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Steel_Legion
28-03-2007, 23:05
After pondering for a while we have 2 types of Cav in Warhammer; Heavy and Light, Heavy ranging from Empire Knights to Elven Dragon Princes, light goes from Mounted Squires to Goblin Wolf Riders, but is there any medium? For example anything with just heavy armour and a spear or lance? I didnt see anything like this in DoW (damn you shield! Ruin my fun!) since I would quite like some Demi-Lancers in my Empire Holy Roman Empire themed army, but I doubt that is going to happen. So is there anything out there that has about a 4+ or 3+ "Medium Save" as I can't think of any

Archaon
28-03-2007, 23:11
Empire Outriders have the option to get barding thus improving to 4+ though losing their Fast Cavalry status in the process

I think HE Silver Helms could have a 4+ (or better) too though i'm not sure (and too lazy to get up to look at the book:D ).

Other than that i don't recall medium cavalry somewhere else.. it is strictly defined between light and heavy cavalry.

lilljonas
28-03-2007, 23:14
Fully decked out Goblin Wolfriders with spears are medium. DoW have medium cavalry, don't they?

EDIT: they seem to don't have'em. My memory is getting all old and senile. :( Strangely enough, the Ooglah Khan wolfriders have shields, light armour and are mounted (which should give them 4+ and not be fast cavalry), but their rules clearly states that they are Fast Cav, and not medium. But since they have spears and 4+ armour, they are in effect medium cavalry, and should be able to perform the role of medium cavalry on the board. Whatever that is, I don't know, since there's almost no medium cavalry in the game.

lokigod
28-03-2007, 23:18
um most people say wild riders are meduim cav.

gorenut
28-03-2007, 23:24
I think many people consider Orc Boar boys as medium cav as well.

DarkAngel74
28-03-2007, 23:30
TK Heavy Horsemen fits very well. Spear, light armor, and shield. That makes 4+ armor saves. Certainly not a 'heavy' panzer-like cavalry there is, but it is not classified as a light cavalry as well.

Angry Lawyer
28-03-2007, 23:31
I'd say Winged Lancers could fit the bill, although they're on the heavier side.

-Angry Lawyer

explorator
28-03-2007, 23:33
Don't forget Tomb Kings. Even though they are called 'Skeleton Heavy Horsemen' I think they are Medium Cav. Spear, light armor, and a shield gives a 4+ save, and they have a low points cost to match.

lilljonas
28-03-2007, 23:36
The follow up would be: does anyone use them, and for what do they use them? Are they just substitutes for armies who have no heavy cavalry?

Allarion
28-03-2007, 23:41
The Glade Riders from the old wood elf list was Medium Cav
Light Armour and Sheilds for a 4+ save and they had spears and fast calvary still,
but now they don't even have any armour so that's gone

Kahadras
28-03-2007, 23:41
I would say any mounted unit with a good save (4+ or better) and yet still being fully mobile should count as medium cavalry i.e without the barding move penalty. This probably makes medium cavalry pretty rare IMO. Best example off the top of my head would be Silver helms

Kahadras

Irakaz
28-03-2007, 23:41
Centigors are pretty middle of the road.

monkeyboyalpha
29-03-2007, 00:38
Well, we know anything with a 5+ save is light cav. Respectively anything with a 2+ or even a 1+ save we refer to as heavy cav, so really anything inbetween those 2 is what you would call med cav, even though the term doesn't exist in the rule book.

My gobbo wolf rider are light cav as standard, but increase the armour save and they theoreticaly become med cav as they aren't armoured enough to be called heavy cav.

Likewise with the Boar Boyz, best you can get is a 3+ save, so I suppose that's as heavy cav as we get.



MBA

lilljonas
29-03-2007, 00:49
But Boar Boyz have more survivability (toughness, pretty good save) and lot stronger attacks (boar tusks) than 4+save humans with spears and common corses, pushing it towards the heavy cavalry side. I'd say it's sitting on the fence between the two cathegories. Gobbo Wolf Riders with spears, light armour and spears, however, are very much the archetype of medium cavalry.

