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dodicula
29-03-2007, 06:12
According to this article, WHFB sales trail both warmachine and hordes!

http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/10315.html

starlight
29-03-2007, 06:37
Actually, the title would be: We're #1 and #4.:p

No real surprise. GW doesn't promote well, they don't sell well.:p

Ravenous
29-03-2007, 06:38
ICv2 Top Five CCGs
1.Yu-Gi-Oh!
2. Magic: The Gathering
3. Pokemon
4. Naruto
5. World of Warcraft

Thats surprising, I didnt know Yu-gi-oh and pokemon were even made still as thier fad has worn off, dont worry Japan will pump more crap into the media soon.


ICv2 Top Five CMGs
1. Star Wars CMG
2. Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures
3. HeroClix
4. HorrorClix
5. DreamBlade

Being at the top of this list isnt saying much. Where are all these starwars geeks? Wait nevermind their parents basement writing their fanfic. The game is dead as hell here, the last time I saw someone play was 2 years ago.


ICv2 Top Five Non-collectable Miniature Games
1. Warhammer 40,000
2. WarMachine
3. Hordes
4. Warhammer Fantasy Battles
5. Confrontation

4th Techically, and dont worry Warmachine wont last. Much like its predacessors (mech warrior and the like) it will get big then flop. Seen it a dozen times. And what the hell is Hordes and confrontation? I know Heroscape is starting to get big around this parts. That and I dont think this list is worldwide, Fancy(fantasy) is MASSIVE in europe.


ICv2 Top Five Board, Card, and Family Games
1. Settlers of Catan
2. Ticket to Ride
3. Carcassonne
4. World of Warcraft
5. Blokus

BLOKUS!!!! Sorry I love that game.


ICv2 Top Five RPGs
1. Dungeons & Dragons
2. World of Darkness
3. Exalted
4. Mutants & Masterminds
5. BESM

Thats about right, although I prefer world of darkness you cant compete with the history of D&D

yeancientone
29-03-2007, 06:58
I'm relieved to see we're in the top five, with 40k at number one.

scarletsquig
29-03-2007, 07:10
I'd be more interested in seeing what the longer lists available in the magazine are, rather than the relatively obvious top 5.

Gaebriel
29-03-2007, 07:12
Are these US ratings or worldwide?

Bugstomper
29-03-2007, 07:30
having recently moved house i've been going to games night at my local gw's (winchester and southampton) as my old gaming club is too far for me to be arsed to travel to regularly, i've been very surprised to see that it's 99% 40k with only bloodbowl being the other game i've seen played, i've not seen a single warhammer game being played which was surprising as my club played warhammer more than anything else and most of the people i've known in the hobby have played warhammer more than anything else over the years.

leonmallett
29-03-2007, 08:38
Reassuring to see WH40K at number 1.

Slightly serious/slightly tongue in cheek - do you think the lack of guns/technology type stuff prevalent in 40K and Warmachine hurts WFB? Or is it a rule system thing? I think there are some really cool miniatures and by default quality matches 40K in terms of minis, so what is the answer?

Ozorik
29-03-2007, 08:52
I wonder what the actual numbers are behind this survey?

ICv2 seems very focused on America so it seems likely that the data used is American and as such probably not very represntative of the global market as GW has a much lower presence there as in Europe.

ashc
29-03-2007, 08:56
Actually the list for miniatures gaming looks about right (although I would have said Hordes and Warmachine should have been classed together, which would move everyone up a place); where has this information bene collected from though?

I think its a good reflection on the market around me, except WM/Hordes is now played far more than 40k; I have been considering for a while whether fantasy is slipping in the popularity stakes.

Ash

Ohman
29-03-2007, 10:29
Are these US ratings or worldwide?

I would say they are for the US alone, ICv2 is a US magazine. The numbers are likley to be different here in Europe. I would think Confrontation is bigger here while Hordes and Warmachine sell less here than in the US. I would also think that WHFB sells better here.

The biggest shock for me is BESM's fifth place on the RPG list! How the hell did that happen? I know the popularity of RPGs has dropped but if a game like that is the fifth best selling than the worlf of RPGs must have really changed since my days.

Anyone have access to the whole article?

A neutral shade of black.
29-03-2007, 13:49
4th Techically, and dont worry Warmachine wont last. Much like its predacessors (mech warrior and the like) it will get big then flop. Seen it a dozen times. And what the hell is Hordes and confrontation? I know Heroscape is starting to get big around this parts. That and I dont think this list is worldwide, Fancy(fantasy) is MASSIVE in europe.

That's funny. That was a good joke. No, really.

Osbad
29-03-2007, 14:34
Due to availability issues alone then WM/Hordes and WFB ratings are likely to shift in the UK in comparison to the US. In continental Europe Confrontation and AT-43 are likely to have a stronger showing due to the same rational. Expect Rackham's offerings to rise in popularity in the US with the release of v4 of Confrontation later this year, and more importantly with the opening of a warehouse in Chicago to facilitate distribution in the US (where demand for AT-43 has outstripped supply, apparently).

