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LanceB
02-04-2007, 16:19
(Apologies if has been covered ad infinitum but my search couldn't find it)

If you win the throw, going first seems a fairly obvious choice. I expect there are solid reasons to go second though, depending on deployment and opponent etc.

But does anyone also experience that relieved sensation when you eventually take your sixth turn and (assuming you haven't been wiped out) it almost feels like a 'free go' as you no longer have to fret about enemy charges etc. And it feels quite easy to leg it for a table quarter and so on.

So, going second - it's cool. Any thoughts?

Agoz
02-04-2007, 16:25
In my opinion there should never be a reason to go second.. ever, after all, just because you have a turn, doesn't mean you need to move forward or move at all, if you want you can just take a few shots at your opponent.

TheWarSmith
02-04-2007, 16:31
going last/second gives you the option of positioning/panicking enemy with no time for the enemy to react. You can zip your fast cav back to a corner to contest/claim it, or whatever, and if you panic your enemy's troops, he'll have no turn to recover.

It's nasty in games where you count VP and board quarters/etc.

Agoz
02-04-2007, 16:36
yes it does allow you to do that, but if you really think about it, what difference does it make if you do that on your second turn after your opponent makes their first move, after all, if you dont move in your first turn (assuming you go first) you are in the same position as you would be if you hadn't had the first turn at all (except that your opponent now has a few shooting casualties).

Edit: oh my mistake, you meant having the last turn of the game, well that could make a difference I suppose... unless your opponent does the same first...

Xavier
02-04-2007, 16:37
In friendly's I go first, In tournaments I always go second, just for the crucial last turn and victory points... and assuming I win the dice roll to decide. :p

Incidently, against a gun line I would go first... if possible. :p

Gorbad Ironclaw
02-04-2007, 16:46
In my opinion there should never be a reason to go second.. ever, after all, just because you have a turn, doesn't mean you need to move forward or move at all, if you want you can just take a few shots at your opponent.


Except since most basic missile weapons can only shoot 24" you will be out of range with most of your shooting, so either unable to shoot completly, or will have to move so hitting with less.

But by all means, if you don't want to go second, don't.

But depending on the scenario etc it can be golden. Especially remember a game against a Cult of Slaanesh army where I had a small lead, right up until his turn 6(he were going second) where he piled in and claimed the capture objective with no chance of me getting it back.

So I ended up losing that game.

Corai
02-04-2007, 16:46
For me it depends on the amount of shooting my opponent has. usually I like to give up the first turn and have them advance a bit and get into my 'danger range' I wouldn't do this against a magic heavy/shooting heavy/fast movement heavy (flyers fast cav etc) army as it gives them an advantage.

Thanks
Corai

the1stpip
02-04-2007, 16:58
It does depend on the mission as well, as noted. In a capture, take and hold or whatever, it pays to have the last turn...

Adept
02-04-2007, 17:01
In my opinion there should never be a reason to go second.. ever, after all, just because you have a turn, doesn't mean you need to move forward or move at all, if you want you can just take a few shots at your opponent.

Going second gives you the last turn of the game.

In the last turn, you can play differently than in any other turn, as you do not have to worry about how your opponent will react, and in addition any units you panic count as being destroyed, since they have no chance to recover.

EvC
02-04-2007, 17:11
It is a great relief to go second, indeed! You can move things in ways you'd never do normally, perform riskier moves, and your opponent will hav to be weary of such things. You can charge characters out of units for example, knowing that no-one else will get a counter charge or shooting attacks in their turn.

LanceB
02-04-2007, 17:42
Going second sounds the best bet in a VPs game to me then. I'm still a pretty weak player but if I can hold my nerve and bank on not being wiped out by turn 5 (particularly gun line) then it sounds like a decent advantage overall.

Hadn't noticed that you even get VPs for fleeing units, if there are any weedy support units still around might be easy prey...

Wonder if there has ever been any stats complied on the subject at GTs?

ZeroTwentythree
02-04-2007, 19:17
It's really a case by case thing. The player going first gets a chance to neutralize enemy units/characters/etc. before they have a chance to do any damage.

I've had one or two well placed artillery shots remove large portions of my army before I even get a turn (kill most of one unit, panic it, as it runs it panics other units, for example.)

