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Darloc
27-03-2007, 11:50
Hi guys,
Our local store is going to start a Mordheim campaign, I never played it before so I need some advice to make my warband.
I saw some list around, what surprise me is that there is almost no armor or no shield, they are not worth it at the beginning?
I was thinking going for Reikland or Middenheim band, starting with max heroes and then adding swordmen and marksmen to the mix. Does it sound like a good idea?
I would like some advice on equipement that are a must have to start, for exemple is it better to give the capitain a crossbow or a brace of pistols?
Is it better to have two weapons or a shield?
Are 2 handed weapons really worth it? I am thinking that 2 weapons are actually better.
That all for now but I will probably have more questions later, thanks if you can help me.

Spartan-001: Master Chief
27-03-2007, 12:11
If your thinkning of using a mercenary warband i sugest marenburgers (spelling) beacause they are loaded. i'd definatley max out the hero slots( for more exploration dice and the fact that young bloods can level up quick )drop the shield and give your guys a hammer and an axe ( to close combat attacks).

I'd definatly give your captain a crossbow because he can stand as far away as possible and shoot things pretty good asweel ( you dnt want to lose the toughest guy in your warband believe me ). in different cercumstances( spelling ) 2 hnded weapons can be cool but thats just up to you if you want to use them personaly i wont use them

Sparatn

Darloc
27-03-2007, 12:18
Thanks for this reply, Spartan, so axe and hammer, sounds good, but are axes better than sword? I can see parry being sometime useless but it might save you in a tight situation, no?
What about armour? is it better to wait or maybe give some light one to my champions? At the moment, without shield they have no save...
Maybe it's because I usually play chaos marines, make me fell naked not to have a armor save.

gorgon
27-03-2007, 13:11
I saw some list around, what surprise me is that there is almost no armor or no shield, they are not worth it at the beginning?

Nope. S is cheap in Mordheim. Armor isn't. Plus, many crit results ignore armor. Skills like Dodge and Step Aside, and items like Lucky Charms are generally more effective.


I was thinking going for Reikland or Middenheim band, starting with max heroes and then adding swordmen and marksmen to the mix. Does it sound like a good idea?

Yep, that's the right approach. Heroes provide the fuel (wyrdstone/GCs) for your warband. Don't go overboard on equipment early and keep your numbers up. Mordheim is mostly a game of quantity, not quality.


I would like some advice on equipement that are a must have to start, for exemple is it better to give the capitain a crossbow or a brace of pistols?

Depends on the warband, but my policy is that if shooting skills are available, give heroes weapon with range and keep them out of danger. Not that you won't need them to support close combats...you will. But it's simply most efficient to allow your henchmen to take the brunt of close combat and your heroes to be your designated shooters. If you run Reiklanders, you can get scary quickly with a bunch of heroes with xbows and Quick Shot to support your high BS Marksmen. Don't overlook Averlanders...they are a highly underrated merc warband.


Is it better to have two weapons or a shield?
Are 2 handed weapons really worth it? I am thinking that 2 weapons are actually better.

In most circumstances, two weapons are better. If nothing else, more attacks = more chances for criticals. I've used heroes with Strongman and 2-handed weapons, but those were isolated, specialized cases. Volume of attacks (whether shooting or in close combat) are normally king in Mordheim.

Dyrnwyn
27-03-2007, 21:02
If you're going to start playing right from the beginning of the campaign, max out on heros and buy good equipment/hire henchmen later on. If you're going to be out for a couple weeks and then come in, consider making a warband that consists of 3 models with lots of good equipment, and take advantage of your low rating to attack the strongest warband, and then run away. We have 3 bands in our current campaign that are rated over 250. With a starting warband with rating 51 or so, you could ping one model of the strongest warband, then run away, and you could get +4 or 5 experience per model just for surviving.

Darloc
27-03-2007, 22:09
Gorgon: about shields, is it a better choice than armor then? Meaning he can't ignore the shield if he ignore the armor?
Thanks for the advices, I will post my list here when I have decided what to put in. The campaign should run for 6 week, around 8 people playing, should be fun! :)

Dyrnwyn
27-03-2007, 23:33
Gorgon: about shields, is it a better choice than armor then? Meaning he can't ignore the shield if he ignore the armor?
Thanks for the advices, I will post my list here when I have decided what to put in. The campaign should run for 6 week, around 8 people playing, should be fun! :)

No, shields just give you a +1 bonus to your save, or a 6+ if you have none. They're useful if you manage to get your hands on a mount and Heavy/Gromril armor, but not really otherwise. In Mordhiem, you need to have a 3+ or 4+ save to be getting any save with reliablity, and you need a 1+ or 0+ armor save to be making most of your saves.

