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VeskitDan
29-03-2007, 20:51
Because Nell2ThaIzzay asked in the Skaven are broken thread, I will outline what I feel is really overpowered to the point of being broken about VC.

Really it is all about the magic. My friends and I have a saying, your magic is only as good as your default spell.... meaning that the default is the only spell you are GUARANTEED to get. Invocation is the best most versatile spell in the game.. Need a redirect unit? Raise one. Need a FiE(Flee into Enemies) unit? Raise one. Need a unit to continue to tarpit a few more turns? Raise them. Need an extra wound or two on your (INSERT BAD ASS MULTIWOUND GUY HERE)? Raise them.

This coupled with IMHO the best support spell in the game in Vanhel's Dance. Add that you can get it guaranteed in a bound form? Priceless....

Sure Skeletons and Zombies are crap, and usually can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, but that's not their role.... VC have tons of support troops that fighting is their role, Grave Guard, Black Knights, Black Coach.

Need warmachine/mage hunters? Ghouls, Direwolves, Bats....

You name the problem unit, VC have an answer for it, even if that answer is to tie it up in a block of skellies/zombies....

Not to mention that being unbreakable (just lose models for diff in combat score), they actually can play the infantry game quite effectively.

Sure you need to protect your mages, and if the general dies your in BIG trouble, but really, name an army that doesn't have similar problems? Just not as prevalent as in the VC.

I am not saying that VC are undefeatable, because no army is, which IMHO is a good thing, but a good VC build will win against 80% of the armies out there, which makes them overpowered IMHO, hence broken.

And for the record, I am not trying to say that I think VC are the only broken armies out there, I fully rank Brettonians and Skaven right up there with them. And currently I am reserving judgement as I haven't gotten enough games against them, but I feel Wood Elves might just fall in that too...

BTW Nell2ThaIzzay I find it funny that the same arguments you were using as Skaven being overpowered are almost the same arguments on why you are saying VC aren't (in that Skaven magic is brutal, but VC are magic reliant which is inconsistant, or that VC have inferior combat, yet your combat units are all way better than anything skaven can put down, and in fact even your 'inferior' combat units have the same stats as slaves)

xiau
29-03-2007, 21:19
VC broken? are you serious......yeah sure they can raise alot, but as quick as you raise them you can smash right through them, all you need to do to shut down a VC list is to scroll caddy, then their totally defenceless. Theres two VC players at our club, iv'e defeated them many of time, VC are far from broken.

Grimtuff
29-03-2007, 21:52
Heh, cute thread. :rolleyes:

sephiroth87
29-03-2007, 22:02
Because Nell2ThaIzzay asked in the Skaven are broken thread, I will outline what I feel is really overpowered to the point of being broken about VC.

Really it is all about the magic. My friends and I have a saying, your magic is only as good as your default spell.... meaning that the default is the only spell you are GUARANTEED to get. Invocation is the best most versatile spell in the game.. Need a redirect unit? Raise one. Need a FiE(Flee into Enemies) unit? Raise one. Need a unit to continue to tarpit a few more turns? Raise them. Need an extra wound or two on your (INSERT BAD ASS MULTIWOUND GUY HERE)? Raise them.

This coupled with IMHO the best support spell in the game in Vanhel's Dance. Add that you can get it guaranteed in a bound form? Priceless....

Sure Skeletons and Zombies are crap, and usually can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, but that's not their role.... VC have tons of support troops that fighting is their role, Grave Guard, Black Knights, Black Coach.

Need warmachine/mage hunters? Ghouls, Direwolves, Bats....

You name the problem unit, VC have an answer for it, even if that answer is to tie it up in a block of skellies/zombies....

Not to mention that being unbreakable (just lose models for diff in combat score), they actually can play the infantry game quite effectively.

Sure you need to protect your mages, and if the general dies your in BIG trouble, but really, name an army that doesn't have similar problems? Just not as prevalent as in the VC.

I am not saying that VC are undefeatable, because no army is, which IMHO is a good thing, but a good VC build will win against 80% of the armies out there, which makes them overpowered IMHO, hence broken.