But without any trend analysis these "rankings" are pretty meaningless! Are they the returns from major wholesalers, are they a random survey of Indie stores (GW's own stores figures will not be included I can guarantee)?

Likely these are a fairly unrepresentative sample, rather than full industry-wide stats. Which doesn't make them wrong, just lmited in reliability and applicability. Not much better than anecdootal really.

Hydian
29-03-2007, 15:07
4th Techically, and dont worry Warmachine wont last. Much like its predacessors (mech warrior and the like) it will get big then flop.

Mechwarrior was an RPG. If you mean Battletech, it "flopped" after 10+ years only because it's publisher, FASA, was shut down by Hasbro after buying it. The game, however, is still alive and well if no longer a blockbuster. The original is currently being published under license by Fanpro while a clix version is being done by Wizkids.


But without any trend analysis these "rankings" are pretty meaningless! Are they the returns from major wholesalers, are they a random survey of Indie stores (GW's own stores figures will not be included I can guarantee)?

The publisher is a retailer industry news source. I'd guess that the full article in the magazine has details about how they came up with those figures.

A neutral shade of black.
29-03-2007, 15:18
Mechwarrior was an RPG. If you mean Battletech, it "flopped" after 10+ years only because it's publisher, FASA, was shut down by Hasbro after buying it. The game, however, is still alive and well if no longer a blockbuster. The original is currently being published under license by Fanpro while a clix version is being done by Wizkids.

And either way, it has absolutely nothing to do with Warmachine.

machine_recovered_meat
29-03-2007, 15:21
I wonder what the actual numbers are behind this survey?

It'd be very interesting to see the actual numbers, where they came from and I'll wager that there's a massive sales gap between Magic and Pokemon too.

YuGiOh does seem to have a really really incredibly diverse fanbase though, rather than being 'a gamer thing', generalisation though that is.

I also suspect the RPG sales will be consistently lower than the other categories, as it's a very small industry.

Templar Ben
29-03-2007, 16:25
It'd be very interesting to see the actual numbers, where they came from and I'll wager that there's a massive sales gap between Magic and Pokemon too.

YuGiOh does seem to have a really really incredibly diverse fanbase though, rather than being 'a gamer thing', generalisation though that is.

I also suspect the RPG sales will be consistently lower than the other categories, as it's a very small industry.

D&D's sales were down 35%.

machine_recovered_meat
29-03-2007, 18:11
D&D's sales were down 35%.
Unfortunately, that's entirely nebulous.

35% from what?
Of what sales?
Sales through bookshops or units shifted by distributors?
Internet based sales?
Sales in North America or worldwide?

Without context it's just a number.

Templar Ben
29-03-2007, 18:42
Revenue from sales, worldwide.

Not sure why so much concern about if the sales were in bookstores or online.


Revenue from sales, worldwide.

Not sure why so much concern about if the sales were in bookstores or online.

Edit: I just reread that. Are you wanting year by year revenue on CCG vs Minis vs RPG?

BodhiTree
29-03-2007, 18:53
At my local Indy store 40k and Fantasy are slowly being downsized, Fantasy far more than 40k. WarMachine, Hordes, Confrontation and Flames of War are each selling better than 40k in comparison of product facing to profit. WM/Hordes combined has just as much presence as the GW products there.

machine_recovered_meat
29-03-2007, 18:59
TemplarBen:
No, no - was just curious where the numbers came from, and the context of them as such, in terms of keeping one eye loosely on the state of things as rpgs are a truly great thing, but i don't buy magazines of any type, and rarely even skim them these days, so I'm somewhat out of touch with the general state of things. And I'd rather not be. Since someone kindly stuck that list up, I'm more au fait with it than I was when I got up this morning :)

I'm not at all concerned about the difference in point of sale - it was just an example that sales figures can be based from [depending of course on the source and scope of the numbers]. There are lies, damn lies and statisitics and so on.

Now define 'revenue' ;)

eengaming
29-03-2007, 21:31
"4th Techically, and dont worry Warmachine wont last. Much like its predacessors (mech warrior and the like) it will get big then flop. Seen it a dozen times. And what the hell is Hordes and confrontation? I know Heroscape is starting to get big around this parts. That and I dont think this list is worldwide, Fancy(fantasy) is MASSIVE in europe."

Quoted for its complete insanity.

Not trying to be a jerk, but if you think WM/Hordes are going anywhere anytime soon... don't count on it. The fact is they are growing and by using a business model for releases that is far superior to GW's (releasing new products for all armies every month) and by creating compelling armies and fluff for all factions (ie. no marine mania) don't be suprised if they eventually are number 1 and 2.

There are many great games and companies that aren't on that list. I wish LoTR would have made it as I really like the game. Infinity, my current favorite sci fi game also did not make the list... rats!