There are just too many warbands running around with blackpowder weapons, S4+ models, and axes. Heavy armor on it's own is often rendered useless.

Catferret
28-03-2007, 10:12
...consider making a warband that consists of 3 models with lots of good equipment...you could ping one model of the strongest warband, then run away, and you could get +4 or 5 experience per model just for surviving.

Problem is you can't voluntarily Bottle Out until you have suffered 25% casualties. That's a potential of 2 dead models out of your starting 3. Not a good idea...

Quin 242
28-03-2007, 10:56
Sadly there has been some poor advice on here so far.
Sorry guys but true.

A 3 man warband is the worst idea EVER for the reason that Catferret gives above.
Try and get the max of 5-6 heroes to start to help you roll for shards.
Marienburgers start out with more goods but that gets overtaken by the bonus Strength or +BS of the other two mercinary bands in one or two games in a campain.
NEVER give your leader a crossbow as that prevents him from moving. A BOW now.. that IS a great idea. He can move up to provide his leadership to your band AND still use his BS of 4 (in most cases) when not in close combat.

Sad to say but the BEST warband out there is the Skaven.
For the points they get the best stats and the Skaven wall of slinging doom is just evil. Skaven also have 3 ways to get extra attacks while every other warband has to pray for a 6 on 2d6 AND THEN a 4-6 on a d6 to get an extra attack, Skaven just need to roll a 2-5 or a 10-12 and they can get up to TWO extra attacks per hero. (plus the usual method) thru tailfighting and Art of silent death/claws. At thier high initiative, anytime you don't kill them on your charge (which is difficult to get since they have a run/charge move of 10-12 inches) they are going to come back and slaughter you.

Axes are THE most wasted points in the game. Almost no one uses any form of armor anyways. Buy a sword with the money for the opportunity to parry instead.

Darloc. If you are going mercinary go with Reikland and get your max heroes then load up on the BS 4 marksmen in small groups. once they get an advance you are hoping for the BS upgrade of course, then you can buy experienced warriors to add to that group :)

After all I said about skaven I play Reiklanders in my local campaign. I started with all the heroes (top three with swords/clubs & bows and youngbloods with hammer/dagger) and 5 marksmen (3 long bows/2 crossbows)
After 2 games I've added 2 swordsmen w/ 2 swords each.
Oh, Any time you have a spare 10 GC... get helmets for your heroes.

gorgon
28-03-2007, 17:13
A 3 man warband is the worst idea EVER for the reason that Catferret gives above.

I don't advocate playing that way. However, I have seen a similar strategy employed well with Dwarfs. The extra shard and the rerolls on the injury chart are the big reasons why it worked, however. I wouldn't try it with other warbands.


Try and get the max of 5-6 heroes to start to help you roll for shards.

Which is what virtually everyone has advised.


Marienburgers start out with more goods but that gets overtaken by the bonus Strength or +BS of the other two mercinary bands in one or two games in a campain.

The poster mentioned Middenheimers, not Marienburgers.

And honestly, I'd consider Marienburgers if I was considering Middenheimers. The S4 is nice, but S is cheap in Mordheim. Starting out with multiple blunderbusses, on the other hand...priceless. :D


NEVER give your leader a crossbow as that prevents him from moving. A BOW now.. that IS a great idea. He can move up to provide his leadership to your band AND still use his BS of 4 (in most cases) when not in close combat.

A crossbow doesn't prevent him from moving. It only prevents him from moving on the turns you choose to fire it. ;) As long as you make sound tactical decisions, there's not a problem. I rarely find myself wishing I could move up 4" and fire. Usually you're either in a good firing position and stay put to avoid shooting penalties, or you run or charge.

The S4 of xbows really makes a difference in the early stages of a campaign. You won't have a lot of shots and you won't hit as frequently as you will later, so you have make your hits count. After you can afford hunting arrows and have Quick Shot, then bows start making sense. You can always move equipment around later as needed.


Sad to say but the BEST warband out there is the Skaven.

Fine, but the poster was looking at merc bands. And although people gravitate to Reiklanders, I think Middenheimers, Marienburgers and Averlanders are at least as viable.


Axes are THE most wasted points in the game. Almost no one uses any form of armor anyways. Buy a sword with the money for the opportunity to parry instead.

Agreed...stay away from axes.

Dyrnwyn
28-03-2007, 20:21
Problem is you can't voluntarily Bottle Out until you have suffered 25% casualties. That's a potential of 2 dead models out of your starting 3. Not a good idea...

First off, I didn't necessarily mean rout. You can stand back and just take ranged potshots at the strongest band, and then just hide for the rest of the game. It doesn't work in 1 on 1 games, but every game in our campaign so far has contained at least three players, usually six and at one point, ten. More importantly, 1 model in 3 is 33%. You don't need to lose two models to rout, just one. All you have to do is suiside charge one model at the strongest warband on the table while keeping your own from attacks from weaker bands, and then rout if you feel like it.