Stouty
29-03-2007, 00:58
TK Heavy Horsemen fits very well. Spear, light armor, and shield. That makes 4+ armor saves. Certainly not a 'heavy' panzer-like cavalry there is, but it is not classified as a light cavalry as well.

TK heavy horsemen are infact fast medium infantry. They hit with less punch than orc boys and in combat often have the same save.:p They're not even particularly fast (8" a turn without magic. Wow, you sure are speedy).

Joewrightgm
29-03-2007, 02:20
Wolf riders and Boar Riders, IMO are good examples of medium cavalry units, as has been stated.

Coragus
29-03-2007, 03:20
Lots of good responses here. One more would be DOW cav without paying for the barding. 3+ save would qualify as "medium".

Highborn
29-03-2007, 03:33
I'd qualify most unbarded cavalry as medium cavalry (that has an 8-9" charge, at least - boars are as slow as heavy cavalry despite being unbarded). Something that charges as far as light cavalry, hits as hard as heavy cavalry and is relatively inexpensive compared to that race's heavies.

TheWarSmith
29-03-2007, 05:12
centigors are aguably medium cavalry as well.

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-03-2007, 05:36
The follow up would be: does anyone use them, and for what do they use them? Are they just substitutes for armies who have no heavy cavalry?


Thats the problem, there isn't really a role that medium cavalry is suited for, at least not better than heavy or light.

Medium cavalry might have an inch longer movement on heavy cavalry, but thats all the advantage they get, at expense of armour and/or cc punch.

Often, if you have the choice, there are no reason to take medium cavalry at all, as they don't really fill any specific role in Warhammer. They are not mobile enough to count as armoured light cavalry, and they are a bit light to use for frontal assaults and pure combat troops.

Vattendroppe
29-03-2007, 07:17
So is there anything out there that has about a 4+ or 3+ "Medium Save" as I can't think of any

Well, the kieslev cavs are 3+, DoW heavy cav are 3+, TK heavy cav is 3+, silver helms can be 4+ or 3+ (IIRC), so sure, there are many types of medium cav :)

Highborn
29-03-2007, 07:36
The main reason I see would be cost, and the extra 2" charge can be quiet popular. The main two that I see are naked silverhelms in High Elf cav armies, and naked (read: no barding) Black Knights in VC armies. For HE, I imagine this is a matter of cost, while VC the extra 2" can get the jump on heavy cav and get you striking first with Killing Blow.

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-03-2007, 08:19
High Elves really have no reason at all to do it. You are stuck with barding, so the only thing is a few points of the price, for an inferior model. 3+ or 4+ is much worse than 2+.

VC have a valid reason to do it, although I still don't think it's a good idea. First of you have movement magic to do it anyway, and second, Black Knights really isn't that impressive in combat, killing blow is more of a gimmick than a real weapon.

squiggoth
29-03-2007, 09:22
So is there anything out there that has about a 4+ or 3+ "Medium Save" as I can't think of any

Goblin Wolf Riders with light armour, Orc Boar Boyz, Centigors, and don't Outriders get a 4+ save?

ashc
29-03-2007, 09:30
There are plenty of medium cavalry options; perhaps you don't see them in your area that often Steel_Legion; which would actually be quite surprising as some of the medium cavalry units mentioned in this thread are firm favourites in armylists.

Ash

Highborn
29-03-2007, 10:33
High Elves really have no reason at all to do it. You are stuck with barding, so the only thing is a few points of the price, for an inferior model. 3+ or 4+ is much worse than 2+.

VC have a valid reason to do it, although I still don't think it's a good idea. First of you have movement magic to do it anyway, and second, Black Knights really isn't that impressive in combat, killing blow is more of a gimmick than a real weapon.

