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Imperial Git
05-01-2007, 14:25
I know the quality of imperial halberdiers versus spearmen and swordsmen has been discussed many times on these forums, and often they have been found wanting.
That doesn't prevent me from using two (sometimes three) 25 strong blocks of 'em though (I'm a bit of a fluff player). I have found however, that maybe they should be given a special rule or something to make them more attractive for Empire players. My idea was (drum roll please):

Let them fight in two ranks! Like spears! With a +1 strength bonus!

Of course, this ability would be evened out by a points cost increase from 5pts a pop to 6pts.
This way, they would still take casualties, but they would have a chance of fighting back a bit!

Note that this isn't whining or anything (I'll still love those buggers) but it would seem an interesting option for an underused unit, and fluffwise (in accordance with artwork and text) it would even be legal!

Your thoughts on this matter, if you please!

Maren
05-01-2007, 14:51
I love it! Fluffwise correct, makes them better without breaking anyother unit...Im loving it! Go Git Go Git its ur birthday!

alenui
05-01-2007, 16:05
fluffwise correct

how do you use a halberd from a second rank?

mistformsquirrel
05-01-2007, 16:07
A halberd is actually 2 weapons in one remember. It is both a Spear (the spike on top isn't a decoration) - and a pole-axe. So the first row would fight with the axe, the second, over their shoulders in a spear-like manner I would take it.

Commodus Leitdorf
05-01-2007, 16:37
Oh jeez....We just get our new Army book and were already on the "How to fix Halberdiers"

Look, we didn't get what we want, it sucks I know. But if you want to use Halberdiers...just USE em! I do and I dont regret it, they preform very well for me as my opponents dont really appreciate how effective str4 hits can be on such cheap troops.

I know all the tactics involving Empire "your troops wont kill nothin, just get the combat res and beat them that way" and the easiest way to ensure that is to make it REALLY hard for the enemy to kill your troops. Thus the 4+ AS from swordsmen.

We didn't get Heavy armour, we cant be "skilled" enough to use our shields in combat and we didn't get an increase in WS. We just got cheaper troops and now we gotta deal.

Frankly this is better then the alternative to what I THOUGH was going to happen, lowered WS and INI for Swordsmen so that each state troop just got the bonus for there weapon combos to even them out.

So, in conclusion, love the halberd for what it is! I sure do!

IcedCrow
05-01-2007, 16:50
Agree 100% with you! Well said.

Griefbringer
05-01-2007, 16:57
And why should Empire halberdiers be better at employing halberd than Tileans, elves of Ulthuan, chaos warriors etc.?

samw
05-01-2007, 17:05
Or just give them heavy armour for the same price. Easy.

dirach.
05-01-2007, 18:00
As everybody knows, the haleberdiers are weaker than the swordsmen. Many was disapointed that the haleberdiers was not lifted to the same power level as the swordsmen. But it just struck me the other day that the problem is not the haleberdiers, it is the swordsmen. They are to good.

Humans are the template from every other race is based on. Thats why the normal human have 3 on all stats exept M and Ld. But with most players choosing swordsmen and knights, the common warrior in most empire armies have ws 4. As a human army, ws should really been 3 for common infantery.

So why do the swordsmen have ws 3? In 4/5th edition you didn't get any armour bonus for handweapons and shield. The extra ws was a boost to make the swordsmen usable and bring them to the level of the haleberdier and spearmen. The 6th edition rule of giving a armour bonus when using handweapon and shield broke this balance, and the swordmen was more powerful than the other choices.

So I see the swordsmen as more of a problem than the haleberdies.

STOP THE POWERCREEP!!! LOWER THE SWORDMENS WEAPONSKILL!!! NOW!!!

bluesky322
05-01-2007, 18:06
i have got to get some swordsmen i have played empire for years and always just used the spearmen because there what i had

Catferret
05-01-2007, 18:14
Swordsmen are overpowered. I totally agree. I play Chaos and Marauders with Hand Weapon, Light Armour and Shield are exactly the same rules wise but more expensive.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
05-01-2007, 18:37
Look, swordsmen skill aside, I was looking at the weapons special rules just the other day and said the exact same thing to my buddy. I play Bretonnians and my Men at Arms stats are quite goblin-esque. Fine, they're cheap. However, when I noticed this:

"Halberds
The halberd is a heavy bladed weapoin mounted on a sturdy shaft. The steel blade has a point like a spear as well as a heavy cutting edge like an axe. It is held in both hands and used to chop as well as thrust."

