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EyEwitness
05-02-2007, 15:32
I'm on a mission to put together four 5000 point armies for Epic. Then I'm going to rope in friends to play at least 1 proper game, which will hopefully get them addicted, and get them to get some other players in too. I was originally just going to do 2, but I had loads of epic bits from the Space Marine box set, and couldn't make up mind which ones I liked the best!

Anyway, over the next few days I'm going to be posting some lists for the armies and I'd like some feedback on them before I start buying anything. First up the Marine list, based on the Blood Angel army list. I've never used Marines in Epic before, so any feedback from experience Marine players will be appreciated.

5000 Point Blood Angels:
Death Company (6 stands) 475 points
Assault Detachment (with Chaplin) 225 points
Bike Detachment 200 points
Devastator Detachment (4 Razorbacks, Hunter) 425 points
Tactical Detachment (Supreme Commander, 2 Predators, Hunter) 625 points
Tactical Detachment (Commander, 2 Predators) 500 points
Terminator Detachment (4 Land Raiders) 725 points
Terminator Detachment (Librarian) 375 points
Thunderhawk Gunship 200 points
Whirlwind Detachment 300 points
Marauder Bombers 300 points
Reaver Titan 650 points

My thoughts so far are that the Terminators in the Land Raiders are too expensive, but it’s the only way to make use of all the Land Raiders I have already. I was going to use the T-hawk for the second Tactical detachment, but I decided I needed more tanks, so I think I'll use it for the Terminators with the Librarian to prevent any teleport accidents. I've also not decided on the mix of Bikes to Attack Bikes, or the types of the Predators (if I go for Baal, I'll need to drop a character or two). Any tips?

(Look out for IG list soon…)

Hena
05-02-2007, 15:45
Well, I'd try to get more AA protection in there. So either more hunters or thunderbolts would be very good idea. I'd say that pair or two of t'bolts would be nice there.

The terminator + land raiders are expensive, but that is the only way to get LRs into list might as well. And Land Speeders are something that I personally like (highly mobile MW). But I quess that is a preference thing.

I suggest taking both types of predators. Perhaps supremes' formation could use Annihilators and the other Destructors or Baals.

Chaos and Evil
05-02-2007, 17:30
I'd probably go with a 3000 point list to start with... 3000 pts is a rough equivilent to a 2000pt fantasy army, or a 1500pt 40k army, ie; the standard size most games are played at.

orangesm
06-02-2007, 03:00
Epic is a much more tactical game and with an expensive army like Space Marines you have to decide on on your overall battle plan for a list. I have this problem myself.
Things to consider in choosing units:

Defending your objectives, your side of the table (1/3-1/2 of the army)
Striking against your opponent, Taking & Holding objectives on your opponent's side of the table (1/3-1/2 of the army)
Units for specific purposes - anti-Titan, anti-Air, anti-whatever, these units should be included somehow in the other two


A Tactical, Dev, and Whirlwind formation should be more than adequate enough to hold your side of the table, one of the Tacticals can even back up the strike component. For your strike component you have a few options with the Marines, whether to go Air Assault - investment in Thunderhawks to transport the units to the fight. This can prove effective. Another option is a fast strike not using air assault - Terminators deep striking, Assault and Death Company supported by 1 Tactical in Rhinos screaming across the table to threaten their objectives and units. At 5000 pts you almost have the option to due two seperate strike forces.

Jambo
06-02-2007, 13:44
I don't have much experience on making armies using the BA list, and I agree that 3,000pts is a more sensible place to start if you've not played much and are hoping to teach others the rules. Having said that my impression of the list you've given is that you are very low on activations, only having 12. I have around this number in almost every 3,000pt list I make. Secondly you AA ability is sorely lacking, I know hunters blow some AA is necessary for a balanced force.

I think the guideline is to have 3-4 activations per 1,000 points in your army. Much less than this and your formations are too expensive (in general) and as a result you'll be out activated by your opponent, which is actually the real strength of the SM army. Keep your formations cheap and when your opponent has wasted their activations combating what little you allow them to shoot, you can gang up on a part of their force using your extra activations, this advantage is two fold for SMs since your likely to win the initiative next turn you will probably have broken/destroyed 2 enemy formations before they can respond. On the other hand of you have too many formations, each is too weak to do significant damage to the opponent and is too easily broken/rendered combat ineffective.

