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Reflex
30-03-2007, 09:21
interesting isant it...

(random thought... i can see LoTR going the way of necromunder, oh we dont stock them in store any longer)


* Battlefleet Gothic
* The Battle Of Five Armies
* Blood Bowl
* Epic Armageddon
* Inquisitor
* Mordheim
* Necromunda
* Warmaster

there they are... the specailist games...
most great.. havent tryed the 5 armies.. related to LoTR???

anywho... put your hands up if you think some of these should be put back on the shelves in stores?

(i for one do)

i am currently reading the necro rules... i dont know whyy GW took this off the shelf... it seems like a really great game. but why?

no seriuosly can some one tell me...

i dont understand.


:eyebrows:

snurl
30-03-2007, 09:26
I would like to see them all return to the shelves.
Hard to say just why GW decided to treat them differently than it's core games.

simonr1978
30-03-2007, 12:13
i am currently reading the necro rules... i dont know whyy GW took this off the shelf... it seems like a really great game. but why?

no seriuosly can some one tell me...

i dont understand.


:eyebrows:

Dragging this back on topic...

I think the key to this is that the games themselves are mainly there to sell models. Whilst I think Necromunda is a great game, one of its strengths as far as GW goes is that you need very few models to play, starting gangs are rarely as large as 10 figures in the games I've played and grow at a slow rate equally rarely exceeding 20 figures for a large gang. Even if people buy two or three large gangs each that's far fewer figures than most normal sized WH40K armies, and usually no vehicles.

As a game it's great, as a means to sell models not so good. Add that to the usual cycle of Special Games being promoted then falling out of favour after a bit of time's passed... I don't think Necromunda will get an in-store presence again any time soon.

ashc
30-03-2007, 12:26
simonr1978 pretty much hit the nail on the head on why specialist games are no longer stocked in store; as far as gw are concerned they want to try and sell you a 300 army, and not maybe a 50 complete specialist game.

of course, what they forget is that usually people will buy one warband then another then another because of what a good deal they seem to be, and in the long run still spend the big money.

oh well.

I entirely disagree with the sentiments on LOTR; it can still sell well, sells large armies, and there is a good core of players to the game too, despite what the warhammer purists think.

Ash

Vic
30-03-2007, 15:53
SPACE HULK!!

I want that game back! And you can add more minis to it, just make like an advanced version of the game which would lend itself to selling more minis (and if they are termies, expensive ones at that!).

rev
30-03-2007, 16:00
bloodbowl, inquisitor, BFG rule books are all on the shelves in my local GW.

they also seel the bloodbowl game AND boxed teams IN store.

rev

Templar Ben
30-03-2007, 16:04
How involved is Necromunda compared to say a kill team? I haven't played it but I gather that there are rules for where exactly you hit and what exactly is cover and that sort of thing. I could see it coming back if it could have a stronger tie to 40K. I think that is where they were trying to go with Kill Teams but the rules are more 40K and therefore they blur a lot of things together.

Grimshawl
30-03-2007, 18:45
GW have done all they could to kill interest in the Specialist Games short of pulling the plug entirely, if they had done taken that final step at least it could have been an honest clean death for my favorite games instead of the lingering misinformation campaign GW have waged on those poor sods who are still hanging on.
Necromunda is a special favorite of mine, I have three gangs including a particularly large 18 man gang of Scavies and at one time my local gaming group had almost twenty people buying gangs and playing campaigns, but with GWs help this number has dwindled to nothing over the years.
I love Epic in all its forms except epic 40k, I have bought 4 entire armies, three of which are four or five times bigger than the 3000 pts you normally fieled nowadays and I would have loved to have bought an entire new army from GW for Chaos but all their offerening, and after years of foot dragging I might point out is the old infantry sprue and no other forces.
Epic doesnt suffer from needing only a few models to play either I might add and since its 6mm you dont just use your epic figs for 40k or vice versa so it doesnt take away anything from 40k sales wise.
Bfg is another great game, heck it and epic both add to the 40k experience by allowing you to play fully encompassing campaigns if you want to.
Eh the list goes on, all the specialist games that I have played are great, most of them are superior to the big three core games ruleswise and if they were actually supported in an intelligent manner they would be contributing the success of GW, unfortuantely mismanagement and bad timing/planning on GWs part have confined these games to near obscurity most places.

