10 Rhinos.

The thing is that unless you are playing a campaign where the units deployed are tracked then the Tourney list is appropriate for the style of game you are playing most likely. Battleforce A being 3000 pt and Battleforce B being 2000 pt will work fine wit the the Tourney list that are developped, because you are not worrying about units between games in the campaign. For a detailed campaign a chain of command list would be developed for each army, with different armies needing various command structures as already discussed, but then you can do away with points as bringing forces to bear becomes important not points.

nealhunt
03-01-2007, 21:56
Does anyone have any suggestions for army lists for this systems which are similar in design and use to that of Epic 40,000?
That is to say you buy units individually rather than as detachments and so forth.

The ork army list is quite flexible as far as formation composition as listed but the price break for larger formations means that taking a small formation and cobbling it up with add-ons isn't going to be optimal from a play-to-win standpoint.

Generally, I'd say you can break down the formations to a per-unit cost and rebuild them how you want as long as you stay pretty close to or parallel to current army formations. For example, if you wanted to play a retro SM/TL IG company where the commander rides in a Rhino instead of a chimera, just swap out the points costs and you're fine.

The problems enter in primarily due to formation size. The popcorn armies mentioned are workable and relatively balanced with the current rules but with a design-your-own system would just be silly overpowered. Similarly, certain forces like SM and Eldar are set up to have small, fragile formations and the unit cost is artificially low. If you bulk up a formation of 3 units to 4-5 the relative durability increases substantially compared to increasing a formation of 10 units to 13-15.

If you keep the general flavor of the lists and consciously avoiding min-maxing, breaking out per-unit costs would be relatively balanced. Just keep formations of "elite" formations to a small-moderate size and keep point costs for formations averaging 250+ points and it should be fine among friends.

Hena
04-01-2007, 03:26
Also units with BPs cannot be easily priced for the cost of 1. As the certain changes in whole formations BP (3 -> 4 or 7 -> 8) is more useful than others. The single priced BP unit needs to be quite expensive in case of buy as many as wanted. We noticed this when doing Tyranid list (35 points for 45cm 1BP indirect fire was needless to say way too good) as Tyranids have quite free formation structure with regards to brood units.