BodhiTree
29-03-2007, 21:36
Infinity, my current favorite sci fi game also did not make the list... rats! I think that is only a matter of time.

NakedFisherman
29-03-2007, 21:49
A survey of undisclosed names of retailers, ditributors, and publishers...what?

Why bother with the survey? It's meaningless.

Templar Ben
29-03-2007, 22:51
Not trying to be a jerk, but if you think WM/Hordes are going anywhere anytime soon... don't count on it. The fact is they are growing and by using a business model for releases that is far superior to GW's (releasing new products for all armies every month) and by creating compelling armies and fluff for all factions (ie. no marine mania) don't be suprised if they eventually are number 1 and 2.

There are many great games and companies that aren't on that list. I wish LoTR would have made it as I really like the game. Infinity, my current favorite sci fi game also did not make the list... rats!

So many have a hard time transitioning from small fish to bigger fish.


D) Privateer Press is about to experience the agony & the ecstasy of the hockey stick curve. They are the only one-eye’d man in hobby gaming that is going to generate sales growth from the acquisition of new players who will be buying and using their products as intended: as gaming components. Replicating the growth seen by TSR and WotC will be hard, but possible. Privateer is eating into Games Workshop’s US sales, and its deals in Europe are providing real competition on the Continent as well. They are delivering a compelling alternative to GW’s aging and internally compromised brands to a customer base that feels abused and neglected. By the end of the year, Privateer Press’ successes will make it a likely takeover target, as Matt Wilson and his team try to navigate the incredibly challenging shift from startup to successful sustained growth company while remaining independent.

According to Ryan Dancy.

He created d20 so he may know something of the realities facing PP. We will see.

Mikhaila
30-03-2007, 00:28
I wonder what the actual numbers are behind this survey?

ICv2 seems very focused on America so it seems likely that the data used is American and as such probably not very represntative of the global market as GW has a much lower presence there as in Europe.


There aren't really numbers in the survey. It was interviews, or surveys, and not of a large sample size. About as reliable as putting up a poll here on warseer for what peoples favorite games are. You get 20 peoples opinions, but not necessarily any correlation with the rest of the world. Might match up, might not.

It doesn't reflect but a small portion of US retailers, who filled out a survey.
It doesn't reflect total sales at all.
It certainly doesn't take in anything outside of the US.
It wasn't weighted by sales, more by "what's your best selling game".
It doesn't take into account any numbers from GW's stores, or mailorder.

Several magazines do surveys like this every year. No hard numbers, no real try at good data, just enough to do an article. I've seen this survey and others like it pop up multiple times over the years. As far as any accuracy, or hard numbers, they don't have much legitimacy.

But feel free to take it serious, and start a 10 page gripe fest feeling they give proof to something.

Mikhaila
30-03-2007, 00:30
So many have a hard time transitioning from small fish to bigger fish.



According to Ryan Dancy.

He created d20 so he may know something of the realities facing PP. We will see.

Really? Hmm, I though that was Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax.

starlight
30-03-2007, 00:38
But feel free to take it serious, and start a 10 page gripe fest feeling they give proof to something.

<knows who to blame ten pages later:p>

After what I saw inside GW, that quote from Ryan Dancy (or whoever) rings frighteningly true. Far too many people (frighteningly high up people, who should know better) at GW have their heads in the sand when it comes to GW's true place in the world. GW may be a big fish, but they're in a very, very small pond overall and if they want to check out next door, the sharks aren't too friendly. GW has had an incredible opportunity with the pot o' money derived from LotR. It remains to be seen whether or not they've spent their time and money well.

I have my concerns.:eyebrows:

Templar Ben
30-03-2007, 01:16
Really? Hmm, I though that was Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax.

Nope. They created D&D back in the 1970's. He created the d20 system which was used for 3rd edition.

Here is some talk about Ryan Dancy. http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2114

Here is a brief bio

Bio:
•Cofounded ISOMEDIA (ISP/Digital Media Services)
•Cocreated Legend of the Five Rings
•Cofounded Five Rings Publishing Group
•Brokered TSR acquisition by Wizards of the Coast, and FRPG sale
•Produced 7 Collectible Card Games for Wizards of the Coast
•VP of Tabletop RPGs / Dungeons & Dragons Brand Manager / Responsible for 3rd Edition
•Wrote the Open Gaming License and created the D20 System Trademark License
•Founded OrganizedPlay Corporation
•Founded The Core Market, LLC

eengaming
30-03-2007, 03:31
Mikhaila, why so bitter? I do not think anybody is really griping here. The forum is here to discuss gaming. Even if the data is not accurate (I have no idea to be honest) it seems like there are more games than ever seriously competing for a market share in the game industry. Is that not worth discussing even among us (the unwashed internet masses)? :D

Mikhaila
30-03-2007, 03:51
Mikhaila, why so bitter? I do not think anybody is really griping here. The forum is here to discuss gaming. Even if the data is not accurate (I have no idea to be honest) it seems like there are more games than ever seriously competing for a market share in the game industry. Is that not worth discussing even among us (the unwashed internet masses)? :D

Well, I am BITTER! Damn it!!:D It's all I have to keep me warm at night, don't take it away from me

But it's mainly because I went to college for 7 years of statistical theory, a lot of it specifically geared to sampling and handling data, and yet somehow I ended up in the game industry, where the only 'surveys' I've seen for 20 years make me tear my hair out.):rolleyes: I did something bad in a past life, I think.

