PDA

View Full Version : Codex: Chaos



Pages : [1] 2 3

ChrisLS
05-01-2007, 18:21
I haven't seen a thread specifically focusing on the Chaos rumors floating around, so I figured I'd get one started so we can compile the rumors floating around. Apologies if this is viewed as bad form.

What I've heard is this (from someone who visited the studio a couple months back): The next 40K codex after C: DA is going to be Chaos. It will focus on general Chaos (Undivided) and allow Lost and the Damned style armies. It will specifically not include devotees of the various gods as those are planned to come further down the road a la Marine chapter specific codices. The release date is around late summer/early fall of 07. I think most of this has already been posted.

What other rumors are out there about Chaos?

For my part of the discussion, I think this makes a lot of sense. The current Chaos codex, while groundbreaking at the time, is an absolute mess (almost Chaotic even) with too many printings with different wordings floating around. It also suffers from what I'd call the "one page army varient" disease, where characterful armies are represented on a single page with little thought to game balance and are way too easily abused or are grossly underpowered. I'd specifically point to Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons as examples of this. It would also eliminate another Eye of Terror list that could now be represented with a current codex (perhaps that is why the SWs are rumored to be before BA?). All in all, good thing, though in ignorance of what is going on with the Ork plastics I'd prefer to see Codex: Orks first.

superknijn
05-01-2007, 18:33
Most of this is old, although I'm pretty sure that Orks will be updated after DA.
I'm a bit worried about the 'cult' codices; isn't the current policy regarding add-on codices the exact opposite, as shown with the now stand-alone BT and DA?

Brotherdraagor
05-01-2007, 18:43
I'm thinking that's the kind of codecies the cults will get, rather than just add ons (which are being scrapped as far as we know).

Kjell
05-01-2007, 18:46
I'm thinking that's the kind of codecies the cults will get, rather than just add ons (which are being scrapped as far as we know).

Well, if the Cult books will be like the Chapter books... There's your answer.

I'm mostly curious as to how this would work. Better and bigger Chaos books are fine with me but it seems a bit odd.

Insane Psychopath
05-01-2007, 18:50
What other rumors are out there about Chaos?

Chaos Termies where ment to come out around christmas time, but got push back to Easter due to the WFB release & other stuff. Though not heard much after that?? Forge World also plan to do a lot of add on's.

We should be seeing a Chaos HQ in plastic so Lord/Lt. Though not heard much of this. Just when speaking to Greame McNeil that last year Scottish Conflict he said there where plans for a plastic Chaos HQ as they want a lot of there models to be plastic.

There was talk of a Juggernaught (sp) on these fourms which Brim himself did say he hear but not seen the model.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60514

I've also heard that the Chaos Space Marine plastic set might see it being 10 men instead of 8. There will be more add on's for the Chaos Marines as well.

Might see legion spure, but that is not 100%. It would be pretty cool to have each main legion having there own spure.

I could see the Chaos Sorcerer being given a boost due to not many people out there use him & when you compair him to the Space Marine Liberian or the Eldar farseer on the power front & way they are. See them getting new power & as said a bit of a boost, but this is just my though.

IP

Elanthanis
05-01-2007, 18:53
Kind of odd considering that the Chaos cults seem to be the most used lists... huh.

sanctusmortis
05-01-2007, 18:59
I imagine it's because they want the cults to stop being "MEQ + rule" troops. In other words, they want to make each cult a proper army in its own right...

THE CHIEF
05-01-2007, 19:00
hmm. i heard they were going to do two codexes- one a general undevided and the other the cults. i think it will be too long a timeframe to release five seperate chaos books.

plastic HQs will be amazing as everybody converts them like mad anyway. this will be very well recieved if its true!

squigsnok
05-01-2007, 19:05
To be honest I know the chaos list is a bit badly organised and there are certain varient army lists that need a good looking at and a rethink (Iron Warriors at one end of the scale, Thousand Sons at the other) but the chaos list isnt in as desperate need of a redo as the ork one is. I for one will be very (very) annoyed if GW push the orkses back again...

Sanath
05-01-2007, 19:19
If my thousand sons get a new codex i'll be more than happy:angel: I agree that the chaos list is strangely organized...but please oh please let the ability to customize our forces as it is....I really hate the way they did eldar limiting wargear options nad all...Chaos always had the most options and lets it be that way:p

it's chaos after all:angel:

ChrisLS
05-01-2007, 19:45
hmm. i heard they were going to do two codexes- one a general undevided and the other the cults. i think it will be too long a timeframe to release five seperate chaos books.

Hmmm... I may have misunderstood him. I seem to recall him saying something like Codex: Khorne, but that may have been in the context of a larger cult codex.

Deathraven
05-01-2007, 20:45
I heard after DA it was orks then BA and then the first chaos book, but that's all just rumour mill stuff. Did they mention how many books chaos would be split into?

UnRiggable
05-01-2007, 20:53
You do realize that if they go eldar on the chaos codex it will be the most ruined piece of warhammer ever to have been concieved - Khorne berzerkers and Thousand sons on the same team!

Of course maybe there will be an official slaanesh rider, not just chapter approved. I'd still be angry if they get rid of all those chaos things that makes em so chaos-ey

Zerosoul
05-01-2007, 20:56
You do realize that if they go eldar on the chaos codex it will be the most ruined piece of warhammer ever to have been concieved - Khorne berzerkers and Thousand sons on the same team!

Of course maybe there will be an official slaanesh rider, not just chapter approved. I'd still be angry if they get rid of all those chaos things that makes em so chaos-ey

You can do this NOW, so I don't see how the codex would be ruined if it gave you the ability to do something you already can.

theplourde
05-01-2007, 21:26
Indeed, I am working (slowly) on a Black Legion list which will have Slaanesh Possessed, and Tzeench Terminators as well as Khornate Daemons among it's many units. I hope that if they break up the codex as rumored that I will still have the ability do field this kind of army as it is what attracted me to Chaos in the first place.

Sinisterfence
05-01-2007, 23:00
I hope they dont do that.. if they do I'm not using it (I mainly play against my mates anyway, too many little kids in store) even though I play iron Warriors, thus no need for the various different cults, they're still interesting. personally I'm hoping there's some form of doctrine's system like the Eldar should have had

Wraith
05-01-2007, 23:00
I'd love to see if GW does to the Deamon Prince what they did to the Carnifex...

[Not that I don't like the current model though.]

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
05-01-2007, 23:12
If my thousand sons get a new codex i'll be more than happy:angel: I agree that the chaos list is strangely organized...but please oh please let the ability to customize our forces as it is....I really hate the way they did eldar limiting wargear options nad all...Chaos always had the most options and lets it be that way:p

it's chaos after all:angel:

TRUE i dont want Chaos to have such crappy codex as eldars have.

Also, what with 9 orginal traitor legions:

-Black Legion will be in First Chaos Book

so:
where will be 4 undivided legions ? in First Chaos Book or i have to wait soooo long ?
where will be WE,TS,DG and EC ?

Nebuchadnezzar
05-01-2007, 23:32
I doubt that there will be 5 codices 1 for undivided
and 4 for the gods.
because then the gods armys would be long time without a legal list
its more likely that there will be one marien and one lost and dammed.

(and i hope for some improvements in the gods specific lists (exept slanesh), for example heavy weapons for death guard but limited to havocs, better psy powers for all god lists that are not random)

philbrad2
05-01-2007, 23:38
I think this too. The release schedule would be horrendous. I do however think we may get a Codex Chaos Undivided and a Chaos Cults codex covering the 4 major powers. It would be an easier option for GW to produce a series of models covering the 4 powers than series of models for each power.

PhilB
:chrome:

FarseerUshanti
05-01-2007, 23:44
I asked Detris about the breakdown of Chaos Codexes and he said he was going to check about the LatD army list. I'm pretty sure he did say there would be at least two chaos codexes though. Maybe it would be 1 with the undivided and LatD, and another book that is split into 4 sections, 1 for each Chaos God.

Edit: actually he said there would be several codecies fro specific legions

|_ysander
06-01-2007, 00:01
i don't beleive that order, i recall hearing that they want to do a space marine chaperter book between armies, atfer dark angels, chapters 2 have been done. the other two will be spcae wolves and blood angels. the order i beilive is DA, orks, blood angels , other other armie, spacewovles. i also recall hearing that there will be 1 major CSM codex (liek teh space marines) with the undivided armys in them. and then 4 more codexes one for each of the other 4 books of chaos. since the codex systems sounds so much liek the SM one, i believe that thoughs 4 books will come out in between armies, if you work it out in that way, every thing falls together perfectly :)

KingNova3000
06-01-2007, 00:06
Gah I dont like the idea how they're breaking up the chaos codex, GW are making to many tasks for themselves to try and complete in a reasonable time frame. Why not just realese one single big book like the old 2nd ed chaos codex, one half of it dedicated to Undivided and the other half to cults, it worked back then why wouldn't it work today?

If they do do the split what do all the cult marine list players do? Wait a year and a half for their book, I cant imagine them being able to officially use the old dex to make their lists, that would open up the whole "Why cant I use my craft world codex" debate again.

Killgore
06-01-2007, 00:16
i would perfer several quality books then just 1 big messed up book,

the 5 chaos codex idea sounds good to me

especialy with latd rules :)

FarseerUshanti
06-01-2007, 00:17
That was the plan, but with possible problems with the ork plastics (yes there apparently are still problems) means they needed to be delayed. Chaos (at least the chaos space marines) needed little tweaking. Similar to the Tau list. The only real addition would be apossible LatD list which would need to be playtested.

susu.exp
06-01-2007, 00:18
(and i hope for some improvements in the gods specific lists (exept slanesh), for example heavy weapons for death guard but limited to havocs, better psy powers for all god lists that are not random)

You already get heavy weapons for the death guard... On Dreadnoughts, Predators and Defilers.

Something I can see, is a split similar to the two books in fantasy, CSM and LatD, with your general determining which army stays in their usual FOC, with cult lists in both Codeci and the option to take units from the other codex as the choice they are in that codex + an Elite slot. This would allow the lists for the non-cult legions to be built (with Alpha legion using LatD core choices, and IWs using Traitor guard vehicles), but theyīd be slightly more balanced.

shabbadoo
06-01-2007, 01:22
Let's hope that the Undivided/Lost & the Damned codex also makes an effort to include rules & info on Huron Blackheart and his Astral Claws, and other traitor foces in the the Maelstrom.

Yes, the Maelstrom. Some might remember it.

Nebuchadnezzar
06-01-2007, 01:35
You already get heavy weapons for the death guard... On Dreadnoughts, Predators and Defilers.


my point is that dg is a infantry based army with little tanks so why i forced to fill my heavy support slots with tanks to be competive....

and what about the 100 pictures of dg holding heavy bolters?
why i cant take none ich would like to use them becourse of efficence and style (they are THE bolter army)

Gensuke626
06-01-2007, 01:59
maybe they'd do 3 chaos books? Chaos undivided followed by books that are shared by their opponents (Khorne/Slaanesh, Nurgle/Tzeentch) like the old Realms of Chaos books were (Minus the d1000 tables)
so far the 5 book with a book between each sounds the most feasible, but that'd take YEARS to come out...and I don't know if Chaos players could accept that.

What I wouldn't mind seeing is Codex: Traitor Legions (To cover CSM) Codex: Cultists and Heretics (To cover LaTD) and Codex: Daemonspawn (To cover demons, possesed, ect.) Then you could use the ally system to bring them together...So you could have a Traitor Lord as your requisite HQ and some Traitor Marine Squads for a Traitor legion and then you can take a Greater Demon some cultist Squads, ect.

sabre4190
06-01-2007, 02:17
i would really like to see the lost and the damned revived as part of chaos. right now its just a side note as an army, but fluffwise it is probably one of the most influential force in the game. after all, how many stories have we read about traitors? on the medusa V info, they mention how rioting and betrayal was the greatest factor in past battles. if there were actual model for players who arnt big on converting or at least an upgrade sprue, i think it would re-introduce a vital part of the warhammer history.

if lotd is part of the list, i think it does need IG options for characters such as a russ. i think it should be a little DH style, where you induct options.

Marshal2Crusaders
06-01-2007, 03:36
I think it the current one for divided will give you options like the eldar codex gives(for undivided codex of course) traitors and such will be allowed to be taken as troops and such, then the list gets more consise(sp?)

Arch-Traitor Horus
06-01-2007, 03:50
Most of this is old, although I'm pretty sure that Orks will be updated after DA.
I'm a bit worried about the 'cult' codices; isn't the current policy regarding add-on codices the exact opposite, as shown with the now stand-alone BT and DA?

supposedly its a race which ever one gets finished first will be out first:confused:

bloody_sabbath
06-01-2007, 05:11
Well the current Chaos book lacks format and fine balance, but thats about it. The only lists of Chaos that need revisal because of their popularity are the LatD lists.

I dont think that the new Chaos codex is going to be a Dark gods only book or a Undivided only book just because that would mean you would have to ignore all of these out of date rules and make half of the current book useless. Esspecially if its a gods only book.

MarikLaw
06-01-2007, 05:35
I heard after DA it was orks then BA and then the first chaos book, but that's all just rumour mill stuff. Did they mention how many books chaos would be split into?

From what I've been told, minimum of one Chaos book, maximum of five (Chaos Space Marines, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons).

The whole reason their re-doing the Codex is primarily because of rather blaring problems that have come up (Thousand Sons being seriously underpowered, minor Death Guard problems, Codex overcomplicated rules, rules scattered thurought the Codex, the Codex itself being cramped, among other things). From what I was originally told (I cant even remember if it was a Dev or a Red Coat that said it to me now, thats how long ago it was) was that the new Chaos-based Codex would work to alleviate alot of the problems and be primarily a "Vanilla" Chaos Codex (Black Legion primarily) and that potentially 2-4 Chaos Space Marine Legions would be getting their own independent Codex.

From what I recall said person said to not take it as the "Vanilla" Codex being Undivided Only as it will have Gifts and Marks from the various Gods, just dont expect it to be crammed with Legion rules or a half page for each Mark of Chaos. From what I've gathered, their "trimming the fat" of the old Codex and, apparently (as the rumour mill would have it) might be cramming Lost and the Damned into the book as well.

What I figure, now this is pure speculation, but the new Chaos book will show trends towards how Eldar, Dark Angels, and Orks are being set up so that some Legions will be worked right into the Codex itself (for instance, Bikes squads of a certain number as Troops choices for Night Lords, Chaos Cultists as Troops for any Chaos Space Marine force, Daemon Packs that can be selected as other force organization slots, etc etc etc).

Basically, I wouldnt at all be suprised if we only saw maybe 2 pages of lore/fluff on the Undivided Legions of Chaos (Black Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion) in order to cut pack on space used so that more stuff can be crammed in. Even then, unless they introduce some kind of Doctrine-esque or Chapter Traits-esque force building system, I doubt we'll see armies being able to take more than one unit of Raptors or Obliterators, but again, thats just speculation.

Wyssy Wyg
06-01-2007, 07:10
I would like some confirmation that C: CSM is actually next after C: DA instead of C: Orks as has been the expectation of most up until now, as far as I know.

NightLord
06-01-2007, 07:24
The order still reamins DA, and than the Orks. Chaos is after both. Ork players dont worry. If I am wrong you can all beat me with sticks. But dont count on me being wrong =p

Nebuchadnezzar
06-01-2007, 10:17
jet when i recall the discussion before the last codex chaos there was the roumor about 4 god specifik books which came... but nobody thought that book migth mean 4 pages of codex space.
so i dont worry about this rumor.
(i think this rumor is so popular because of the wish of many chaos players who want a whole book for their legion)

Sarigar
06-01-2007, 12:00
Personally, I'd hate to see 5 different Chaos Books. 5th Edition will be out by the time they get to the last book, and then rule changes will give problems for the older codexes. Uggghh.