My mistake on the High Elves - it is, of course, the barding that is mandatory and the heavy armour and shield that are optional. The point saving adds up to 20 points per unit, with a further 35 points saved by skimping on the command group. I've never done it myself, but I can see the value in having a unit of five naked helms for harrassment if you're going to field a cavalry force.

Killing blow is definitely more a gimmick than anything (I've made the same point myself a thousand times before on the topic of the Wood Elves' Lethal Shot), but it's a gimmick that is feared and occasionally kills something. That, and most canny opponents will recognise and won't let you follow through on a charge with Vanhel's. After all, there's only one reason a VC player would sit a Black Knight unit 8" away from a unit's flank, and it only takes two or three dispel dice to stop. The extra 2" of movement for Black Knights sans barding can mean the difference between being a sitting duck and parking yourself in the flank of a heavy cav unit, rolling 3-4 dice and looking for a 6 to win the combat.

WLBjork
29-03-2007, 12:08
Try telling my Dwarf Lord from the older Army Book that KB is a gimmick. I hate to think how many times he's been killed by the Champion of my Dark Elves opponents Executioners Regiment by a Killing Blow :mad:

I'll agree it tends to be of limited value against most RnF units though (unless we're talking about S3 getting KB on a 2+AS [or better] RnF model, that is always nice to see - when I'm not on the recieving end :p).



Back on topic: I'll go with most other views on this - medium cav exists, but it doesn't really do anything special in WHFB.

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-03-2007, 13:28
My mistake on the High Elves - it is, of course, the barding that is mandatory and the heavy armour and shield that are optional. The point saving adds up to 20 points per unit, with a further 35 points saved by skimping on the command group. I've never done it myself, but I can see the value in having a unit of five naked helms for harrassment if you're going to field a cavalry force.

I ran a HE army for some games back in 6th, and there I had 2 or 3(forgot) 5 man silverhelm units purely for support. No command group, but with full armour. Even for harassement units, the armour is really nice. Standing up to chariot charges and the like really helps a support unit.
I would have liked to see the barding being optional, as at least that way there were some valid choice in how to arm them. Right now the only reason to do it is if your seriously short on points.

But the real problem is that there is very little reason to use medium cavalry if you have other options. They are occasionally faster, but not more manouverable than there heavy counter parts, and they are no way near the manouverability of light cavalry. They also tend to struggle almost as much in combat as light cavalry do.

I don't see a role thats best filled with medium cavalry as oppose to heavy or light.

Parka boy
29-03-2007, 13:56
DoW Medium Cav rocks! Well all of its cavalry rocks really as it has the best choice of cavalry in the game as well as some of the best cost units, one being its medium cavalry at only 95pts.

Steel_Legion
29-03-2007, 16:05
I may have to invest in the DoW "Heavy Cav" as they seem best suited, though I would really prefere them without the shield, as demi-lancers didnt use them, just heavy armour (or half armour, whatever the correct name is) and a shorter lance on a horse, being very mobile due to being light. Unfortunatly DoW light cav cannot get Light armour so I can't get accurate demi lancers

kyussinchains
29-03-2007, 17:07
I think it's pretty binary on this front, heavy cavalry is anything hard hitting and relatively survivable, orc boar boys, empire knights, bret knights, chaos knights, saurus cavalry, dragon princes etc

light cavalry is basically anything that doesnt do both of the above, most commonly being less survivable as we all know centigors are very hard hitting, as are marauder horsemen with flails, but both are still light cavalry.

I dont think medium cavalry exists, there is not enough consistent middle ground between heavy and light for them to occupy.

my point is that if it aint heavy, its light!

Cragspyder
29-03-2007, 17:11
As far as Tomb Kings "Heavy" Horsemen go, I have used them to good effect several times in my games.

Even though they are not very hitty and rather fragile when it comes down to it, the fact that they are cheap(er), cause fear, all have US2, and can fairly easier get an important flank charge off (with Incantation of Urgency), has made them very effective in the games I have played.