Hmm. Seems like it should be a two-rank weapon. C'mon, my Men at Arms would still be borderline retarded (WS 2), now they would just be able to realise that the pointy end of their weapon can poke people from another rank back!

Snotteef
05-01-2007, 18:49
Swordsmen are overpowered. I totally agree. I play Chaos and Marauders with Hand Weapon, Light Armour and Shield are exactly the same rules wise but more expensive.


Comparing across Army books does not make sense. Mauraders are priced right for the CHAOS army.


it is the swordsmen. They are to good[...]STOP THE POWERCREEP!!! LOWER THE SWORDMENS WEAPONSKILL!!! NOW!!!

Take an army of swordsman and tell me exactly HOW are they overpowered? While I agree that they are a more attractive choice than halberdiers, they are FAR from overpowered. How often do you hear players crying things like: "Oh no, he's got Swordsman, I'm screwed." or "With infantry like that, my Dwarves/Chaos Warriors/Orcs don't stand a chance!" :p

Honestly, let's have a little perspective here.

Commodus Leitdorf
05-01-2007, 18:55
Well...atleast the argument has shifted to Swordsmen being too good...I guess thats an improvement...

But its all comes done to one fact...its didn't happen, we just gotta deal with it now. If you wanna use Halberdiers...use em. If they suck and you would rather use swordsmen...use em. Build and play your army the way you want and let no one tell you how to do it simply because they feel something "sucks".

Makarion
05-01-2007, 18:58
As everybody knows, the haleberdiers are weaker than the swordsmen. Many was disapointed that the haleberdiers was not lifted to the same power level as the swordsmen. But it just struck me the other day that the problem is not the haleberdiers, it is the swordsmen. They are to good.

Humans are the template from every other race is based on. Thats why the normal human have 3 on all stats exept M and Ld. But with most players choosing swordsmen and knights, the common warrior in most empire armies have ws 4. As a human army, ws should really been 3 for common infantery.

So why do the swordsmen have ws 3? In 4/5th edition you didn't get any armour bonus for handweapons and shield. The extra ws was a boost to make the swordsmen usable and bring them to the level of the haleberdier and spearmen. The 6th edition rule of giving a armour bonus when using handweapon and shield broke this balance, and the swordmen was more powerful than the other choices.

So I see the swordsmen as more of a problem than the haleberdies.

STOP THE POWERCREEP!!! LOWER THE SWORDMENS WEAPONSKILL!!! NOW!!!

Although I agree in principle on the baselien stats of 3, it's effect would sadly be to force players towards:

1). All-cavalry armies, or
2). Gunline armies.

It's really not a good idea to force people too hard into cookie-cutter molds, so I'm glad it more or less stayed the way it was. Even if we can dream of heavy armour for the halberds, it's really probably better this way. Besides, with heavy armour they'd get close to replacing greatswords, which is another underused unit I believe.

Do people by the way give shields to their halberds in an attempt to provide them some protection while marching up, or do they use a screening unit?

Catferret
05-01-2007, 19:03
@ Snotteef

I do have perspective, I'm not saying they are an all conquering force. I'm saying they are too cheap for A WS4, I4, 4+ save. That's my complaint. That's all.

I will rephrase my "Overpowered" statement. They are overpowered for their low cost in an army that doesn't need more low cost units. They got a price cut for no good reason as far as I can tell. Dark Elves got a price cut for Infantry because they needed a price break on their mainstay unit. If anything should have been made cheaper in the Empire list, it should be the Halberdiers who are described in the background as being a mainstay.

And yes, Halberds should have the option to be used either as spears OR +1S weapons but there is not a lot we can do about that unfortunately.

Scythe
05-01-2007, 19:25
I agree. They should have kept swordmen at 7 points. They were a good buy at that price, even if compared to the (now) 5 point halberdiers. Halberdiers are now a good value for your points, but swordmen are still better in most cases, altough the halberdiers command models are slightly cheaper.

Petey
05-01-2007, 19:53
If the halberd had armor piercing it would be worth it's point cost

spear gets one power +1 A (effectively) cost 1pt
Halberd gets one power +1 S and one drawback 2handed with this second power they're worth 1 pt

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
05-01-2007, 21:15
I'd like to see halberds get a rule like: Fights in two ranks. The first rank makes their attacks at +1 strength; the second rank makes their attacks at their base strength (just like spears).