One rulebook works, but it needs streamlined and clarified. I would be ok with two rulebooks as hinted at. However, I'd be very curious how armies could be played. (eg. Death Guard armies just use the old codex as it won't be compatible with a new codex). If GW does a Chaos Undivided Codex, they still would have to include rules for the 4 chaos powers and demons (and probably different point costs).

The current book works, it just needs some cleaning, clarification and streamlining. For more fluff, they have Black Library Publishing.

Off topic: One easy fix for the codex: make Obliterators a Heavy Support Choice. Fixes the biggest complaint about Iron Warriors- 4 Pie Plates and 9 Obliterators in one army.

susu.exp
06-01-2007, 12:15
my point is that dg is a infantry based army with little tanks so why i forced to fill my heavy support slots with tanks to be competive....

Well, I fill them with dreads. Walkers work well with the image of an infantry force.


and what about the 100 pictures of dg holding heavy bolters?
why i cant take none ich would like to use them becourse of efficence and style (they are THE bolter army)

Thatīs true, but on the other hand a HB would redurce their mobility. Now if the HB was an option for DG termies, thatīd be interesting...

Black Behemoth
06-01-2007, 12:22
Off topic: One easy fix for the codex: make Obliterators a Heavy Support Choice. Fixes the biggest complaint about Iron Warriors- 4 Pie Plates and 9 Obliterators in one army.

If you made Obliterators heavy, MORE people would complain. You would have to put a limitation on Obliterators (perhaps 0-2 for Iron Warriors?) or remove the 4 Heavy Support choices or else people will run 12 Obliterators...


And for Death Guard, how about an ability that makes Heavy Bolters fire as Assault 3 but makes it so you cannot assault that turn? The Heavy Bolters would be more expensive (15-20 points), but would really fit into Death Guard fluff, especially since normal Bolters get a special ability (True Grit).

Damien 1427
06-01-2007, 12:47
I take it I'm the only person who thinks the current incarnation of Codex Chaos is fine?

Maybe I'm too far gone, as I can make perfect sense of it.

Minos Engele
06-01-2007, 13:13
I don't see the need for multiple books. The layout of the current book is reasonably clear. Just add LatD, rules that better portray the current Legions (and are balanced) and make sure everything is worded correctly. This would make the codex maybe 5-6 pages bigger.

gitburna
06-01-2007, 14:21
i suspect if they did anything to the books, splitting it across two books [undivided and cults] would work best.

Cult squads basically only need a couple of entries :- units of 6/7/8/9 men, with the relavent upgrades powers for each unit [this would also make it easier for them to points cost because each unit is a set size and doesnt have a miriad of upgrades to choose from. I'd imagine greater daemons and lords for each of the powers would also be in there, daemons for each power, and heavy supports. Since the cult powers arent meant to have obliterators, they would go out, likewise raptors, basilisks etc etc.

I've never been happy with the way that Word Bearers [who supposedly used mass waves of cultists] got extra daemons as their signature unit, so if random cultists and mutants will be included in there as well thats all fine by me. The Storm of Iron and Warriors of Ultramar books dont only feature chaos marines, their armies seem more to be "pre heresy" in organisation with plenty of slaves as well, so availability of fodder troops [as if the chaos marines were their leige lords] for at least the 5 non-cult legions is entirely appropriate.

Can anyone see IronWarriors losing their Basilisks ? Theyre the only marine army which can take them, and to my mind theyre *only* in the list as a nod to their siege warfare modus operandi , which you might say is already covered by virtue of having 4 heavy support and multiple obliterators. On the other hand, basilisks would be ideal as support for the LATD forces, so perhaps they could stay afterall.

Marshal2Crusaders
06-01-2007, 16:31
i just want a model line for lost and the damned to my knowledge they are the only codex without a model line. if im wrong sry. the cultists sould be allowed in troops slots, and the plastic should look like the forge world traitors as they look cool. like in a 2000 pt word bearers list u take 2 squads of 20 traitors 2 squads of Marines, 2 squads of daemons and viola a fluffy army

Tymell
06-01-2007, 16:37
I take it I'm the only person who thinks the current incarnation of Codex Chaos is fine?

Maybe I'm too far gone, as I can make perfect sense of it.

You're not, because I feel that too, and this seems an example of just releasing a new codex "because". I can only see a handful of things that could do with changing, not enough to warrant a new codex really.

However, my main gripe is this multiple codexes business. I so, so hope they don't do it, but it's looking like they will, and if so I'll likely be boycotting the new codexes alltogether and just sticking to my old one.

Firstly, it's just looks like it'll make things more confusing, having to flick through several books, and seems to go against GW's direction of late.

Second, it would seem (unless I'm missing something) that people are only going to be able to play with their undivided stuff when that comes out, and then have to wait a year or more to use anything else. If the first one does allow for using other kinds, then what's the point of more books? If it doesn't, it could potentially ruin the army for a long time.

And third, it just stinks of an attempt to get Chaos players to fork out more cash. Separate background books, fine (although we already have those in the Liber Chaotica), but if these are all needed to play, then something's wrong.

gorgon
06-01-2007, 16:50
I doubt that there will be 5 codices 1 for undivided
and 4 for the gods.
because then the gods armys would be long time without a legal list
its more likely that there will be one marien and one lost and dammed.

Yes...unless the first chaos book allows you to take Khornate, Slanneshi, etc. armies, just not the "big 4" legions. So World Eater players would be able to use their armies as a generic Khorne army until Codex: World Eaters was released and they get all the extra-special stuff.

I have no inside knowledge, but it seems to me that this would work and make sense.

Edit: It looks like this is inline with what MarikLaw's source said.

Carcass
06-01-2007, 17:19
It is really stupid and retarded to bring 1 undivided codex and 4 marked ones. I prefer the 1+1.
" So yes, you play chaos undivided and you have to buy 5 codicis, isnt that beautifull? "

Findecano
06-01-2007, 17:26
why 5 codices? you'll only need 1 or 2 extra, at the most. I find it great. at least its less space marines. I mean, after DA, with its plastic vind, drop pod and devastators, the entire range is almost redundant; only things left for plastic are scout bikers. I do hope, however, that the lists are more realistic; more LATD, less CSM.

Brotherdraagor
06-01-2007, 17:38
Why is everyone thinking that you'd have to buy extra codecies? Look at Black Templars, essentailly a Space Marine codex, but self contained so you don't have to fork out for the original. If GW are going to do 5 codecies for Chaos, then I'm thinking that's how it'll be done. I agree that less Marines would be good idea though, would give Chaos a more unique flavour.

Bun Bun
06-01-2007, 17:57
I would prefer that they did one codex as a whole but if they have to do more than one then an undivided codex followed by a cult codex shortly after would be preferable. :cool:

Neo799
06-01-2007, 18:05
I would imagine the separate god codicies would be very thin. What more can they stuff in there? I think one single codex would suffice even if it has to be made longer with more pages. A separate codex for Lost and the Damned would be odd. I have yet to see anyone play them.

BloodiedSword
06-01-2007, 19:25
Given the direction they've been going in, I think it's almost certain that the multiple books (and AFAIK it's pretty much been confirmed that there will be more than one book) will all be standalone. None of this "you need both the basic book and the cult book to play cult armies" crap.

Certainly a lot of the Chaos Codex needs changing IMO. There's little that's gamebreaking left in it, but the fact that they took the almost unprecedented step of actually re-balancing parts of this codex after release speaks volumes about it.

My money will be on the 2 book approach - one for Undivided, one for the various gods, with only very few units being common to both.

I'm quite looking forward to it as well, though I don't think it should take priority over Orks..

giner
06-01-2007, 20:12
I like the current codex the only things I'd really like to see are plastic termies and a plastic sonic weapons sprue. Saying that if they intoduce LaTD then fair enough. Still if they can surprise me with someting brilliant then go for it.

Wraith
06-01-2007, 20:23
Separate codices means more money so surely it's a good idea for GW to consider them?

If you think about it, each codex is justification for at least one add on sprue per legion.

I think you'll all be pleasantly suprised... but meh... whatever.

UnRiggable
06-01-2007, 21:15
I think there should be two, one for traitors and such and one for the god armies (as an add-on maybe).
I don't even see the need for a new codex, just an integration of the current one with the latd codex. Only big problem is oblits need to be moved into the hs spot.

Bregalad
06-01-2007, 21:23
Separate codices means more money so surely it's a good idea for GW to consider them?
If you think about it, each codex is justification for at least one add on sprue per legion.
I think you'll all be pleasantly suprised... but meh... whatever.

Yeah, I see the headline in WD:
"Sorry folks, but the next 7 years will be SM and CSM releases only, DE and Necrons will be pushed back to 2015, as doing all possible variations of SM and CSM Codices (plus all in a Redux/unplugged version with different minimum squad sizes plus new chapters in boxer shorts, Hawaii shirts and/or big Western hats) will take a while." :rolleyes:

DeClaw
06-01-2007, 21:43
I think it will decided like this, what models can they/would they like to bring out for chaos and how much fluff needs to come back and be put in the codex? since chaos undivided needs a decent chaos lord, a 5/10 unit of chaos marines, new terminators, cultests etc and the chaos codex is so full of rules the majority of the fluff has leaked out into other publications it is easy to see why thay may be relieased. As for the/a split it means that more attention and money can go INTO the cult range and more attention put into the fluff (not to mention more playtesting into what are at the moment sub-lists). GW won't release a codex if it dosen't have a good range of models to sell with it, they will look at each componant of chaos as a whole first and see if a split is viable then procede.

Finally should chaos come out before Orks it will only be because of unforseen problems arising fron the Ork development that means they can't be reliesed earlier and that chaos development is going well and I,n shore that GW have other projects that are on stand by incase of emergencies (like Apocalyps perhaps) to give them the time they need.

xNickBaranx
06-01-2007, 22:54
I think a lot of people are missing the advantages here. The rule of this edition is "self contained codexes" - no supplements, add ons, appendices, etc.

So your Chaos Undivided book will allow you to play Iron Warriors and a multitude of other legions. It will omit the troop types not available to such a legion. It will have full background and the releases will be appropriate to the content with supplemental plastics.

If you have no desire to play World Eaters or Thousand Sons, great, you won't need this book (in theory).

When the Khorne book comes, it will only deal with all things Khorne, and the releases will reflect that as well.

It sounds to me like they are taking their second biggest seller and giving it the treatment that the Imperial Space Marines receive.

This means more background, more releases, and likely at least one release appropriate to all Chaos Legions per Chaos Codex release. Effectively you are getting the same love that Marines get. That should be cause for celebration, not disdain.

You guys should be doing some sort of happy summoning dance.

And to the guy who said he's never seen anyone play LatD, I think I generally see as many LatD players at tournaments as I see Ork players - possibly more.

TheEndIsHere
06-01-2007, 23:33
No one plays LaTD because there are no codex and o models for it I would love to play LaTD but I can't, I don't have the money/time to buy that many models and covert them all...

TheEnd

Wraith
07-01-2007, 00:11
Yeah, I see the headline in WD:
"Sorry folks, but the next 7 years will be SM and CSM releases only, DE and Necrons will be pushed back to 2015, as doing all possible variations of SM and CSM Codices (plus all in a Redux/unplugged version with different minimum squad sizes plus new chapters in boxer shorts, Hawaii shirts and/or big Western hats) will take a while." :rolleyes:

I love the Necrons but I don't believe GW is going to touch them with a ten foot barge pole for a very, very long time...

When they do go back to them I imagine they'll likely be completely re-done though which is nice.

I even think the DE will get attention before GW revisits the Necrons.



You're all victims of your obsession with space marines (of all varieties) and GW's glee at providing for your habit...

Marshal2Crusaders
07-01-2007, 00:17
oh god if they do chaos they need to release the undived and cult codexs simultaneously(sp?). they need to do that to marines too. Space Wolves and Blood angels at the same time then be done with marines

Hellebore
07-01-2007, 00:39
I really hate the way they did eldar limiting wargear options nad all...



:wtf:

How was eldar wargear any more limited than it used to be? They ADDED exarch equipment, and the autarch had a huge list of wargear.

:wtf:

I would like the Daemonhunters adversary rules in the chaos codex. I would like to see the option for more than just HUMAN chaos armies.

Hellebore

DonkeyMan
07-01-2007, 00:57
Meh, they are going to print Chaos Undivided before Orks. :(

Undivided!?! Never liked the Idea of an Undivided Chaos. Personally for me this destroyed the Chaos lore.

stompzilla
07-01-2007, 02:01
So more Meq armies then? Yawwwn.

What i'd like to see, is a streamlined and tidied (and dare i say it, balanced) version of the previous codex chaos space MARINES, similar to what happened with Tau. Then for the second chaos dex a LatD army worthy of the name.

It's essentially be a new race - new models etc. In addition to being fluffy and representative. I mean there's plenty of inspiration out there. Just read some Abnett.

What's not to like about an army of heretics, plague zombies, mutanta, traitors, Blood pact, Loxatl, Excubitors, stalk tanks, Steg3s etc, etc.

+ It'd be something different! Of God, how dull will it be if all the legions get seperate codices too!
"Fancy a game?"
"So what colour of space marines you got?"
"Red."
"Spiky or not?"
"spiky"
"Okay....."

Sanath
07-01-2007, 09:50
well it could be refreshing...but when the codex comes many army lists will become obsolete...and if they divide it into undivided and four cults i will rip my teeth of if they force me to wait another 3 years for Tzeentch cult list:wtf:

are there any rmours concerning the chaos codex?? i mean any significant changes in the list??

philbrad2
07-01-2007, 10:15
I take it I'm the only person who thinks the current incarnation of Codex Chaos is fine?


No your not. Codex CSM is one of my favourite codices ever - just like the 2nd ed one.


I love the Necrons but I don't believe GW is going to touch them with a ten foot barge pole for a very, very long time...

When they do go back to them I imagine they'll likely be completely re-done though which is nice.

I even think the DE will get attention before GW revisits the Necrons.


I like the Necron codex immensely even if I find the army somewhat limited. If anything it sent ripples through 40K for the background. Here were a races that had/have the potential to be badder than Chaos, more ancient than the Eldar and more powerful than them all put together! I could see GW revising the codex in the next few years to tweak the armylist (add new units) but I doubt they'll expand on the background too much.


You're all victims of your obsession with space marines (of all varieties) and GW's glee at providing for your habit...

Ain't that the truth ;)

PhilB
:chrome:

Sarigar
07-01-2007, 13:51
The current codex works, but needs some clarifications. They've went through 3-4 different printings changing the wording on a few things and did not put the info out. I've got the same codex that came with the Chaos Megaforce when it was first released (along w/ the ugly limited ed model). There are lots of changes between it and the current printing.

Issues I'd like to see addressed:

Demon Summoning. Get rid of the Template. Have the Icon act similar to a teleport homer. Place your first model within 6" of the icon bearer and then spiral them around the first model. I can barely fit 6 Mounted Demonettes under the template. 10 is impossible. Their tails get in the way and it is generally a mess. Getting 10 furies to fit under the template is another pain in the a#%. If folks want it to scatter, fine, no big deal. Being force to place all models under the template just doesn't work well.

How many Demon Princes have you faced that are illegal? For myself, several. Streamline this area so folks won't constantly screw this up.

By RAW, you are supposed to remove the Tzeentch AC if you only cause one wound to the squad. It's silly and no one uses it, but how about clearing it up.

How many times has GW tried to fix things involving the Bezerker Glaive and movement modes?

I still get people trying to claim Juggernauts move like cavalry.

