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inq.serge
26-03-2007, 11:42
I was thinking of makeing an IG/IN army consisting of a Emp class battleship, Lots and lots of stormtroopers with valkeries, lots of vultures, 1+ baneblades/baneblade variants and most of all, lots and lots of lightnings.

The army will have the theme of my Inq. Inquisitor lord and the Progrean army (AKA the army list that I made with 44 small st4 ap6 blasts per turn). Lead by my Inq. RT.

so I have some questions:

*Where are the army lists with points and all for IG/IN in the Living Rulebook? (I.E. Like the experimental Ad.mech/necron/chaos/tau rules layout)

*Where are the rules for lightning/lightning strikes? (There are models, so why shouldn't there be rules?)

*Are there any rules for Stormhammers?

Thanks if anyone answers. I hope I'll start play Epic, would be nice with some more tactical/strategic thinking.


And No, I haven't read the whole rulebook yet. (Well I read it last year but forgot almost everything.)

Hena
26-03-2007, 14:07
The basic IG list (Steel Legion) is in rulebook chapter 6 along with Marines and Orks.

Epic lists don't all have everything in them (as it would make balancing a lot complicated). Also there was a "schism" between SG and FW earlier it seems. None the less the base lists don't have (and won't have) lightnings in them. Some new lists can have it. See for example

Elysians
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=74;t=6801

Krieg
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=74&t=8168&st=120#entry193390

Obvisously this applies to Stormhammer (which is probably in Krieg and Armoured Regiment)
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=74;t=8356;st=0

nealhunt
26-03-2007, 14:26
*Where are the army lists with points and all for IG/IN in the Living Rulebook? (I.E. Like the experimental Ad.mech/necron/chaos/tau rules layout)

All the army lists are in the "Gaming" section of the respective rulebooks. That's 6.0 for the core book, and 4.0 for Stormwind.

Keep in mind that the point values are dependent on both the army list organization and the conditions of the GT scenario. If you diverge very far from either one, they will be unreliable with respect to gauging balance.


*Where are the rules for lightning/lightning strikes? (There are models, so why shouldn't there be rules?)

*Are there any rules for Stormhammers?

If I'm not mistaken, both models have stat lines in the Collectors' Models section of the rulebook. I'm certain the Stormhammers do, but I might be mistaken on the Lightnings. Collectors' models do not have GT point values.

If you want to play them in an "official" GT scenario, they would count as Baneblades and Thunderbolts. If you have a flexible gaming group that doesn't mind stuff occasionally being a bit unbalanced, there are multiple fan-based stat lines (and point costs) floating around for each.

StugMeister
26-03-2007, 22:33
If I'm not mistaken, both models have stat lines in the Collectors' Models section of the rulebook. I'm certain the Stormhammers do, but I might be mistaken on the Lightnings. Collectors' models do not have GT point values.

Yup, the StormHammers sure do - I use them regularly in my Siegemasters army.

Chaos and Evil
26-03-2007, 22:43
If I'm not mistaken, both models have stat lines in the Collectors' Models section of the rulebook. I'm certain the Stormhammers do, but I might be mistaken on the Lightnings. Collectors' models do not have GT point values.

The Collector's stats are next-to useless most of the time, due largely to their lack of point values and formation sizes, and partially due to the fact that they were obviously thrown together with about two minutes' thought for each vehicle.

Sorry Neal you know this is my pet hate. :D



Hena: Krieg doesn't have Lightnings or Stormhammers, but the Armoured Regiment has both.

Would it be particularly unbalancing to use both choices with the standard Steel Legion armylist?

I doubt the Lightnings would be a problem, however Stormhammers have recieved very little testing as far as I know, so if anything'd cause a problem, it'd be them.

Hena
27-03-2007, 03:43
Would it be particularly unbalancing to use both choices with the standard Steel Legion armylist?

I doubt the Lightnings would be a problem, however Stormhammers have recieved very little testing as far as I know, so if anything'd cause a problem, it'd be them.
Personally I think that Lightnings are too good. They are like Thunderbolts, except ranges are better (kind of characteristic when it comes to new units, like X but better). I don't mind that so much in the Elysian list as it's not really overpowering, but in other lists that might be a problem.

My pet peeve is that new lists are upgunning aircraft eanges and AA ranges and it is codex creep at it's worst.

Chaos and Evil
27-03-2007, 10:53
To be fair, they're only following what GW itself has done with aircraft / weapons. (Lightning & Tau Skyrays)

Hena
27-03-2007, 12:01
Perhaps. But playability should go over other reasons.