Thus, your troops get to use both parts of their weapon. The first rank uses the axe blade, the second rank uses the spear blade. Simple and easy, and will make them a more viable, while keeping them from being over-priced/powered. They would retain their WS of 3, and their light armor. Spears deployed five wide with shields get 10 WS3 S3 attacks and a 5+ armor save for 6 points. Halberds deployed five wide would get five WS3 S4 attacks, five WS3 S3 attacks, and a 6+ save, for 6 points (raise their price a point per model). What do you guys think of that? I think it's fair, fluffy, and makes halberdiers more useful on the table-top.
Cheers.

Commodus Leitdorf
05-01-2007, 21:50
Killing power is not the issue with Halberdiers, the issue is survivability. Halberdiers, for the same cost as swordsmen have a 5+ AS vs shooting. But in CC Swordsmen get 4+ save while Halberdiers are stuck with a 6+ save.

The basic strategy with Empire troops is this, You get into combat whether by charging or being charged, the detachment moves in and hits the enemies flank. Now its straight Combat resolution...with cheap troops your most likely gonna outnumber, with big units you've probably weathered the enemy shooting and have your 3+ ranks, with your standard you got abase combat res of 5.

The detachment will negate the enemies rank bonus and give the bonus for flank charges, so you have a difference of 1 (the enemies banner if he has one) to 6 (your ranks outnumber, banner and flank bonus.

So now all you got to do is ensure the enemy doesn't kill 5 of your guys to even things up. Now tell me, who has a better chance of surviving, Swordsmen or Halberdiers?

Manflayer
05-01-2007, 22:24
Ive always use halberdiers for detachments, As a unit I find its too weak and swordsmen is my top unit I take. But halberdiers are very handy to cover flank and kill the T4 opponents such as orcs, chaos warriors and saurus warriors. If its T3 opponents I prefer free company because the attacks are plentiful and slightly cheaper though they dont have armour.

dirach.
05-01-2007, 22:38
Take an army of swordsman and tell me exactly HOW are they overpowered? While I agree that they are a more attractive choice than halberdiers, they are FAR from overpowered. How often do you hear players crying things like: "Oh no, he's got Swordsman, I'm screwed." or "With infantry like that, my Dwarves/Chaos Warriors/Orcs don't stand a chance!" :p

Honestly, let's have a little perspective here.

They are not overpowered compared to other races, that is why you don't hear any complain. But they are overpowered compared to the haleberdiers and spearmen.

The standard human is WS 3 and I 3. By making standard infantery WS4 and I4, and this is the most used troop, the standard human have in reality been creeping in power.

dirach.
05-01-2007, 22:44
Although I agree in principle on the baselien stats of 3, it's effect would sadly be to force players towards:

1). All-cavalry armies, or
2). Gunline armies.


I don't fear this. I think those who like the image of an infantary army will still use them. Armies are not only choosen by the power of each troop. If this was the chase, everyone would choose the same army and the same troops, but this is not the chase. people still choose the "weak" armies, and "weak" units are still being sold. I have always been using my haleberdiers as parent unit, because I like them.

zak
05-01-2007, 23:29
I'd like to see halberds get a rule like: Fights in two ranks. The first rank makes their attacks at +1 strength; the second rank makes their attacks at their base strength (just like spears).

I was thinking the exact same prior to reading this post. I think it fits well with the Empire background and players would be willing to pay the extra point for this ability. The swordsman at present is just too good to leave out either as a detachment or parent unit.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
06-01-2007, 00:38
Agreed, zak. A big part of the problem with halberdiers is that they don't have a high enough kill power:survivability ratio. If the kill ratio gets higher, the fact that they have less armor becomes less of an issue.
Cheers.

Petey
06-01-2007, 01:09
I agree with zak and henry, in fact in 3rd edition warhammer, you were allowed to strike with all your Halberds in the front rank, and half from the second rank, at strength +1.
I advocated armor piercing as the additional rule the weapon needs because i don't feel we ll get these great older rules back. But time will tell.

BenK
06-01-2007, 11:59
I agree that Empire Halberdiers should be base humans with halberds and no special rules; if empire infantry can't be standard, then nothing is standard. On the other hand, even if swordsmen were raised to 7pts, or lowered to ws and i3 (as much as I use them as the mainstay of my army I admit core Empire inf. should be baseline, and the hand weapon and shield special rule makes them attractive without the need for extra stats), halberds just don't add enough to ws3 troops to make them competitive with spears or 4+ saves.

