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Paladin-01
05-01-2007, 23:10
...I think I spelled that wrong.

So I got ahold of a Tau Codex, (still waiting for my Macgragge starter too), and from what I've read in it, they're... sticklers for model authenticity. "All options must be represented on the model." Yikes.

While I do understand that a large part of the game is about the models, the painting and whatnot, I've seen frequent mention here and on a WH40k webcomic about Proxies. I get the nagging feeling its probably covered in the main book, but looking at the prices for some of the bigger models, the idea of being able to start gaming without spending a tidy sum on a unassembled unpainted monster, even not permanently will probably affect what army I want to build.

So, basically. Model proxies. Allowed, unapproved, hated or set on fire with a plasma torch right on the table?

IJW
05-01-2007, 23:12
In the short-term, most people are perfectly happy with proxies, but expect them to be replaced in the long run.

In a private gaming group, of course, anything goes.

Stormhammers
05-01-2007, 23:16
not a big fan of proxies, I like WYSIWYG, painted armies, I wont even field something until I deem it combat ready (painted, converted, etc.) just wish more people thought that way. I dont hate proxies, it does give someone a chance to field test a new vehicle or monster and build tactics for it before buying it, but other than that, I dont like to be facing proxies time after time against the same person.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-01-2007, 23:22
I like WYSIWYG myself, in my own army, but I don't mind so much in the enemy, so long as its not stuff like "This tin of beans is a Carnifex, RAWR!", and is more along the lines of "I only have a Carnifex with guns, but I want to try one with claws before I buy one, that ok?".

I also don't mind unpainted armies, so long as I can see progress in the painting from game to game, as I understand not everybody has lots of time to paint, or doesn't like painting. I hate playing with unpainted armies, but I have been forced to lately, as I have 4 brand new armies, and none of them fully painted yet. There is slow progress though, which is why I allow myself to use them.

EDIT: I tell a lie, I do use a proxy occasionally. All three of my units of Chaos Warriors are armed with two hand weapons, because they look better, but I often use them as hand weapon and shield. If I do this I do it for all regiments of the same type on the table, and I always tell me opponants before the game.

mattjgilbert
05-01-2007, 23:23
I think many people use proxies. Whether it's just to try out new units or because they cannot afford the real thing. Other people like to own and play against painted wysiwyg armies. If you attend a GW tournament, you'll be expected to have the real deal. In friendly games however, anything goes really. So long as you and your opponent are clear what is what there is no real problem. Everyone has to start somewhere :)

xibo
06-01-2007, 00:10
In general noone will have something against you using ie. firewarriors with pulse carbines as pathfinders, or flamers as meltas, or stuff like that, as long as you keep it consequently ( that means, ALL flamers are meltas ) and don't overuse it.
Two weeks ago I had a battle against space elves ( emphasis elves ). There was a squad of swordmasters representing banshees ( ok for my part ), a broadside battlesuit representing an avatar ( hmmmm well ), teclis being a farseer, a squad of space marines with an attached gun drone representing a guardian squad with a starcannon platform ( ... ), a land speeder being a falcon and space marine scouts with bolters ( not sniper rifles ) being rangers. Ahhh and of cause five high elf archers that were black reapers.
I forced him to put labels besides any of his squads by turn 2.

Shrike30
06-01-2007, 00:11
I read about a guy who'd modified his Devastators with rare-earth magnets back in WD300, so that he could swap arms and backpacks and weapon options on and off of the model. I'm not exactly swimming in cash, and this seemed like a great idea. And then it occurred to me that the SM's use the Rhino chassis for *everything* except Land Raider variants.

I bought a few Predators and went to work with a dremel, some superglue, and a bunch of rare earth magnets I bought online (dirt cheap, all things considered) from www.kjmagnetics.com . After that, I picked up a couple of the oddball sprues from the GW online store (things like the Whirlwind turret, etc). Changing from a Rhino to a Razorback? Swap the top plate, add the gun turret. Want to use a Predator instead? Swap the Predator turret into the Razorback (after tossing the main gun of choice into the turret), and swap off the door plates with sponson plates, then toss the sponson gun of your choice onto the sponson mounts. Want a Whirlwind instead? Put those doors back on, and stick the Whirlwind turret up top. Want storm bolters, smoke launchers, HK missiles, spotlights, a turned out commander glaring at someone? Just put them on the hull or into the sockets on the top.

All of these parts are held on by magnets, glued to the inside of the hull or tucked into places like the sockets for the guns and sponsons. The magnets are quite powerful, even through a few millimeters of plastic, and they'll easily hold bits of plastic together. And being able to take a Rhino and make it into a tricked-out Predator in about 10 seconds of swapping parts on and off makes trying out different army lists a cinch.