I found the Defiler entry actually changed allowing vehicle upgrades. That was an interesting find.

Weapon options in the various cult sections. It looks like Tzeentch Chosen can take Lascannons. It says they have no special weapon restrictions. Weird.

Some tourneys that I've attended allow Mounted Demonettes. Some I've attended do not. Jeff Hall advised that this was an oversight and they are allowed at the 2007 GT circuit. It would be nice if they were in the codex so as to not lead to confusion.

These are off the top of my head. I've been playing with Chaos since 2nd edition and have played against them since 1st edition. The rules have always been a bit wonky, but GW is getting close to some solid rules for them. The book is close, but still needs work and clarification.

Kjell
07-01-2007, 14:59
By RAW, you are supposed to remove the Tzeentch AC if you only cause one wound to the squad. It's silly and no one uses it, but how about clearing it up.

Nope, that's not the case. When units of multiple-wound models suffer damage, you are to remove whole multiple-wound models whenever possible. Aspiring Champions are not multiple-wound models. As such, they aren't removed unless the whole squad is obliterated or they're somehow specifically targeted.

I guess it's a bit like majority toughness/save. The ones you take the hits against are the ones who get removed as causalties.

Tymell
07-01-2007, 16:28
Why is everyone thinking that you'd have to buy extra codecies? Look at Black Templars, essentailly a Space Marine codex, but self contained so you don't have to fork out for the original. If GW are going to do 5 codecies for Chaos, then I'm thinking that's how it'll be done. I agree that less Marines would be good idea though, would give Chaos a more unique flavour.

Yes, but with Space Marines you can't have a mix of different chapters in one army, so you'll only ever need one of the codexes. Whereas Chaos armies will often have a mix of the different powers, so split codexes for the powers could mean multiple purchases.

gorgon
07-01-2007, 17:07
Yes, but with Space Marines you can't have a mix of different chapters in one army, so you'll only ever need one of the codexes. Whereas Chaos armies will often have a mix of the different powers, so split codexes for the powers could mean multiple purchases.

But having both the 3rd ed codex and a 4th ed "undivided" codex concurrently "legal" goes against everything GW's trying to do these days. And that would be the situation for anyone with cult armies if the new chaos codex was literally undivided only...they'd still have to use the 3rd ed. codex or shelve their army until their book was released, perhaps years down the road. And that's why I think people shouldn't panic...it makes NO sense and makes things 10x more complicated, not simpler.

As others have said, I'm guessing the other codicies (if it happens this way) will be for specific legions, not specific chaos powers. Look, the blueprint is in the SM codicies...if you want to field a BA-"lite" army, you can accomplish that through traits like Furious Charge, vet asst. squads, etc. But only the BA codex has all the extra special stuff specific to BAs. So, for instance, the new Chaos codex will have rules for Khornate stuff that World Eaters players can use in the meantime. But they'll have to wait until Codex: World Eaters to get all the extra-special stuff specific to World Eaters, the Khorniest of the Khorne. ;)

That way, no one's army is invalidated (to a major degree) and all the books are self-contained. Doesn't mean they'll do it this way, but it is the only thing that makes sense if they're serious about multiple books. I just hope LatD are worked into the first book.

Dreachon
07-01-2007, 17:35
The undivided codex will likely have rules for having marked units in your army.
You can make the army but you won't have the special cult rules untill the codex for the cults is done.

Sinisterfence
07-01-2007, 17:55
I think the multiple codex is a stupid idea.. espescially when they've stated the opposite for fantasy chaos: merging beasts and hordes into one book

Marshal2Crusaders
07-01-2007, 17:56
...............hmmm they have to merge the codexes or do a joint release. have they ever done a joint release in the past?

lord_blackfang
07-01-2007, 18:09
But having both the 3rd ed codex and a 4th ed "undivided" codex concurrently "legal" goes against everything GW's trying to do these days. And that would be the situation for anyone with cult armies if the new chaos codex was literally undivided only...they'd still have to use the 3rd ed. codex or shelve their army until their book was released, perhaps years down the road. And that's why I think people shouldn't panic...it makes NO sense and makes things 10x more complicated, not simpler.


And how would this be different from the Loyalist "big four" situation?

Captain Lysander360
07-01-2007, 20:50
Most of this is old, although I'm pretty sure that Orks will be updated after DA.
I'm a bit worried about the 'cult' codices; isn't the current policy regarding add-on codices the exact opposite, as shown with the now stand-alone BT and DA?

The orks are being redone after da but chaos i think is at the end of year

wasted
07-01-2007, 21:49
Here a few things that could be revised\added in new chaos codex:

1. Dread Claw? They are still SPACE MARINES...
2. Separate entries for Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord\Lieutenant\Sorcerer and Greater Daemons...
3. Enchanced chaos Sorcerer - this guys MUST have a serious boost...
4. Separate entries for Chosen and Chosen Terminators...
5. Revised Possessed - right now these guys are expensive for what they do and what they have. They should be tough and unstable. It could be nice to add Feel No Paine rule for them...
6. Since Undivided CSMs dont have any deamons in Troops there could be Cultists...
7. Raptors cost could be fixed...

Yeah, these are the main things to change in new dex I guess...

Ophidicus
07-01-2007, 23:04
I cheered when I read the rumours of 5 Chaos codices, the Traitor Legions deserve the same treatment as the Loyalists, there's easily enough depth for a 64 page codex each. Chaos is one of the great strengths of the 40k universe, a defining feature, and many peoples' favourite armies. I very rarely see a mixed Chaos army, in my experience themed Cult armies have always been the most popular. People have Slaanesh armies, Nurgle armies etc.

Codex: Emperor's Children will make me smile.

As will getting rid of that stupid "you haven't posted in several weeks" message. But not quite as much.

Misanthrope
07-01-2007, 23:36
I personally don't see anything wrong with the current Chaos codex. Nothing glaringly wrong, anyway. I'd like to see Chaos split into two books; one for the Undivided and Cultists/Traitor Guard/Mutants/etc, and one for the Big Four Legions (WE/DG/1K/EC). Releasing one codex for every Legion is goign to be a pain and will take a decade before all of them are released. I don't want to wait a decade.

Carcass
08-01-2007, 00:34
The undivided codex will likely have rules for having marked units in your army.

and what about the armoury ? tha marked vehicles ? the special rules ta govern units ?
Only the rules that concern the whole cult cant be used in chaos undivided. All the other can.
To see 5 books which contain more or less the same things will be a real puke.

edit: about fluff. I dont expect anything really. The last thing i read about fluff and enjoyed it ( speakng for gw only ) was the eye of terror codex. Whatever comes next is mostly recycled from previous stuff and expanded terribly short, filled most with reports from boring battles etc.

Kromando33
08-01-2007, 00:55
I would like the Daemonhunters adversary rules in the chaos codex. I would like to see the option for more than just HUMAN chaos armies.

Hellebore

I'd say their are more pressing issues for the chaos codex, you can only use DH/WH adversary rules when versing a Witch hunter or the like force. But I would like to see full and official LaTD rules in the next codex. I think the main issue with the Chaos codex is not so much balancing and rules, as they did a pretty good job with that in the current dex. I would say the main issue is clarifications of rules and wording, and making all the rules etc straight to the point and not ambiguous.

gorgon
08-01-2007, 03:05
And how would this be different from the Loyalist "big four" situation?

One situation involves subcodicies and one involves full codicies.

Hellebore
08-01-2007, 04:23
I'd say their are more pressing issues for the chaos codex, you can only use DH/WH adversary rules when versing a Witch hunter or the like force. But I would like to see full and official LaTD rules in the next codex. I think the main issue with the Chaos codex is not so much balancing and rules, as they did a pretty good job with that in the current dex. I would say the main issue is clarifications of rules and wording, and making all the rules etc straight to the point and not ambiguous.

What I meant was that you had the option of having effectively LatD Orks, Eldar, Tau, Kroot etc.

I would like to see chaos as the all pervasive threat it is supposed to be, rather than the enemy of humanity exclusively. The Adversaries rules allow you to take chaos-ified alien armies, and if they were in the chaos codex then you would be able to take them all the time, and not just when your opponent's army allows you to.

Those adversary rules can create some GREAT themed armies, but because you are beholden to 2 armies, you never get to play them against anyone else.

LatD is my favourite chaos army, because to me it presents an accurate chaos marine army - a meatshield of cultists/mutants, backed by elite marines.

LatD DEFINITELY needs to be in the core book - it's the truest form of chaos available.

Hellebore

Horusaurus
08-01-2007, 05:03
Here a few things that could be revised\added in new chaos codex:

1. Dread Claw? They are still SPACE MARINES...
Yes, but there should be a rule that units which arrive by Dread Claw cannot summon daemons. You could justify this by saying that only units already present at the site of the battle can perform all the necessary pre-battle rituals, sacrifices, etc, etc.


2. Separate entries for Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord\Lieutenant\Sorcerer and Greater Daemons...
I'd rather see separate entries for Chaos Lord/Lieutenant, Arch-heretic/Cultist Leader (human stats), and Greater Daemons. Both the Chaos Lord and Arch-heretic would then be eligible to take an upgrade making them a Daemon Prince. This way you could make Daemon Princes that weren't originally space marines.


3. Enchanced chaos Sorcerer - this guys MUST have a serious boost...
Especially the Tzeentch sorcerer.


4. Separate entries for Chosen and Chosen Terminators...
No. The Chosen and Chosen Terminators are a single entry for a reason - to allow the formation of mixed power armor/terminator squads. This reflects the individuality of each Chosen, who are champions in their own right, and their lack of strict organization.



To see 5 books which contain more or less the same things will be a real puke.
Sort of like, oh I don't know, the 5 books they're going to have for Space Marines, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves? Don't tell me that World Eaters have more in common with Thousand Sons than Dark Angels do with Blood Angels.


I hope they take this opportunity to differentiate marines who are dedicated to a certain god and those who are from one of the big 4 cult legions. Not every Tzeentch marine is a 2-wound automaton.

Kromando33
08-01-2007, 05:23
What I meant was that you had the option of having effectively LatD Orks, Eldar, Tau, Kroot etc.

I would like to see chaos as the all pervasive threat it is supposed to be, rather than the enemy of humanity exclusively. The Adversaries rules allow you to take chaos-ified alien armies, and if they were in the chaos codex then you would be able to take them all the time, and not just when your opponent's army allows you to.

Those adversary rules can create some GREAT themed armies, but because you are beholden to 2 armies, you never get to play them against anyone else.

LatD is my favourite chaos army, because to me it presents an accurate chaos marine army - a meatshield of cultists/mutants, backed by elite marines.

LatD DEFINITELY needs to be in the core book - it's the truest form of chaos available.

Hellebore

Yes but Hellebore the Codex is called 'Chaos Space Marines' and it's fluff directly relates to the Traitor Legions, anything that isn't a space marine is essentially support.

Hellebore
08-01-2007, 05:47
Yes but Hellebore the Codex is called 'Chaos Space Marines' and it's fluff directly relates to the Traitor Legions, anything that isn't a space marine is essentially support.

Well, my understanding was that the core chaos book was just going to be 'Chaos' like it was in 2nd ed.

Is that not the case? Is the theoretical codex chaos with LatD in it still going to be called codex chaos space marines?

Pity.

Hellebore

NightHaunter86
08-01-2007, 06:00
What I would like to see and what makes the most sense to me (but hey this is GW) is to release a Codex: Chaos Space Marines, which would include all the rules for all the legions as it does now. Then after that release a Codex: Lost and the Damned. This would allow the LatD to get a list, and some sweet models. Also GW would not be wasting time with making 5 different Chaos codices, and focus on more pressing things, and expanding the other races. I know there is a lot of support for the 5 Chaos 'dexs but I would rather not have 10 marine books...loyalist or not, that is WAY too many.

My two cents worth.

The pestilent 1
08-01-2007, 06:54
I'd still like some personalisation of Greater daemons.
If grand pappy Nurgle's favoured son isnt gonna get a Plague sword, then who will. :(

Or even better, some Greater Daemon only items, Plague mace, Flail-o-skulls, etc etc

Sanath
08-01-2007, 07:12
:wtf:

How was eldar wargear any more limited than it used to be? They ADDED exarch equipment, and the autarch had a huge list of wargear.
Hellebore

Yup , maybe i said it in a wrong way...I know there are many new possibilieties concering army lists....it comes to the way you customize your force....Everything was optional back then now much of the wargear is in standard..and the choice is somewhat limited...

i'm afraid they 'll do the same to chaos where all chaos lords will have deamonic visage for example but venom of talons wont be an option anymore

another example is the dark angels rumours....their legendary swords with special rules become MS p.weapons...don't get me wrong but i don't really like this trend GW tends to follow...making 40k just easier and easier for all..the Wh loses its flavour by this....of course thats my opinion;)

ChrisLS
08-01-2007, 07:46
I haven't got any specific info regarding how many codicies are going to be released, but I do remember my source telling me that Lost and the Damned would be incorporated into the main 'dex. I don't see a space issue at all - the new codicies seem to be weighing in at 96 pages, 14 more than the current Chaos codex, and all of the cult specific stuff would be removed.

I could definitely see cultist manned IG vehicles and the like, though I can also see a limit being placed upon them. Of course, they can't be much worse than having tons of Defilers with indirect...

As for Legion/Cult specific codicies, I think seeing more in depth background created for legions like the Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and Emperor's Children would be awesome. For one thing, all play at least a partial role in the Horus Heresy novels so there is already a springboard available for indepth development. I also don't think it would be a problem of a new edition coming around near/before they were released - 4th Ed seems a lot more resilient and lasting than 3rd Ed. What was it, 4 years into 3rd Ed stuff surfaced like the trial assault rules and other tinkering? I don't think anyone is even contemplating those kinds of structural changes to 4th Ed. I'd imagine 5th Ed is still several years away.

Sanath
08-01-2007, 10:20
yup,

4th edition is in its glory right now...don't really expect any serious changes concerning main rules...

I don't have any objections concerning incorporating lost and the damned into the main 'dex if i retain the option to field chaos space marines legions in a normal way....I won't stand obligatory LoD units

lord_blackfang
08-01-2007, 10:57
One situation involves subcodicies and one involves full codicies.

And who the heck ever said Chaos wouldn't get several full codices? :eyebrows:

Kriegsherr
08-01-2007, 11:52
I also hope they just do a codex chaos space marines, and a codex latd.

Hell, we don't need 5 CSM codices, and we don't need two. The only reason CSM players complained right now is because the imperial players got the full treat before. But Legion-specific codexes should be reserved for the spare space at the end of the edition when they have done all more important codexes... Just do a flexible CSM codex right now that allows to build cool armylists for all the legions, and is thouroughly playtested (unlike the last one :rolleyes:)

And then, do LatD, the REAL Codex: Chaos. Really, its refreshing to get something NEW fo some change and not just the fifth rehash of something that is overused anyway. And LatD fits in that space as they have been necleted since the 2nd edition where someone decided that a codex CSM is more than enough for chaos players.
And of course, maybe it helps to cut down the MEQ Player percentage (as much as a new ork codex would help ;))

foehammer888
08-01-2007, 13:14
The biggest hurdle for C:CSM is the quantity of units. It easily has twice as many units as almost any other codex, and many people are calling for more with the inclusion of traitors, traitor vehicles, and mutants. Now having that many units, having them all be unique (because we know the uproar that happens if two units are similar), and have them all be balanced and effective is an unbelievable challenge.