Perhaps spears could lose the 'requires two hands' rule and halberds could gain 'fight in two ranks', with the first rank getting +1S? Greek Hoplites used massive spears in conjunction with large shields didn't they?

p.s. I think the swordsmen/maurauders price discrepancy is due to the fact that the Empire book is a generation younger than Hordes of Chaos.

Corrupt
06-01-2007, 12:10
I don't even play empire and I can tell something is up.
They should all have the same statline (with ws and I3) and cost
And choice of equipment

Spears (Extra attacks)
Halberds (Harder hitting attacks)
Sword/Shield (Harder to kill)
Is this agreed by empire players or am I just insane?

Btw I love the look of halbadiers and made 10 yesterday along with buying the empire army book :)

Imperial Git
06-01-2007, 12:31
The 'front rank +1S, second rank S3' sounds like a great compromis to me, one of my regular opponents suggested the same thing the other day. Maybe I can persuade him to let me use this rule for one battle, and if it isn't too powerful, it could become a custom rule.

I do hope that halberdiers get something of an upgrade in the next edition, because it saddens me that this very appropriate Empire unit is somewhat underused by a lot of Imperial gamers; time will indeed tell.

Well, off to paint another 25 halberdiers! Cheers!

Griefbringer
06-01-2007, 12:41
Perhaps spears could lose the 'requires two hands' rule

How could they lose a rule they never had in the first place?

fearchanges
06-01-2007, 15:40
I always use Halberdiers as detachment units of 10 next to my 2 blocks of spearmen and swordmen. it works fine to me and thank god they got cheaper with the new empire book.

Dr Death
06-01-2007, 17:29
There are several solutions to the halberd problem and all the natural ones have already been voiced. The really important thing matter is that something is done, made official, placed in the ruleset for everyone to use. I also beleive, being something of a closet fluff-monkey that Halberdiers should not simply be 'equally tempting' as swordsmen or spearmen but the defacto choice of state troop but im sure a rule such as Fredric Henry's (alongside putting swordsmen back in their place) will do that.

Dr Death

Corrupt
06-01-2007, 18:16
The 'front rank +1S, second rank S3' sounds like a great compromis to me, one of my regular opponents suggested the same thing the other day. Maybe I can persuade him to let me use this rule for one battle, and if it isn't too powerful, it could become a custom rule.


Hm.
Why take spears? If I take halberds I get spears and Str 4 front rank hits...

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
06-01-2007, 20:10
Because spears in two ranks five men wide would get 10 s3 attacks and a 5+ save, with a shield, at 6 points each. Halberds deployed the same way would get 5 s4 attacks, and 5 s3 attacks, while only retaining a 6+ save, at 6 points each. So in essence, you're trading a point of armor save for half of your attacks being at +1 strength. They seem pretty equal to me; it becomes a matter of what you want your troops to do- not "whichever one is the only viable option." Not as many people take halberdiers because they're not as viable as the other two options. If you make all three options equally potent, then it's a choice. As it is now, there's no reason not to take swordsmen (who need to at least drop their I4 to I3, if not their ws4).
Hope that answers your question.
Cheers.

superczhunk
06-01-2007, 20:29
This is how I use the troops:

Parent Units:
*Swordsmen, Spearmen, Greatswords

Detachments:
*Halberdiers, Greatswords, Free Companies.

It suck they're not more equal, but the increase in power of the detachments' rules makes up for it. The more survivable units are the parents, the more 'killy' units are the detachments.

Steel_Legion
06-01-2007, 21:12
front page of the army book i believe, they fight in 2 ranks! they also appear to be dying (sp) horribly.. but hey...

Chiron
06-01-2007, 22:35
This is how I use the troops:

Parent Units:
*Swordsmen, Spearmen, Greatswords

Detachments:
*Halberdiers, Greatswords, Free Companies.

It suck they're not more equal, but the increase in power of the detachments' rules makes up for it. The more survivable units are the parents, the more 'killy' units are the detachments.

Greatsword detachments?

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
07-01-2007, 21:15
Greatsword detachments?

Haha, it's called "interpretative rules reading."

Seriously though, can't do it. Greatswords are exclusively parent units. Oh! But what if they could be? I would do it every time.
Cheers.