I've just started putting together a Tau army, and I'm going to do the exact same thing with the battle suits. Drill small holes in the outside of the arms, the top of the shoulders, and the back slope of the jetpack, and I'll have enough "hard points" to throw pretty much whatever I want onto a suit. A little bit of superglue and greenstuff makes the magnets stay in their sockets, and smooths the surface of the model back out so you can paint over it. Magnets in the mounting surfaces of the weapon and accessory models mean that changing out weapon loadouts on the battlesuit takes about 15 seconds, and means I can play around with whatever configurations I want without having to buy a new model if I want to stay WYSIWYG.

Plus, it makes building the models take longer, and while I don't like painting too much, I find making the models themselves is a hoot.

Penitent
06-01-2007, 00:25
Proxies are acceptable if someone wants to experiment with a new unit, before committing to buying them.

It doesn't really become a problem, until the Carnifex proxied by a Coke bottle becomes a Chronically reappearing theme in someone's army :)

Kahadras
06-01-2007, 00:35
I'm normaly quite strict about proxies. Sometimes it can be very confusing if people start representing units with other units and don't get me started on the Coke cans aproach. At the end of the day I'm not strict on WYSIWYG but I do like the corrrect models just to be clear on what is what.

Kahadras

Stormhammers
06-01-2007, 00:43
Proxies are acceptable if someone wants to experiment with a new unit, before committing to buying them.

It doesn't really become a problem, until the Carnifex proxied by a Coke bottle becomes a Chronically reappearing theme in someone's army :)

my thoughts exactly, my friend has a falcon with a few conversions to make it look different form a normal faclon, he uses it as a proxie wave serpent (they are just a bit pricey ya know?)

Paladin-01
06-01-2007, 02:26
Would it matter that I was planning on using other mecha models for it? Before I actually looked at the models for WH40k, I wondered if any of my Zoids model kits could be modded or vice versa, since I did mod those models.

Ap0calypse
06-01-2007, 02:27
A lot of people here are more forgiving than I am with proxies... The only way I will accept a proxy, is if it is a scratch-built model of reasonable quality-that is no pop can drop pods or cardboard box rhino etc... I know this comes off as anal, but I really do not derive any pleasure in playing games with proxies, and isn't that what it's all about? fun? I would rather just sit quietly and paint my models than play a game like that. In fact I won't even play people that haven't painted their models to a reasonable degree either.
I understand that people have very little time & money to paint armies these days, but I am a 25 year old man with a 10 month old & a 6 year old, who works full time, and is also dirt poor. I have been painting my armies since May 2005 and have not even played a single game of 40k yet - and won't until I have totally finished my painting.

CrazyHeeb
06-01-2007, 02:35
Would it matter that I was planning on using other mecha models for it? Before I actually looked at the models for WH40k, I wondered if any of my Zoids model kits could be modded or vice versa, since I did mod those models.
If you're talking about using non-Citadel models on a long-term basis, there are going to be a lot of people who are going to have problems with that.

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 02:39
Only if you play in GW stores or in tournaments.

Diomedes
06-01-2007, 02:45
Remember the old days when GW actually ran articles about converting things like Zoids into models?

proxies are fine by me, also unpainted armies are not really a problem for me either, when I was playing on a regular basis, people in my group would buy models and want to play them straight away as soon as they had finished building them.

So why not let them? some people hate the painting aspect of the hobby and as a result paint very slowly.

A game is a game in my eyes and lots of players want to try out new rules/models ASAP, if someone wants to use a proxy to playtest a model that could cost them upwards of £20 only to find out its pants then thats ok with me.

Catferret
06-01-2007, 02:46
Don't know if anybody has noticed the change to the WYSIWYG rules for GW touranments. There is now only a 60% requirement for WYSIWYG or something like that. That 10 man Marine Tactical squad containing a Dreadnought as man 7 could be weird...:D

Or dig out the old card cut outs of Repeater Bolt Throwers from 4th Ed WFB. They are still GW products...

Diomedes
06-01-2007, 02:49
Or the Griffin mounted General, or the Goblin chariot, yes what an idea! turn up with a load of cardboard cutouts to your local GW, whack em on the table and say "Well its GW so its legal!"

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 02:51
The 60% thing is for stuff like Book of Saint Lucius in SoB armies. How the hell do you model that on SoB models where the arms are cast connected to the body (you know what I mean... :p).

Catferret
06-01-2007, 02:52
@Diomedes

U could "convert" them with fantastic origami skills!:D

Diomedes
06-01-2007, 02:55
@Diomedes

U could "convert" them with fantastic origami skills!:D

"I know it looks like a Swan but its a damn Runefang I tell you!" :D

AmKhaibitu
06-01-2007, 03:08
The 60% thing is for stuff like Book of Saint Lucius in SoB armies. How the hell do you model that on SoB models where the arms are cast connected to the body (you know what I mean... :p).