And for the record, I am not trying to say that I think VC are the only broken armies out there, I fully rank Brettonians and Skaven right up there with them. And currently I am reserving judgement as I haven't gotten enough games against them, but I feel Wood Elves might just fall in that too...

BTW Nell2ThaIzzay I find it funny that the same arguments you were using as Skaven being overpowered are almost the same arguments on why you are saying VC aren't (in that Skaven magic is brutal, but VC are magic reliant which is inconsistant, or that VC have inferior combat, yet your combat units are all way better than anything skaven can put down, and in fact even your 'inferior' combat units have the same stats as slaves)

You spent a lot of time and effort being completely wrong. That's about the long and short of it.

Vampire Counts spend a lot of time being drilled by Wood Elves, Bretonnians, Skaven, and Ogres. I personally have played the Vampire Counts for a pretty long time and I can win with them. However, I've lost lots of games, too, along with winning tournaments and leagues. There are so many armies that either cause fear or are immune to psychology that they kill the undead's main strength: fear. Also present is the fact that any magic heavy army can be effectively shut down with 2 level one casters and a couple of dispel scrolls. If you're losing the fight against the vampire counts, you're simply not playing well.

If you want to rant, go ahead. If you want to win, post your list and I'll help you.

Talonz
29-03-2007, 22:11
I like the VC army, both to play against and to play with.

To say that 2 spells they have are good is fine, to say that having 2 good spells (in addition to the undead rules) makes them broken, is silly. Sorry.

Nell2ThaIzzay
29-03-2007, 22:18
Because Nell2ThaIzzay asked in the Skaven are broken thread, I will outline what I feel is really overpowered to the point of being broken about VC.

Interesting.

Well, as a Vampire Counts player, I will state that I do not believe that Vampire Counts are broken, and I have only been called "cheesy" once, by a poor sport of a player who cried when I beat him, and has a history of throwing other players' models around the store when he loses, and feels that HE has to win every game.

So allow me to give my rebuttal.


Really it is all about the magic. My friends and I have a saying, your magic is only as good as your default spell.... meaning that the default is the only spell you are GUARANTEED to get. Invocation is the best most versatile spell in the game.. Need a redirect unit? Raise one. Need a FiE(Flee into Enemies) unit? Raise one. Need a unit to continue to tarpit a few more turns? Raise them. Need an extra wound or two on your (INSERT BAD ASS MULTIWOUND GUY HERE)? Raise them.

Yes, with Vampire Counts, it is all about the magic. You are correct. And before we go any further, let me just state one thing; I do not believe there is anything wrong with a magic oriented army. Many people around here seem to believe so. I think that's a load of ----. Why? Because there are 4 phases to the game. I believe that each one is just as legit an option. I don't think that any one is less important to the game, and the diversity in armies allows for a better game when different armies utilize different phases, based on their different strengths, allowing different styles of play. Many people will also argue that in a -WAR- game, they want combat tactics, and that is fine. I enjoy the tactical side of the game as well, that's why I play, because it's not mindless. But I actually find the magic phase to be a lot more tactical. The combat phase is pretty much just crash your block of unit's into your opponent's block of units, and roll dice to see who wins. The magic phase, you are thinking of what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. And if you are playing against an army with much magic defense, you are also trying to cast your spells intelligently, to know what spells to try to lure your opponent's dispel dice out with, and what spells absolutley MUST get off. To me, the magic phase is a thinking man's game. I think it is more tactical than close combat. Not only that, but this -IS- a fantasy game, and magic is a very big part of fantasy.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, back to the point. Yes, Vampire Counts magic is VERY powerful, and Invokation of Nehek is an amazing spell. However, magic is the one phase in Warhammer that is more dictated by how much your opponent has invested into it than how much you have. I could have 3-4 mages running around (as I often do, I run anywhere between 9-12 power dice in any given game playing 2150 pts), but it's pretty much all for naught if I am going against an army with heavy magic defense, because they will just find a way to negate my magic phase. My friend and regular opponent knows my army, so will often roll with about 3-4 dispel scrolls, on top of his 6 or so dispel dice, negating much of whatever investment into magic I have made. So magic, while powerful and devasating, is something unreliable to count on. And I have lost MANY times in Warhammer for going strong magic, instead of strong anything else. I don't think I've won very many games because of a strong magic phase, but I have lost many games because of a strong magic phase.