Kidjal
07-01-2007, 21:44
Remembering the old empire book, the +1 strength (unless using shields thing) seemed fair and fluff accurate. I find the combat res. solution mentioned by commodus works well enough. I also give them the war banner as the ancestral heirloom, giving me a basic 6 for CR before kills.

To be honest though, I've never played with swordsmen..

BenK
07-01-2007, 22:19
I quite like the "Frederik-Henry" solution. It does make Halberds overall more effective in close combat than a spear+shield, although this would be mitigated somewhat by increased vulnerability to missile fire. Still, as has been pointed out the halberd should be the natural choice for state melee troops.

Neknoh
07-01-2007, 22:30
That's what we should do, make Hallberds a no-brainer for Chaos Warriors

Honestly, I pay 3 points a model for +1 attack
I would rather pay 2 points a model for +1 strength AND 1 basic attack extra from the guy behind him

BenK
08-01-2007, 07:17
Obviously if you changed the rules for the weapon you'd need to change the points values troops had to pay for them.

I had to sit and think long and hard about that one, I did.

Scythe
08-01-2007, 15:36
Because spears in two ranks five men wide would get 10 s3 attacks and a 5+ save, with a shield, at 6 points each. Halberds deployed the same way would get 5 s4 attacks, and 5 s3 attacks, while only retaining a 6+ save, at 6 points each. So in essence, you're trading a point of armor save for half of your attacks being at +1 strength. They seem pretty equal to me; it becomes a matter of what you want your troops to do- not "whichever one is the only viable option." Not as many people take halberdiers because they're not as viable as the other two options. If you make all three options equally potent, then it's a choice. As it is now, there's no reason not to take swordsmen (who need to at least drop their I4 to I3, if not their ws4).
Hope that answers your question.
Cheers.

You could just as well leave the shields home on halberdiers then. Then its 5 points halberdiers, with 6 S4 (unit champion) and 5 S3 versus 6 point spearmen with 11 S3 attacks. The only advantage the spearmen have is the extra save. Hardly word paying 20% more for.

alpha_dude
08-01-2007, 15:38
@ Snotteef

I do have perspective, I'm not saying they are an all conquering force. I'm saying they are too cheap for A WS4, I4, 4+ save. That's my complaint. That's all.



excuse my ignorance, but how do they have a 4+ save??

Makarion
08-01-2007, 15:41
Hand weapon and shield grants +1 save on top of shield alone, in close combat only. With light armour that's 5+ saves versus missiles, 4+ versus melee.

alpha_dude
08-01-2007, 15:50
Hand weapon and shield grants +1 save on top of shield alone, in close combat only. With light armour that's 5+ saves versus missiles, 4+ versus melee.

ahh right thanks

i been out of the game too long...

Commodus Leitdorf
08-01-2007, 16:11
All this talk still doesn't change the fact that the Halberd changes didn't happen. Any talk of special rules for halberds isn't gonna happen, and if it will, we gotta wait till the next edition which is gonna be in...well...awhile.

All halberdiers needed was a better save to be comparable to swordsmen and spearmen. Taking away the shield option and giving them heavy armor would have done that...it didn't happen. Frankly even if we did get it we would STILL be talking about how swordmens are still the better option because they still have a 4+ save in CC and have a higher INT and WS allowing them to die less, thus allowing for a better chance at favorable combat res.

Use whatever State troop floats your boat, regardless of the reasons. Whether there fluffy, effective or just plain look cool. It doesn't matter, but the "I like Halberdiers but im not gunna use em cause there not as good as swordsmen" arguement has gotten old. If you really wanted to use em, you would, no questions asked.

Arhalien
08-01-2007, 16:38
I;'ve jsut noticed that swordsmen have higher initiative than inner circle knights. What's that about?

alpha_dude
08-01-2007, 17:06
I;'ve jsut noticed that swordsmen have higher initiative than inner circle knights. What's that about?

do they also still have a higher initiaive than greatswords, the supposed greatest of the state troops?