This is just an old gripe of mine. After you've seen countless numbers of poorly written surveys, that don't really gather much data, and then throw out opinions, and those opinions get used to make decisions. But it's how decisions get made somehow. I cringe whenever I see these numberless wonders based on "Industry interveiws". ICV2 is usually pretty good about reporting the news, and I like the publication.

Mikhaila
30-03-2007, 04:05
•Wrote the Open Gaming License and created the D20 System Trademark License

The D20 system was derivitive of work going back through 20 years of D&D, Ad&D, and 2nd Edition D&d. It was a nice reworking of a system, but I'd hardly say that Mr. Dancy wrote it. He was in charge of lots of people working on the revision of the earlier system.

I used the link, it seemed to have one swine obsess individual arguing with everyone else, and those people didn't seem to be fans of Mr. Dancy.

I knew quite a bit about Ryan before, he does know a lot, he just doesn't know as much as he thinks he does, and I don't take him to be quite the expert that some people, Mr. Dancy included, make him out to be.

eengaming
30-03-2007, 05:47
Well then, I'll take your word on the statistics. So would you agree that some of these youg companies are poised to take a bite of the GW market. What would be a better way of finding out (better surveying method)?

Ravenous
30-03-2007, 07:46
Quoted for its complete insanity.


Sorry I just think Warmachine is the next big fad its nothing special. It might not drop out of the sky but it wont last. I rank it up there with Chuck Norris and Dragon Ball Z.

I just cant take something seriously when you tell me your warcaster is using warjacks to wage war upon me in a game called warmachine with foolish looking models.

Tried it, didnt care for it, but if people like it then power to them.

And it is appreciated that you made a constructive post rather then this:


That's funny. That was a good joke. No, really.

clovis
30-03-2007, 08:24
This is my first post on the forum, but i have been reading on this forum for the last 3 years. I started to play rogue trader in the the late 80's and since then was a fanatic. I agree with what Ravenous said, i like to try from time to time new things, so i've tried Warmachine also!The figurines looks too "Manga" for me or worse like an older version of Pokemon! The universe, the background is also very limited! The likes of Rackam, privateer press, reminds me of a buble that could busrt( does anyone remenber a game calle "Wrazone"!, maybe i'm wrong!I don't say GW is better, i just prefer their figurines and Games. So "voila" that was my opinion.

Oh by the way do anyone knows how these two companies are doing financialy?Would be interested to know as many "Anti GW" claim they are the next Giant of the industry!

Reflex
30-03-2007, 08:55
i am glad to see 40k and fantasy in the top 5... with 40k its a no brianer that its NO. 1... i mean come on.. how many people get into 40k first then get into fantasy and other wargames...

i do wonder where flames of war is ranked.. that seems to be getting big these days... especailly considering when they changed there rule book they gave out alot of free rulebooks.

i would like to see necromunder have a comeback... i wonder where its ranked? 15th?? are there even that many wargames?

Osbad
30-03-2007, 09:11
The likes of Rackam, privateer press, reminds me of a buble that could busrt( does anyone remenber a game calle "Wrazone"!, maybe i'm wrong!I don't say GW is better, i just prefer their figurines and Games. So "voila" that was my opinion.

Oh by the way do anyone knows how these two companies are doing financialy?Would be interested to know as many "Anti GW" claim they are the next Giant of the industry!

Privateer Press is a privately owned company so they do not publish their accounts, unlike Rackham and GW who are publically quoted on the French and UK stock exchanges respectively. However, there is every evidence from activity all over the place that the game is taking off. Purely anecdotal. Whether it is a "bubble that bursts" or is a long-term stayer of course is a moot point as things stand. I suspect that it will last because there are plenty of dedicated players and an established tournament system - so provided that they don't overeach themselves, the future looks rosy.

Warzone is still in release: You can get it through Prince August I think.

There is evidence that Rackham has had some recent difficulty in the past year - the AT-43 distribution had demand outsrip supply and so they have opened up a new warehouse in the US to help out there - clearly not the tactics of a shrinking company, also Confrontation (which has run into some difficulties in some areas) is being revised in the autumn to version 4.

There are no certain futures in a tricky and fickle market, but PP and Rackham seem as sound as anyone these days. There seem to be many "burst bubbles" still out there, which have been bought up and still have trickle releases - Grenadier's stuff springs instantly to mind for instance. Companies don't have to topple GW to be a financial success, and similarly being "king of the heap" doesn't make you a success in itself... The bigger they are the harder they fall...