This coupled with IMHO the best support spell in the game in Vanhel's Dance. Add that you can get it guaranteed in a bound form? Priceless....

It's not exactly guaranteed when it's only power level 3, very easy to dispel on one die, virtually guaranteed on 2. Not only that, but unlike many other bound spells, it can exhaust on the roll of a 1, and never be used again that game.

BUT, Vanhel's Danse Macabre is a very very powerful spell, in the fact that you can get magic phase charges. I have seen many other, more powerful movement spells from other lores, however. Vanhel's Danse Macabre is 8", I've seen 2D6 inch movement spells, that don't allow charge reactions. It's a very good spell, but not the best movement spell out there.


Sure Skeletons and Zombies are crap, and usually can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, but that's not their role.... VC have tons of support troops that fighting is their role, Grave Guard, Black Knights, Black Coach.

Grave Guard, as a special unit, still have a statline that many CORE units are better that. So Grave Guard aren't exactly top of the line. Really, their strength comes from Killing Blow, which is good, but again, not something to exactly count on. My Grave Guard unit only really dominates because I field them with a Wight Lord (carrying Sword of the Kings, of course, and a 2+ armor save through his equipment) as well as my Necrarch Vampire Count general. It's my Wight Lord and my Vampire Count that roll in the wounds to make my Grave Guard a beefy unit, it's not exactly the Grave Guard doing much of the damage. Black Knights are very good on the charge, with a strength of 6, but I think the CR crumbling hurts them more than just about any other unit in our army, to the point where I am never able to field them because 1 wound is devastating to them. But they have the potential to roll up entire regiments, yes. Same with the Black Coach, but again, is only good on the charge. After the charge, or if it gets charged, it is effectivley destroyed.


Need warmachine/mage hunters? Ghouls, Direwolves, Bats....

Who doesn't have something like that though? Our Fell Bats are pretty ****ty when it comes to fliers. Ghouls really aren't all that great, really better as screeners, and Direwolves are fast, but die EASILY to shooting.


You name the problem unit, VC have an answer for it, even if that answer is to tie it up in a block of skellies/zombies....

We do have the summoning, something that nobody else has, but every army has something that nobody else has.

Albiet, the summoning thing IS very good.


Not to mention that being unbreakable (just lose models for diff in combat score), they actually can play the infantry game quite effectively.

Depends, I have seen entire blocks of Zombie and Skeletons get wiped out on one charge, so the unbreakable isn't always really much better. But yes, being unbreakable, and being able to hold up units is very effective. It can be used to great success, but again, every army has their strengths that can be used to great success.


Sure you need to protect your mages, and if the general dies your in BIG trouble, but really, name an army that doesn't have similar problems? Just not as prevalent as in the VC.

Actually, Vampire Counts is the only army that I know of that suffers a penalty for losing their general. For other armies, it's just the loss of a character, and a 12" leadership bonus. For us, it's practically an auto-lose situation, as the rest of our army begins to crumble away, faster than we can resummon it. So our units start dying off without our opponent having to do anything. No other army suffers from a penalty for losing their general. And without magic, we have absolutley NOTHING. Without magic, then our Zombies and Skeletons are just a bunch of inferior troops running around, without anything to help them in combat. Our Grave Guard are just average troops with Killing Blow. Take out our magic, and you've won the game, it's that simple. I've never seen another army so devoted to that phase. You take out Lizardman or Chaos mages? Well, they still have big beefy troops. Bretonnian mages? They still have Lance Formation. Skaven mages? They still have powerful shooting, Strength In Numbers, Life Is Cheap, etc... Vampire mages? Loss.


I am not saying that VC are undefeatable, because no army is, which IMHO is a good thing, but a good VC build will win against 80% of the armies out there, which makes them overpowered IMHO, hence broken.

Playing at Games Workshop, I have a total of 4 wins.