Well using the book arm that comes with the canoness, it might be possible to do a bit of modelling butchery and add said book :D

Paladin-01
06-01-2007, 03:38
Its not that I don't like the models, I do. I look forward to assembling, painting, and customizing the official stuff. But I also don't want to be unable to play because I'm short $50 of model and $10 of paint.


Remember the old days when GW actually ran articles about converting things like Zoids into models?

...Hmm?

bert n ernie
06-01-2007, 03:38
Or get the spares from a skaven plague monk player, and make them wear them as hats.

I personally have a bit of a proxy problem.
I only ever use roughly the same armies, but I never seem to have finished painting any fully(though i'm trying desperately), and i keep changing whta I think works best.
I've gone so far that for a laugh a friend and I just decided to proxy everything, and we used macdonalds toys for every tank in each army, and had models from six different armies involved in proxying. Sounds like fun, but it is annoying. There is a point. I will play until it becomes a chore to remember what unit is what. Two tanks, both different with similar proxies is a problem.
I like to either have the special weapons of a unit finished, or every other model, and the special ones stand out as the 'battle sister in the guard squad is the flamer' kinda job.
Both ways work, but seperately.
If you find the right opponents proxy till you're happy with your list, but set goals with how much you paint between each game(or month at least) so as not to annoy them. Even if its half the squad.

To go into WYSIWYG specifics. I think its dumb when people get too wargear specific(except for guard with xeno fighters), as if you have a nice model, and it has what looks like the right gun, and it is the only one of its type, or at least VERY distinguishable, then what's the problem? Of course I'd have a problem if too many had MORE wargear than they were given(powerfists) as 'in the heat of battle' people sometimes 'forget' or 'cheat'.

prince_dios
06-01-2007, 04:34
I am fine with proxies as long as they're consistent and easy for me to remember. "Each of my autocannons is actually a lascannon" is fine. Having five different autocannons as five different weapons is -not- fine. Bases -might- be okay, if the player had one WYSIWG figures in each "unit" and agreed to always go with my judgement when LOS to/from a base becomes concern.

Reclusive Dave
06-01-2007, 11:22
The only problem I have is when the proxie is completely unlike the model it is supposed to represent.

For example, Crisis Battlesuits are of dimensions X by Y by Z, mounted on a 40mm base. Anything substantially too large or too small would be a problem. Apart from that, the only other issue is the potential for confusion like prince_dios described.

Corrupt
06-01-2007, 11:45
Hm
I have no problem with stand ins on a short term basis.
Especially if its the "that autocannon is a lascannon" or the "The venom cannon is a devourer" stand in or something that is painted and looks like the rest of the army and he just lacked a painted lascannon and used autocannon rather than half painted marine.

Long term I'd start to complain, but short term it's fine. UNpainted armies I can deal with even if its 2500 points unppainted, aslong as i see progress each game.

My opponents don't mind my commisar at all. Its the one with the axe and hand flamer. I couldn't bring myself to remove such a cool pistol, so I said it was a Plasma Pistol. A mastercrafted one that spreays plasma like a flamer and thus rarely misses. Admittedly it has often singed him doing this, but meh, it looks sexy!

Deviant
06-01-2007, 11:59
I don't mind proxies, it's a way to try out new units without the financial commitment. It's a bit like a car, would you buy it without test driving it when you could find out it's completely different to what you wanted? Although when people proxy using inconsistent models, proxies should stand out from the rest of the army, and unit choices within them should be represented, for example, i have a skaven blood bowl team 3 feet from me that could pheasibly represent a tac squad (6 linemen and 1 gutter runner as normal marines, thrower as heavy weapon, mutant with claw as vet sarge and storm vermin as special weapon), this wouldn't bother me as there will be no squad like them on the table so i'll remember what they are. Proxying a space marine assault command squad with 4 marines with bolters and a veteran sergeant however would bother me as they'd blend in and be overlooked.

As long as it's distinct and the same scale and base size i don't mind.

Scythe
06-01-2007, 12:28
I don't mind. I have played against cardboard boxes, coke cans and empty bases before, so as long as you tell me what everything represents, and there is little room for confusion, I am fine with it.
I have become a little more strict on myself though. Only play with the real models, and use as many painted models as possible (well, over the years I have a lot of painted models avaiable, so why not use them instead of unpainted stuff?), especially against people I never played before.

snurl
06-01-2007, 12:30
A long time ago we used to play AD&D with proxies due to miniatures not being available yet and us not having money to buy the few that were out. I was the salad croutan,(which is how my caracter got it's name), there were beer bottle tops, erasers and tabs from aluminum cans. We usually fought the evil cigarette butts. Nobody cared and we had fun.

hiveminion
06-01-2007, 12:35
Personaly I don't like proxies, but I'd accept it if I had to play against it. As long as you don't put your deodarant on the table and say: "Allright, this is my Monolith, and those toothbrushes over there count as Destroyers".