But I admit to having a brainfart; There are two people in our current campaign who have successfuly run the three model warband (three if you cout the Skaven guy with only 4 models) and none of them play Mercenaries. They play Dwarves and Possessed. I'm not sure how well the Mercenaries would do with three models.

Quin 242
29-03-2007, 02:13
I don't advocate playing that way. However, I have seen a similar strategy employed well with Dwarfs. The extra shard and the rerolls on the injury chart are the big reasons why it worked, however. I wouldn't try it with other warbands.

Dwarves and, as Dyrnwyn pointed out, possessed are the only warbands that MIGHT make it work. Possessed and mutants ain't cheap and you have to make them mutated when you buy them so... I could see having maybe 4-5 models.
Dwarves get the added shard bonus to help get over expensive starting warbands and the added toughness and hard to kill rules will keep them in the fight longer than your average band.



Which is what virtually everyone has advised.
Just reinforcing the good bits of advice




The poster mentioned Middenheimers, not Marienburgers.
And honestly, I'd consider Marienburgers if I was considering Middenheimers. The S4 is nice, but S is cheap in Mordheim. Starting out with multiple blunderbusses, on the other hand...priceless.

Was responding to Sparton's advice there. You can BUY blunderbusses. You can't BUY strength.




A crossbow doesn't prevent him from moving. It only prevents him from moving on the turns you choose to fire it. As long as you make sound tactical decisions, there's not a problem. I rarely find myself wishing I could move up 4" and fire. Usually you're either in a good firing position and stay put to avoid shooting penalties, or you run or charge.

The S4 of xbows really makes a difference in the early stages of a campaign. You won't have a lot of shots and you won't hit as frequently as you will later, so you have make your hits count. After you can afford hunting arrows and have Quick Shot, then bows start making sense. You can always move equipment around later as needed.

I like my leader mobile at all times. Sometimes that extra 4" makes all the difference in the world. And a bow allows him to move AND fire :) My up to seven BS5 Marksmen will be standing around enough that my leader shouldn't be :)




Fine, but the poster was looking at merc bands. And although people gravitate to Reiklanders, I think Middenheimers, Marienburgers and Averlanders are at least as viable.

Just because you are looking at one thing doesn't mean that you shouldn't have the benefits of something else pointed out. Many a person intending to drive a Toyota now drive Nissans or Fords...




Agreed...stay away from axes.

Ahh we DO agree on a thing

But now back to advicing... I had to cut short for work this morning...

If you are using the additional rules for Opulent goods http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/OpulentGoods.pdf
Then getting toughened leathers for only 5Gc for each of your heros is almost worth doing. (but then the Axe MIGHT be usable :))
Like I said before, Helmets are gold well spent.

If you are facing a lot of hidden opponents (Skaven) then get a lantern or torches.

If you have an expensive hero with a lot of gear, 10 GC for a Lucky Charm can be a life and GC saver in the end run.

When you have maxed out your warband, then Hunting Arrows for your heroes and Ithilmar weapons are the things to get.
Extra S and I are always good to have.

If you get skills, take Jump up, Dodge, Resiliant, and Step Aside in that order to get your heroes survivability. Unless you have a Characteristic increase that has you focused on one thing or another (such as +S then focus on Melee, or +bs to put you on the missile weapon track).
I know that other folks will have you focussing on other stuff but when it's all said and done, you want your guys alive at the end of the battle.

TKitch
29-03-2007, 02:26
If you're doing mercs, here's a generic list of tips:

1) Middies are the most underpowered after a couple games. Their bonus is merely a single stat increase on 3 heroes. Not that good.

2) Reikies are (generally) considered to be the best of the Rulebook Mercs. The 12" native leadership + BS4 (going up to 5 with a roll) Marksmen.

3) Marienberg is also VERY good. That 100GC will add up to 3 warriors with 2 ccw. That's a BIG benefit.

4) Armor is useless. Crits make it so. Also, it's easy to end up with a -2 or -3 armor save mod, so it's not worth doing.


Max on your heroes. They earn you money, this is an ALWAYS positive thing.

Free Dagger + a cheap weapon (hammer/mace) is a very useful thing. Cheap and effective.


Use cover and movement to cover your butt.run and hide behind walls, and use that. An additional -1 to hit is always a bonus.


That's a good start, enjoy.