1 came against my Skaven friend. 1 came against a newb kid playing Dwarves. 1 came against a poor sport player who really didn't know how to play the game. And the last one came against a Dwarf gunline. Out of those 4 wins at Games Workshop, 2 of them are legit (the other 2 were against kids who didn't really know what they were doing). Of those 2 wins, one of them came against a regular opponent that I play outside of Games Workshop anyways. So, I have 1 legitamate win with Vampire Counts outside of my normal friends. I have a few wins against my friend's Skaven army, as well as a few against his Lizardmen, but definatley more losses than wins, easily. I probably lose about 8 out of 10 times to him. And I have a couple wins against my other friend's Bretonnian army, but he is new to the game, and still doesn't really have a great feel for the game, nor his army, nor does he really have a truly refined list that he wants to play. So my success is very limited.

And I'd like to think that I'm a good player. I know I'm not the best, I know I have flaws, and I can normally pinpoint where I've made mistakes in a game, as I am knowledgable enough of them to be able to know them when I see them. I have had compliments from nearly every opponent of mine (who wasn't a whiney, crying, 17 year old with obvious mental conditions) as to how well I play my army. So I'm not just some dumb idiot player who couldn't win if I fielded 3000 points against a unit of Slaves.

I'm not saying the Vampire Counts army is underpowered. I don't believe it is, not in the least bit. I just believe that we have glaring weaknesses that can help to counter our strengths. Anything that causes fear, or terror, is immune to one of our biggest strengths. And fear causing enemies isn't really all that uncommon. Anything immune to psychology negates that same strength. Anything that outnumbers us is able to stand their own against our strengths. Anything worth a damn in combat should be able to make up combat res against us through wounds dealt. They aren't that hard to do to us. Take out the general (I guess easier said than done when said general is a Blood Dragon, but I don't run Blood Dragon, I run Necrarch, so it's not too hard to take out my general if you know what you're doing) and you've won the game. No other army suffers from that. Magic heavy armies inherently negate what it is we need to be successful, so magic heavy armies can beat us. Our mages are probably the easiest in Warhammr to kill, as they have an inferior statline to nearly every other magic character I've seen in the game, so we can be killed easily in combat if we stick with a unit, but if we leave a unit, we are open to shooting or charges by fliers / fast cav / etc... so our Necromancers are in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.


And for the record, I am not trying to say that I think VC are the only broken armies out there, I fully rank Brettonians and Skaven right up there with them. And currently I am reserving judgement as I haven't gotten enough games against them, but I feel Wood Elves might just fall in that too...

I don't think any army is -broken-. None that I have gone against. I think that Skaven are overpowered. Slightly. They need some tweaking. Nothing major, but a little bit. Some of their rules work good in concept, for fluff, but on the table prove to be a bit overwhelming to opponents. I think they need to be SLIGHTLY brought into line with everyone else, but I don't want to see any drastic changes done to them, because they are not broken.

I haven't played enough Brettonian to see them as overpowered. They have the Lance formation, yes, but after the charge, they are freaking WEAK. I dunno about Wood Elves. I have the book, as I want to get into them, but I haven't seen anything, -on paper-, that leads me to believe they are over powered. And I have only played against them once, so I can't say.

But from my experience as a Vampire Counts player, we aren't really broken. I wouldn't even say overpowered. I would say that we have some amazing strengths, and can do things that no other army can, but they can easily be dealt with, or negated from the get go. I have the win / loss record to prove that we can be dealt with, and I'd like to think enough skill and compliments from other players to show that it's not just because I suck.


BTW Nell2ThaIzzay I find it funny that the same arguments you were using as Skaven being overpowered are almost the same arguments on why you are saying VC aren't (in that Skaven magic is brutal, but VC are magic reliant which is inconsistant, or that VC have inferior combat, yet your combat units are all way better than anything skaven can put down, and in fact even your 'inferior' combat units have the same stats as slaves)

I guess the difference is, Vampire Counts are dependant upon their magic. Skaven have many other things going for them in addition to their magic, so while magic is inherently unreliable, Skaven have stronger or equal magic to a lot of magic oriented armies, while having other strengths that those armies don't have. I think it's kind of weird that Skaven have just as powerful a phase, and more powerful magic than, Necrarch Vampires, who devote their entire existence to gaining power through magic. Or comparable magic phases to Lizardmen Slann, or High Elves, or such (although I realize that Slann have other bonuses to magic that give them a stronger phase than Skaven, I'm mainly talking pure power dice, and strength of spells).

