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Stella Cadente
03-04-2007, 20:57
well last week on Sunday I had a game of 2000pts against some guy who had 1000pts of Grey knights, and 1000pts of Tyranids, we really wanted a 2000pts game so I ALLOWED him to use both since it was just for fun, but I trusted they were legal armies non the less

Here was my list (I was actually just less than 2000pts)

++HQ++

Azrael (standard Equipment)
=225pts

+Elites+

5xDeathwing Terminators
2xThunder hammer & Storm Shield
2xLightning claw pairs
Assault cannon & power fist
=245pts

Mortis Dreadnought
2xTwin Linked Lascannons
Extra Armour
=180pts

10xScouts (standard equipment, 4xbolters, SGT shotgun)
5xSniper Rifles
=170pts

+Troops+

10 Marines (Standard Equipment)
SGT Power Fist
Plasma Gun
=205pts

10 Marines (Standard Equipment)
SGT Power Fist
Plasma Gun
=205pts

10 Marines (Standard Equipment)
SGT Power Fist
Plasma Gun
=205pts

+Heavy Support+

10 Marines (Standard Equipment)
SGT Plasma Pistol
2xHeavy Bolters (combat squad 1)
2xLascannons (combat squad 2)
=280pts

Predator (standard Equipment)
Twin-Linked Lascannons
Sponson Heavy Bolters
Extra armour
Dozer Blade
=150pts

Whirlwind (standard Equipment)
=85pts

and his list (not sure on wargear)

Grey Knights 1000pts...........yeah right you believe that you'll believe anything

++HQ++

Grand Master

Inquisitor lord
Acolyte (plasma pistol)
Warrior (Multi melta)
Familiar

+Elites+

4 Grey knight terminators (Incinerator)
Brother captain

Vindicare assassin

+Troops+

5 grey knights
Incinerator

5 grey knights
Incinerator

5 stormtroopers
Veteran

5 storm troopers
Veteran
Flamer
Grenade launcher
Rhino

+Heavy support+

Land raider

Lance strike

Dreadnought
Twin Linked lascannon

Now I realised AFTER the game his list was WAAAAAAAY over 1000pts, summit like 1500pts in reality, and thats before the Tyranids

Tyranids 1000pts...whatever

++HQ++

Broodlord
Maxed out
8 Genestealers
Maxed out (he claims they were 300pts each round about)

+Troops+

8 Genestealers
Maxed out (he claims they were 300pts each round about)

8 Genestealers
Maxed out (he claims they were 300pts each round about)

Anyway yeah thats about 1100pts I'd say, so technically it was a 2000pts vs 2600pts game, I should of realized at the start

So in the end I thought he had won by 15pts (technically a draw, but in his favour) BUT in reality I had won by over 600pts, and I never noticed, but on my way home my brain clicked and I suddenly realised "That little ******* cheated me, I'll kill him for this"

so I was wondering, have any of you had this, I would bet yes, but by a whole 600pts...........thats not just an error, thats cheating, and I will confront him before he plays anyone else with his "1000pts" Grey knight army

(tried a search, but for some reason it would not work for me, dunno why)

The Song of Spears
03-04-2007, 21:06
Well, i dunno about the GK, but he was prolly dead on 1000 or just a bit under with what you described for his nids....

I but i very much doubt he was under 1000 for the GK...closer to 1500 i think

ultima_eldar
03-04-2007, 21:10
lol i have had similar occurences :D. one game at at campaign it was 2v2 it was supposed to be me with 1000 points of DA facing off against 1000 pts of space wolves and we would each have a "junior player" who would have 700 pts.

So we ended up playing and the space wolf players junior player puts a rhino on the field plus ten marines, a fully tooled up commander with artificer, iron halo, power claw and storm bolter and last but not least 5 scouts with sniper rifles. It seemed ok so then we start the game and 2nd turn rolls around so he starts rolling reserve rolls and he pulls out a 5 man assualt squad with a plasma pistol and P.fist and then two fully kitted out 5 man squads of terminators! Fortunately we were able to capture the objective and blow it up but i refuse to play against the kid ever again, anyone who even looks at there codex knows thats wayyyy over 1000 pts.

Tenoch
03-04-2007, 21:10
Ultimately if he was cheating it's irrelevant. You didn't play by the rules in combining two armies not meant to be combined, thus making the game fairly meaningless. Why didn't you just play a 1000pt game?