They have not yet failed to break an opposing infantry block they have charged in the flank (this is with a unit of 8 at 1000 point level games). This was against Orcs and Black Orcs, not necessarily the hardest infantry (Dwarves and Chaos), but certainly not the weakest either.

However, this is mostly due to the fact that they cause fear. I doubt that other medium cavalry units would have as much success. However, other medium cavalry is probably able to hit a bit harder then my Heavy Horsemen (WS 2, STR 4 on the charge), but I don't think they would be nearly as effective.

I would think medium cavalry (outside of Tomb Kings) would be best used in minimun-sized units (5 models usually) that are destined to flank charge blocks of infantry (or if you can get a flank charge on a unit of cavalry, it is even better; flank charges on cavalry are better then rear charges IMO because the enemy will get one, maybe two models attacking back even if you deal no wounds, plus you avoid characters.).

Vattendroppe
29-03-2007, 17:12
I think it's pretty binary on this front, heavy cavalry is anything hard hitting and relatively survivable, orc boar boys, empire knights, bret knights, chaos knights, saurus cavalry, dragon princes etc

light cavalry is basically anything that doesnt do both of the above, most commonly being less survivable as we all know centigors are very hard hitting, as are marauder horsemen with flails, but both are still light cavalry.

I dont think medium cavalry exists, there is not enough consistent middle ground between heavy and light for them to occupy.

my point is that if it aint heavy, its light!

But I think his question were more of the nature "Are there any cav with armoursave 3+ or 4+?", since that were his defenition of medium cav. And with his defenition to medium cav, there certainly are medium cav. (If cavalry is leavy, heavy, light, medium, crap or too good is pretty subjective...)

Steel_Legion
29-03-2007, 17:33
Well I would define medium as not the hard hitting front liners or the flankers, but the counter chargers or mopping up crew, but thats just me, and by the looks of things, it doesnt really exist :( I might just use DoW heavy cav without shields for modelling purpose, surely no one would mind that?

Onisuzume
29-03-2007, 19:39
I think it's pretty binary on this front, heavy cavalry is anything hard hitting and relatively survivable, orc boar boys, empire knights, bret knights, chaos knights, saurus cavalry, dragon princes etc
Afaik; ork boar boyz and saurus cavalry are medium cavalry.
Not too sure about the others.
The armour save on them ain't good enough to be real heavy cavalry, while not light enough to be light cavalry. (or at least that's for the saurus cavalry.)

Imo; 5+ and 6+ armour saves would be light, 3+ and 4+ would be medium, and 2+ or better would be heavy.

But I think his question were more of the nature "Are there any cav with armoursave 3+ or 4+?", since that were his defenition of medium cav. And with his defenition to medium cav, there certainly are medium cav. (If cavalry is leavy, heavy, light, medium, crap or too good is pretty subjective...)
Afaik, there is, not counting dogs of war, only 3-4 units that fit that discription.
Ork Boar Boyz, Saurus Cavalry, Tomb Kings Heavy Horsemen, and Silver Helms. (DoW "heavy" cavalry starts with a 4+ save which can be upgraded to 2+)

kyussinchains
29-03-2007, 19:45
I was saying that there are basically two roles for cavalry

fast shock troops capable of dealing lots of damage and surviving a good deal of punishment (heavy cavalry)

even faster cavalry for charge baiting, flanking and riding down fleeing troops (amongst other things)

I think my definition is somewhat different than the OP, however the lines are very blurred, orc boar boys only have a 3+ save, yet nobody would say they arent heavy cavalry, centigors on the other hand can dish out as many attacks as chosen knights at the same strength, yet they arent heavy cavalry.

if it only depends on armour save, I suppose we should have a definition for all 6 different armour saves? ;)

Tarian
29-03-2007, 20:00
Yeah, but then we'd have 1+ Super Heavy, 2+ Heavy, 3+ Kinda Heavy, 4+ Medium, 5+ Light, 6+ Really light

Onisuzume
29-03-2007, 20:01
if it only depends on armour save, I suppose we should have a definition for all 6 different armour saves? ;)
Lets see...