So because of those other strengths, when the Skaven can't count on their magic phase, they have other things that they can fall back on. Vampire Counts don't have a fall back from their magic phase. It makes them that much more dependant on that phase, and when it goes bad (which is common, via miscasts, unsuccessful to-cast rolls, and dispels), they are screwed, as there is no "plan b".[dice0]

Agoz
29-03-2007, 23:08
I'm a long time VC player and I have lost and won many games, so I know a thing or two about how they play, are they broken? not in the least, sure they are reliable, but if you can shut down their magic, its pretty much a massacre after that, a VC army playing against an army which is heavy on anti-psyc troops will also do very well against a VC army. If you can combine bolth you have pretty much won from the start. Heres an example:

I'm playing a standard VC strigoi army
Strigoi lord lvl2
necromancer
necromancer

spear skeletons x20
skeletons x20
zombies x20
grave guard x16
3 ghost hosts
3 bat swarms
black coach

and my opponent is Archeon's hoard of khorne
Khorne champ on mount (no Idea what he had)
2 khorne champions

4 units of 2 hand weapon khorne warriors x12 each
2 6 man chosen knight units
Hell cannon

heres how it went, he had about 11 dispell dice, and I had about 8 power dice, I had no magic phase.
I tried to up his units so that they would be forced to charge into traps involving at least 3 units, little did I know, even if his warriors were charged by 2 units, they easily made mince meat out of all three units. the battle was a slaughter from the start, I think I managed to kill around 3 warriors and mabey a chosen...

I have played against him 3 times and each battle has been the same, so as you can see, VC are hardley broken.

scatterlaser
29-03-2007, 23:16
So because of those other strengths, when the Skaven can't count on their magic phase, they have other things that they can fall back on. Vampire Counts don't have a fall back from their magic phase. It makes them that much more dependant on that phase, and when it goes bad (which is common, via miscasts, unsuccessful to-cast rolls, and dispels), they are screwed, as there is no "plan b".[dice0]
They're only completely magic-dependent if you build the army that way. It's quite possible to make a perfectly competitive VC army that only uses magic in a supporting role. Base the army around tough things that can fight (Vampires, Grave Guard, Ghouls, Black Knights, etc), and you don't need to be constantly topping everything up with Invocations. My VC army doesn't quite slim down magic that far (a Count and two Necromancers is a bit more than just support), but on the other hand if the magic doesn't work too well I've got a backup plan (ie hit things with a pair of Vampires and some Wights).

Talonz
29-03-2007, 23:39
... my opponent is Archeon's hoard of khorne... he had about 11 dispell dice ... even if his warriors were charged by 2 units, they easily made mince meat out of all three units. the battle was a slaughter from the start, I think I managed to kill around 3 warriors and mabey a chosen...I have played against him 3 times and each battle has been the same, so as you can see, VC are hardley broken.


In fact I'd say thats a good argument for Khorne chaos being broken.

Although such a force would be vulnerable to shooting and luring, still...for a non-shooty army to have no chance against it as you describe...and 11 dispel dice...ridiculous.

Agoz
29-03-2007, 23:52
yes, his army pretty much pulverized any plans for redirection I made, but I dont hold it against him, he had a very impressive commander riding a juggernought which he managed to reposition so that it was rearing.

laughingman
29-03-2007, 23:52
Well it seems to me people are relying on arguing that "if my opponent has a decent magic protection"

Well the average player runs 5 dispell and one scroll. Thats either a level 4 and a lv 2 or 3 lv 2's. If you playing against a player that runs magic heavy, then 6 dispell 2 scrolls.