Confession: come to think of it I proxy myself, sometimes I count my bolt pistols as bolters(#0.0#)

Deviant
06-01-2007, 13:15
I'd like to point out though that i only proxy myself when a model is lost/broken, although virtually none of my stuff is painted, i generally spend a load of money on models, glue them, start playing them with the intention of painting them and then find i have no money for paint. I'm not a huge fan of painting though, i prefer painting the cool stuff (tanks, characters, etc) than the normal rank and file troops.

LeeJerrum
06-01-2007, 14:08
I don't see the problem using proxies. If you havent had the oppurtunity to playtest a certai unit then you're far less likley to go out and part cash for it.

Skyth
06-01-2007, 14:54
Well, I only proxy when I play against myself to test out armies. Other than that, I use WYSIWYG when playing against other people. It's a mark of respect.

god octo
06-01-2007, 15:15
i dislike using proxies, as i would prefer the models, but i have nothing against them. I would much prefer to play a game with a proxied unit or two then have to not play or play a ridiculously small game.

Stormhammers
16-01-2007, 01:59
Well, I only proxy when I play against myself to test out armies. Other than that, I use WYSIWYG when playing against other people. It's a mark of respect.
not to mention dedication.

Reaver83
16-01-2007, 02:25
Whilst like most people i would love to paint with a fully painted army against another fully painted army and be a perfect WYSISWG, it's just not possible a lot of the time, i mean so far i've got around 50 painted Units not including vehicles, i felt 'hey -ho damn i'm fighting a lot of MEQ's what i could do with are some bloodletters.' So first of all i proxy some other beserkers (all with blobs of blue tac on) as them give them a couple of bashes, 'yep they work' excellent, i've got enough cash to get me some, however i've still got a squad of terminators which need painting, and they came along first. Am i not going to use the 'letters till then? Well, i accept if i was off to a tournament then no, but having a laugh in the local GW where very few people have fully painted armies then yeah go for it, (though the guy with 117 pretorians all fully painted ala zulu does look cool)

So yeah proxies, as long as they're clearly labled, and knwon and the entire army is not made of them great, unpainted/basecoated mini's fine too, everyone takes their time, because why rush when you spen £X on them

Aundae
16-01-2007, 03:08
As far as proxies goes, it all depends on who you are playing with/at. If you are playing at home with a couple of friends, you can use bits of paper with what it’s supposed to be written in magic marker on it. If you go to an independent game shop tell the other guy what you have for proxies and what they are supposed to represent and let him make the call before the game starts. The worst he is going to say is no, and you haven’t lost anything. You go to a GW shop they are going to want all GW models all the time, same thing at a GW tournament. However, at a rogue trader tournament they may be a bit more lax about the particulars as long as you comply with WYSIWYG. Most people I have met are more than understanding about proxies, because they know just as well as I do how expensive and time consuming this hobby can get. Just let the other guy know and see what he says.

cailus
16-01-2007, 03:15
Depends on the proxy. For example using a scratch built tank as a Leman Russ is perfectly reasonable.

However I hate proxies where the same models represent different things.

E.g:

"This model with a meltagun actually has a plasma gun, but this other meltagun model is actually a Veteran Sergeant with a power fist and this heavy bolter is a lascannon."

IMO in this case it's WYSIWYG - if you give all your special weapon troopers flamers, then they are equipped with flamers and should not be allowed to use anything different.

I myself have some bizarre weapon fits (Ork mob with a big shoota and 2 burnas or a Dreadnought with a TL lascannon and a heavy flamer) and use the models as they are modelled. It makes the game more challenging too!

nightgant98c
16-01-2007, 03:18
I have no problem with proxies within reason. A squad, or model, or small scale stuff like that is fine, but an entire army would be pretty ridiculous.

bigred
16-01-2007, 03:39
I loathe proxies.

Its a visual game. Its supposed to look good. If appearance didn't matter we might as well be playing an Avalon Hill game with chits.

Now someting minor like a player trying out a single particular thing before he buys it is ok, but wholesale subs are out.

I do my opponent the courtesy of bringing a nice painted army so he does not have to try to remember what every model is "really". I would like the same courtesy extended to me.