Gensuke626
29-03-2007, 04:00
The two weapons I advocate are Hammers and Swords. Swords and the potential parries are probably one of the most useful things I've seen. Sword and buckler or even two sword warriors have turned the tides of battle in games I've played. I also advocate the hammer because it's cheap and nasty. the stunning on 2-4 rule makes it very valueable to have and the critical chart for bludgeoning weapons is just fun...a crit 6 on that char means that the model is immediately taken OOA if they fail their armor save.

In all my years of playing Mordhiem, I will say that the Blunderbuss is the scariest weapon to put on a youngblood with a spear...I hate that thing. Give him a luck charm too and suddenly I'm doing my best to scatter and hide...but then I'm a coward (though i play Sisters so...I don't know why I play like skaven.)

Doublehanded weapons are great on models with strongman. Especially if you can get Strongman and lightning reflexes, it's priceless to see someone charge a model and be able to say "Ok! Your I is lower than mine! I strike first with my 2-hander!"

Catferret
29-03-2007, 12:34
I tend to only use Swords on Leaders, as a status symbol. If I am using Mercs then Swordsmen get a pair of them too for obvious reasons.

My Norse mainly use axes. Clubs just didn't feel right despite being great, and swords were too expensive for everybody. Norse Heroes can get the equivalent of the Swordmaster skill which applies to axes and 2-handers though.

2-handed weapons are quite nice on people with S4 because they can't be parried. It's a nasty trick to pull on Heroes. It works better if you have multiple Attacks though. Norse Berzerkers are prime candidates for 2-handers with S4 and Frenzy. Although giving them a pair of Axes is pretty nasty as well.

gorgon
29-03-2007, 13:08
Was responding to Sparton's advice there. You can BUY blunderbusses. You can't BUY strength.

I beg to differ. You can certainly buy flails, morningstars, halberds, double handed weapons, pistols and xbow pistols. You can also take the Mighty Blow skill if you don't get the characteristic increase or make a diving charge if you need to.

I'm not saying those are all preferred options, only that it IS easy to get extra S in Mordheim. And that's why I'd consider Reiklanders, Averlanders or Marienburgers over Middenheimers, although you can't really go wrong with mercs in general. Their flexibility is what makes them strong.


I like my leader mobile at all times. Sometimes that extra 4" makes all the difference in the world. And a bow allows him to move AND fire :) My up to seven BS5 Marksmen will be standing around enough that my leader shouldn't be :)

And that's fine that you feel that way. However, realize that three Quick Shot xbow heroes can pump out similar firepower, leaving more members of your warband to handle the close combat work. There are efficiencies in keeping your heroes out of the fray as long as possible and allowing more replaceable henchmen to take the brunt of the close combat.

I'm not advocating this approach above all others, as there are many ways to skin the cat. But keep in mind there are others here with sizable Mordheim experience that know a thing or two. And maybe a few more. ;)

TKitch
29-03-2007, 22:13
Swords work best on crap guys.

Who cares about status, when if you're hit on a 3, you've got a 50% chance to parry.

Give the youngbloods swords and they'll parry.

(The only other time to use swords is with Expert Swordsman.)

Fastforward rlz
01-04-2007, 14:09
Hurmm I read about the first half of this tread and I have to say what happend to playing for fun? Don't tell him which warband to play just because you think it's better. It's up to him through reading the background and such.

Quin 242
01-04-2007, 22:24
If you start a new game and lose the first 10 games you tend to lose interest

Catferret
02-04-2007, 02:55
If you start a new game and lose the first 10 games you tend to lose interest

Yup. I don't mind losing but I'd still like to have a chance to win some games.

Quin 242
02-04-2007, 03:55
Once you have the rules down and you have a few games in you, them go and play themed armies/warbands for fun.
The original poster actually stated specifically that he HAD NOT PLAYED BEFORE.

Giving him tips to win is sort of what he was expecting.

We could say how fluffy Witch hunters are with Dual pistols or Ostlanders with double barrel hunting rifles but it won't win him any games.

carik
30-04-2007, 17:34
Hurmm I read about the first half of this tread and I have to say what happend to playing for fun? Don't tell him which warband to play just because you think it's better. It's up to him through reading the background and such.

In general, I agree. Pick an army/team/warband/gang/whatever that you like the look of, and that you like the background on, or you won't enjoy playing them. (Unless you're one of those people who only enjoys games if they win every game... )

On the other hand, as other people have mentioned, it's nice to know how different armies stack up before you start playing. For instance, I'm just starting, and I'm torn between Witch Hunters and Reiklanders... I like the leadership bonus of the Reiklanders, and I suspect they'll suit my style of play better, but the Witch Hunters also look like a lot of fun. The idea of charging forward with a mass of crazed lunatics, accompanied by a pack of howling mutts, may be too good to pass up. In the end, I expect it'll come down to two questions: what do I have miniatures for, and what will do well?