I want to emphasis that more that two scrolls is alot to invest in non-troop support. The person running 4 dispell scrolls is paying 100 points for protection. Thats worth it in my opinion to just accept no magic till i get rid of some wizards. He is 75 points behind me from the start. I run one scroll always, unless its a caddy and then two.

So to begin with Im winning. He dispells one spell with a scroll that spell just won me 25 vp(theoretically) Plus he has to use dice, which even rolling more than my casting can still be a lower score.

VC have great bound items, and are a must for competative players. That power level 4 now costs him two dice(so he has a 90 percent chance to dispell it, or a scroll which then means my bound spell that can be used every turn mae its points back and all it can do from there is be good to me.

In a tournament if someone comes in with 4 scrolls and 6 dice, just wait till they start out against a non magic army, and there 100 points in the whole to begin with.

It always made my khorn army smile, smile hard

To reiderate, I dont think any army is broken, not skaven, bretonia nor vc. However, If I had to rank them in power, VC is one of the top 3.
[dice0]

Gimp
30-03-2007, 00:09
There are many ways to kill a VC army.

This is what I do

My first move is to kill the two or three necromancers in the army as I usually have some form of bolt throwers (i play dark elves and orcs and goblins) my enemy has to hide them in units of skeletons or zombies. so take a unit of wolf riders or dark riders and do a frontal charge. I kill the necromaner then loss combat and flee.

My second move is kill the large unit. Skeletons and Zombies are slow so I hit them in the flanks.

Finnaly go for the Vampire.

Note my best victory ever is when my 15 man unit of executioners charged a Vampire Lord (with the help of a banner of murder). Champion accepts the challenge and killing blows the poor undead sucker :rolleyes: .

DesertDirge
30-03-2007, 02:18
So... you could alomost say that VC are almost as easy to take out as... Skaven??

LOL... I swear people complain just to complain. Every army has their strenghts which can be called "Broken". I'm sick of these threads.

Rightnow
30-03-2007, 02:39
VC are not broken. The Sylvania list was close to it for a while, but people just figured out they could put a unit on top of the "raise markers" and prevent any more units from coming up.

I don't see a whole lot of VC at tournaments anymore. The reason is probably that the models are very old. Fear has lost a bit of power in the 7th edition, and the miscast table worse. Most new armies deal with fear much better thanks to abilities and magic items.

VC are not overpowering. Powerful, but not cheesy.

Lord_Byron
30-03-2007, 05:40
4 words.

Wand of Wytch Elm.

That will completely shut down a vampire count's magic phase for a bargain price.

sulla
30-03-2007, 06:13
I am not saying that VC are undefeatable, because no army is, which IMHO is a good thing, but a good VC build will win against 80% of the armies out there, which makes them overpowered IMHO, hence broken.



Wow, if that was the case, they definately would be broken. Luckily, VC are nowhere near that good.

Vattendroppe
30-03-2007, 06:29
So, WE are broken, skaven are broken, VC are broken, TK are broken, brets are broken, BoC are broken, HoC are broken, dwarfs are broken, lizzies are broken, ogre kingdoms and empire are broken are broken... Only to fix HE, DE, DoW and OaG to be broken and we're set to have fair play again! :D

Seriously, every army book can be seen as broken if you want. Cut the crap, VC are not in any way better than other good lists. I've played against a empire-list that had about 60% result "massacre" and 10% loss. And I beat it. It's mostly up to the player, a good one can win alot. Simple as that.

Okay, now it sounded like I was some kind of godlike player, my point was that he's a good player with his list and I could beat him even though I'm not half as experienced than him.

EDIT: I'm lousy at writing some times. Summing up my point; Good generals win a lot, no general is unbeatable.

snurl
30-03-2007, 09:22
Try not dropping your box of miniatures so often, then your army will not be so broken. Those darn skeletons will snap off arms or legs or spears at the slightest bit of pressure.

Gorbad Ironclaw
30-03-2007, 09:22
Well the average player runs 5 dispell and one scroll.


Not where I am. 5 Dispel dice and 2 scrolls would be more like it, unless they are going for magic defence. The number of dice varies more than the number of scrolls, but I almost never see less than 2 scrolls.