What makes this worse is the cult lists (don't get me wrong, I love the cult lists). Now GW takes the CSM list, and balances all the 3-4 dozen or so units. Now, they have to make sure that when someone plays a tzeench army (reducing that unit availability to somehting close to 6-12) that the army is still balanced. This stuff wasn't done in C:SM. While a marine player can, using traits, make a biker-based army, GW doesn't guaruntee that it will be a balanced, effective force. They don't need to guaruntee that every army a player can think up is effective, just that it won't be more powerful than the standard list.

Things I think we will see

- cult units being bought as a whole, already with an aspiring champion and set at their sacred number (daemons may also follow this trend)
- some changes to the summoning rules (I don't think many are needed, but I think they will inevitably change)
- a simplifying of the legion-specific lists, particularly those which are chaos undivided
- possible inclusion of a unit entry representing traitors/mutants (I could see them being mutants in the entry, but for +Y points they could be upgraded to traitors with improved stats and equipment, like +1 BS and given a lasgun, quick, simple and one unit entry)
- Chosen unit entry still allowing terminators and non-terminators, but having them just be 2 different troops types which can be added to teh unit (ie like Initiates and neophytes for BT). Give them a cheap standard armament which can be upgraded.

Foehammer

El_Phen
08-01-2007, 14:01
Personally, I wont be happy if (or when as it now seems) the Ork Codex is pushed back in development for WHATEVER reason. That book has not been right for far too long and, to be perfectly honest, bar a few horrible errors the Chaos Codex is perfectly playable under the current rules-set. I believe that I'll go with the other people on here asking for a single codex for all Chaos ala 2nd ed. Make it bigger than the current one certainly. Give the Lost and the Damned their own section (I believe the section including all manner of strange beasties and cultist armies in the 2nd ed codex was CALLED Lost and Damned) and expand on the Cult armies/Traitor Legions as required.

Whatever is decided all I ask is that the Orks not be shoved aside once again. They need, and deserve, GW's full attention. Chaos doesn't.

sanctusmortis
08-01-2007, 14:30
I imagine, as has been said, they're only doing it due to the problems in getting the Orks ready. People need to stop looking at it as being the reason Orks get pushed back, and look at it is being pushed forward due to the Orks.

Anyway, 3 books maximum for me. I can see the need to expand the Chaos Gods to make them a bit more than Traits, for definite, and this is going to be about tweaks after all so why not. So, a Legions book (covering, natch, the Legions, and the various scattered Traitor Marines), a Hordes book (mutants, traitor guard, etc), and a Dedicated book (for the 4 deity-tied Legions).

My reasoning for this? Anyone can bear a Mark, but being truly DEDICATED should confer more. Why shouldn't being a fully dedicated member of a deity-linked Legion give you bigger boons from said deity than someone merely marked out? As such, the rules for Marks should be in the Legions book, to which I still see Hordes as a supplementary section (but GW doesn't like that sort of thing any more, apparently), but the Dedicated Legions should get more. After all, they've been in the service of their patron since the Heresy, and I imagine that has conferred all sorts of special boons on them, never mind the special wargear their patron has gifted them/led them to.

gorgon
08-01-2007, 14:37
And who the heck ever said Chaos wouldn't get several full codices? :eyebrows:

I'm not following you at all. The BA, DA or SW players reference the v4 SM codex instead of the now-out-of-print v3 version where their *subcodex* demands.

That's different than having two *full* Chaos codicies concurrently legal. And the only other options are telling (for instance) WE players to shelve their armies or play them as undivided CSMs, or handling Khorne armies in a general way in the v4 codex and saving the WE-specific stuff for their full codex.

Depending on what happens, there still could be "shoehorning" going on, if that's your point. But the situations are different.


Then after that release a Codex: Lost and the Damned. This would allow the LatD to get a list, and some sweet models.

I'm currently building an army using the LatD list. And personally, I don't see LatD as a full codex. More than half the units in my army are from the CSM book, and I don't see LatD as a distinct army so much as what the CSM codex should be in the first place. I'd be more than happy with one, true Chaos codex (and some full codicies for the WE, DG, EC and TS players).

onodera
08-01-2007, 14:51
The problem with splitting Chaos into several codices is that you can combine everyfacet of Chaos into one army right now.
You can have LatD with Traitor Tanks, Obliterators and MoK Champions.

If GW makes Codex: Chaos Book 1: Undivided, then people who play Mark-heavy Black Legion (for example, Death Guard with Havocs) will be realy upset, because GW has just broken their army.

If GW makes Codex: Chaos Book 1: "Undivided and a couple of pages about other Marks", then people who play Death Guard with Havocs will be more or less satisfied, until Codex: Chaos Book 2: "A lot more about other marks" comes out, because they'll have to choose between getting Marked goodies (more wargear, more units) or getting Undivided units. Of course, GW might allow combining the Codices freely, but then I'd rather wait for a really thick single Codex, letting Orks go first.

I think the best way for GW would be to publish Codex: Chaos Book 1: LatD, with different mutants, traitors, Blood Pact guys and other assorted scum and make unit references to a CSM codex. And *then*, later, publish Codex: Chaos Book 2: CSM, which will replace the current one.

Look at it this way: this summer GW made several armies illegal: Craftworld Eldar, Kult of Speed, Steel Legion, 13th Company, Cadian Shock Troops, Ulthwe Strike Force and LatD.
All High Eldar armies have been merged into one Codex. Steel Legion has almost no extra rules and can be played using regular IG Codex. 13th Company and CST are not so unique and popular. Kult of Speed and LatD were the major hits, so these are the armies GW is probably going to remake, either by including them into the main Codex, or making a new large Codex.

Stingray_tm
08-01-2007, 14:56
Where are

Codex: Hive Fleet Behemoth
Codex: Bad Moonz
Codex: Saim-Hann

?

It already sucks, having more Space Marines Codizes (counting Grey Knights and Chaos as Marines) than all other races combined...

So i am totally against Legion specific Codizes.

jfrazell
08-01-2007, 17:23
Where are

Codex: Hive Fleet Behemoth
Codex: Bad Moonz
Codex: Saim-Hann

?

It already sucks, having more Space Marines Codizes (counting Grey Knights and Chaos as Marines) than all other races combined...

So i am totally against Legion specific Codizes.

I agree. I'd be nice and happy with one new chaos dex - Chaos Damned- which would feature all the aforementioned non MEQ coolness. Leave the cults and Undivided Marines with the current codex, thats pretty much them at the current time.

Marshal2Crusaders
09-01-2007, 00:29
if they clean up the current codex and release it in the same month as a lost and the damned army list

TanithScout
09-01-2007, 01:29
while i'd love a whole codex dedicated to my wonderful deathguard, the daunting time/effort aspects of legion specific codexes makes my head spin. suppose i wanted a death guard list with traitors and mutants. undoubtedly id have to have something from codex: induvided, then use my codex: death guard along with codex: latd to make the army. far too many dexes, and the simple time frame. i dont want to be waiting years. 1 codex: csm 1 codex: lost and the damned, that will work just fine

TheEndIsHere
09-01-2007, 03:32
I don't see why GW can't make a ?150? page codex: bigger codex-> more unit entries-> more fun-> more players-> more money-> everyone is happy *except for emos!!*
Bigger is better...

TheEndIsHere

Misanthrope
09-01-2007, 04:15
lol@the jab at emos

What makes most sense for GW to do, from their perspective, would be to either release a somewhat large Codex: Chaos that contains rules for Undivided CSM, Cult CSM, and LatD - or release Codex: CSM that will basically be an updated v3, and later on release Codex: LatD. Codex: LatD will probably be like the supplimentary Loyalist Marine lists in that it will be a sub-codex, containing some unique units but also simply referencing C:CSM and C:IG, with expanded fluff, perhaps some models, etc etc.

The Emperor
09-01-2007, 04:56
Codex: LatD will probably be like the supplimentary Loyalist Marine lists in that it will be a sub-codex, containing some unique units but also simply referencing C:CSM and C:IG, with expanded fluff, perhaps some models, etc etc.

They aren't going to be doing mini-codex's, anymore. And frankly, I'm glad. I don't want to have to go out and buy three different books for one army. Especially since Imperial Guard will have to get a 4th edition Codex. So does Lost and the Damned wait for Imperial Guard to come out, or does it reference the 3rd edition Codex, and become obsolete when the new one comes out?

Servo11
09-01-2007, 05:05
Codex Undivided: non-cult CSM + LatD + summoned lesser Daemons (Bloodletters, Horrors, Daemonettes, Plaguebearers) + cult CSM squads (as elites). Wargear options for Accursed Crozius and Servo Arm (for Dark Apostle and Warsmith).

Khorne: World Eaters CSM + all Khorne Deamons + cult-specific wargear/vehicles/special characters. Possibly with cult-specific LatD.

Nurgle: Death Guard CSM + all Nurgle Daemons + cult-specific wargear/vehicles/special characters. Possibly with cult-specific LatD.

Slaanesh: Emperor's Children CSM + all Slaanesh Daemons + cult-specific wargear/vehicles/special characters. Possibly with cult-specific LatD.

Tzeentch: Thousand Sons CSM and Sorcerors + all Tzeentch Daemons + cult-specific wargear/vehicles/special characters. Possibly with cult-specific LatD.

Possibly combine 4 cult lists into 1 codex.

The Emperor
09-01-2007, 05:07
Is that an actual rumor or is that a whole lot of guessing on your part?

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
09-01-2007, 05:22
One for chaos marines and one for LaTD sounds like the best idea to me. Perhaps a third for daemons too.

sanctusmortis
09-01-2007, 11:13
If daemons get a book, everyone'd probably end up buying 2 books. They're quite a big part of Chaos...

Kriegsherr
09-01-2007, 12:23
I think theres no need for references in codex LatD. The traitor guard stuff should not exactly be the same as the IG Stuff, and while they won't make much different rules for LatD at the start, it doesn't matters if IG stuff get altered later, while Traitor Guard stuff stays the same. Well, at least I don't see the problem.

The same can be said about CSM Stuff. There is no need for CSM Stuff in Codex LatD, no need for references to Defilers or chaos lutenants as I really hope they give LatD Support choices and HQ choices of their own. The only thing I'd like to see is a system like in the =I= codices so you can induct CSM units into a LatD army and vice versa. This would rock and is the best way to get the "chaotic" army that chaos is known for in the fluff.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
09-01-2007, 13:02
I think theres no need for references in codex LatD. The traitor guard stuff should not exactly be the same as the IG Stuff, and while they won't make much different rules for LatD at the start, it doesn't matters if IG stuff get altered later, while Traitor Guard stuff stays the same. Well, at least I don't see the problem.

The same can be said about CSM Stuff. There is no need for CSM Stuff in Codex LatD, no need for references to Defilers or chaos lutenants as I really hope they give LatD Support choices and HQ choices of their own. The only thing I'd like to see is a system like in the =I= codices so you can induct CSM units into a LatD army and vice versa. This would rock and is the best way to get the "chaotic" army that chaos is known for in the fluff.

Yeah i have to AGREE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

first book should be Codex:Chaos Space Marines including cults /big one/ and 4 other undivided legions
second book should be Codex:Lost and the Damned including their cult lists

and if you only can take 1HQ 1Elite and 2 Troop choice from one of them to another i'll be happy

There is no need for separade GODS codices !!!!!!
and no need for eldarish layout !!!!!

i hate what they do with Space Marines - it should be
-Codex:Codex Space Marines
-Codex:Chapter of Legends including:
*Dark Angels
*Blood Angels
*Salamander
*Raven Guard
*Iron Hands
*Imperial Fists

-Codex:Space Wolves
-Codex:Black Templar

the White Scars doesnt have much support and while they use non codex structure they will probably end up in Codex:Chapter of Legends

shutupSHUTUP!!!
09-01-2007, 13:08
I disagree. Chaos have so many units the best way to balance them would be to have several self contained codexes that don't cross over. The difference with Deamhunters etc is that you can't really unbalance an Imperial list by adding Grey Knights because they are so expensive for the privelage of being able to take therm, the allies are of debatable worth overall for what they do. In this vein, I doubt LatD or CSM want to be the "overpriced" codex to stop the other being unbalanced.

Anyway, there is nothing stopping them from just adding some CSM units into a self-contained LATD codex and leaving the CSM codex "pure".

I like the Eldar codex because it respects the force organisation chart, the Chaos Codex should too (looking at you Iron Warriors).

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
09-01-2007, 13:16
I disagree. Chaos have so many units the best way to balance them would be to have several self contained codexes that don't cross over. The difference with Deamhunters etc is that you can't really unbalance an Imperial list by adding Grey Knights because they are so expensive for the privelage of being able to take therm, the allies are of debatable worth overall for what they do. In this vein, I doubt LatD or CSM want to be the "overpriced" codex to stop the other being unbalanced.

Anyway, there is nothing stopping them from just adding some CSM units into a self-contained LATD codex and leaving the CSM codex "pure".

I Disagree with you - there are some unbalanced thing in codex:CSM but option to take cultists,mutants and traitors doesnt unbalance entire codex and the unbalanced things will be fixed/IW/

I like the Eldar codex because it respects the force organisation chart, the Chaos Codex should too (looking at you Iron Warriors).

Yes IW should respect it too and gest Oblits as HS and they will be fine

Achilles
09-01-2007, 13:18
Codex Undivided: non-cult CSM + LatD + summoned lesser Daemons (Bloodletters, Horrors, Daemonettes, Plaguebearers) + cult CSM squads (as elites). Wargear options for Accursed Crozius and Servo Arm (for Dark Apostle and Warsmith).

Not a bad option. would u mix LatD units with CSM? And what about Greater Deamons and Marked Lords/Princes?

Would such a list need a Troop Choice Undivided Deamon? (a 'Apparation'? stats as a Guardsman, 2 Att, gives -2 Ld in CC, Deamonic, For Example...)

Bioh@zard
09-01-2007, 13:22
Let's just hope there is an entry for creating new Greater Daemons and daemon troops, like they put in Codex: Daemonhunters.

It might even be something like tyranid gaunts: a base daemon stat line, with the possibility to add some characteristics that if used to create one of the god-specific daemons like daemonettes, comes out slightly more expensive.

As for the codices, I don't think they will be disassembling the Undivided armies into strictly undivided and strictly god-specific. Codex: CSM and Codex: Chaos (ie LatD) sounds the most obvious, with a number of daemons etc that appear in both 'dexes. The current line of codices usually tend toward stand alone codices. Look at Black Templars: no real need to get the Marine codex with that one. Why would they be splitting up Chaos Space Marines into X books that you need to combine to get an undivided army?

MarikLaw
09-01-2007, 13:31
Let's just hope there is an entry for creating new Greater Daemons and daemon troops, like they put in Codex: Daemonhunters.

It might even be something like tyranid gaunts: a base daemon stat line, with the possibility to add some characteristics that if used to create one of the god-specific daemons like daemonettes, comes out slightly more expensive.

As for the codices, I don't think they will be disassembling the Undivided armies into strictly undivided and strictly god-specific. Codex: CSM and Codex: Chaos (ie LatD) sounds the most obvious, with a number of daemons etc that appear in both 'dexes. The current line of codices usually tend toward stand alone codices. Look at Black Templars: no real need to get the Marine codex with that one. Why would they be splitting up Chaos Space Marines into X books that you need to combine to get an undivided army?


Personally I dont think it will be "Undivided and then everything else", I think it will be primary chaos legions in the first book (Black Legion & Lost and the Damned) and then World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons. The primary Chaos Codex will still probably have rules and gifts from each god, however the dedicated Codecies (World Eaters, Death Guard, etc) will have the same that the primary codex had for that specific Chaos God, plus more, not to mention an army more themed around that specific God than just a "Vanilla Chaos Gods" army.

As for creating your own Daemons, dont keep your hopes up.

Achilles
09-01-2007, 13:38
Let's just hope there is an entry for creating new Greater Daemons and daemon troops, like they put in Codex: Daemonhunters.