And by the way, while I have pointed out many problems with GW and dislike much of their business plan I am *not* "anti-GW", but like everyone else there are things I like about what they do (LotR Dwarves ...mmmmmm!) and things I don't like (greedy sods). I speak as I find. This ridiculous tribalism between those that are supposedly "pro GW" and "anti GW" has to stop: it is just childish nonsence. Those perpetrating it should just GROW UP!

ashc
30-03-2007, 09:20
And by the way, while I have pointed out many problems with GW and dislike much of their business plan I am *not* "anti-GW", but like everyone else there are things I like about what they do (LotR Dwarves ...mmmmmm!) and things I don't like (greedy sods). I speak as I find. This ridiculous tribalism between those that are supposedly "pro GW" and "anti GW" has to stop: it is just childish nonsence. Those perpetrating it should just GROW UP!

Good old Osbad, the neutral voice of reason; Im in exactly the same camp as you mate.

Warmachine/Hordes has a massive uprising in popularity at the moment; no one i know wants to play any of the GW core games if they can play WM instead. Their IP is also impressive; it was all an rpg before a wargame, and was very impressed when i began an rpg game a few months back.

Ash

P.S. on the subject of WM, I was quite against it at first, as it looked on the out like a powergamey wargame that revolved around you building the best combo force and ploughing your opponent with little to no background/thought; and how wrong i was when i explored the game (i like Hordes more, but hats off to PP i say).

Osbad
30-03-2007, 09:42
Heh. I suppose, in the interests of balance I should explain also that my impressions of WM and Hordes are mixed too.

1/ I enjoy the game - I like the mechanics: tokens, cards etc. all work nicely for me, bnut I appreciate others find them distracting. This for me is the clincher though. I find it great fun to play, so I will compromise to do so. I find 40k and WFB less fun to play, so I am less prepared to compromise with those games).

2/ Some of the WM models really appeal, as does the aesthetic of the whole crazy steampunk thing. I get the fluff! On the other hand, I dislike many sculpts (the whole cricket bat sword motif loses me, and many of the Hordes models I really, relaly dislike. C'est la vie - I can say the same for pretty much any major manufacturer)

3/ Price. PP's approach to rules (free download for the intro version, cheap intro boxed sets, cheap and high quality main rulebook) I think works a treat. The gouging they indulge in on other "optional" expansion models I am less impressed with (I recently bought two Iron Fang Pikemen infantry models for £10.99 the pair - which seems somewhat excessive), but on the other hand, you don't need as large armies as GW's offerings, so I can still afford to have a large enough force to have fun and variety with without compromising on my preference for metal models.

So a mixed bag. I don't find PP perfect by any means, but for reasons of personal preference I currently prefer the mix of enjoyment and compromise that is on offer from WM than I do to 40k or WFB. On the other hand I also really like GW's LotR, and only with the most recent price rises have I found myself having to curtail expanding my armies. Still love the game, but don't buy many models any more.

There are no simple lines here. While for many, for emotional reasons they find themselves as "GW haterz" or "GW fanbois", I think if anyone in either camp examines their motivation, they will find some purely irrational or emotive element for their hatred or lurv...

clovis
30-03-2007, 10:17
Osbad,

I agree with what you've i might have been a bit emotional!It's just i have known GW for so long so it's hard to accept critic. In a way i think competition is good for the players and good for GW. Just hope they react fast enough to solve the problems they have( game system). But as the over two bigs guys grow they will face the same problems as GW has now!or not! time will tale!But i think they feed on GW, so they need GW veteran player base to recruit new players. So if GW falls they'd better grow fast overwise they will have serious trouble. So one could say that greedy GW introduce new young players to the hobbyand when they grow up some of them after 5 or 10 years of playing the same game might try another game. Who knows maybe some old players of PP or Rackam might go to GW after a while?( but that's too early to say as they are new and very popular). When you're on the podium many wants to see you fall

machine_recovered_meat
30-03-2007, 11:20
Nope. They created D&D back in the 1970's. He created the d20 system which was used for 3rd edition.
Oh no he didn't :p

Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook [legend] and Skip Williams [legend] pretty much created 3rd Ed D&D.
Whilst Dancy may have confounded the company that held the rights to L5R, he certainly didn't co create L5R either.

Zzarchov
30-03-2007, 11:40
Sorry I just think Warmachine is the next big fad its nothing special. It might not drop out of the sky but it wont last. I rank it up there with Chuck Norris and Dragon Ball Z.

I just cant take something seriously when you tell me your warcaster is using warjacks to wage war upon me in a game called warmachine with foolish looking models.

Tried it, didnt care for it, but if people like it then power to them.

And it is appreciated that you made a constructive post rather then this:

Sorry, not to get involved, and you could be right and it could be a flop yadda yadda..