I tend to find that formations like whirlwinds, scouts and thunderbolts allow you to increase the number of activations in your army and are usually able to act without presenting the opponent with a decent target to shoot at. Hence they waste early activations, this is key if you're planning on using a thunderhawk as you want to be assaulting a formation on your terms and with no reall opportunity for the opponent to react and destroy the expensive units you've just deployed in their table half. This hold similarly for deploying by drop pods. If you try and deploy too much of your army in this way you can be destroyed piecemeal, so I recommend deploying at most 1/2 of your force in this way in 3,000pt games. Thunderbolts have the extra advantage that they provide some AA ability to your army which means you have to invest less in hunters, AA can be crucial to the game. Both Orks and Eldar are likley to have air assault elements and their fighter and bombers are also very good.

Land speeders are an excellent formation in the SM list, they are cheap and are one of the few sources of MW attacks. This is essential if you're going to take out Leman Russ tanks, Super Heavy tanks or Titans. What's more they support other assaults perfectly which is another strong theme behind the Epic SM army.

nealhunt
06-02-2007, 15:46
Doggone it! I had a long post typed out that disappeared into the ether. Recap (rather more perfunctory than normal).

Take these as suggestions:


Move some Preds to the Devs to create a concentrated base of fire and leave the Tacs more assault oriented. This would also let you take the Tacs in the Thawk if you wish.

Change the Commander with the tacs for a different character (Chaplain if you uput them in the Thawk). Commanders are hard to use.

Switch the Marauders for 2 Tbolt formations. You lose only a little bit of ground attack ability and gain a lot of AA ability if needed. Plus, the list is light on activations and this gives another.

Consider switching the bikes for speeders for the MW attacks.

====

You can take a core SM list as well. The BA list is a particular style that they favor but it's not their only method of deployment and the core list quickly solves some of your issues.

Remove Death Company
Split up the Termies/LR into 2 formations
Move Preds and Hunter to a separate formation and add Vindies (dedicated AT)
Add Devs to go in Thawk with Assault (both Termie formations can now teleport)
Same suggestions on aircraft, characters and bikes/speeders.

This should be point-neutral, separates out specialist units into distinct formations, and adds several activations for more overall flexibility.

====

Also:

1) 5K is a lot even for experienced gamers. I'd suggest starting at 3K or less and excluding air completely for the first game, possibly 2.

2) The best way to tweak the force is to decide how you will fight, so I think you'll need a few games to decide that. I gave general suggestions based on the force comp provided, but I'm not really sure what the overall game plan would be.

3) The BA list is experimental. Be prepared for minor adjustments when/if the Rules Review is completed.

Karhedron
06-02-2007, 22:06
I dunno but I am not a huge fan of the Reaver Titan. It's firepower is lacking in the MW/TK department and while it is fairly tough, I do not see it bringing anything to the table that you cannot get with Land Raider detachments.

I would say either go the whole way and get a Warlord or keep it cheap and get Warhounds (which do not suffer reactor crits like the battle titans do). Maybe it is just me but the Reaver leaves me cold.

P.S. A little more air defence would not go amiss.

Chaos and Evil
06-02-2007, 22:27
You should try ForgeWorld's mixed configuration Reaver... a rocket launcher, a Volcano Cannon and a Gatling Blaster, great all-round firepower!

Karhedron
07-02-2007, 19:57
You should try ForgeWorld's mixed configuration Reaver... a rocket launcher, a Volcano Cannon and a Gatling Blaster, great all-round firepower!
Sounds like a more promising mix. To be honest, I have a lot of metal titans and spare weapons, I can probably come up with almost any configuration you like. The trick is persuading opponents to let me field them. :angel:

I think they restricted the titan weapon options in the main rules precisely to avoid attempts to find killer combos.

Chaos and Evil
08-02-2007, 08:01
I think they restricted the titan weapon options in the main rules precisely to avoid attempts to find killer combos.

Nah, the decision was financial (They couldn't afford to make many different titan weapon combos because they were mostly dealing with new sculpts).

It says in the Q&A inside the rulebook that they intend(ed) to bring out more titan configurations, and that there would also be rules for making your own configurations.

Neither happened, again due to financial reasons.

But yeah, Epic: A was originally supposed to have multiple configurations & modular rules for each Titan class.

Hena
08-02-2007, 08:31
There is talk about multiple patterns, but completely modular rules ... unless I missed something no. AMTL 2.0 has rules for certain modularity but it restricts killer combos.

Chaos and Evil
08-02-2007, 08:40
unless I missed something no.

Read the FAQ in the Epic Rulebook.

Jervis writes that there will be two sets of rules:

- Fixed configurations for tournament games.
- Modular configuration rules for non-tournament games.

Neither happened... (Though the FW multi-weapon Reaver is nicely balanced at 650 points in my experience)

Hena
08-02-2007, 09:39
Ah, ok. I was talking about tournament lists.

So we agree that for tournament lists the N amount of weapon patterns (for non AMTL lists) is the way to go?

Edit: Btw, which page would make it easier to find as there is a lot of pages of FAQ in the end of the book?