Arhalien
08-01-2007, 17:14
I don;t know, i didn;pt lok at that on the us page reference sheet.

master of chaos
08-01-2007, 17:34
it would be nice if halberds fought in 2 ranks, my stormvermin would be a whole lot better.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
09-01-2007, 05:01
Maybe just Empire halberds would get my proposed special rules? It could be part of their state troop training. Now, before people start stating the obvious "why should only the empire get that?" let me say this; the Empire get detatchments, showing their level of cooperative training. If they can do that, fluff-wise, they can be trained to fight with halberds in two ranks for the special rule (first rank S4, second rank S3, 6 pts per model) that I proposed. And, to address the people telling us to stop whining, think more that we are proposing rules to be tested and used at home. Just because GW made the game doesn't mean you can't change it up a little bit for additional fun in home games.
Cheers.

loveless
09-01-2007, 06:15
right - the Empire could get "Halberds fight in 2 ranks"

I don't hear people demanding that their spearmen get "fight in 3 ranks"

the rules for weapons can and occasionally are race-specific due to training and skill

it'd make Halberdiers cool(er), but I prefer the look of swordsmen - though it would be nice for all the choices to be semi-equal *nods*

Petey
09-01-2007, 15:51
The other solution to all this is to simply make swords cost a point. Hand weapon in warhammer could be anything, table leg to well crafted dwarf ax. Perhaps this is what needs to change. Because lets be honest, without the extra armor save in CC the swordsmen are perfectly reasonably costed. The problem lies in the fact that hand weapons have a free bonus.
Historically (yes i know i m using a bad word) spears should be free (effectively) and swords should cost a point (representing cost in tech, mats, and craftsmanship).
Hell, you could even make it an upgrade only some units could get, upgrade hand weapon to mass weapon (like mace or hammer) for armor piercing or to swords giving +1AS in CC. Have it cost a point per model and we re done.
Each one; Upgraded handweapon, spear, or halberd would be more reasonable to one another (even if the spear is the best of the bunch by a small margin)

mikec_81
09-01-2007, 18:44
A lot of heavy infantry, not just common halberds suffer from this problem because Halberds just plain suck. You lose 2 points of armor save for a crappy +1S. Who the hell would make that tradeoff?? It should have been fixed in 7th edition basic rules.

zak
09-01-2007, 18:58
There is absolutely no way I would take halberds on my Chaos Warriors. The shield option is far better and cheaper. Heavy armour alone is not enough to save my 15 point + models. My Black Guard also suffer the same problem. At 16 points a 5+ save is flimsy!
The halberd at present is not just a second option for Empire, it also a second option for many other armies.

Warlord_Grotsnik
09-05-2007, 06:03
I'd like to see halberds get a rule like: Fights in two ranks. The first rank makes their attacks at +1 strength; the second rank makes their attacks at their base strength (just like spears).

Thus, your troops get to use both parts of their weapon. The first rank uses the axe blade, the second rank uses the spear blade. Simple and easy, and will make them a more viable, while keeping them from being over-priced/powered. They would retain their WS of 3, and their light armor. Spears deployed five wide with shields get 10 WS3 S3 attacks and a 5+ armor save for 6 points. Halberds deployed five wide would get five WS3 S4 attacks, five WS3 S3 attacks, and a 6+ save, for 6 points (raise their price a point per model). What do you guys think of that? I think it's fair, fluffy, and makes halberdiers more useful on the table-top.
Cheers.

This is probably the most intelligent idea to fix them, but of coarse....trying telling these people who think swordsman are overpowered. :rolleyes:

Sanjuro
09-05-2007, 11:22
Or just give them heavy armour for the same price. Easy.

This is the fix to rule all fixes.

All these special rules are destroying the game. Pretty soon, it will be the rules in the BRB that are 'special' in the sense that only a small minority of the troops in Warhammer actually abide by them.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
09-05-2007, 16:23
The idea is ok, but they work fine as they are at the moment, plus I dont think it's a good idea to have two special rules on one weapon

Caligula
09-05-2007, 20:36
Hmmm, this is kind of strange to me. I play Empire, and have no complaints whatsoever in regards to Halberds. They do what they're supposed to do, in my mind, and +1S is something that comes in handy for me quite often. Sure, Spearmen and Swordsmen make for better parent units, but a detachment of Halberdiers is a beautiful thing.

ChaosTicket
10-05-2007, 01:43
Halberdiers are made to work expertly with handgunners and detachments. Swordsmen are a no-nonsense unit that can combo, or standalone. Halberdiers are good with detachments even if they are not so good solo.

Because swordsmen are better alone and the fact that missle regiments are just for assisitance and even more so as detachments, I just skip halberdiers, handgunners, and deatchments.

Caligula
10-05-2007, 03:11
Not to go too OT, but are you saying you don't use halberdiers, handgunners, or detachments? At all?