LanceB
02-04-2007, 19:43
Yes, in battle at weekend I managed to kill a mage first turn which obviously helped me on the magic side big time. It was poor deployment by opponent, I guess going first you can take advantage of any deployment slip-ups.

superduperkoopatrooper
02-04-2007, 19:51
All these points about advantages in the last turn are of no benefit if the game is as good as over by then. I'd only choose to go second if the given situation offered no advantage in going first.

Hywel
03-04-2007, 00:04
I much prefer to go second and get the last actions of the game.

The enemy effectively can't flee from charges, panic/terror become devastating and you have a turns worth of movement to capture or contest table quarters.
Furthermore you get a chance to rally troops and deny your enemy VPs. They cannot react to this.

With good deployment, going second has far fewer negatives than it has positives - even against gunlines.

Tanith Ghost
03-04-2007, 02:56
I vouch for going second. It gives you the ability to counter your foe move for move, and take those critical last actions to swipe an empty table quarter or get that last panic to get a few extra vps.

TheWarSmith
03-04-2007, 03:10
As a beastmen player, i will almost always take the first turn if possible, because it deprives my opponent of a VERY valuable turn that he could kill my general(it's happened way too many times) before sounding the horn.

laughingman
03-04-2007, 04:57
I agree, first is most of the time more advantageous, just like chess, the person who goes first is already winning.

Hawkmoon
03-04-2007, 08:36
I think it really depends on a lot of factors. What kind of army you or your opponent is fielding being the most important. Other things like scenarios or terrain can also play a big role. That being said I think the tactical advantage of going first of second are pretty close to being even.

At least it's not like 40k where going first is king and first turn maulings are much more common.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
03-04-2007, 09:18
Well against gunlines I go first and against other armies I go most of the time second because the last turn is more usefull then having the first one.

Greetz
G

Scythe
03-04-2007, 11:02
It depends a lot on the amount of artillery both I and my opponent will be fielding, were having the first turn can make quite a difference. Example from a recent game: my dark elf warriors get hit by a stone thrower in the first turn, panic, and promptly flee completely of table since they hadn't moved foreward yet.
But generally, I don't mind going second, or taking the second turn myself. I always deploy like I get the second turn, so damage is usually minimal. And at the end of the game, it pays itself back in grabbing objectives and charging without fear of countercharges.


At least it's not like 40k where going first is king and first turn maulings are much more common.

I would argue that. 40K is a lot more objective driven as fantasy; making last turn objective capturing a lot more important. Also, line of fires on a decent cover filled 40K table will be limited (especially on a cityfight table), and there are things like concealment, escalation, alpha missions and deep strike to take into account. The first turn in 40K only wins you games if you play on an empty table.

Archaon
03-04-2007, 12:49
I lost quite a few games when my opponent had the last turn.. sometimes even losing the general by a last ditch "hail mary" attack because the opponent stands more to gain than to lose.

As has been already said it depends.. if i go shooter heavy with my Dark Elves, i.e. 4 Bolt Throwers and 3 Dark Rider units in 2000 points games and i have some juicy targets i go for the first round usually.

The boyz
03-04-2007, 16:36
I agree with what most people have stated. If I am playing with my Dwarfs who have a fairly large amount of firepower, If I roll highest and get to choose, then I will generally choose to go first.

If I am playing my Skaven army, then I might opt to go second. But if I am playing against an army that has lots of ranged firepower, then I will choose to go first and try to close the gap with my enemy as quickly as possible.

MarcoPollo
03-04-2007, 20:04
I will choose to go second only if I think the game will be protracted and there is nothing I can gain from being first. Usually, I would like to sieze the initiative and go first. Or if I am going against some magic heavy, shooting heavy, armies then first is pretty important.

It makes me wonder, what kind of strategies a bretonian player will think about knowing that he will most likely be going second in every game.

Sanjuro
03-04-2007, 21:56
It makes me wonder, what kind of strategies a bretonian player will think about knowing that he will most likely be going second in every game.

For the glory of the Lady of the Lake, CHAAARGE!

:angel:

Frankly
03-04-2007, 23:42
Depends on what you got in your list and what your facing, most the time I prefer to go first to set myself up and see how the opponent reacts.

But there are alot of times when you really want to see how your opponent will play after his deployment and going second can be a relief on the nerves.


I think that having the last turn isn't as big as it is in 40k, where its pretty huge in some games. But it can make a difference.

The cool thing about WHFB is that you can go to a tournament and have to react to so many different types of armylists, that questions like this can vary from one game to the next.