It might even be something like tyranid gaunts: a base daemon stat line, with the possibility to add some characteristics that if used to create one of the god-specific daemons like daemonettes, comes out slightly more expensive.

Not a bad idea, again. but chaos already has so much 'customisability'. wouldnt this be over the top?

Achilles
09-01-2007, 13:41
The primary Chaos Codex will still probably have rules and gifts from each god, however the dedicated Codecies (World Eaters, Death Guard, etc) will have the same that the primary codex had for that specific Chaos God, plus more, not to mention an army more themed around that specific God than just a "Vanilla Chaos Gods" army.

Like Cult specific LatD, rather than Generic. More Gifts from the Gods tuned to your army (Scout for the World Eaters :angel: ). And just more plain coolness

For Example, I would like to see something different for Khorne than just berserker madmen. (All Berzerkers are Khorne, but not all Khorne is a Berserker)

Lyinar
09-01-2007, 14:52
I can't see them making an Undivided Codex without Marks other than Undivided. After all, Black Legion strikeforces can have, with a little work, representatives of all four Chaos Gods (three squads and a secondary character can be given deity-specific Marks, and that's not even counting daemons, or dedicating the vehicles to whichever god). My current BL list has Khorne, Slaanesh, and Undivided models, led by an Undivided character.

Also, the current GT rules package for the US includes all of the lists from Eye of Terror, Armageddon, and Storm of Chaos that haven't yet been superseded by a dedicated Codex, so technically, LatD are still legal, at least here.

MarikLaw
09-01-2007, 15:04
I can't see them making an Undivided Codex without Marks other than Undivided. After all, Black Legion strikeforces can have, with a little work, representatives of all four Chaos Gods (three squads and a secondary character can be given deity-specific Marks, and that's not even counting daemons, or dedicating the vehicles to whichever god). My current BL list has Khorne, Slaanesh, and Undivided models, led by an Undivided character.

Also, the current GT rules package for the US includes all of the lists from Eye of Terror, Armageddon, and Storm of Chaos that haven't yet been superseded by a dedicated Codex, so technically, LatD are still legal, at least here.


Thats probably because the Codex wont see release until after the GT season is over, or too far into the GT season for it to be mandatory instead of the LatD, who knows.

Captain Stuart
09-01-2007, 15:18
How do people think Forgeworld's Imperial Armor with traitor guard will figure into these Chaos books?

Kriegsherr
09-01-2007, 15:23
I disagree. Chaos have so many units the best way to balance them would be to have several self contained codexes that don't cross over. The difference with Deamhunters etc is that you can't really unbalance an Imperial list by adding Grey Knights because they are so expensive for the privelage of being able to take therm, the allies are of debatable worth overall for what they do. In this vein, I doubt LatD or CSM want to be the "overpriced" codex to stop the other being unbalanced.

Anyway, there is nothing stopping them from just adding some CSM units into a self-contained LATD codex and leaving the CSM codex "pure".

I like the Eldar codex because it respects the force organisation chart, the Chaos Codex should too (looking at you Iron Warriors).

Well, if the ability to take ONE of a given unit from another codex unbalances a codex, then the unit taken from the other codex is broken in the first place. I don't think the Sisters are really overpriced, and their choices are really devastating against a range of armies, yet I never heard a lot of "cheese" cries about IG beeing able to get Sisters Allies (normally they are just happy that not the whole army are sisters ;))... I'm not saying they are broken, but they are on par with other codices.

So As long as you are not able to take all choices from the other codex but are limited in a way like the Inquisition codex rules, I really fail to see any balancing problems. And if some Tourny blokes whine about it, they can make crossover armies non-tourny-legal. I frikkin' don't care. Just give me fun, fluffy armies for fun/hobby play, and make all tourny restrictions apply to it in a seperate document instead of writing the whole dex for tourny use... :rolleyes:

I really hope they don't do separate legion-specific codices. It can be done in one big codex for starters, and it would take away space for other chaos armies even more than Marine-armies in general take up space of other armies.

Tymell
09-01-2007, 15:24
But having both the 3rd ed codex and a 4th ed "undivided" codex concurrently "legal" goes against everything GW's trying to do these days. And that would be the situation for anyone with cult armies if the new chaos codex was literally undivided only...they'd still have to use the 3rd ed. codex or shelve their army until their book was released, perhaps years down the road. And that's why I think people shouldn't panic...it makes NO sense and makes things 10x more complicated, not simpler.

That's precisely why I'm worried by this.


As others have said, I'm guessing the other codicies (if it happens this way) will be for specific legions, not specific chaos powers.

I agree that way makes a lot more sense, and hopefully will be what comes to pass. But the whole split codex thing still seems daft to me. Ultimately the specific legions could very easily be made with any default Chaos army list. If they're upgrading the legions to have more about them that's unique (rules, units, etc), then that's a different story and might grab my interest.

THE KAPPTIN
09-01-2007, 15:32
If they're upgrading the legions to have more about them that's unique (rules, units, etc), then that's a different story and might grab my interest.

As far as I can tell, doing that would be the only reason to redo the codexes separately. Like a chaos version of codex: BT and codex: DA.


I think it might be cool to have a separate book for each alignment. It would allow them to play very differently from each other and would simplify a lot of things.
I expect Undivided players will still have access to all types of daemons, as well as probably the more essential marked troops (read: berzerkers - the only ones that really have their own models). If not all marks.
Man, I, for one, can't wait to see how they make marks of chaos much more efficient and intuitive.

gorgon
09-01-2007, 15:45
I agree that way makes a lot more sense, and hopefully will be what comes to pass. But the whole split codex thing still seems daft to me. Ultimately the specific legions could very easily be made with any default Chaos army list. If they're upgrading the legions to have more about them that's unique (rules, units, etc), then that's a different story and might grab my interest.

Yeah, who knows what will happen. But it seems like the answer might be staring us in the face with how they're handling SMs and the loyalist big 4. You can build a furious charging jump pack-heavy SM army with the SM codex's trait system, but only Blood Angels will have access to Death Company, etc. Fleshing out the Chaos "big 4" in terms of fluff, rules and miniatures (and really giving all of the above the right feel) might be pretty darn cool.

At least, I hope that's how it works out...

Misanthrope
09-01-2007, 17:31
Mm, World Eaters Furioso...

I still don't like it. I don't like that my World Eaters army (my ONLY army) may be shelved for months/years because GW decides it can make more money by making me buy two codecies instead of one.

Deafwing
09-01-2007, 18:25
I'm not so sure that the Chaos codex really needs work that badly. I play chaos sometimes and they don't seem to suffer horribly in 4th edition. It'd be far better for other, older codecies to be revised *cough* orks *cough*.

I would like to see some more options in terms of the model range though. A plastic chaos lord/sorcerer would be a nice start. Maybe a plastic 'dread too (with 2 DCCWs? plz?). And I wish my Khorny Daemon Prince with berzerker glaive and wings was still legal...dare to dream...

Deafwing

giner
09-01-2007, 18:29
If they have to make chaos more thean one codex then I want to see:
-Codex: Chaos
All deamons (maybe not greater), normal CSMs (including specialist, basic marked CSMs (no specialists) and LATD
-Codex: Chaos Gods (or similar)
God specific stuff (ie same as generally as undecided but marked) but with four separate bits for point cost. They could share the unit fluff section if they separated the gods in that bit.

Servo11
09-01-2007, 19:43
Not a bad option. would u mix LatD units with CSM? And what about Greater Deamons and Marked Lords/Princes?

Would such a list need a Troop Choice Undivided Deamon? (a 'Apparation'? stats as a Guardsman, 2 Att, gives -2 Ld in CC, Deamonic, For Example...)

- LatD leader could get CSM choices as Elites only, I like the idea of a CSM lord taking CSM and LatD choices... feels more "Chaos".

- In a "Chaos Undivided" book, I would not allow Greater Daemons or marks. Undivided Daemon Princes would be fine.

- No undivided Daemon. In fact, get rid of Furies. I see this list as more of a Chaos-as-Heritics. Leave the Daemons for the Cult-specific armies.

theplourde
09-01-2007, 19:49
- LatD leader could get CSM choices as Elites only, I like the idea of a CSM lord taking CSM and LatD choices... feels more "Chaos".

- In a "Chaos Undivided" book, I would not allow Greater Daemons or marks. Undivided Daemon Princes would be fine.

- No undivided Daemon. In fact, get rid of Furies. I see this list as more of a Chaos-as-Heritics. Leave the Daemons for the Cult-specific armies.

Well the army as it is now can certainly be played that way, but there are those of us who like to have a force with one of every marked unit (3 elites and a marked dreadnought) as well as deamons from the various gods. Don't deny us that option just because you don't like it.

Servo11
09-01-2007, 20:55
Well the army as it is now can certainly be played that way, but there are those of us who like to have a force with one of every marked unit (3 elites and a marked dreadnought) as well as deamons from the various gods. Don't deny us that option just because you don't like it.

I agree it is great to have some marked units, hence the cult-specific elites and lesser daemons I listed. What I would personally like best is a sprawling horde with units from LatD, undivided CSM, and cult-specific CSM. I just don't think a 200 page codex will be coming out.

This is not a wish-list, it is a prediction based on past releases and small amount of evidence from this forum. I think GW will limit the marks in undivided armies so cult armies are more unique.

And as powerful as I think my words are, I do not have the ability to "deny you an option". GW just does not seem to care that much about what I think.

bloody_sabbath
09-01-2007, 22:50
The codex will most likely be a LatD/ Chaos Renegades book allowing CSM allies. That way CSM stay the same and the FW models get used more.

Probably:

-Beefed up Big mutants
-Cultists like the old White Dwarf rules

The Dude
09-01-2007, 22:58
Just give me fun, fluffy armies for fun/hobby play, and make all tourny restrictions apply to it in a seperate document instead of writing the whole dex for tourny use... :rolleyes:

Sad as it is, Kriegsherr, I have to go the other way on this one. Games Workshop has created a monster with the introduction of tournies, and now they need to chain it up. Unfortunately this means writing the Codices for tournament use. This is, I think, why they introduced the RAW policy.

By tightening up the rules and making them fair for tournament play, they can ensure the tournaments are as fair and balanced as possible.

After all, you can bend or break as many rules as you like in a friendly, can't you :)

Fear is the mind killer
09-01-2007, 23:06
I'd much prefer it to stay in its current format. After all, the main advantage of undivided black legion is the ability to take extra fast attack or heavy support choices as elites by giving them different marks of chaos.

If they split the book into undivided and cult where would the black legion get their rules from?

Once they do a new chaos codex though (has to be after orks, I feel sorry for them at having to wait so long for an update) I hope that they clamp down on chummy combinations, as in Khorne armies being happy to include Nurgle or Tzeentch units as Elites choices. Fanatical armies tend to hate anything that doesn't agree with them 100%, let alone worship the wrong god. To represent rivalries between K & S and T & N I'd say don't let an undivided detachment contain units with marks of rival gods and don't let cult armies include marks other than that of its leader.

I also hope that they make sacred numbers more important by giving every army dedicated to them a bonus, not just Emperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters and Thousand Sons.

Also I hope that they allow non-rubric Tzeentchian marines. He must have converts apart from 1000 sons surely?

Ravenous
10-01-2007, 00:00
That is a shame that the orks got pushed back again.

I can see daemons being toned down i.e. having them come down and only be able to assault.

A problem that can arise is if all the books can be mixed. And if they cant that means undivided is just marines, traitors and mutants. No blood thirsters, Daemonettes or possibly even Daemon princes.

Having more books will just mean we have more area to cover to try and find rules, completely nullifying the need for 5 codices.

I think chaos should expect big changes, in other words you might get something to distract you long enough before you realize they castrated you.

thunderwolf
10-01-2007, 00:04
I'd like to see more variation in marked troops- non-Rubric Tzeentch, as has been mentioned; Khorne worshippers that like their big guns, as opposed to being axe-wielding loonies, that sort of thing. Moreso, though, I'd like to see the Lost and the Damned angle played up much more.

Dark Apostle197
10-01-2007, 00:09
I hope they do not make a codex for every cult. Not even every god. I don't want my Word Bearers to be just black legion for too long. It then gets rid of the reason I started Chaos... To have an evil chaplain :)

Ravenous
10-01-2007, 00:15
I hope they do not make a codex for every cult. Not even every god. I don't want my Word Bearers to be just black legion for too long. It then gets rid of the reason I started Chaos... To have an evil chaplain :)

Well eldar lost all the "unique" lists so Im guessing it will happen to all the undivided lists as well.

So you can have obliterator heavy wordbearers with stupid wing helmets!:D

The seperate patron lists sound a bit silly unless they plan to give them insane things (cannon of khorne?). Which does have me curious.

Fear is the mind killer
10-01-2007, 00:56
Hopefully there will be some retuning of the undivided legions to make them more popular and worthy. Word Bearers could use an edge, perhaps the ability to re-roll for summoning daemons, as could Alpha Legion, who could perhaps be allowed bigger cult squads like the one that appeared in chapter approved years ago.

And of course Iron Warriors need toning down, perhaps making the minimum squad size 10 as this would avoid upsetting people who have 4 vehicles and 9 obliterators and would avoid the 2 Troops choices consisting of just 2 5-man squad with the las plas combo. Or perhaps have Obliterators as heavy support? That would help keep the iron warrior armies varied.

The Dude
10-01-2007, 01:18
I don’t think that all the legions need to be “special”, just playable. That was the problem with the Craftworld Eldar lists. They tacked on a bunch of special rules which inevitably made the deviant lists much more attractive than the regular one.

In my opinion, any options that alter how an army looks or plays should be there to give the player that chance to run with a theme, not open up opportunities to play a cheese-fest.

As long as there are options like Cursed Crozius’, Cultists, and Imperial Tanks, the various named legions WILL be playable. Yes, the players may need to change their army or playing style, but them’s the breaks. It happens all the time, and it is for the better.

As long as the Codex as a whole is fair using any combination of units, and the available options can be used to represent the current undivided legions as well as any other NEW force a player may invent, it will be perfectly fine.

Codex Eldar is the first of a new breed. Expect all new books to follow it’s lead.

The Emperor
10-01-2007, 04:12
I'm hoping the new Chaos Codex will be along the lines of Codex: Eldar, in that Codex: Eldar allows for all Aspect Warrior armies, all Guardian armies, all Jetbike armies, as well as mixed armies. So what I'd like to see is the following:

Chaos Marines, Daemons, and Cultists all in the same army list. Not only that, but I want to see Cultists and Daemons represented in every selection on the Force Organization Chart (HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy Support). That way, a player would be able to play pretty much any Chaos army he likes. Whether it be a pure Chaos Marine force, a pure Chaos Cultist force, a pure Daemon army force, or a mix (Chaos Marines with a couple Cultists, a Cultist force with a couple Chaos Marines in support, Chaos Marines with daemonic support, Cultists with daemonic support, etc).

I'd also like to see Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines, and Noise Marines stay (albeit as Elites selections). They can be Troops choices in the respective Codex's for their gods, or they can be taken as Troops so long as the army commander has the mark of their god (like now). They also need to come out with a more generic Tzeentch unit, one which represents followers of Tzeentch from other Chaos Legions. They shouldn't be subject to the Rubric of Ahriman like the Thousand Sons.

Just my opinion, of course. But damn if it wouldn't be nice if one could use the Chaos Codex to make an effective all Cultist army with no Chaos Marines, or with a couple in support, or the reverse of that.

Servo11
10-01-2007, 04:19
The Dude: Well said.

The Emperor: I absolutely agree... but as we "know" there will be multiple codexes, how do you think they should be split?