But have you ever tried explain W40k to a non gamer? And all their fun terms and equally foolish looking models (and they are to people who don't play... "why do you have so many toys? aren't you like an adult?")

Even to other miniature gamers the "Heroic scale" makes many ask "Did you get a bunch of miscasts?"

(I still play and enjoy 40k)

Durandal
30-03-2007, 11:47
Thats surprising, I didnt know Yu-gi-oh and pokemon were even made still as thier fad has worn off, dont worry Japan will pump more crap into the media soon.

Yu-gi-oh and Pokeman are sold in a lot of high street shops. What surprises me, pleasantly, is that Magic is second above Pokeman. Magic isn't sold in high street shops in the UK and its profile is much lower. It does have a devoted base though.

edit: ah, I just realised that these are US figures. I wonder if Magic outsells Pokeman in the UK. I think Magic has a higher profile in the US(?)

Osbad
30-03-2007, 11:48
In many circles, 40k is known as "kiddie-kay" for various reasons.

Lets face it, all Sci-fi games and models may seem silly to those more "grounded in reality."

Recently my boss popped by my door and we had a conversation about a book he'd just read. It was the first ever piece of science-fiction he'd ever read ( can't remember the name, but Phili K DIck was the author) and he just thought it was bizzarre. To many out there anything as divorced from "reality" as sci-fi (or heaven forfend, Fantasy) is considered "childish" for some reason.

However, strangely, the same people tend to think that 22 men dressing up in short pants on a Saturday afternoon, chasing a ball around a field with 50,000 people shouting at them is entirely rational! *raises eyebrows*.

Against that context there really is no sense in the argument that "my set of toy soldiers is less childish than your set..." is there?!

Ravenous
30-03-2007, 12:14
Sorry, not to get involved, and you could be right and it could be a flop yadda yadda..

But have you ever tried explain W40k to a non gamer? And all their fun terms and equally foolish looking models (and they are to people who don't play... "why do you have so many toys? aren't you like an adult?")

Even to other miniature gamers the "Heroic scale" makes many ask "Did you get a bunch of miscasts?"

(I still play and enjoy 40k)

True

Although for the most part I find people can follow 40k easier then trying to explain steam punk, iron kingdoms, and the engineer magicians to people.

Mind you thats most people, there is still some that give me the deer in the head lights look when I tell them each model has its own stat line.

machine_recovered_meat
30-03-2007, 12:30
Yu-gi-oh and Pokeman are sold in a lot of high street shops. What surprises me, pleasantly, is that Magic is second above Pokeman. Magic isn't sold in high street shops in the UK and its profile is much lower. It does have a devoted base though.

edit: ah, I just realised that these are US figures. I wonder if Magic outsells Pokeman in the UK. I think Magic has a higher profile in the US(?)

There are definitely more Magic Pro Tour events in the US than anywhere else on earth. Not sure how magic does here though, but it's quite popular for 'a not computer' game. Gencons in blighty have had more Magic players than players of anything else for a long time.

You can get Magic in Tesco though, in some of the larger stores, along with YuGiOh.

Templar Ben
30-03-2007, 12:56
Oh no he didn't :p

Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook [legend] and Skip Williams [legend] pretty much created 3rd Ed D&D.
Whilst Dancy may have confounded the company that held the rights to L5R, he certainly didn't co create L5R either.

Don't conflate d20 and 3rd edition. He came up with the system of allowing others to grow the game for WotC. I was pointing out his experience in the business end, that is all. Now I don't know if he is lying about cocreating Five Rings but your point above was that he helped create the company that contained the brand.

That is all I was saying. This individual was involved in business decisions and given most threads here are about how GW is or is not a good business, I felt it was germane.

machine_recovered_meat
30-03-2007, 13:17
Don't conflate d20 and 3rd edition.

3rd Ed D&D IS D20 system :)


In the brief bio that you posted,
you wrote/quoted from wherever:

"•Cocreated Legend of the Five Rings"
Which implies that he cocreated L5R, the card game, the rpg and the gameworld. Not, that he cofounded a company which licenced IP created by one of it's staff writes to Alderac Entertainment, who created & published the L5R game systems :) [which are also damn good to boot;) ]

Durandal
30-03-2007, 13:37
There are definitely more Magic Pro Tour events in the US than anywhere else on earth. Not sure how magic does here though, but it's quite popular for 'a not computer' game. Gencons in blighty have had more Magic players than players of anything else for a long time.

You can get Magic in Tesco though, in some of the larger stores, along with YuGiOh.


I didn't know you could get Magic in Tescos! I think I'll continue to buy cards from my local gaming shop though.