Warlord_Grotsnik
10-05-2007, 03:41
What is so wrong with Halberdiers getting an extra special rule? They are useless as parent units and need to be fixed pronto.

Caligula
10-05-2007, 03:57
I wouldn't go so far as to say they're absolutely useless as parent units, just that there are other units that fulfill that role more efficiently. Come on, say you bit the bullet and made a parent unit of 20 Halberdiers, accompanied by a Warrior Priest, and given a detachment of 10 Swordsmen. While not the most efficient arrangement, it's far, far from useless.

Halberdiers can work just fine as parent units if you want them too, without having some special rule attached to them. It's just that Swordsmen and Spearmen tend to make for better parent units, and Halberdiers make for great detachments.

ChaosTicket
10-05-2007, 04:13
I hate detachements and the like. Empire soldiers are for defense. Spearmen and swordsmen are great because even with pathetic stats they can be good. Halberdiers have lower armor, and everythiny so can't really do damage.

Halberdiers are a prime example of when shooting does work. They can't take any amount of shooting, even from skaven slaves. They can't take any melee hits either. Spearmen have a decent defense and many attacks. Swordsmen are heavily armored for melee combat. They can survive melee and ranged combat so your stronged units can work, but halberdiers will break quickly.

Halberds are pole weapons. They are heavy, unwieldy and require two hands to use. Using a shield with them is impossible in combat. Really it's why use them when Great weapons and heavy armor is so much better.

I tried Lobbying upgrades to the halberdiers back on the GW forums, but no one took them. It's apparent that they were, are, and always will be a bad unit choice.

Caligula
10-05-2007, 04:59
Once again, I'm forced to disagree with much of what you've said, although I fully get and acknowledge what you're saying.

See, the main difference in thinking here is that I don't see Empire core infantry units as simply defensive. If I did see them as useful for only that role, I'd probably agree with you, and seeing as that's you're opinion of them and how you'd use them, you're right. In your case, Halberdiers make absolutely no sense to take. Defensively they just aren't that great, especially when compared to Spearmen and Swordsmen, both of which are better defensively for their own reasons. So yeah, in terms of being a purely defensive unit, Halberdiers are pretty much crap compared to the myriad other choices available.

The problem I have in accepting the notion that Halberdiers are useless as they are now is that I don't see them, or any of the core infantry units, as purely defensive. I'm of a different mindset, I suppose, and definately do NOT think that Empire soldiers are meant only for defense.

Are blocks of Empire infantry good on the defense? Yeah, most definately! At least in many cases they certainly are. Does that mean that's their only, or even best function. Well no, not to me by any means. I LOVE my Imperial infantry, and think very highly of its' abilities, both defensively AND offensively. There we go, very sorry to say so much simply to say I use empire soldiery in an offensive role, just as often as a defensive one.

There are definately better units out there, even in the Empire army list, more suited to offensive actions. Sure enough you could use your core infantry in a purely defensive role and let the more elite units like Greatswords and Knights do the offensive work...yup, that'd be just fine.

The point I'm getting at though is that Empire core infantry is fully capable of going on the offensive as well, even if only in support of a more highly regarded melee unit. Blocks of State Troops, WHATEVER THEY ARE, be it Swordsmen, Spearmen, or even Halberdiers, are fully capable of going offensive. Not only are they capable, but they're efficient, numerous, and surprisingly dependable. Backed up by their detachments and supported by each other, these core infantry blocks will even pull out some wins. Yes, even a block of Halberdiers can do it;)

Seriously, if you skip all my rambling above, just try and see Empire core infantry as something more than a purely defensive block. It's a tough, dependable, easily supported unit that's capable of doing pretty much whatever you need it to in any given situation. Don't underestimate or undervalue them, they're great.

That said, use them however you want to:) The above is just me typing and rambling, trying to sound smart.

I'm off to start building a nice big block of 25 Halberdiers...

Scythe
10-05-2007, 08:52
Halberdiers are a prime example of when shooting does work. They can't take any amount of shooting, even from skaven slaves. They can't take any melee hits either. Spearmen have a decent defense and many attacks. Swordsmen are heavily armored for melee combat. They can survive melee and ranged combat so your stronged units can work, but halberdiers will break quickly.


That's why halberdiers are 1 point cheaper. May not look like much, but is still 20% of the model cost. They also get a slightly cheaper command group compared to swordsmen.

Not to praise halberiers too much, they aren't that great, but they are the cheapest way of getting +5 static combat resolution with state troops.