The Emperor
10-01-2007, 04:26
I imagine the rest will be based around a single god, or a legion dedicated to one of the four powers. Codex: Khorne/World Eaters, Codex: Slaanesh/Emperor's Children, Codex: Nurgle/Death Guard, Codex: Tzeentch/Thousand Sons, or something along those lines.

As for what'll be in them, cultists, daemons, and the basic cult marines (Khorne Berserkers, Noise Marines, etc) are my guess. I imagine, though, that if they're gonna do a whole army, then they're going to have to put in a bit more variety. Not every World Eater can be a plain old Khorne Berserker. If they're the Troops, then what're the Elites? Berserkers with improved stats and power weapons, maybe? Who knows. Whatever they end up doing, though, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing the end result.

Occulto
10-01-2007, 04:39
As for what'll be in them, cultists, daemons, and the basic cult marines (Khorne Berserkers, Noise Marines, etc) are my guess. I imagine, though, that if they're gonna do a whole army, then they're going to have to put in a bit more variety. Not every World Eater can be a plain old Khorne Berserker. If they're the Troops, then what're the Elites? Berserkers with improved stats and power weapons, maybe? Who knows.

Entirely possible. It might be that you can take "normal" cult troops in an undivided force, but units like cult-terminators could be restricted to the "Big Four" legions.

I'd like to see that.

I'd also like to see more emphaisis on home-grown CSM armies. It's weird how so many Chaos players stick to the established colour schemes, compared to the number of home-grown SM chapters or Eldar Craftworlds.

LictorIntheGrass
10-01-2007, 04:42
Emperor, now that you mention it, that does make sense. We'd probably see variates in tanks, elites, and daemons. Daemons seem kinda narrow to me right now, the choices that is. There should be a varity of them for each god! I can't wait to see the varity of fast attack too. Of course GW could always halfass these codexes, happen in the past with rushing things.

Occulto
10-01-2007, 04:47
DAEMON ENGINES!!!!

Brass Scorpions, Plague Towers etc.

What self respecting Thousand Sons player wouldn't want their own Silver Towers of Tzeentch? :D

Sanath
10-01-2007, 07:12
yeach towers of tzeentch look cool to me:eek: We need at least amendment with chosen possessed(marks nad abilities) nad point costs + a couple of new units....

I'm really afraid how GW will do this change into 2+ codex'es ....half of the 3rd edition available?? or we're not playing cult specyfic legion till opur book come out(sooo my thousand sons would become pretty undivided guys till end of 2008 or even later:wtf: )

omricon
10-01-2007, 12:26
There are only TWO kinds of Thousand Sons, Sorcererererers and rubrics because of the spell. There is no such thing as a normal Mark of Tzentch on a normal marine.

There may be potential for cultists or something though.

Minos Engele
10-01-2007, 12:29
As I've already said, I think multiple books are redundant. LatD units and a clear layout of Legion restrictions is the only thing the Codex really needs.

Should there be multiple books then 2 is most likely. Either Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codes: LatD (as we have now but more synchronised) or Codex: Chaos Undivided (LatD, current deamons and Undivided/unmarked Legions) and Codex: Chaos Divided. (LatD, current and new deamons, Marked Legions)
It would make sense that the Dedictated Legions are able to summon different kinds of deamons and that they have new troop/elite choices.

Maybe add a rule that Word Bearers are also able to summon different deamons.

I really doubt GW is going to release 5 different codexes (sp?). Unless they are all released at once. If that is going to happen I'd expect something simmilar to the example above (more deamons, new troops/elites) but more of them.

gorgon
10-01-2007, 13:54
I'd also like to see more emphaisis on home-grown CSM armies. It's weird how so many Chaos players stick to the established colour schemes, compared to the number of home-grown SM chapters or Eldar Craftworlds.

So maybe Codex: Khorne isn't exactly Codex: World Eaters but Codex: Chosen of Khorne, which covers World Eaters and other Legions/sub-Legions devoted *entirely* to Khorne. It's kinda like successor chapters for loyalists. When you start thinking about it, these books have a ton of potential, and it doesn't mean that regular Khornate stuff won't be available to generic Chaos armies.

Having said all this, I'd still be surprised if GW doesn't make some allowance for the World Eaters, etc. players in the first book. If they do make 5 books, it could be years before some of them are released.

Yorkiebar
10-01-2007, 14:32
I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see additional codices for some of the specific legions - after all, this is GAMES WORKSHOP we're talking about. Probably about 12 pages each, lumped together without proper thought or fixing, no new background, no original art apart from the cover and then put on the shelves for 'only' £8 apiece. :(

[/pessimist] Well, they might not be that bad. I haven't seen how good/bad the BT and DA ones are yet...

EDIT: And I suppose they're more likely to do Codex: Legions than Codex: Thousand Sons, Codex: DeathGuard etc.

reds8n
10-01-2007, 14:43
Codex Eldar is the first of a new breed. Expect all new books to follow it’s lead.



QFT. Personally I don't think they'll do separate books for each and every legion/god. Just the one and then up to you to tailor your lists to capture the flavour of each army--JUST LIKE IN THE ELDAR BOOK.

I have heard that daemon princes will be a separate entry, with options that you then pick and chosse--eg. 1 type of movement power, mutations for extra attacks/s/t etc. Also heard that they will be immune to insta kills ala phoenix lords.

Necronlord3
10-01-2007, 15:08
I recently visited my near by Games Workshop store (not a local hobby shop an actual GW store) to pick up supplies for my new Word Bearers army. When I picked up two boxes of daemons one of the workers informed me that I should by them now because they are being redone. This seemed odd to me because the Chaos daemons are fairly new (compared to other models). He told me that due to the increased intrest from younger players, GW is going to make the Daemons more kid friendly. Paticularly the topless Daemonettes.

I can see some of the models being unappealing to parents but just how young of a demographic should Games Workshop be aiming for? Considering that 40k is a violent, gorefest, wargame that requires sharp knives, wire cutters, spraypaint and super glue to begin playing.

My suggestion to Games Workshop, if indeed this information is accurate, is that if they do wish to aim for a younger target audience how about designing a beginers Warhammer 40k and fantasy with a range of pre-assembled and possibly pre-painted minatures. Something with all the core rules to 40k but with less of the options and advanced rules to make the game easier for children to understand. It could also be quick and easy for them to get into without having to drop a minimum of 300 bucks and a ton of time building. As they get older they could then move on to regular 40k.

Kjell
10-01-2007, 15:16
While I have heard rumours of the daemons getting redone as plastics, I don't think that they will be made inherently more kid-friendly. Two reasons:

1) The idea of bare breasts somehow being unfriendly to children is absurd. For crying out loud, infants have them thrust into their faces on a daily basis and they take no harm from it.

2) We're talking about daemons. Daemons. No, the sculptors do not have to go out of their way to make them offensive, but daemons are meant to be nasty-looking things.

Darkseer
10-01-2007, 15:16
GW won't be producing any new ones...not until the next summer of chaos anyway. The daemons all look fine to me.

Necronlord3
10-01-2007, 15:20
I agree with both of you and $40 for a box of 10 daemons is a great price point that doesn't need to be redone in plastic.

wickedvoodoo
10-01-2007, 15:21
i kinda like all the current daemon models, if chaos gets redone, id rather see god specific marines get new plastics, and this is a big one, a plastic lord/sorceror kit like the SM force commander one, that would be sweet.

Kjell
10-01-2007, 15:26
While plastic daemons would be interesting I must say that I prefer daemons in metal. They've always been in metal and they've always been a comparatively small, elite force. It's just... how things have always been. And in this case I think that the feel of metal miniatures adds to the feel of the daemon army as a whole.

They have metal miniatures because they're expensive elite troops and thus do not require large numbers to make a decently sized army. They're expensive elite troops because they're only available as metal miniatures and would b pricey to make a horde army out of.



It's a weird "fake logic" (fogic!) loop, but it just feels right that they're metal. It's one of the few cases where I consider metal miniatures to be inherently superior over plastic ones.

Fear is the mind killer
10-01-2007, 15:40
There are only TWO kinds of Thousand Sons, Sorcererererers and rubrics because of the spell. There is no such thing as a normal Mark of Tzentch on a normal marine.
But there should be. I had a long discussion on B & C (might have already mentioned this in this thread but I didn't see it) about how to represent Tzeentch worshippers who aren't from the 1k sons legion, and we came up with the daemonic mutation rule or psychic powers depending on what their place is in the force org chart. Also you could include chaos spawn in squads to replace special and heavy weapon carriers. See my link for details if you're interested.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
10-01-2007, 15:41
He told me that due to the increased intrest from younger players, GW is going to make the Daemons more kid friendly. Paticularly the topless Daemonettes.
didnt they do that already? and then change it back with the current (stunning) versions?


1) The idea of bare breasts somehow being unfriendly to children is absurd. For crying out loud, infants have them thrust into their faces on a daily basis and they take no harm from it.

2) We're talking about daemons. Daemons. No, the sculptors do not have to go out of their way to make them offensive, but daemons are meant to be nasty-looking things.
agreed x 2, aand quoted for truth. :D

~ Tim

colrouphobic
10-01-2007, 15:42
bah, as long as Forgeworld release the Lord of Change soon I can't be bothered with this.

Maxis Lithium
10-01-2007, 15:45
I have heard nothing regarding re-worked demons. It's more likely that we will see plastic demons IF there are more options in the coming fantasy/40K books for them. If we see "upgradeable" demons, then we will see plastic kits. Usually, you only see plastic kits for models that have more then one option for them.

Daemons have always been unmodifiable. You can't "equip" daemons. They come 'set'.

ChrisLS
10-01-2007, 15:56
I do know that several of the daemon boxes are being discontinued in GW stores - I don't know if that is because they are being redone or just moved to mail order.

Major King
10-01-2007, 15:58
There are no new daemons being made. Some are simply being taken off shelf and the shelf locations are simply being moved to the 40k section rather than Warhammer.

LictorIntheGrass
10-01-2007, 16:02
If they do redo them in plastic it will be so they can decrease their cost and still charge the same price (given they haven't up their price yet, possible they'll be 45 dollars by next fall).

conscript 52
10-01-2007, 16:30
yh ive heard from store people that the deamonetts are gettin taken of cause of to many complaints-its a good thing always hated gettin ripped apart by them

Nebuchadnezzar
10-01-2007, 16:33
it doesn't matter to me anyway because my plauge deamons are skaven plauge monks on rundbases with some conversations of thei waepons (made new ones of the knives and the sticks etc so i have nearli 20 dffret armed ones an wit a litte conversation you can get realy dynamic poses.

i like em a lot more than the metal ones

TheSanityAssassin
10-01-2007, 17:51
As long as the Alpha Legion list i'm building stays viable i'll be content
though maybe I won't sink massive chunks of money into cultist hordes just yet.

Hemlocke
10-01-2007, 18:03
No one plays LaTD because there are no codex and o models for it I would love to play LaTD but I can't, I don't have the money/time to buy that many models and covert them all...


I play LatD more often than I play Emperor's Children.

I'll concede that there's a good bit of effort involved in establishing a LatD force, but it occurs to me as more of a modeler/painter's army than a "gamer's" army.

~Hemlocke

EarlGrey
10-01-2007, 18:06
One would assume that each God Specific codex can be used independently from the main "undivided" codex. With this in mind, it's not too hard to imagine them including god specific cultists and the like (plague zombies for Nurgle!) and their own specific daemons. But as for daemons of undivided, they could have "make your own daemon" with a set of customisations akin to Daemonhunters adversaries. Imagine a plastic box set of customisable daemon bits. It would be brilliant!

Shibboleth
10-01-2007, 18:22
It appears I have not posted on the forum in several weeks so I thought I'd take a few moments to engage other members in conversation. :p :eyebrows:

Anyway, I'm in favour of the one big codex idea, but it seems eventually it will be one big codex, just in five volumes ...so maybe GW could provide some kind of slipcase to put them all in?

I'm excited by the idea of traitor guards joining the ranks, but I'll be happy as long as my Undivided army can still take some Berserker elites, and maybe one of the new Juggernauts. :evilgrin:

Odin
10-01-2007, 19:17
I'd also like to see more emphaisis on home-grown CSM armies. It's weird how so many Chaos players stick to the established colour schemes, compared to the number of home-grown SM chapters or Eldar Craftworlds.

Not that weird - after all, there are around a thousand marine chapters, but there are only 9 Traitor Legions from the time of the Heresy. Of course, there are traitor astartes from after the Heresy, but you can't really have the same status if you're just a traitor chapter - if you weren't at the siege of the Emperor's palace, you're a bit of a noob traitor. ;)

bnf
10-01-2007, 19:41
Of course, there are traitor astartes from after the Heresy, but you can't really have the same status if you're just a traitor chapter - if you weren't at the siege of the Emperor's palace, you're a bit of a noob traitor. ;)

Soooo, the Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors are noobs? :p

DhaosAndy
10-01-2007, 20:09
No just that if you didn't turn traitor when the rush was on your just a Johnny come lately. :D

Dreachon
10-01-2007, 20:09
actually IW were at the siege, they broke down the defences.

The Judge
10-01-2007, 20:27
It's all very confusing about who was where... maybe the codez will sort that out?

Or I could just wait for the novels...

Kriegsherr
10-01-2007, 22:58
Not that weird - after all, there are around a thousand marine chapters, but there are only 9 Traitor Legions from the time of the Heresy. Of course, there are traitor astartes from after the Heresy, but you can't really have the same status if you're just a traitor chapter - if you weren't at the siege of the Emperor's palace, you're a bit of a noob traitor. ;)

Well, true to some degree, but even officially the fluff says some legions have been splitted up (like the Wolrd Eaters) OR operate in independet smaller hordes (like the alpha legion or the Iron Warriors) so I assume even if there wasn't an official split like in the second founding of the loyalists chapters, there are split of successor "Legions" (altough maybe very much smaller than the original legions), that have developed a different colour scheme, name and even traditions from their predecessor legion.

And of course there are the Chaos Marines that leave their legion, and take over the rank of a commander amongst lesser Chaos followers... and if they are lucky, they might be able to found their own legion one day, with other Marines that have left their legion, and/or thanks to the help of fabius bile or any other bioengineer that can reproduce the technique to create marines to some extent, and thanks to bioorgans collected from fallen opposing marines, newly created marines recruited amongst the human followers that have proven most worthy.

Last but not least there are the two legions that got deleted from the official records. No-one knows about their whereabouts, but why shouldn't they appear one day ind the middle of the eye like the 13th company of the woofies? Only that they have fallen to chaos somehow?

There are plenty of reasons to do non-official chaos marine chapters/legions/warbands, and the much more cool look and more personal nature of such a force sure isn't the least important.
I utterly dislike out-of-the-box armies that are painted in official colours.

FashaTheDog
10-01-2007, 22:59
Why make Daemons in plastic if there are no real options for them, as one poster already mentioned. Yes plastic is easier to convert but there are many gamers, myself included, who like metal minis. My Marines and are still mostly metal, except for the PVC drop pods and tanks. And look at the Lictor, the only options availible are if you're taking one, two, three, or none. That's it.

Kriegsherr
10-01-2007, 23:06
If they redo the deamonettes in a "kid-friendly-fashion", I will have a good laugh and will be happy I once bought 30 of the nasty critters.

If they let them disapear from the mail order, I shall send them a very violent letters. The deamonettes are among the best minis ever done by GW, and, for crying out loud, are very mild for the theme they are aiming at.

Really, if they would have let me go insane on them, my slaneshi demons would be even worse for the kids... they would show them how its done properly... SM and stuff, you know (no, I don't mean Space Marines ;)).