diehard0123
30-03-2007, 19:09
I recently started playing Mordheim and I just picked up two Nechromunda warbands. I would love to see these two games get a new rebirth. Great games and cheap to play! I love the fluff behind the Mordheim game. I would at least like to see the rulebooks sold in GW stores along with a few warbands, as it stands now you must either buy the box set for mordheim or download the 200 page rule book online.

dax
30-03-2007, 19:15
I have no problem with Specialist games not being available in the shops - I prefer to order online anyway - and I accept that they are not profitable enough to justify retail space just so long as GW continue to support the specialist games. That means new miniatures as well as just putting up pdf files of stuff thats already available.

Reflex
31-03-2007, 01:36
I have no problem with Specialist games not being available in the shops - I prefer to order online anyway - and I accept that they are not profitable enough to justify retail space just so long as GW continue to support the specialist games. That means new miniatures as well as just putting up pdf files of stuff thats already available.

its all good and well that you prefer to order online, but what about us saps who choose to not have a credit card, we can really only buy our stuff in store. and when they refuse to even get it in for you, well where dose that leave us... with no specailist games i tell you.

i would love to play epic and BFG... but i cant literally play it because i cant get it, and in my area there would be no one else interested in playing it.

snurl
31-03-2007, 05:41
At least they still have necromunda and Mordheim in the catalouge, along with inquisitor and Battlefleet and epic and Blood Bowl........
But there were other games as well which have disappeared completely.
Gorka Morka-
Heroquest-
Warhammer Quest-
Bombers over da sulpha river
to name a few.

The game is afoot
31-03-2007, 07:44
* The Battle Of Five Armies
. havent tryed the 5 armies.. related to LoTR???

It's Warmaster with an LotR flavour.

My personal favourite specialist game is Man O War but they dropped that in the early 90's.
I used to love that Fantasy Naval wargame, great models and good fun to play.

1st edition space hulk was a winner too as long as the terran player was on the timer.

lanrak
31-03-2007, 11:21
Hi all.
I think the real difference is that specialist games ,including the long OOP GW games like Dark Future and Man of war,were developed as great games you realy enjoyed playing.The game play was the most important issue.
The fact older gamers still play these games 15 years later in preferance to the 'core' games sort of backs this up in my oppinoin.
These games were developed when GW was actualy a games workshop.
When the emphasis was on developing games and improving the quality of the games with the gamers input.

I strongly belive GWPLC is more accuratley SELL MORE MODELS PLC ,nowadays.

They appear to use thier IP and talented staff just to market models ,and have little inclination to improve any of thier 'core games.'

Working on the mentality if poeple buy the models who cares about the rules sets.

And I know there will be shouts of but '40k and WH have been developed!!'

I would like to point out these games have simply had the model range increased ,and the quality of the games has suffered through the drive to market models ,rather than inprove the quality of game play.

And I find it odd that GW seem to think that all current SGs only require the support of ONE full time member of GW staff.

So GW PLC, is NOT interested in gamers.Just Hobbiests that will buy build and paint lots of thier models.

I long for the return of the true GAMES WORKSHOP.When the developers are allowed to develop the actual games,not be told how to market the next release of models.


TTFN
Lanrak.

Hercco
31-03-2007, 18:01
I find the concept of company's own stores carrying only their core product ranges (that are already quite well available elsewhere) quite odd.

I perfectly understand that indie stockists don't carry specialists games; the games sell very little compared to Warhammers and LotR and once you buy a batch from GW you can't return them (at least for the same value).

I think the whole point of having own line of retail stores is to offer the best possible service and availability to customers. I have hard time believing that shelf space is the issue as most of the specialist games stuff come in blisters and they take very little space.

I've recently gotten into BFG and Warmaster is probably my favourite GW game. If local GW had Warmaster and BFG I might just have some business there. Now I just do my 40k and LotR shopping elsewhere.

the1stpip
31-03-2007, 18:41
It is undetsatndable that GW stores don't have enough space for all the Specialist Games. I grew up with them, and still play BB lots (I think I have 7 or 8 teams now), Necro, Man O War, a half painted Epic Ork Army, and I have started converting a DE fleet for BFG.