Light Light, Heavy Light, Light Medium, Heavy Medium, Light Heavy, Heavy Heavy. :p

And imo; saurus cavalry are about the only real medium cavalry due to the cold one's movement of 7, making it lag behind just about every other cavalry unit in the game. And their low initiative ofcourse.

kyussinchains
29-03-2007, 20:05
I was merely pointing out the pointlessness of ranking cavalry based on armour save!! ;)

Multifarious
29-03-2007, 20:24
Does anyone actually use Wolfrider medium Cav? I'm starting (very slowly) to make an orc/goblin army and wondering whether or not to use some medium cav (along with other units as fast cav). I was thinking that a Goblin Big Boss with Wollapas along with a few ranks of goblin wolfriders wouldn't actually be too bad on the charge (1 strength 4 1 strength 3 each on the charge along with a 4+ save while maintaining a charge of 18 inches, especially with a big boss included). You could also potentially rope in a chariot. Plus you have to admit it would look amusing.

lilljonas
29-03-2007, 20:34
Does anyone actually use Wolfrider medium Cav?

Not that many ordinary O&G armies, I think, but I've seen them in several all-cavalry O&G army lists since it's the cheapest way to get ranked troops that have a chance of actually defeating someone.

Brother Ranz
29-03-2007, 21:38
We Bretts consider Empire Knights to be "Medium Cav." :Tee-Hee:

Chiron
29-03-2007, 22:06
yes, curse that 1+ save and lower points cost

Steel_Legion
29-03-2007, 22:22
(DoW "heavy" cavalry starts with a 4+ save which can be upgraded to 2+)

How? Heavy armour plus horse plus shield = 3+

English 2000
30-03-2007, 04:18
Black Knights really isn't that impressive in combat, killing blow is more of a gimmick than a real weapon.

Black Knights are one of the BEST heavy cav units in the game if you give them the banner of the barrows.

S6 on the charge w/killing blow
2+ save
T4
Always Hit on 3+ with the banner

My undead almost never take to the field without them

English 2000
30-03-2007, 04:19
Brettonian Mounted Yeomen with light armour are medium cav - however they really don't serve much purpose in the army as a mediim cav unit.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
30-03-2007, 08:33
Does anyone actually use Wolfrider medium Cav? I'm starting (very slowly) to make an orc/goblin army and wondering whether or not to use some medium cav (along with other units as fast cav). I was thinking that a Goblin Big Boss with Wollapas along with a few ranks of goblin wolfriders wouldn't actually be too bad on the charge (1 strength 4 1 strength 3 each on the charge along with a 4+ save while maintaining a charge of 18 inches, especially with a big boss included). You could also potentially rope in a chariot. Plus you have to admit it would look amusing.

I was used to take 2 such units of 15 with big boss in my all goblin army, now with goblins more expensive I don't use them anymore. I field an almost entirly footslogging horde.

Greetz
G

Onisuzume
30-03-2007, 17:59
How? Heavy armour plus horse plus shield = 3+
Barding remember.
And I forgot that the shield was standard, not an upgrade. >_>

And imo; Saurus Cavalry are the one true medium cavalry in the game.
No amazing armour save, no amazing speed, stupidity, though a fair number of high strength attacks on the charge. (S5 ain't too bad I guess...)

Simon23
31-03-2007, 15:11
How come no ones mentioned wild riders? :confused:

Vattendroppe
31-03-2007, 17:58
How come no ones mentioned wild riders? :confused:

Their armour save is only 5+, he asked for cav 3+ or 4+...

lilljonas
31-03-2007, 18:14
Yeah, Wild Riders are Fast Cavalry. Medium Cavalry would be cavalry that's heavy enough to lose the main benefits of Fast Cavalry (the free reforms), but not heavy enough to be able to smash units to pieces with lances and heavy armour. It's a middle of the road function that has worked historically, for example to chase away enemy light cavalry and then harass flanks, but seems to be less available in WHFB.