Anyway, unless you go all out on magic, it's only part of the army, and it alone shouldn't win or lose you the game. It's perfectly possible to build VC armies thats not dependent on magic. My own army functions fine with few or even no spells, although of course, they help a lot.

The real strength of the VC army is that every unit is actually usable. A few is a little sub-par, but none are really bad(Bat Swarms might come close now tho) and it actually takes skill to build a bad army. That, and they are rock solid and reliable.

Regardless, VC have lost a bit of there edge. Wood Elves and Ogres stop all over them with embarrassing ease, and even armies like Empire have gotten a lot more resistant to there fear.

They are a good solid army, that you can play pretty much however you want and still do well with, but they are no longer near the top of the power ranking I think.

Kahadras
30-03-2007, 09:57
So... you could alomost say that VC are almost as easy to take out as... Skaven??

LOL... I swear people complain just to complain. Every army has their strenghts which can be called "Broken". I'm sick of these threads

and yet here you are complaining. At least try to join in with the discussion.

IMHO Undead are OK. They have some really good advantages which are countered by some glaringly obvious drawbacks. I used to play VC way back when, but I've played against them a few times in 6th ed and had some good games against them.

Although you will be facing a magic heavy army one of the skills of Warhammer is knowing what to counter when it comes to magic. I really don't mind my opponant casting Invocation of Nehek to raise some more troops, what I do mind is Curse of Years on my expencive knight unit or a flank charge with the use of Vanhel's Danse Macabre .

Kahadras

Gimp
30-03-2007, 10:29
Try not dropping your box of miniatures so often, then your army will not be so broken. Those darn skeletons will snap off arms or legs or spears at the slightest bit of pressure.

Ha that was a pretty good joke.

However it is sad when something terrible happens to you warhammer box :eek:

Tutore
30-03-2007, 14:10
I never lost to a VC player, although it may be because none of them was a really good one. I find their list fun and interesting, although many of their units costs much for having poor fighters. Bats, wolves... they are weaker than their other listsī equals. If you shut down 75% of the magic phase, VC will have a bad day trying to win. I find that their book has to be empowered to give players the right choice between them and Tomb Kings, which I find rather more efficient than Vampire Counts.

EvC
30-03-2007, 17:41
Vampire Counts are not broken, but tend to rely on the magic phase a bit too much; against an army full of dispel dice winning is really difficult. The smallest magic defence an army can have is two dispel dice, but I've never played an army at 2000 points with less than four dice.

Now, most undead spellcasters are level 2, which means they can only roll three dice at once. The standard army set-up is three spellcasters at level 2, meaning they basically get to cast two spells with three dice and one with two. So that means half of attempts to cast Curse of Years will fail straight off. A third of attempts to cast VDM will fail straight off. The remaining two dice? Well the only sensible thing is to try and use them to raise D6 skeletons (With a zombie cherry on top). Then there's the chance of miscast, the game before last the very first casting attempt with my general was 1, 1 and 1. If I'd continued my streak of ones the game would have been over in turn 1.

Since VC's have no proper shooting it's worth noting that the desire for a magic missile means that many generals will try and get the gaze of Nagash and failing that, take the Lore of Death for their third spellcaster. If your army falters in the face of one spell that wounds 1/6 of whatever unit it hits and another 2D6 S4 hits, then how will it face up to an army with a single Bolt Thrower? Let's not be dumb here.

Now it's true there are good Bound items- the Staff of Damnation and Book of Arkhan are both wonderful items, both of which will either be saved until revealing them has the most gain, or they might expire.

So in one magic phase, the person facing the undead will have to endure:
1 Attempt to cast Curse of Years which has a 50% chance of failure, OR an attempt to raise 2D6 undead. Not really scary is it?
1 Attempt at a decent magic missile, movement support spell or another attempt at raising 2D6 skeletons. Meanwhile the undead are lurching forwards and getting shot at with nothing to fire back, is it really so bad? And if the undead try and make a new unit, it'll be so small that anything will be able to take it.

So save those 4 minimum dice and take out one spell and what do you have from the VC magic phase? 3D6 more skeletons, 10 on average. Is that so terrible?

