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Gutlord Grom
02-04-2007, 02:47
Okay, they're have been alot of complaints about Space Marine Veteran Sergeants with powerfits generally ruining days. It's miserable, and doesn't seem entirely balanced or fair.

The power fist for two wound characters costs 25 points, while a one wound power fist costs 15 points. This is shown in the Space Marine Wargear section.The ork power klaw costs 25 points, for all models it is available to.

The basic wargear user in the ork army has two wounds. So by Codex Space Marines, the power klaw is something that can be considered pointwise, an equal of the powerfist for Space Marine characters.

A Space Veteran sergeant costs 45 points with powerfist and no other upgrades. The basic ork nob with powerklaw and no other upgrades costs 45 points with no upgrades. Remember the ork nob has a higher WS.

So for about the same cost, the orks get a two wound character with two wounds and higher weapon skill while using that powerfist. Space Marines get a regular Marine plus one attack and a powerfist.

Warlord Kyle
02-04-2007, 02:55
first of all, compare the armour, inititive, leadership etc. before complaining

Gutlord Grom
02-04-2007, 03:04
Armor- You [probably can't kill enough orks for this to be serious problem in a large boy squad. Space Marines while having good armor are more limited in numbers and will drop under concentrated fire.
Intiative: Orks can Waagh. I know this doesn't affect powerfists, but orks strike at the same time as a large Marine squad if armed with Choppas, so the Space Marine Sergeant with powerfist will die much faster.
Leadership: Orks have mob size checks, which generally removes any formof morale over 12 models.
Toughness: Have the same toughness
BS: Admittedly, Marines have better Ballistic skill, and orks have crappy BS.
Transport: Space Marine transports mantain an edge over Trukks, but can still be killed by a trukks basic weapon and vice versa.
Attacks: Orks have twqo attacks without charging or slugga and choppa or slugga and powerklaw and so on and so forth. On thhe charge, orks have four, and in maintained combat, have three. Space Marines have one base attack and two on the charge.

Thommy H
02-04-2007, 03:05
You can't just compare points costs across army lists like that - everything is balanced in realtion to the other options in their Codex as well as against other armies.

A good example: compare the cost of the Broodlord in Codex: Tyranids to a Chaos Lord from C:CSM with an almost identical statline and abilities (for which you would require Stature, Rune, Infiltrators veteran skill, a Mark to ensure Fearlessness and Talons for Rending)...

Dragonreaver
02-04-2007, 03:05
Exactly. Also compare the tactics of the two armies.

So for about the same cost, the orks get a two wound character with higher weapon skill while using a powerfist, but who's essentially useless when he can't use it.

Space Marines get a regular Marine plus one attack and a powerfist, but won't die if hit by a peashooter, and is actually still useful when not in combat.

You just can't compare points costs from different armies like that. It doesn't work that way. The power fist on a Space Marine is a neat little trick he can use if his squad gets into hand-to-hand combat.

The power klaw on an Ork is his life and soul, and everything he lives for :p

==Me==
02-04-2007, 04:01
:eek:

It all makes sense now, Orks are overpowered:rolleyes:

Comparing costs across Codeces really isn't going to get you anywhere, especially something as insignificant as a single weapon. Orks get powerfists on 2 wound characters for the same cost as a one wound marine character because Orks don't have...

Assault Cannons, Land Speeders, Dreadnoughts, Librarians, Chaplains, Rites of Battle, Rhinos, 3+ Saves, BS4, Scouts, Vindicators, Land Raiders, Rhinos, Devastators, Plasma Cannons, Lascannons, Attack Bikes, Predators, Traits, Drop Pods, and so on.

cailus
02-04-2007, 06:01
Remember the ork nob has a higher WS.

This is totally wrong.

Ork Nobs have WS4 which is the same as a Veteran Sergeant.

Even Ork Independent Characters such as Big Meks have WS4. The only model with higher WS is the Warboss.

A Space Marine has a greater chance of using their powerfist than an Ork.

First of all the Marines have a 3+ save, the Ork has a 6+. Most Orks are footsloggers while Marines have the option of being mounted in Rhinos or Drop Pods which improve survivability.

The Marine meatshield with their 3+ save, I4 is much better than the Orky meatshield who have a 6+ save and I2.

The Marines can sit back and pepper the Orks with bolter fire which is murderous against Orks.

Given this lack of survivability, it is more difficult for the Ork player to get a meaningful charge. By meaningful I mean having enough Orks to be assured of passing Waagh tests (assumes 16-20 Orks a mob).

Orks also only have S3 which means that most of their attacks will not be doing any damage against T4 units. In fact I have personally often had 52 attacks bounce off Marines because I was unable to roll 5's to wound.

don_mondo
02-04-2007, 11:50
You can't just compare points costs across army lists like that - everything is balanced in realtion to the other options in their Codex as well as against other armies.

A good example: compare the cost of the Broodlord in Codex: Tyranids to a Chaos Lord from C:CSM with an almost identical statline and abilities (for which you would require Stature, Rune, Infiltrators veteran skill, a Mark to ensure Fearlessness and Talons for Rending)...

Course, IIRC, a Broodlord isn't Fearless, he just automatically passes LD tests due to Synapse, right? So something that causes fallback without resorting to a test WILL work against him.

BloodiedSword
02-04-2007, 13:00
The Broodlord isn't such a great model to compare as his key balancing feature is that he requires a retinue of Genestealers, which counterbalances what looks like an unusually low points cost and makes it ok.

A better false comparison to make would be between the Hive Tyrant and a similarly tricked out Daemon Prince.

Thommy H
02-04-2007, 13:42
Course, IIRC, a Broodlord isn't Fearless, he just automatically passes LD tests due to Synapse, right? So something that causes fallback without resorting to a test WILL work against him.

Possibly - actually a better way to simulate a Broodlord (or Hive Tyrant) with a Chaos Space Marine would be to use the Demagogue ability now that I think about it since that confers the ability to automatically pass morale tests to models within 12" (or is it 6"?). Anyway, the point is that the Chaos Lord with the same abilities and statline is something ridiculous like double the cost, maybe even more.

As I said, comparing costs across Codecies doesn't work, because all models exist in relation to the others in their army list. So, for instance, an Invulnerable Save is comparatively cheap for CSM but disproportionatley expensive for Tyranids who don't have an easy way to get one. On the other hand, that WS 6 Broodlord is pretty cheap for Tyranids, since high WS is the norm rather than the exception as it is in most other armies.