I've seen Yu-gi-oh in all kinds of places from WH Smiths and Borders to a very small local toy shop.

edit: that's not actually 'Witchunter Smiths' btw ;)

Templar Ben
30-03-2007, 13:56
3rd Ed D&D IS D20 system :)


In the brief bio that you posted,
you wrote/quoted from wherever:

"•Cocreated Legend of the Five Rings"
Which implies that he cocreated L5R, the card game, the rpg and the gameworld. Not, that he cofounded a company which licenced IP created by one of it's staff writes to Alderac Entertainment, who created & published the L5R game systems :) [which are also damn good to boot;) ]

Actually there is a distinction but we can discuss that in PM, Dancy was the Brand Manager at the time.

I agree I posted the bio he wrote and presumed it to be accurate. I was also pointing out that your statement about him not doing the creative work but instead being in charge of a company responsible shows that he knows the business side of the industry which is what the comments posted were driven by.

eengaming
30-03-2007, 17:10
I will say this, I would not be suprised if, as PP or Rackham , as they grow begin to make some of GW's current mistakes (or at least mistakes as I percieve them). Already Rackham is poised to begin using seperate army books for the Confrontation and AT-43 factions. You could also argue that with AT-43 only releasing with two armies ready for market (and not really that ready) was a mis-step. Look I am not an industry expert. I just know that I want the line of minis I buy into to have some sweet new releases at a rate of about 1 - 2 relaeases every 1 - 3 months. I don't want to buy seperate army books. I want more fluff, and I want fluff that is from many perspectives, so I can get into the game. Is this good for the industry? I have no idea, but it would be great for me.

Ozymandiass
30-03-2007, 18:21
I didn't see this mentioned, but keep in mind this is a non-scientific survey with no sales numbers and does not include GW owned retail stores.

A nice read, and good for a new store wondering what to stock, but ultimately doesn't mean anything.

Also, I learned that 2 of the partners of PP left as did Mike McVey and wife. I don't know how well they are doing...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

eengaming
30-03-2007, 18:23
Holy crap! McVey left! Any confirmation on this?

gjnoronh
30-03-2007, 18:24
Not trying to be a jerk, but if you think WM/Hordes are going anywhere anytime soon... don't count on it. The fact is they are growing and by using a business model for releases that is far superior to GW's (releasing new products for all armies every month) and by creating compelling armies and fluff for all factions (ie. no marine mania) don't be suprised if they eventually are number 1 and 2.


Maybe that's a unique business model but seriously how long do you think they can "release new product for all armies every month" before the rules system gets unwieldy. We're on our fourth rewrite of the rules by my count in four years.


Sorry I just think Warmachine is the next big fad its nothing special. It might not drop out of the sky but it wont last. I rank it up there with Chuck Norris and Dragon Ball Z.

I just cant take something seriously when you tell me your warcaster is using warjacks to wage war upon me in a game called warmachine with foolish looking models.

Tried it, didnt care for it, but if people like it then power to them.



25 years of gaming and just about once to twice a year I've seen someone hail the coming of the new product that will be the next greatest hope of all time. Some of those actually do well for a short time but most of them have left me with rules systems I can't get anyone to play, and minis I can't find a use for besides bits.

PP is making a good product - but besides the hype they still look like one of many good companies out there.

As a skirmish game it certainly has it's attraction I don't find the tactics engrossing but it's fun.

BodhiTree
30-03-2007, 18:37
Also, I learned that 2 of the partners of PP left as did Mike McVey and wife. I don't know how well they are doing...

Ozymandias, King of Kings


Holy crap! McVey left! Any confirmation on this?

I found this: http://forums.privateerpress.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=110833&view=findpost&p=1696488

So I think they're just trying to take the pressure off of Mike. He was 50% of the reason I started WarMachine.

Edit: I doubt he would leave so soon after launching the P3 line, as well as having the final say on all miniature designs - unless the rest of Privateer Press just intended to use him the entire time.

Ozymandiass
30-03-2007, 18:59
A friend of mine attended Game Expo in Vegas and heard that Brian Snody left the company a few months ago and Mike and Aly McVey left only a few weeks ago.

Just passing it along.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Keravin
30-03-2007, 19:06
Given I'm supposed to be interviewing Mike in the next month I think your source is wrong.

Ozymandiass
30-03-2007, 19:19
Just passing the info along, no need to get snoody. ;)

If he's wrong, then that's good news.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Keravin
30-03-2007, 19:22
Just passing the info along so no need to get defensive :)

Ozymandiass
30-03-2007, 19:27
Haha, using emoticons is fun...

Anyways, just so the full story is out there to be later dispelled, my source stated he and Aly were leaving citing differences with the remaining partners of PP.

Again, please dispel away after your interview.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Brandir
30-03-2007, 21:57
Just a quick note on the stats.

They are for North America and are based on retailers filling in forms and sales figures from a large US based distributor. The figures do not take into account GW and WotC as distributors. Also note that Flames of War is not on the list as only Battlefront distribute this game and therefore iCV2 don't have the figures.

But it is interesting reading.

KnightoNi1894
31-03-2007, 12:38
PPS_Adam Mar 28 2007, 01:49 PM Post #14


QUOTE(mountie @ Mar 27 2007, 03:26 PM)

I thought this was McVey's job. Please tell me he is still there.