-bigred

proximity
16-01-2007, 05:35
Out of interest, what are peoples thoughts on what you see is what you get in that nothing that the model has ISNT there, but some things that are on the model arnt technicially there.
i.e. i have 6 carnifex's in my army - and all of them have enhanced senses. The idea of having the same head on every one really didnt appeal to me, so 4 of them have other heads - one normal, 2 with the tusked head - and one with the acid maw. These dont represent anything in game other than looking different - whilst I have still modeled enhanced senses in other ways.

the other situation where I have done this is instead of using the plain back peice, 2 have the spineback piece, and 2 the spore cyst piece - but all 6 are just normal.

if someone was to sit this down on the table infront of you, and explain it to you (very light on biomorphs, so there really is very little chance for confusion - out of the 6 carnifxes, 3 are the same as one configuration, and the other 3 the same as another) - would you be happy to play against it, or would you be rather annoyed?

Griffin
16-01-2007, 06:30
Scratchbuilt is fine, but proxying something more than once irratates me. Use the model as its modelled. Don't tell me that a Coke can is a carnifax, and that cigarette pack is a Warrior - If I wanted to play with trash I could have stayed at home and rummaged through the trashcan. I can understand trying to see how a unit works before buying it. But other than that - I prefer to play with fully assembled models. I don't mind half painted as long as you do make a effort to get a little more done each time. I paint my units based on merit - If I do use half painted units, the ones that preform well get done first as a reward for good service - silly I know, but It helps you get painting done in a reasonable time as you are pacing yourself.

JaBoK
16-01-2007, 06:37
Yea, I agree that proxying takes something out of the game, but I wouldn't mind if an opponent wanted to use an EML as a starcannon, or take bionics or auspexes without representing them. What does bother me is when I see someone ragging on a player for wanting to use lightning claws as a power weapon, or telling someone that they're not allowed to model two powerfists onto a model. Technically, you'd be right, but sometimes it's OK to let a few things slide if you opponent makes sure that you know ahead of time.

I think that the best defense is to bring a really cheezy powergaming list, so that you can use it as a backup incase someone has a problem with one of your models.

TheSanityAssassin
16-01-2007, 06:45
I don't tend to mind them, so long as I'm well informed of what they are, but again its a short term thing, and I like to be asked before they are used. The "hey, I'm thinking of adding a dreadnought, but I'm not sure yet...mind if I borrow your other Wraithlord to try?" I'll probably say yes. On the other hand, If I'm not warned and I say "hey, you left your coke in the middle of the table, its getting awfully close to my models" and suddenly its a carnifex or whatnot, I'm not so thrilled.

Admittedly I "proxy" a tick, for example I'm using my old Falcons as fire prisms while I wait for the metal componants to come in for me to build new turrets, and have been known to use my third falcon as a wave serpent while I'm doing the plasticard work on the other one I'm building...and using a Wytch squad from my Dark Eldar as Harlequins, which no one has had problems with, given that they're painted, and the models aren't out yet. And used a squad of jetbikes as spears....

That said, the rest of my army is 100% painted and 95% WYSIWYG...But as people have said, I don't want to buy before I know I can use the unit. I don't plan on it being long term, and I have enough of a reputation for using painted models that people are OK with it.

That said, as advice, don't walk into a GW or a local club with a full proxy army and expect to play...find someone else just getting into the hobby and play some mutual proxy games....my first 4 or 5 games were played with LEGO men and self built tanks and dreads (looked remarkably good).

And my friend managed to cast a whole marine army out of hot glue.....no jokes, he had a whole technological process....cast the sprues then built and painted them. It was rather impressive....

chromedog
16-01-2007, 07:08
I'll let an opponent proxy up to a point.

If he wants to proxy a vehicle, it must at least be the basic hull/chassis model. So a chimera could stand in for a basilisk or hellhound. Or an eldar player could proxy a falcon for a wave serpent or fire-prism. Otherwise, if it looks 'close enough' to the basic shape (guard tank proxied from lego, so that it's the same size and height).

They must be marked/labelled in such a way that I know without having to think too hard* what it is.

I don't like playing against the proxy army from heck made up of counters (all 2000 points of it.)

Indrid Khold
16-01-2007, 08:10
Lol, are you getting all this, Paladin-01?

I think it basically boils down to a matter of etiquette, just as you say. When I go to play at the local stores I'm perfectly happy to let somebody off with a fair amount of proxying, but if somebody sets up their army and says to me "it's all WYSIWYG" then I know that this person is ... well a "professional," to take some liberties with the word.

Sgt Biffo
16-01-2007, 08:20
I play in a private gaming group mostly, and we have been doing the hooby for about 17 years. This meas some old minitures get put in and proxied.

I read a thread on here a few months back about a guy who had a battle against a kid in a GW store. He had just started a marine army and had not finished assembly let alone painting.