They should do NEW kinds of demons.... 2-4 different demons for each god is a little bit to less for a pure demon army.

bloody_sabbath
11-01-2007, 00:05
The only Daemons that need redoing are the greater daemons.

Arkzein
11-01-2007, 00:58
Did hear this rumour myself, not too bothered as I mail order everything but I hope they aren't pulling the 'nettes entirely (Also of the same thinking that metal models are better, can't find the old metal chaos marines for love nor money at the moment). Seems that a hell of a lot of chaos players have them as their favorite model as well and in my book they're definately some of the best models GW have produced. That good it's extremely rare to even see them converted in any great way.

Be nice if they are doing something with daemons in the rules though, seems every dex they never get touched. Would be nice to have a bit of variety and even some wargear or characters. (*wishful thinking*)

EarlGrey
11-01-2007, 01:15
I do keep reading about new daemons in the past few months. But, with the Chaos books coming out end of this year, it does seem possible.
Based on the fact that it's the Undivided book this year (which will be getting my undivided attention... yes, no, anyway... :) ) it would make little sense, given the quality of them, to redo the current god specific daemons. What I put forward is that this rumour could be rooted in the possible creation of plastic generic daemons. This would allow for daemons to be created by the player rather than have to go for a certain god's daemons. Plastic daemons with lots of bits to customise them with. Would be quite an undertaking, and it's probably just me dreaming... but wouldn't it be great!

Trolond
11-01-2007, 01:17
Amen to the redoing of the Greater Daemons. Personally, I hate the greater daemon of Tzeentch, and I really like the Forge World models of Khorne and Nurgle more than GW's.

As to making them more "Kid-Friendly", I can see it now... some little kid playing with the models and ends up choking on a piece. Parents are enraged and GW is sued for millions of dollars...

Days later we begin to see "Not intended for the use of children under the age of 10. CAUTION: Choking Hazard.", then prices get jacked up and they stretch stories and make up new stuff that make it seem dumb... Can anyone say... Bionicle?

FraustyTheSnowman
11-01-2007, 02:47
Perhaps it's my upbringing, having grown up with blackdog Vampire the Masquerade books for most of my life, but just the fact that this rumor has been heard by so many people lowers my already dwindling respect for GW. As if the cartoony orcs arent enough, the hokey hero scaled nine foot long, three feet thick swords arent enough, the hords of disney character powered armor wearing bafoons in every color under the sun arent enough, now, there's a possibility that one of the few decent looking models needs to be edited?

Honestly, I doubt this is true. As much as I hate to say it (as I'm sure I'll wind up eating these words in a few months time when Elmoius Maximus, primarch of the light red marine chapter is released) this sounds too rediculous, even for Games Workshop. It's funy though, one of my groups chaos players recently got married to an old friend of mine, and apparently at a gaming session I wasn't at she had issue with his daemonetts. It made me laugh, because even the christian members of our group responded with a resounding "grow the **** up".

Muncher666
11-01-2007, 02:47
I hope that the "Kidd friendly" thing is a rumour and not the thruet.

If I was a GW store manager, I would chase out the "Kids" out of the store with my Slayer Sword (Which I haven't won yet.) Or have a fairytail time where I tell the extended version of "The Black and White Adeptus Astartes on the Black and White Bike.

NO! to "kid friendly"-ness
I want my models converted, my games gory and my daemons daemonic!

(Sig me if you agree)

Well, for starters as a budding parent, I say screw making them more kid friendly - they're just models, for christ's sake. But 'chasing out' kids from the store is stupid. When I first went into Games Workshop I was 11 years old, and have been playing to this very day (22). Back in those days the redshirts used to practically drag people inside in a frenzy of gaming lust - it was good. I'm not saying I want a bunch of five year olds whacking and breaking models together, but it's just as much for kids as it is for adults. Redshirts these days are way too unfriendly in Australia.

Allan.

ChrisLS
11-01-2007, 02:58
I don't think anyone is talking about getting rid of the daemons, nor changing them to be more PC. More likely this is a decision to move a slow moving product out of stores and to mail order. It might be irritating to not be able to buy them at your FLGS, but I seriously doubt they are disappearing or going "kid friendly".

Please don't view people's apparently rampant speculation as fact.

NightLord
11-01-2007, 06:12
That Chaos book isnt coming this year. (Maybe at the end... Maybe... Christmas needs sales and what not) But the daemons are most likely staying around until than.
I do happen to remember a similar rumor about this many, many months ago on these same forums and yet nothing happened.
The only time I see daemons changing in the near future is with (IF) appocalypse comes out.
Also, I would assume the greater daemons will all get new models after the Daemon princes. Which we should see most of (If not all of) this time next year.

Kriegsherr
11-01-2007, 10:31
I hope they get new models. I agree that the Daemonettes are nearly perfect, and the Khornate daemons are ok, but Nurgle's ones are detestable, and Tzeentch's are just bland. Note that I'm talking about the "troop" models, I can't actually recall what the state of the rest of the stuff is.

Give us more bare-chested female models! Especially elves! :drooling Golden Boy look:

Well, not really with you here.... while I really like the nettes, and also think the nurgle deamons could be better, the horrors are some of the best deamons ever made by gw. True they are more of a generic demontype than "tzeentchi" if you go for the "tzeentchi wants them all to be birdies", but I still think it fits with the mutation and magic theme.
The Khorne deamons on the other hands suck. Why do the deamons of the god of War go to War halfnaked? why didn't they, as mini-avatars of THE dark god of War, get handed the heavy armour they have in the rules? I mean, even in fantasy it wouldn't hurt if they would bump up their armour to heavy or plate armour instead of tthe stupid "mail-loincloth is light armour" thingy. And of course, they deserve the same quality sculpts the nettes got.


On the bare-chested thingy... yeah, it sucks to convert a whole army only to get bare chested all-female slannesh armies. :)

crandall87
11-01-2007, 11:16
I think the problem with chaos is that there are too many different legions all needing their own rules. Do not be surprised if we see some sort of trait system like in codex SM to cover different rules for the undivided legions. I can see cultists being back in the main list too.

Misanthrope
11-01-2007, 11:19
Well, Marks pretty much do the job at the moment. And they'd better bring back Cultists. And add Traitors. And Mutants. And everything else from LatD. They have a chance to really make a very flexible and unique list with Chaos, if they add the ability to mix-and-match Marines and Traitor Guard and Mutants and Militia and Cultists. Then you'd have a complete mess of a force -- exactly how it should be.

Achilles
11-01-2007, 11:59
I have heard nothing regarding re-worked demons. It's more likely that we will see plastic demons IF there are more options in the coming fantasy/40K books for them. If we see "upgradeable" demons, then we will see plastic kits. Usually, you only see plastic kits for models that have more then one option for them.

Daemons have always been unmodifiable. You can't "equip" daemons. They come 'set'.

... Plastic Dryads? what options do they have...

Brimstone
11-01-2007, 23:18
I've merged the new daemons thread into this one, I've also removed some of the more off topic discussions on the anatomy of daemons as it was either leading to the wastes or P&R.

The Warseer Inquisition

Marshal2Crusaders
12-01-2007, 02:05
Plastic Daemons seem possible as they do seem to be wanting to move to more all plastic armies. I once heard (from a redshirt) that games workshop would start selling in toy stores. The move to plastic was so that the stores would sell them( for some reason the cant sell pewter). This was in no way substantiated or believable. If quoted please remove my name.

The chaos codex needs to be trimmed cleaned and streamlined. The Traitor Legions do need their own codex, but, they all need to be grouped in that one codex.

Fear is the mind killer
12-01-2007, 02:32
I have been informed by a reliable redshirt (yes they do exist out there if you know where to look) that GW are moving away from blister packs and going for all boxed sets. This doesn't prove that plastic daemons are going to be made, but it does indicate that this is more likely to happen, as daemons are in high demand from both 40k and WHFB.

Frankly I don't understand why they didn't make plastic daemons years ago.

Lyinar
12-01-2007, 03:08
The Greater Daemons definitely need to be redone... I'd love to see a smaller-scale version of the ForgeWorld Keeper of Secrets for the 'normal' Greater Daemon, instead of the funky-looking, extremely unattractive THING that GW made back in the days of the bald, single-breasted lobster-clawed Daemonettes...

After all, a Daemon that is supposed to be able to seduce pretty much anyone who looks at it MUST look better than that.

The Dude
12-01-2007, 03:25
I once heard (from a redshirt) that games workshop would start selling in toy stores. The move to plastic was so that the stores would sell them( for some reason the cant sell pewter). This was in no way substantiated or believable.

Don't know how things work OS, but here in Oz there are a crap-tin of toy stores that already sell blisters.


If quoted please remove my name.

Oops :angel:


The Greater Daemons definitely need to be redone... I'd love to see a smaller-scale version of the ForgeWorld Keeper of Secrets for the 'normal' Greater Daemon, instead of the funky-looking, extremely unattractive THING that GW made back in the days of the bald, single-breasted lobster-clawed Daemonettes...

After all, a Daemon that is supposed to be able to seduce pretty much anyone who looks at it MUST look better than that.

I much preferred the original "bull" head to the crappy new "conehead" one...

Yrandrasil
12-01-2007, 03:57
I much preferred the original "bull" head to the crappy new "conehead" one...

I could not agree more... I love the new Keeper..except that freaky head...

I'll keep a minotaur head please!

The Dude
12-01-2007, 04:00
It's a pity, because the other new heads were all mild improvements IMO.

thanoson
12-01-2007, 04:47
I miss fiends of Slaanesh. Also, the hermaphradite daemonettes. Beast of Nurgle too.

azazel_fallenangel
12-01-2007, 14:11
I've just used the Thread Search function but not found anything on how word bearers would work with different codexes for differnet cults. I was planning on starting some word bearers, but am not really keen on buying 5 codices for one army. Have i got this fact right or not?

The Emperor
12-01-2007, 14:21
You're not going to need to buy 5 Codex's for one army. I don't know this for certain, but a healthy dose of common sense says that won't be the case. GW doesn't do mini-dex's, anymore. They certainly won't make it so you'll need more then two Codex's for your army list.

Misanthrope
12-01-2007, 14:58
If anything they might fix this by releasing all daemon rules online or something so that you don't have to buy a bunch of books.

The Emperor
12-01-2007, 15:06
Or they could simply print the stats for the appropriate demons in the appropriate Codex. For instance, an Undivided Codex will have the stats for all of them, while a Khorne Codex will only have the stats for Khornate demons.

inq.serge
12-01-2007, 21:13
Well, for starters as a budding parent, I say screw making them more kid friendly - they're just models, for christ's sake. But 'chasing out' kids from the store is stupid.

I was joking.

I hope the new juggernaught will be cool (If there is a new juggernaught)

I wonder if there'll be a new Boobsnake model?

Rlyehable
13-01-2007, 13:44
I am of the school that thinks that they need only 2 Chaos codexes:

1. Chaos Masses: This would cover Traitor Guard, Cults, and Mutants.

2. Chaos Legions: This would cover all Chaos Space Marines

Allow Undivided armies "allies" from Masses to Legions and Legions to Masses. Limit it to 2 choices. Allies do not count as mandatory choices. Some legions may be limited in types of slot choices.

Misanthrope
13-01-2007, 14:08
They'll probably (hopefully?) do it that way. I think a more flexible list would be one split between CSM/LatD, rather than Undivided/Cult.

BrainFireBob
14-01-2007, 06:29
Disclaimer: Yes, we all know Orks are first.

Undivided/Cult's the way to go.

Put the basic Zerkers, etc., in the Undivided list, and the option to buy Marks.

Then, in Cults, Marks are cheaper (or do more), Cult troops are cheaper- and they get the "specialist" units to fill out their lists. In addition to "cult" dreads being cult-only, (whereas you could have "dedicated" dreads in the Undivided dex, see? Like Sonic Dreads vs. dreads dedicated to Slaanesh).

So you could do an Undivided "dedicated" list- but it would be expensive and not do as much as the Cult, *but* gaining access to units the Cults lack.

Released in that manner, Cult players could do the Undivided "version" of their lists- much like now- and then have extra options when the Cult book is released.

Frankly, it makes sense. The cults messed the list too much. Having a sub-set of a list being as powerful as the whole? Doesn't work.

More, LATD can be rolled into both books. Blood Pact into Cults, say, while regular Cultists into Undivided.

loony
14-01-2007, 07:53
What about the idea of having Cult Codex before the Undivided one? Everybody knows that Cults (especially DG and TS) suffer mostly with the current codex. Maybe releasing the Cult version first would make more sense - and of course it would make me happier too :D

Sagatarius
14-01-2007, 10:34
Sure this would help Dg and TS but i think most of the players have undivined armies so it makes more sense to bring this one out first.

N0-1_H3r3
14-01-2007, 12:50
One thing that was mentioned by Gav Thorpe on these very forums a while ago was an intention to increase the divide between 'marked' or 'devoted' troops and the Cult troops - that is, all Khorne Berzerkers have the Mark of Khorne, but not all Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne are Berzerkers. This is especially in the case of Thousand Sons/Mark of Tzeentch, as the Rubric Marines are limited to a single Legion, yet there's no allowance made for Chaos Marines devoted to Tzeentch who aren't rubric marines or sorcerers.

Flatline
14-01-2007, 12:54
A friend of mine was talking to one of the development team at the UK GD and he told me (so don't blame me if it's wrong) that they were talking about putting traitor units into the codex (whatever it is) and even making them a complusery choice. So you would have to take a unit of traitors as a troop choice.

Personally I don't see them being compulsery, it would upset too many players. That said it would fit more with how the Legions are portrayed - as a mix of Guard and Marines. If GW wanted to be complete ****s they could put traitors and mutants as Troops and the CSMs as Elite/HQ/FA. Fill up Heavy Support with daemon engines, dreads and tanks. It would certainly make it different to the Loyalists!

philbrad2
14-01-2007, 13:26
I could see Chaos human troops , cultist and/or mutants as being troops choices in an non CSM chaos army. Possibly beastmen if GW were going the whole hog on this (although I expect these could be classed as muties.)

This would give the player the option of fielding a mutant style LaTD type army, a cultist army or a Chaos guard army. I personally wouldn't like to see them as having CSM units as integral to the armies, a possible add on unit and most definitely the ability to allie such forces but I've never been that confident of having CSM's in such armies, to me seems very much like having a CSM force with a 'meat shield'. Chaos isn't purely CSM's in the same way thre Imperium isn't purely Space Marines If GW want to give players the ability to field a Chaos force away from what has been to date, virtually purely CSM based chaos, they need to remove or restrict the options on making CSMs available to such units/armies.


One thing that was mentioned by Gav Thorpe on these very forums a while ago was an intention to increase the divide between 'marked' or 'devoted' troops and the Cult troops - that is, all Khorne Berzerkers have the Mark of Khorne, but not all Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne are Berzerkers. This is especially in the case of Thousand Sons/Mark of Tzeentch, as the Rubric Marines are limited to a single Legion, yet there's no allowance made for Chaos Marines devoted to Tzeentch who aren't rubric marines or sorcerers.

Got linkage for that I'd be interested to have a looksee.

PhilB
:chrome:

Ravenheart
14-01-2007, 13:34
A friend of mine was talking to one of the development team at the UK GD and he told me (so don't blame me if it's wrong) that they were talking about putting traitor units into the codex (whatever it is) and even making them a complusery choice. So you would have to take a unit of traitors as a troop choice.


If it's true (as I hope), I figure that they will do it in a simmilar manner to the new DA. You have got many different HQ choices, and each affects how your army has to look like.
A chaos lord makes it a mostly marine based army, an arch herectic a LatD like one.
This would also open the door for deamon world armies, where deamons and beasts would be troops choice, by taking a deamon prince or greater deamon as your HQ.

