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xibo
08-01-2007, 12:37
Hi,

I just came up with the idea of changing the cover saves rules into something more realistic. Imagine a forrest. There are stormtroopers in that forest, who are weaseling to you with some meltas(=death). You don't see the stormtroopers, but you know their there because satelite pictures show them walking in there, the voice chaos whispered it to you, the farseer foresaw them coming out or whatever. So the next moment a stormtrooper appears in the woods. You aim for him and try to shoot him but there's lots of trees and he's moving fast from one obscuring object to the next.
If you think about it, the more obscuring objects there are between him and you, the less your probability to hit him will be, right?(unless of cause you KNOW where and when he will come into LoS with you, of cause)
Next, the farther he is inside the forrest, the more trees(or whatever) will occlude him denying you to hit effectively.

So here goes my proposal for cover saves:
For starters, classify terrain/cover into cover classes. One will be light or next to no cover, for example high grass. The second is medium cover like man-high trunk, buildings, ruins, and so on. The third class is hard cover like trenchlines and bunkers.

During the game, every model on the table may try to shoot every enemy model/unit ( except ICs with <6" to a closer unit or if failing target priority ). Then measure out distance as usual, but this time also measure out how far targeted models are inside the cover. Roll to hit as usual. Now dice for every hit you made whether the shot clashed into the cover or hit the target. Different cover classes use different dices to measure if the target got hit. For light cover, use 2D6, for medium use 1D6 and for hard use 1D3. Now measure the distance to the enemies in cover, starting from the point your shot entered the cover piece. If the distance to the enemy model is equal or below your dice result, you have hit him, else the shot hit something else. Wound as usual and have the targets make their armour or invulnerable saves. Cover saves are removed, because of the to-hit pseudo-modifier.

Tanks and monstrous creatures are just too big to be effectively saved by cover. They always use the lowernext cover class, and get no cover at all if they should be in class light.
Swarms and creep that is classified as size one in the BGB allways use the uppernext cover class, but don't count in cover should they be in open terrain.
Flamers of any kind do NOT ignore neither LOS nor cover. There is no way a meterthick concrete wall between you and him will not save you from the flames
Sniper Weapons have objectives that allow the user to aim better. They allways use the lower cover class, including no cover mod if the cover class should be light.
Cover Save Modifiers Every bonus to cover saves make you count as in the higher terrain class ( again you don't count as in cover if you're in the open )
Every malus to cover saves make you count as in the lower terrain class ( again you don't benefit from light cover if you would usually get -1CS or a greater penalty )
AP2 and AP1 Weapons Simply melt away everything in their way. They gain +1 to all Cover Penetration rolls.

Shooting through terrain pieces
Your Marksmen can try to shoot things which are behind cover. If you wish for example to shoot into a ranger squad in a corps field(class light=2D6 cover penetration), who is also obscured by two buildings (class medium=1D6 cover penetration) in a row, you will have to penetrate through both the buildings and the corps field. Roll for The first terrain piece. Rolls of (modified) 10+ on 2D6, 6 on 1D6 and 3 on 1D3 always pass. For the shots who passed through the first occluder, roll to check if they pass through the next one, too. Then, check if the remaining shots get far enough into the corps field to be able to wound a ranger( Notice that the corps field is increased to class medium because of the rangers +2 Cover Save Mod ). Wound and make saves as usual.

Example: (See Attached Image)
A guardsman wants to shoot and passes his target priority Test. The obvious best target is the Genestealer who is 1" from the forests' border (at the point where the lasray intersects with it). The Guardsman has to hit normaly, then roll 2+ Cover Penetration on a single D6 because the woods are medium cover, and then wound as usual.
If the Guardsman decides to shoot the gaunt instead, measure out how far the lasray has to go through the first building ( say 3" ), so the guardsman has to dice 3+. Next, check out how long the lasray goes through the second building ( say 7" ). As 6+ allways passes the guardsman has to dice a 6. If he passes that too, the gaunt still is 1" deep in the forest so the lasray needs 2+ to get trough the forrest and into the gaunt.
If the guardsman shoots the HT, he needs to penetrate the first building ( most probably 6 or more inches, therefore on 6+ ) and dice 2+ on 1D6 because the HT is both in hard cover and a Monstrous Creature (hard cover becomes medium cover).

What do you think?

Mr_Smiley
08-01-2007, 12:59
Interesting, I personally think cover, and terrain in general would be better with each model and terrain peice having a height from 0-10.
Does your system balance properly and does it take to long to play in a normal game?

lord_blackfang
08-01-2007, 13:19
Too cumbersome. Who the heck wants to roll 2d6 AND measure range for each individual shot?