The story goes that; when it came to close combat the kid he was playing said that his marines died automaticly because their CC weapons were not represented on the model. When he tried to point out that they had agreed to proxy prior to the game the kid threw the dead marines at the storyteller!

Scythe
16-01-2007, 09:41
Out of interest, what are peoples thoughts on what you see is what you get in that nothing that the model has ISNT there, but some things that are on the model arnt technicially there.
i.e. i have 6 carnifex's in my army - and all of them have enhanced senses. The idea of having the same head on every one really didnt appeal to me, so 4 of them have other heads - one normal, 2 with the tusked head - and one with the acid maw. These dont represent anything in game other than looking different - whilst I have still modeled enhanced senses in other ways.

the other situation where I have done this is instead of using the plain back peice, 2 have the spineback piece, and 2 the spore cyst piece - but all 6 are just normal.

if someone was to sit this down on the table infront of you, and explain it to you (very light on biomorphs, so there really is very little chance for confusion - out of the 6 carnifxes, 3 are the same as one configuration, and the other 3 the same as another) - would you be happy to play against it, or would you be rather annoyed?

I have never been really strict on Tyranid Biomorphs... especially since some of them don't even have a proper model representation. After all, those morphs could just as well be glands or organs under the carapace (would make sense to me, why expose them in the first place?) As long as it is made clear before the battle what each fex is capable of, no problem, I do the same a bit myself. That aside, I usually expect the adrenal glands and toxin sacs to be present on gaunts. After all, they have the bits for them, and it clearly sets them apart from their 'normal' counterparts.

machine_recovered_meat
16-01-2007, 10:37
WYSIWYG is somewhat absurd in a mildly amusing way when you bear in mind that the game is somewhat rooted in the imagination of the players ;)

Visually it does look great to see fully painted, appropriately kitted out stuff on the table, but i don't mind too much really - I remember the cut-out counters from Rogue Trader and WHFB 3rd Ed.

It also smacks slightly of elitism and cashing in - if you've got to buy certain bits which only come on say - a sprue which costs £6+ you know?
And where does one draw the line?
If an assault squad is tooled up with melta bombs - which are huge, ugly, great, and only come on one to a sprue - how many do you have to stick on to make it WYSIWYG ?
I have no doubt that more anal players would argue that because only one or two in a unit actually have the bombs modelled that only that one or two can attack their hideously upgraded tank.
This approach loses sight of the original notion though, and sadly so.
It's meant to be fun.

Well painted and modelled armies can certainly add to the enjoyment, no doubt about that, but they shouldn't be utterly required in order for enjoyment to be had.

Lord Blood the Hungry
16-01-2007, 11:44
building and painting armies is over half of the hobby.

it is an insult to your opponent if you use broken goblins as space marines against his fully painted tau army with its golden daemon standard commander conversion.

its ok to playtest new squads using proxied models before buying them as long as the proxied models are just that.
APPROXIMATE- very near, closely resembling.

a coke can does not resemble a dreadnought

L' aéronautique d' Eldar
16-01-2007, 12:07
As long as its about the same model size, ie rhino chassis for predator, random ultramarine for swooping hawk and not more than 25% of your army are proxies, im fine with it.And I also take into account how expensive gw models are most students i know can't buy/assemble an entirely new army straight away and i can understand if they wanna try the new army out or if you want to try something out, like swooping hawks, I see no problem with it. Remember the most important rule of the game is to have fun

Goq Gar
16-01-2007, 13:03
Everyone on this forum is aware of my views of the little LOTR snots that have started popping up, so i'll avoid that topic comepletely, and merely focus on the big snots.

Dont - be - a - rule - jerk. Dont look up EVERY SINGLE RULE just to make sure nothing that could POSSIBLY prevent you from winning, does.

Dont - get - depressed. Nothing is more annyoing than knowing your opponent doesn't want to play you, either because he's too stuck up, because he's losing, or both.

S-H-O-W-E-R. Just because you have a nurgle army doesnt make chemical warfare ANY more justified. TAKE A SHOWER. (I cant see what I rolled! My eyes are watering too much!)

Don't collect and create the cheesiest army you can, JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN. Cheese is okay in small doses, like in a burger, or on top of your spaghetti. On its own, cheese is not a dish to be eaten. Oh, and cheese is okay in an army if you only have say a few nasty cheesy units, and not... well... Wych Cult - Cheddar division.

A few helpful tips from: Someone who is watching you in the store, backup for the red shirts. They put up with enough already, so crack down on your fellow gamers if they start giving them trouble. Those red measuring sticks were made extra whippy for a reason!