This is, after all, simmilar to how WHFB chaos works, and it imho works fine.

Shibboleth
14-01-2007, 13:54
I would hope that it's not true.
I want to be able to take a mix of traitor guard and chaos marines as troops too, but not as compulsory.

Solinan
14-01-2007, 14:45
I would love to see costumisable daemons, not a random system like in daemonhunters.

They are a troop choice.
A fixed stat line.
A list of daemonic upgrades, like mutations, flight, talons and so on.

You pay a price for the statline, and then have to buy one upgrade.
Perhaps you can buy a secondary upgrade, but this makes them another choice then troop or the second upgrade is a bit more expensive.

Same for a costum greater daemon.

I dont think they should be inferior to marked daemons, but just not have the option of the mark.

Fear is the mind killer
14-01-2007, 14:48
You mean something like this?

http://40kdx.bravehost.com/daemonhordeofminor.html

Personally I would love to see an army of daemons in 40k, hence my making as many of their codexes as I could think of. I really really really don't get why they haven't made plastic daemons.

Solinan
14-01-2007, 14:51
You mean something like this?

http://40kdx.bravehost.com/daemonhordeofminor.html




No more in the line of what I wrote :p

I dont want a daemon army, I want customisable daemons for my Chaos marine army, which I dont have :rolleyes:

I want unmarked, undevoted troop choice daemons

FalseAngel
14-01-2007, 16:07
One problem I see coming up if they release Codex: Chaos Undivided first (which I most look forward to personally) is how will it effect Thousand Sons??? I mean, say they really go for this marked vs. devoted thing, and also they realize that only Thousand Sons have rubric marines, what will the "marked" Tzeentch marines be like and how will actual Thousand Sons players play until the cult codex comes out?

What I mean is... Codex Undivided replaces the 3rd edition CSM Codex for the time being until Cults come out. In the current codex the mark of Tzeentch makes them rubric but in the next codex they more than likely won't. So, how will Thousand Sons players get to use even a pseudo Tzeentch army (all marked, not devoted) when it won't even come close to what the Thousand Sons are about?

Shibboleth
14-01-2007, 16:39
So, how will Thousand Sons players get to use even a pseudo Tzeentch army (all marked, not devoted) when it won't even come close to what the Thousand Sons are about?
Maybe they could just assume, as with all other races whose Codex hasn't come out yet, that their 3rd edition list is still in effect until replaced? ie. just play the same as now, until Codex:Tzeentch comes out?
I know that's not the best though. :(

Karmoon
14-01-2007, 16:57
First of all, codolences for orks players.. this goes against reason sense, logic and some other stuff i can't quite remember.

I thought max two codexes would be ok.
1 for Cult legions
1 for undivided legions.

immortal units would be in cult legion codex
mutant/traitors would be in undivided codx.

But.. having read some of the old codexes for Dark Angles, Blood Angel etc etc, I would love to seee 8 codexes for Chaos.

Simply for fluff. I would love to see more detail of the Alpha Legion rather than:

They sneak around, they work behind imperial line, here are the rules...

Maybe i'm being elitist.. but i have a job, so buying codexes doesn't bother me.

Kriegsherr
14-01-2007, 17:20
Well, we don't need codexes simply for fluff. This is was the WD once was for. I know, I know, its a long time ago. And of course, the idea of getting even some small rules with your fluff is even more heresy today... :rolleyes:

Really, I would like if we could get more rules and fun stuff for play in the codexes and the fluff in seperate books. It would give more room for both. And of course, people not interested in one of both didn't had to pay for both.

The Emperor
14-01-2007, 18:18
Well, we don't need codexes simply for fluff. This is was the WD once was for. I know, I know, its a long time ago. And of course, the idea of getting even some small rules with your fluff is even more heresy today... :rolleyes:

Really, I would like if we could get more rules and fun stuff for play in the codexes and the fluff in seperate books. It would give more room for both. And of course, people not interested in one of both didn't had to pay for both.

That's not a good idea. Then how's a new player supposed to find out what the deal with their army is? Go dig up some random White Dwarf back issue? Thanks, but no thanks. Nevermind that the lack of fluff was one of the biggest problems with Codex: Dark Eldar. We got a new army and do we know what their deal is? Nope, because their army book only has the barest snips of information.

A Codex should provide more then just an army list. It should actually tell you what the army is about and why they fight. The game's about more then just number crunching.

Zerosoul
14-01-2007, 19:05
That's not a good idea. Then how's a new player supposed to find out what the deal with their army is? Go dig up some random White Dwarf back issue? Thanks, but no thanks. Nevermind that the lack of fluff was one of the biggest problems with Codex: Dark Eldar. We got a new army and do we know what their deal is? Nope, because their army book only has the barest snips of information.

A Codex should provide more then just an army list. It should actually tell you what the army is about and why they fight. The game's about more then just number crunching.

Heretic! Heretic! We all know that the game is about how many percents of a Marine a given weapon can take out!

Lordsaradain
14-01-2007, 19:51
Do chaos need a new codex? Do we need new models?

Why the heck wont GW take care of Dark Eldar, Ordo Xenos etc first...? :rolleyes:

the1stpip
14-01-2007, 20:37
No, they don't.

Being a Chaos and DE player, the Chaos codex is more than good enough. Except for the IW list, there is nothing wrong.

Do the codicies that need doing first, then look at the older ones...

There have been two Chaos Codicies since DE was released...

Rlyehable
15-01-2007, 11:22
Do chaos need a new codex? Do we need new models?
Why the heck wont GW take care of Dark Eldar, Ordo Xenos etc first...? :rolleyes:


Being a Chaos and DE player, the Chaos codex is more than good enough. Except for the IW list, there is nothing wrong.
Do the codicies that need doing first, then look at the older ones...

Which is why I hope that they do Chaos Masses (traitor guard, cultist, & mutants) as the first Chaos book. This would actually add something to the the 40k universe that it will be loosing (LatD).

The Chaos Legions codex(es) could wait until after the other things that need done.

Sanath
15-01-2007, 11:47
Being a Chaos and DE player, the Chaos codex is more than good enough. Except for the IW list, there is nothing wrong.

there are more things wchich are wrong....Thousand sons army list, difficulty in apllying marks , difference in point costs, inability to properly create an efficient army list(codex is vey chaotic,tough to find information )

Sarigar
15-01-2007, 12:18
If we get new models, I just want to say I would like plastic demons. My poor Furies look like hell now after playing in a tourney. With their wings,they are hard to fit under the template w/o touching and then one fell, oooh, the pieces and lost paint.

I'm spoiled. I want an all plastic army.

Fulgrim's Gimp
15-01-2007, 20:48
I reckon that the Chaos codex will not have a chaos marine in sight. After all we've had codex chaos space marines , not codex chaos. These will be dealt with later, just my guess.

Ravenheart
15-01-2007, 21:09
I reckon that the Chaos codex will not have a chaos marine in sight. After all we've had codex chaos space marines , not codex chaos. These will be dealt with later, just my guess.

It it's rather, that the codex 'Chaos' won't deal with CSM only but with all facettes of the chaos forces, namely mutants, traitor guard, deamons, maybe even beastmen and cults. And last but not least CSM.

The 2nd ed. codex was just like this. Of course the CSM covered about 80% or more of the content. It was still named codex: chaos and enabled you to build a multitude of different armies, which was great imho.

erurainon
15-01-2007, 22:01
there are more things wchich are wrong....Thousand sons army list, difficulty in apllying marks , difference in point costs, inability to properly create an efficient army list(codex is vey chaotic,tough to find information )

Sorry, I couldn't resist :p

I think Chaos is not a must these days... DE and Orks should be first.
It's true Chaos Codex is not really useful to find information and do an army lists. And some army lists just don't work. I think it can wait. But Chaos sells. And a lot of people is doing them... so they might re-do the codex before the expected. Ciao!!!

sanctusmortis
15-01-2007, 22:28
Look, they needed something that needed a quick fix to work on to cover the gap. You'd prefer no releases at all? Yeesh. There was a gap they had to fill, Chaos is easier than others and is therefore promoted to cover the gap.

And it is little tweaks.

Kriegsherr
15-01-2007, 22:34
It it's rather, that the codex 'Chaos' won't deal with CSM only but with all facettes of the chaos forces, namely mutants, traitor guard, deamons, maybe even beastmen and cults. And last but not least CSM.

The 2nd ed. codex was just like this. Of course the CSM covered about 80% or more of the content. It was still named codex: chaos and enabled you to build a multitude of different armies, which was great imho.

Sure? I only remember CSM in the 2nd ed Chaos Codex. But then again, my memory might be blurry, and I'll search for my 2nd ed stuff in my basement.

Still, not one miniature was made officially for chaos mutants or traitors save some cultist that were for fun only and I never really got why they have done them (and why they didn't included them with the 2nd ed Chaos Codex release).
So since 2nd ed Chaos has always been almost only CSM with some odd human units appearing in some CSM list. The Codex Imperialis was the last place were they really had a list with all the old, fun stuff like beastmen (oh the glory of these guys.... I still have some of them around) or cultists.

Just for clarification: Yes, I would welcome a mixed codex with CSM and Traitors/Mutants... and I would even welcome if a LatD-only codex would be released first. Codex CSM is a little bit shaky, underpowered in some edges and OP in others, but overall it could be worse.

Ravenheart
15-01-2007, 23:28
Sure? I only remember CSM in the 2nd ed Chaos Codex. But then again, my memory might be blurry, and I'll search for my 2nd ed stuff in my basement.


Well, 130 pages of the 145 pages strong codex was about CSM. In the back of the book, are three appendix lists however. One is covering chaos cults, the other is on deamon worlds (deamons, beastmen and traitors) and the 4 super-deamons, while the last revolves around the fallen angels.

Still more variety that the following books.
With the estimated ~80 pages on undivided alone, they should have enough space to introduce some of the non CSM elements of chaos.
If they don't go berserk on the varous undivided legions instead, that is.

Horusaurus
16-01-2007, 01:57
I mean, say they really go for this marked vs. devoted thing, and also they realize that only Thousand Sons have rubric marines, what will the "marked" Tzeentch marines be like and how will actual Thousand Sons players play until the cult codex comes out?
I guess the 5 of them will just have to suck it up. :p

If they really are planning on releasing 5 separate codices for Chaos then it makes sense to release the 1st one as soon as possible. Otherwise you end up with a backlog. They don't want to release everything else and then end up with 2 years of nothing but Chaos releases.

Marshal2Crusaders
16-01-2007, 03:06
I dont see how they are gouing to cover the other armies while they release only one at a time.

FalseAngel
16-01-2007, 03:11
I guess the 5 of them will just have to suck it up. :p

OK, that made me laugh, and I've had a craptastic day at that. If you were counting me, then make that four, I don't play Thousand Sons, I'm just overly curious. :p

Personally I'd be all for the Undivided + LatD idea. I don't really like the idea of LatD being an entirely separate list as I think them being together might make more people use mixed lists.

...OK, that might be wishful thinking that people would do something other than spiky marines... :cheese:

DaGork
16-01-2007, 03:37
While I don't think Chaos really needs a new codex at the moment, at least it will give GW more time to do the Ork Codex right.

As for the splitting of the Chaos codex into several, I'm all for it. As long as they cover a bunch of the daemonic stuff in the initial codex, that is. I don't want to see the cult players unable to play due to this codex.

These cult players will then be able to switch over to their cult once its codex comes out, which will have all sorts of gifts from their atron god that the Undivided codex doesn't have.

Sanath
16-01-2007, 07:21
. I think it can wait. But Chaos sells.

I definately agree.But it's the same issue like with tau empire.
The needed something easy quick and not crucial change that's way tau empire was released before eldar...it gave them more time or so to speak

reds8n
16-01-2007, 09:12
If they really are planning on releasing 5 separate codices for Chaos...

IF
Which I don't think they will. Seriously.

Shibboleth
16-01-2007, 10:47
Chaos has so many factions all needing their own models that they need to be split up into several full scale releases to do justice to them all.

I'm imagining a sprue for each god with all their specific gifts and wargear, plus, with Undivided, an actual devoted chaos traitor guard sprue, which could then be customised with the sprues of the other gods... :evilgrin:

Just practical, wishful thinking. :angel:

Misanthrope
16-01-2007, 12:13
Perhaps they'll release an Undivided codex, and simply say "Use 3rd edition Codex for Cult armies" until they release the Cult book(s)...

Sanath
16-01-2007, 12:23
P
erhaps they'll release an Undivided codex, and simply say "Use 3rd edition Codex for Cult armies" until they release the Cult book(s)...


nooo...this is exactly what GW is trying to avoid....that would be an awful mistake...Too many questions to ask....it would all be mixed up....Chaos today is mixed up thats why they're revamping the 'dex
if they would do sth like this it would be a disaster...everybody would be confused what about the the new point costs wargear changes in the current wargear...cult marks and mix in the FOC...

THAT DEFINNATELY WON'T WORK........it would be a suicide shot for GW..

they do it all for the sake of simpliness

gorgon
16-01-2007, 14:05
Agreed, and I'm not sure why people can't get their head about that, other than the fact that GW gamers are a negative lot that loves to complain... :)

Arkzein
16-01-2007, 14:23
Been wondering how it will work myself, can't really say use the old dex if changing a lot can they? Though I could see it, but having the same models, effectively, working under two different rulesets could get awkward.

ie "Hey your CSM can't do *that*!"

"They can't in the new dex, they can in this one though as I'm using a cult army"

"Cheese! Cheat! Police! Help!"

Perhaps they'll just have four pages near the end with no fluff whatsoever with very basic rules to tie people over? (Sort of like the first Rules book after 2nd Ed into third, with the rules for each army crammed into the back).

Neither option is very attractive, moreso if they stretch the others out over a long period (If four, no doubt my beloved Slaanesh being 3rd or 4th given popularity) or wait months (Ie after the next release, probably Orks) to put it out, if one cult book.

N0-1_H3r3
16-01-2007, 15:21
Got linkage for that I'd be interested to have a looksee.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=627222#post627222

That links to Gav's first post on that thread. Scroll down a little further and he goes into more detail in a second post.

Reaver83
16-01-2007, 15:33
if they're redoing choas, and they want to split it, split it into CSM's and non-CSM's having an undivided book and then 2-4 seperate books for the powers, is just going to fragment the playing base

The Dude
16-01-2007, 22:34
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=627222#post627222

That links to Gav's first post on that thread. Scroll down a little further and he goes into more detail in a second post.

Form what Gav says here, I expect there will only be 2 books. He says Black Legion can have dedicated cult Marines as well as the original 4, so either they'd have to do a whole Dex for Black Legion, just to allow them a limited cult selection (a total of 6 books including Undivided), or they'd have to include all 4 cults in one book. I'd go with the latter.

The Emperor
16-01-2007, 23:22
Either that, or Cult Marines will be Elites choices in standard Chaos Marine armies (Night Lords of Word Bearers with World Eater/Black Legion/Thousand Sons/etc allies), while the Cult specific Codex's will have them as Troops along with other weird Chaos god specific choices.

The Dude
16-01-2007, 23:28
Either that, or Cult Marines will be Elites choices in standard Chaos Marine armies (Night Lords of Word Bearers with World Eater/Black Legion/Thousand Sons/etc allies), while the Cult specific Codex's will have them as Troops along with other weird Chaos god specific choices.

Good point. probably at 0-1 each, I'd guess. That way Black Legion could be made from the Undivided book. Possibly Abbaddon could remove the 0-1 restriction or something.

Many possibilities...

The Emperor
16-01-2007, 23:32
Black Legion's definitely looking to be a great choice. You'll be able to use it as an Undivided army or a Cult army.