Mike is still around we are just adding more staff



http://forums.privateerpress.com/index.php?showtopic=110833


Mike's not gone, nor is he going anywhere.

Knight

TeddyC
31-03-2007, 13:39
what retailers did they ask? Indies? No wonder all those others came out top ::)

DonkeyMan
31-03-2007, 20:26
Although for the most part I find people can follow 40k easier then trying to explain steam punk, iron kingdoms, and the engineer magicians to people.

For me it was the other way around when talking to possible table top new starters. In the end it's all about personal taste.

Everybody can think about Privateer Press and Rackham as they want, but it has been quite a long while that competitors are so well known within the table top community. I remember years ago, most people thought that GW was the only company making miniatures. This has changed in the recent years.

I just hope that Privateer Press and Rackham stay around for a very long while. Competition is a good thing for the players. It's long overdue that GW feels some competition again. Look what all the years "ruling" the Table Top Market did to them and no I don't want GW to go bankrupt (just to prevent Fanboys flaming me ;)).
And honestly I personally think that the GW miniatures quality has improved since Privateer Press and Rackham became so well known.

BodhiTree
31-03-2007, 21:01
PPS_Adam Mar 28 2007, 01:49 PM Post #14


QUOTE(mountie @ Mar 27 2007, 03:26 PM)

I thought this was McVey's job. Please tell me he is still there.



Mike is still around we are just adding more staff



http://forums.privateerpress.com/index.php?showtopic=110833


Mike's not gone, nor is he going anywhere.

Knight Thanks for posting what I posted.

Cpt_NinjaPants
29-04-2007, 00:40
I would LOVE PP and Rackham to start matching GW sells, or going over them. Then maybe they'd lower prices, and wouldn't think of them selfs' so high and mighty.
However, i also do not want them to go out of buisness, as i've played most other TT games out their, and i find that most of them are crap, the few that are good and some god awful horrible models. I choose games MOSTLY on models, so, bleh...

Dtrik
29-04-2007, 02:01
I think the reason WHFB is lower is because people see it as more of an investment and more complicated. Warmachine/Hordes are known for their easy to pick up, difficult to master, and smooth play styles while WHFB has a reputation for complex rules and tons of models. This is really interesting though and I'd love to see if the ratings change after a couple years (although I doubt 40k will drop a spot, I bet Space Marine sales alone top all other games)

Mikhaila
29-04-2007, 04:51
The ratings from ICV2, like those from Games Retailer, will change often and quite drastically. They aren't good surveys. They don't use good numbers. They are bases on 'interviews and talks' with a small number of retailers or distributors. Most GW sales are through their own stores, mail order, and direct to indepenents. Distributor numbers don't reflect anything, since they aren't a major post of GW's distribution. Likewise, since Battlefront, (Flames of War), is directly distributed, their numbers don't get taken into account.
ICV2 is good for news, press releases, and interviews. It's surveys should be taken with a grain of salt, at best.

grickherder
30-04-2007, 00:56
Everybody can think about Privateer Press and Rackham as they want, but it has been quite a long while that competitors are so well known within the table top community. I remember years ago, most people thought that GW was the only company making miniatures. This has changed in the recent years.

This is very true. A couple years ago, I was painting up some 19th century british for a zulu wars game (historicals) and a friend of a friend who doesn't know much about miniatures said "is that like warhammer?". A short while ago, I was painting up some 100 years war knights and another aquaintance who came to visit my roommate asked "Is that like warmachine?"


I just hope that Privateer Press and Rackham stay around for a very long while. Competition is a good thing for the players. It's long overdue that GW feels some competition again. Look what all the years "ruling" the Table Top Market did to them and no I don't want GW to go bankrupt (just to prevent Fanboys flaming me ;)).

I completely agree that it's good. I also think that the indie-store and small producer models are so much better than large corporate owned retail stores selling only their products. There's a golden age going on in miniatures right now-- GW, Privateer Press and Confrontation are just the visible tip of the iceberg. They certainly have the volume, but I don't think it's ever been easier for a small producer to sculpt up some figures and sell them.

Definitely check these videos out:
http://marblesminis.blogspot.com/

As for the magazine and it's survey, it is an industry survey in an industry publication. While it may lack the precision of a zogby poll, it's just presenting the simple responses by those surveyed. What it does tell us is that in the US, most indie stores are not overwhelming selling Fantasy. 40k is still strong, but Fantasy is not a clear leader.

Mikhaila
30-04-2007, 01:01
What it does tell us is that in the US, most indie stores are not overwhelming selling Fantasy. 40k is still strong, but Fantasy is not a clear leader.

Keep in mind that those surveys were done just prior to Battle for Skull Pass coming out. Fantasy was in a huge lull. Sales went up quite a bit immediately after BFSP hit the stands. My sales of WFB doubled and stayed high when
7th editon came out.