Maus
16-01-2007, 13:23
I like WYSIWYG, with the exception of characters and vehicles -- there are too many wargear/upgrade options for it to be fun to limit yourself to a single set on a model. I'll do my best to represent what's there, but if I want something different I don't see any problem with it -- just make sure your opponent knows what the model is.

bert n ernie
23-01-2007, 00:50
One problem that can pop up is that a model that is closer to WYSIWYG, but has different gear is moer difficult to rememebr than somethign quite different. I'm not saying its a good thing, as I'd rather SEE the one that's closer, but it can be confusing. A pred with lascannon instead of the armarment shown is harder to remember than a rhino counts as.

Laughingmonk
23-01-2007, 02:57
Everyone on this forum is aware of my views of the little LOTR snots that have started popping up, so i'll avoid that topic comepletely, and merely focus on the big snots.

Dont - be - a - rule - jerk. Dont look up EVERY SINGLE RULE just to make sure nothing that could POSSIBLY prevent you from winning, does.

Dont - get - depressed. Nothing is more annyoing than knowing your opponent doesn't want to play you, either because he's too stuck up, because he's losing, or both.

S-H-O-W-E-R. Just because you have a nurgle army doesnt make chemical warfare ANY more justified. TAKE A SHOWER. (I cant see what I rolled! My eyes are watering too much!)

Don't collect and create the cheesiest army you can, JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN. Cheese is okay in small doses, like in a burger, or on top of your spaghetti. On its own, cheese is not a dish to be eaten. Oh, and cheese is okay in an army if you only have say a few nasty cheesy units, and not... well... Wych Cult - Cheddar division.

A few helpful tips from: Someone who is watching you in the store, backup for the red shirts. They put up with enough already, so crack down on your fellow gamers if they start giving them trouble. Those red measuring sticks were made extra whippy for a reason!

I'm not sure if this post has anything to do with this thread, but I think in short what you're trying to say is that if you follow the golden rule, you should be fine :p

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It's as simple as that. I personally hate double standards, and so while I stress Wysiwig on all of my models (not really hard with eldar, mind you!) I let alot of stuff go. While I'm a stickler for weapons and armor (such as carapace armor being represented on guard, and all weapons in general) I generally let go on Vehicle upgrades and grenades. If a chaos player bought mutated hull for a vehicle, and it wasn't represented, I wouldn't really care, because I don't have vectored engines on my wave serpent. On the other hand, if he deploys a lascannon, I expect to be shot at by a lascannon, and nothing else.

I'm not a big fan of proxies, but I usually allow one proxied unit. I personally never use proxies, but I understand that someone might want to try out a different unit. However, if you deploy a pair of legs as a carnifex, and then refuse to tell me what weapons it has, then I get a bit flustered. Also, having an entire army proxied with unrelated units (I can understand, say, ultramarine Terminators used as Deathwing terminators, but half built goblins with a watcher in the dark as a veteran sgt? please) can be very confusing, and I generally disallow them. Common courtesy applies, of course ( I only allow game related models to proxy. No coke can dreadnoughts for me, thank you.)

Some may think it's a bit harsh to disallow proxies, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

A few points:

1.) Double standards are very bad. If you have used proxied units in your army, then allow others to do so to.

2.) The Golden Rule always applies, so have the common courtesy to give your opponent some leeway. After all, while many of us have extensive model collections and enough knowledge of the game to have a rough idea if we want to buy a new model or not, many players may want to try out a unit to get a feel for what it can do.

3.) Incomplete armies aren't a big deal, as long as an opponent puts some effort into getting it up and running. Some people don't have the time like others might have. Just put a reasonable effort into getting your army up and running.

4.) Most of this post has to do with gaming in public. Obviously, running a few test games with an army that baffles you at your friends house (or what not) is obviously ok. Anything goes amongst friends, IMO (Bring the Beer-Can dreadnaughts on!). However, if I take the time to go to a store to game, ready for battles that last long into the night (I don't get to do this much anymore :cries: ), I usually expect to play with players who at least *try* to deploy a decent force on the table.

5.) In the end, it's about being a good opponent. If an opponent uses a proxy/incomplete model, but it's not confusing in any way, then I have no problems at all; in fact, some of my funnest games were with my buddie and his horde of armless marines (he at least sticks on special and heavy weapons, so as not to confuse me). Also, I have played against pro-painted armies under the command of virtual trogladytes. The army was pleasing. My opponents weren't.

Gerrok
23-01-2007, 07:01
I've never turned down a game because someone had to proxy, but I've also never had anyone try to proxy an entire army. There is a point where excessive proxying starts taking the fun out of a game.

But in all honesty, I'm much more annoyed with players who don't have a army list then players who proxy a few models.

And remember, if you're going to proxy, try to be consistant, and also try to proxy with a model that similiar.

Predator101
23-01-2007, 10:36
Here's my 2 Cents.