Mojaco
08-01-2007, 13:21
Too complex. It's no where near as fast as what we have now. And what would happen if a squad had one model within 1" of the cover edge but the rest deeper in? And what would happen with a simple wall? Hiding right behind one (as you would normally do) isn't an option in this system.

I'm not a fan.

Shasolenzabi
08-01-2007, 13:23
[[[ It has been discussed before, maybe GW could make a supplement, WH40K:Advanced Rules. That way, the players could use more in depth rules, not to neccessarily slow things down, but to make a differently flavored version of the game for those who are tired of oversimplification of the present rules. It would be an option for players to use, or not use.

IJW
08-01-2007, 13:24
Flamers of any kind do NOT ignore neither LOS nor cover. There is no way a meterthick concrete wall between you and him will not save you from the flames
Given that flamethrowers are used specifically for burning out cover, I think you're out on a limb on this one. A meter-thick wall is only going to help if contains no windows, doorways, firing slits, ventilation grills etc.

Chimera
08-01-2007, 13:30
Kinda on the fence here. Yes, cover is too simple, but also yes, that seems a tad complex... although the effort that's gone into this proposal is a pleasant change from the 'I whant my <insert troop type here> 2 b ub3r so here's sum new ruls for them' posts!

Not that complexity is a bad thing, it's just not what I'm looking for in 40K :)

Anyway, I do really like the idea of more protection from cover, the deeper in it you are. I also I like the idea of certain weapons punching through it. I always hate it when a Rail Rifle's solid anti-tank long ranged hi-power uber death shot bounces off a small shrub.

Bearing in mind the 'we don't like dice roll modifiers' mentality of 40K shooting:

Perhaps a more streamlined alternative would be to simply increase a model's cover save the further in it is (ie, edge 6+, centre 3+, or whatever), while keeping the rule that says leaves don't stop anti-tank guns. Maybe it would better to go off the Strength of the weapon, rather than the AP. I can't imagine how a fuschia would help much against a krak missile, either. (maybe S7+ ignores trees).

Nice idea, though, and it does address one of my pet hates about 40K... not sure how workable it is - maybe go playtest it and come back with some revisions, if any!

Mr_Smiley
08-01-2007, 13:33
A friend of mine wrote some experimental rules, with my help, about how certain weapons can penetrate certain cover and it works to a degree.
It was mainly Weapon x could penetrate Cover of type y.
The only problem is you have to spend a bit more time determining cover types.

Mojaco
08-01-2007, 13:55
A missile can be set off prematurly by a tree and a solid slug of a railcannon can be altred course by a fence. The cover save system doesn't always mean that the bullet is stopped by the cover, it just means it lost it's effectiveness.

The current system works rock solid, although I wouldn't be against to hit modifiers.

Maximuspandem
08-01-2007, 14:32
xibo, it seems a tad complex for a game that is supposed to be easy to play (after all it is made for 12yo's) a to hit mod wouldnt go amiss.

and xibo you seem to have a thing for stormtroopers.

Bookwrak
08-01-2007, 15:15
Although the idea has obviously had some thought into it, it's too complicated, and adds nothing to the game. In fact, I'd find playing by these rules would be for the detriment, especially the nerf to flamer weapons.

Bookwrak
08-01-2007, 15:15
Although the idea has obviously had some thought into it, it's too complicated, and adds nothing to the game. In fact, I'd find playing by these rules would be for the detriment, especially the nerf to flamer weapons.

Spook101
08-01-2007, 18:08
Too complex, but the idea of people further in does make sense.
suggestion

If a model size two or lower is in area terain size two or higher less than three inches, roll as normal
If said model is in same terain between three and six inches roll two dice and use lowest roll.
If the model is in more than six inches, no roll.

Size three models are kinda hard to miss.
Size one terain will still give him one dice roll for cover, being further into grass only makes you harder to see, not harder to hit. grass dont stop bullets

Lord Humongous
08-01-2007, 19:51
40k is squad centered- as often as possible, rolls are made and modifiers applied on a "per squad" basis, with (ideally) the "average weight of numbers" making up for lack of detail.

This breaks things down to a "per model" or even "per shot" basis. Which would work fine for a skirmish game (it would be great for, say, an area terrain rule for a Necromunda modification, as Necromunda has no area terrain) but its way to much work for a normal game of 40k.