Chaos and Evil
27-03-2007, 14:45
*shrug*

As long as they're pointed correctly, it's playable.

inq.serge
27-03-2007, 19:18
One more question; How much pts is a warmonger/imperator titan?

Pulsar
27-03-2007, 23:06
One more question; How much pts is a warmonger/imperator titan?

i may be making it up, but the number that pops in to my head is 1925 points, but i'm not sure.:D

Chaos and Evil
28-03-2007, 00:05
They're 1800-ish. (No official points cost)

inq.serge
28-03-2007, 17:06
And two more things. When it say I.E. You may purchase an extra harlequin unit for +x pts, does the word "Unit" meen a stand?

And the solitaire, has it its own stand and moves indipendatly?

Chaos and Evil
28-03-2007, 18:10
A unit is a stand of 5 men.

nealhunt
28-03-2007, 19:39
As long as they're pointed correctly, it's playable.

That's just not true. Some things can break the game even if they supposedly have a correct point cost. As a simplistic example:

Coin Toss
Point Cost - the same as your opponent's army
Flip a coin. If you get a heads, you win. If tails, you lose.

It's nominally pointed fairly as buying leaves you with exactly a 50% chance to win, but it still destroys the game. Or another one:

Mega Unit X - all armies
1000 points
If you purchase a MUX and your opponent does not, you win.

Fair. Everyone can buy one. Same cost. Same effects. However, you just killed off 1000 points of army selection for the now-mandatory MUX. Again, it breaks the game.

Big, tough, high-firepower aircraft formations are an inherent problem for the game mechanics. The aircraft rules were never intended to take them into account. Point costs can only do so much. They do the same thing as my two examples (increase luck factor and decrease freedom in viable army composition) even if not to that same, oversimplified extreme.

Hena
28-03-2007, 19:44
And two more things. When it say I.E. You may purchase an extra harlequin unit for +x pts, does the word "Unit" meen a stand?

And the solitaire, has it its own stand and moves indipendatly?
Unit is a single stand (4 - 7 individual models).

I don't know about solitaire. But depends on a the classification. If it is a character, then it's added into another unit. If it is infantry, then it is a unit by itself (and probably should have a few harlequins on a stand as well). Normal human sized models never move by themselves.

Pulsar
28-03-2007, 20:06
i think that a Solitaire is a nother stand but it has to stay with the Harlquin troupe.
where are you geting the Solitaire rules from?

Hena
28-03-2007, 20:14
I assume you are using the Fanatics rules?
http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/FO55EpicHarlequin.pdf

If so then the solitaire is indeed an infantry unit. So there should be 4 - 7 models on the stand. Great Harlequin, High Warlock and Death Jester are (as far as I can see) character, so they are added to a single unit.

And as for the formations. It seems that everything else is an upgrade to the Harlequin troupe. So you can have a single Harlequin formation in the army and they all work as a single fomration.

inq.serge
28-03-2007, 20:15
The Harlequin Pdf

Chaos and Evil
28-03-2007, 21:19
That's just not true. Some things can break the game even if they supposedly have a correct point cost. As a simplistic example:

Coin Toss
Point Cost - the same as your opponent's army
Flip a coin. If you get a heads, you win. If tails, you lose.

It's nominally pointed fairly as buying leaves you with exactly a 50% chance to win, but it still destroys the game. Or another one:

Mega Unit X - all armies
1000 points
If you purchase a MUX and your opponent does not, you win.

Fair. Everyone can buy one. Same cost. Same effects. However, you just killed off 1000 points of army selection for the now-mandatory MUX. Again, it breaks the game.

Big, tough, high-firepower aircraft formations are an inherent problem for the game mechanics. The aircraft rules were never intended to take them into account. Point costs can only do so much. They do the same thing as my two examples (increase luck factor and decrease freedom in viable army composition) even if not to that same, oversimplified extreme.

There is no balance in wargaming, only the illusion of balance, sure.

But I don't think lightnings are game breaking.

Let's keep to the specifics, not generalities about MUX units. (Thunderhawks for Marines lol) :)

nealhunt
29-03-2007, 14:41
Let's keep to the specifics, not generalities about MUX units. (Thunderhawks for Marines lol) :)

I don't want to get into debating specific units on here. I just pop in occasionally to see if anyone has asked questions. I prefer to engage in any development conversations on the official boards or on TacCom.