Obviously you've gotten a lot of different opinions from this thread, mine is that it depends where you game. If you're going to a GW shop they'll probably expect you to have GW Models. A rogue trader will probably get pissed if you don't buy his merchandise after a while. But if you game with your friends than anything goes, I'll elaborate.

I build my models to have a lot of extra stuff, because I think it looks cool (I play SM) and even though I never give my Tac Squads frag grenades, I always put them on the model. I proxy all the time, but It's generally not a problem because if I have 4 Tac Squads they are all the same config, so I just set a distinguishing guy as the heavy weapon and one as the special weapon, and they're all the same. We actually encourage others to proxy (their entire army even) for several games 5-10. So that they can get a good idea of not only how their units work, but also how they work against several different units and armies.

So my recomendation is Proxy away, as much as you want and as long as you want. As long as you intend to buy an army and build upon it. You really don't want to end up with an army you don't like and/or a bunch of units you'll never use.

Rioghan Murchadha
23-01-2007, 13:48
building and painting armies is over half of the hobby.

it is an insult to your opponent if you use broken goblins as space marines against his fully painted tau army with its golden daemon standard commander conversion.

its ok to playtest new squads using proxied models before buying them as long as the proxied models are just that.
APPROXIMATE- very near, closely resembling.

a coke can does not resemble a dreadnought


It's actually not over half the hobby at all. There is no chicken or egg scenario here. Do a bit of digging into GW history and you'll find that the game existed before GW had any hand in any miniature creation process. Nowadays they call it a 'hobby' rather than a game, because when you flog something that 'requires' fully painted and based miniatures, you're making a hell of a lot more money than just selling rulebooks.

Some of us are just old timey, old fashioned gamers, not 'hobbyists' (I personally find that term offensive). I don't play warhammer to sit for hours painting little plastic men, I play it because for the most part, the game system works.

That said, I still don't like 'proxies' in the sense of common household items standing in for things. However, I personally don't give a flying ****** if you take the carapace armour doctrine for your guard, and use the basic plastic cadians. That, to me, is just assinine, and smacks of spending far too much time being indoctrinated into the cult of GW.

Siam-Tiger
23-01-2007, 14:16
Proxies are fine to me as long as they don't move above the already mentioned "This tin can is my LR/Tyrant/Dragon/Whatever".

A friends lil brother wanted to try out squigs before buying them (60-80 bucks for a unit in a playable size is much money for many students his age), so i´m fine with it as long as he doesn't keeps doing it for the next years ^^.

I´m not that strict about weapon optoins, too. I have 2 Stanks, both with normal cannon. When i tell in advance, i´m gonna use it with hfsk, its okay for the most people. Something about the chaos warriors mentioned above with 2-hand weapons / weapon & shield. As long as i´m informed, i´m okay with it.

After all - don't forget, its a game, its about fun not about having every piece of wysiwyg.

Angelwing
23-01-2007, 15:20
proxy models are really only a problem if the owner doesnt tell you what they are, and you make assumptions based on what it looks like. this applies to actual models.
real world (tm) example: 3 tyranid warriors armed with s talons and deathspitters. turn out to be armed with t sacs, s talons, rending claws and leaping. i have made tactical moves based on what i think they can do, but only find out what they actually have when i get a whupping from them. the excuse? "ive paid the points". toxin sacs and, leaping is fine if told in advance, but not actually having the weapons?
another example, same guy: unit of VC grave guard, standard models. turn out to have halberds when i have engaged them. That is actually cheating.
its misrepresenting models to gain advantages that i cant stand. i repeat, that is cheating. proxy is fine if told in advance, and some wysiwyg exceptions apply (grenades, fields, auspexes etc. you know the sort of stuff), but proxy to decieve... bah.

GildorInglorion
23-01-2007, 16:08
......
Some of us are just old timey, old fashioned gamers, not 'hobbyists' (I personally find that term offensive). I don't play warhammer to sit for hours painting little plastic men, I play it because for the most part, the game system works.
.....


I respect that. Beside all the very interesting posts in this thread, I think that this is a key point. Not all of us are interested in the modelling and painting part of the game. Many just want to play, period.

But I think that respecting those who like the visual part of the game is VERY easy too!

A friend of mine doesn't like painting. He wanted to field a SM Army, so he decided that his Chapter would be called "the Omega Marines", with an All-Black armour. He just bought the cheapest combinations (or got old models from friends, me included), assembled them, sprayed them black, put an uspide-down Ultramarines decal on each marine (Omega!!!), glue some sand on the bases, and...... voila`!!! a honest-looking WYSIWYG Army!!!

By the way, if he wants to change something, he just breaks a model and re-glues something else..... no comment.....

In my opinion, a small commitment is a must if you want to play WH40K.

Just my 2 cents.

Nick