Wurzag
30-03-2007, 18:20
Like any army it all depends on the general who is controlling the army. The better and more experienced of a player the better they can use their strengths and your weaknesses agaisnt you. No army is broken, it might seem that way if you are playing a well experienced player who has played many games and knows a thing or two on who he is playing against so he can exploit his opponets weaknesses. If you gave a vc army to a player who has only been playing for a year and has only played lets say 7-20 games (depending how offten they play) you will think that vc are not brokken at all. But givin into the hands of someone who has played for many more like 10 years you might say that the vc army is brokken.

Heretic Burner
30-03-2007, 23:16
VC have several design flaws.

First off they are far too powerful against armies that are prone to their psychology advantage, and far too weak against armies that aren't. The first solution is obvious, as the rules for psychology are unlikely to change the units with those advantages need to be toned down considerably.

The second problem is more difficult. VC need a playstyle that doesn't rely on that advantage so they can be on even terms with armies that ignore their fear. So how? A good selection of living units would help. Your werewolves, ghouls, living bats, and other classic elements of horror. Their cavalry is already vastly underpriced so no problem there.

Their magic must also change, but probably not too drastically. Invocation must be changed fundamentally, far too flexible. I believe a stricter LOS tweak will help solve many problems as well as a change to the positioning of the newly raised unit. Raising into an already created unit isn't too bad, but creating a new unit has opened a whole can of worms. And lets face it, 7th edition has made fleeing through units, even 5 zombies, devastating. That needs to be changed quickly. Invocation needs drastic changes. Curse of Years can be toned down. I like the support spells, very decent.

Before the release of newer armies that overtook them, VC were the dominant tournament army. They are a powerful army right now and very much above average. Do they need to be toned down, particularly their magic? Sure. Are they anywhere near the frontrunner power armies anymore though? Not really.

EvC
30-03-2007, 23:22
Ironically when the new army book is finally released I can only see them being made more powerful. If the book is written by someone who loves the army, of course.

Heretic Burner
30-03-2007, 23:32
Put Mat Ward on it :D

Grymlok
31-03-2007, 00:12
Do you ever get the feeling, from reading what the warseer faithful post, that the army books would turn out better if written by us lot? I think that for each book they should take four players, two that play the army and two that regularly face up against the army. Get them together, think tank their ideas and let them argue each and every one of them. At the end of the process the perfect army book might appear!

On the other hand, the argument may just last eternity and the book never even get written.

sulla
31-03-2007, 02:48
Do you ever get the feeling, from reading what the warseer faithful post, that the army books would turn out better if written by us lot? I think that for each book they should take four players, two that play the army and two that regularly face up against the army. Get them together, think tank their ideas and let them argue each and every one of them. At the end of the process the perfect army book might appear!

On the other hand, the argument may just last eternity and the book never even get written.

The great thing about being an armchair general/coach is that your team never has to take the field. We can say whatever we like about what an army needs but at the end of the day, it will never fail because it will never be put to the test by all the maniacal players out there who try to break them. The army we dream of will only be played in our own imaginations in exactly the way we imagined it, not by small minded powergamers who try their damnest to min-max the heck out of them. I've yet to see a fanlist that wasn't either horrible easy to abuse, bloated with rules forbidding just about everything or just a glorified wishlist so in answer to your question, no, I don't really want a fan based armybook.

And as a rule, I would say no to any comittee based project for the exact reason you have listed too. :D

Goldenwolf
31-03-2007, 09:01
I just wish they would playtest the armies they have in the shop. If you play an army 10-15 times, you get a feel for what works and what doesn't. What is good flavor for that army, and what is cheese.

Now imagine if 4 people in the design area each played 10-15 times as/against that army before even thinking about the book. It seems that would make each army better. They would see what units work and which need changes.

I admit VC can smash certain armies, but get smashed by others. Such is the game, is it not? If any 1 army was overpowered everyone would play them. When certain armies are underpowered they get less play.[dice0]

Goldenwolf
31-03-2007, 09:02
Ouch that die roll hurt