The issue is trying to find people to play. All the youngsters only know the three games. WD support is very few and far between. Most kids don't even know what BB is (which is a travesty, as it is one of the best games ever).

They do need more promotion. These games cannot be allowed to disappear into the dark...

LessThanSimple
31-03-2007, 20:41
The core games require much more room, I totally understand that. But why not put the Specialist Games starter sets and rule books on the shelves. This would allow people to easily start those games (gathering additional models over the internet or mail order) without crowding the stores with all those extra boxes and blisters.

Maybe we should stage a hostile takeover of GW headquarters and force these game back into stores?

Firestorm Falcon
31-03-2007, 22:47
My local store does have the starter sets for the games in store, as well as the rulebooks, am I just lucky or is this normal. It's not the lack of stock that annoys me it's the fact they physically won't let us play specialist games in store. Talk about killing a game.

LessThanSimple
31-03-2007, 23:27
My local store does have the starter sets for the games in store, as well as the rulebooks, am I just lucky or is this normal.

Definately not the norm.



It's not the lack of stock that annoys me it's the fact they physically won't let us play specialist games in store. Talk about killing a game.

When my local GW used to carry some of the Specialist Games we would be able to play them certain nights of the week, That doesn't happen now. We also used to have all out miniatures painted, but I see unpainted and half painted armies much more often than a fully painted on nowadays... But that's a topic for another time...

Reflex
01-04-2007, 02:24
a guy walked into the store with a necro gang, and then his mate walked in 3 or 4 mins later with a necro gang.. they asked the new staff emeber if they could have a game on the 40k CoD table... no worries, go ahead he said...

the manager walkes in from his lucnh break and told them to pack it up. because they dont want new guys knowing about them...

so, i think its obvious that GW only wants the 3 games... WFB, W40K and LoTR... they dont even want the specialist games to be around anymore... so i would not be surprised if they vanish off the websites soon...

Grimshawl
01-04-2007, 03:28
Hi all.
I think the real difference is that specialist games ,including the long OOP GW games like Dark Future and Man of war,were developed as great games you realy enjoyed playing.The game play was the most important issue.
The fact older gamers still play these games 15 years later in preferance to the 'core' games sort of backs this up in my oppinoin.
These games were developed when GW was actualy a games workshop.
When the emphasis was on developing games and improving the quality of the games with the gamers input.

I strongly belive GWPLC is more accuratley SELL MORE MODELS PLC ,nowadays.

They appear to use thier IP and talented staff just to market models ,and have little inclination to improve any of thier 'core games.'

Working on the mentality if poeple buy the models who cares about the rules sets.

And I know there will be shouts of but '40k and WH have been developed!!'

I would like to point out these games have simply had the model range increased ,and the quality of the games has suffered through the drive to market models ,rather than inprove the quality of game play.

And I find it odd that GW seem to think that all current SGs only require the support of ONE full time member of GW staff.

So GW PLC, is NOT interested in gamers.Just Hobbiests that will buy build and paint lots of thier models.

I long for the return of the true GAMES WORKSHOP.When the developers are allowed to develop the actual games,not be told how to market the next release of models.


TTFN
Lanrak.

Better change that to One Part Time of GW staff as Andy definitely doesnt work full time on Specialist Games, he is all the time workning on 40K crap/ White Dwarf stuff instead of SGs.

Adept
01-04-2007, 07:03
its all good and well that you prefer to order online, but what about us saps who choose to not have a credit card, we can really only buy our stuff in store.

Thats more a consequence of you choosing not to own a credit card than GW being evil.

Seriously, why not get a credit card? There are many low-limit, interest free period cards available.

On topic, I would love to see the specialist games promoted more, so that more people would play them and I could have more opponents!

Easy E
01-04-2007, 07:55
BB seems to be the only one that has sustained itself with a Fanbase despite the lack of support. Their are still BB leagues in my area, and I'm in a GW free zone in the US. WFB doesn't seem to keep the same fan support in this area that BB does. Odd.

The game is afoot
01-04-2007, 11:27
Thats more a consequence of you choosing not to own a credit card than GW being evil.

GW is not evil and nobody is saying they are... GW are a company that must feed very hungry commercial shareholders who have jumped on board because of the success of the LotR period and now GW are hamstrung by them, because they are not making anywhere near the returns that they were during the 'film period'. This means customer unfriendly decisions based on profit targets, but it doesn't make them an evil entity.


Seriously, why not get a credit card? There are many low-limit, interest free period cards available.

@Reflex, you don't have to get a credit card, if you choose to sign up to Paypal on eBay then you can use your regular bank account to make purchases and bget the product at 50% or even less than that from retail GW prices.
eBay also gives you the opportunity to use your cheque book and postal orders should you wish to do so.

Hena
01-04-2007, 13:12
I perfectly understand that indie stockists don't carry specialists games; the games sell very little compared to Warhammers and LotR and once you buy a batch from GW you can't return them (at least for the same value).

Here I'll step in. The problem isn't that the independents wouldn't carry Specialist Games. It's that GW will not allow them to do so. At least that's the case in here with one indendent chain (that they commented is the biggest independent buying stuff from UK office).

So GWs strategy to SG is to deny playing them. Deny selling them in store or at independent (at least in here). And having one part time person managing 7 games.

But despite this, I've still managed to hold Epic: Armageddon tournaments with >10 people in here :).

IronSailor
01-04-2007, 13:33
I don't understand why they don't make a load of new sprues in Necromunda for all the gangs and market it well. With a wide range of gangs, a few detalied blisters, and lots of terrain options I think it would do pretty well - maybe not as big a money spinner as the traditional games but successful nonetheless.

I also think a Necromunda tournament is also a lot more interesting than the standard 40k or fantasy. Seeing a gang evolve, losing your best character, creating a monster out of a juve... Just far more fun than lining up with the same army each time.

Steve54
01-04-2007, 13:35
following on from Hena's post in the Uk there is a solid tournament scene -

Full Scale Assault (1 day) Mansfield February
Open War (1 day) Nottingham March
WPS Club Chalenge (2 day) Notingham May
Games Workshop GT(2 day) Nottingham May
Open War (1 day) Nottingham September
Mansfield GT (2 day) Mansfield November

These are all good tournaments and always attract 10-20 players

lanrak
01-04-2007, 14:03
Hi all.
Folowing on from Henas post.
SG are still popular and mainly survive due to the support of dedicated gamers who apreciate the great games made in years gone by.
I wonder if 40k would get so much fan loyalty ,years after it went OOP.
Or would the gamers simply use the much better alternative rule sets avialable?

GW probably want to 'Bury' Specialist Games as they feel they might be a distraction from the cash cows,er I mean core games.
Most of the SGs dont need 'large' amounts of models to play them.
(Sell More Models PLC, take a dim view of this.)

This was probably the reason GW pulled all 'official 'support in the first place.

But failed to realise good games promote more interest in the gaming community than 'Hype driven marketing.'

'Well it has cool fluff and models but the gameplay is not to good.'.
Is quite a common grevance with 40k in particular,among the gamers who have been exposed to alternative games systems.

So if you want to spend a lot of money on collecting and pianting nice models.GW is the company for you!
But if you want to spend most of your hobby time playing good wargames,then GW PLC is not the best place to go.

GW are more for 'hobbiests',than actual gamers nowadays.IMO.

Andy is now only part time,ye gods its worse than I thought!!!

TTFN
Lanrak.

inq.serge
01-04-2007, 14:28
=][=nquisitor

dancingmonkey
01-04-2007, 19:12
Just played a game of necro wiht my buddies including a female friend who is being exposed to all things gaming. (I know, its a shocking thought that girls might play wit htoy soldiers too, but it dies happen folks)

We had a ball, with Dave's posse of evil nazis running off the board without firing a shot, before my cawdor loonies were gunned down at close range by Joelle's escher gals.

Brought back memories of the mad campaign from GW Maidstone we ran last year. It ended with 50 gangers fleeing past an Imperial guard paltoon keen to gun them down, such fun.

Seriously, play necro if you haven't it really does rock!