Drasriath
03-04-2007, 21:19
I've played with a guy like that. Took 1300 points of Black Templars (Not counting wargear) in a 1000 point game.

Also had another guy when this edition first came out trying to use last edition's rules for screening.

Anyway, the best way to deal with cheaters is to not play with them... or what I did to the former guy, where every time I go into the hobby store, I offer to play him, tell him to make an 1,850 point list, then go 'Oh darn, my friends are here, well looks like I gotta play with them now. Too bad.' I've had him write about five lists that way now, and he's still not getting it, though the last time he stormed out of the store in annoyance. :evilgrin:

KaldCB
03-04-2007, 21:50
Anyway, the best way to deal with cheaters is to not play with them... or what I did to the former guy, where every time I go into the hobby store, I offer to play him, tell him to make an 1,850 point list, then go 'Oh darn, my friends are here, well looks like I gotta play with them now. Too bad.' I've had him write about five lists that way now, and he's still not getting it, though the last time he stormed out of the store in annoyance. :evilgrin:

HAHA that is awsome!

StormKnight
03-04-2007, 22:06
Ultimately if he was cheating it's irrelevant. You didn't play by the rules in combining two armies not meant to be combined, thus making the game fairly meaningless.

This is kind of nonsensical. The players agreed to play a 2000 point game, and agreed that player B could combine those two armies. Player B violated that agreement; he cheated (whether intentionally or through incompetence...and assuming that the GK force actually was over 1000 points).

If you agree to a play a game where a force can only have 1 heavy support choice (perhaps a scenario where the armies are light scout forces which wouldn't have much heavy support along), and you bring 3 heavy support, you are cheating in that scenario even if it would be perfectly legal in a normal game.

Overlord Krycis
03-04-2007, 22:26
First off...I would like to say people who deliberately cheat to win are bad people and should be poked with the whippy measure sticks repeatedly... :D

I have actually done the reverse...was playing a 1000pts-a-side game when I first started 40k and ended up fielding closer to 1200pts!
It wasn't deliberate, but after the game (I lost btw :rolleyes: ) I realised what I had done and told my opponent.
He was great about it and even agreed to a re-match so I could see how I would fare...lost again :p ...but the point is, not everyone does something like this out of maliciousness, sometimes it's just a lapse of concentration (or in my case, intelligence...:D ).

Stingray_tm
03-04-2007, 22:36
I seriously doubt, that this Nid list was even close to 1000 points. If he took the usual stealer build (extended carapace), than his list would be at about 600 points.

Maybe he was playing 1400 points GK and 600 points Tyranids?

Warwolt the skaven
03-04-2007, 22:36
Ultimately if he was cheating it's irrelevant. You didn't play by the rules in combining two armies not meant to be combined, thus making the game fairly meaningless. Why didn't you just play a 1000pt game?

Jerk of dude, the point was that they WANTED a 2000pts so he allowed him to play 1k+1k. Why didn't they play 1k? Because they think 2000pts is funnier mebbe? The topic of this thread was wheter the opponents list was at all 1000+1000pts or not. Not about wheter you should play like that or not. People like you, who don't think people should think outside the box, should get out and play more instead of jerking around in peoples thread. T-T

Stella Cadente
03-04-2007, 22:37
well I guess in the end I won anyway, I killed at least 600pts more than him, the DA's really earned there keep, in the first turn most of his anti-tank firepower was gone.

Predator knocked lascannon off his dread, Mortis killed his Land raider, Devvies knocked his rhino up a little, next turn his dread dies from mine haha (in fact the Mortis Killed a land raider, a dreadnought, a broodlord, a grand master, an inquisitor Lord and various other stuff, so alone he killed about 600-700pts WOW) I guess cheaters never prosper


I seriously doubt, that this Nid list was even close to 1000 points. If he took the usual stealer build (extended carapace), than his list would be at about 600 points.

Maybe he was playing 1400 points GK and 600 points Tyranids?

No his stealers as I said had EVERYTHING even a kitchen sink, he stated quite proudly they costed around 300pts each, so 3 units of em is 900pts alone if he was right, same for his Broodlord he must of cost over 100pts alone, maybe 150pts, and his knights had a few things, I can't remember every little item, but it was enough

Stingray_tm
03-04-2007, 22:42
No his stealers as I said had EVERYTHING even a kitchen sink, he stated quite proudly they costed around 300pts each, so 3 units of em is 900pts alone if he was right, same for his Broodlord he must of cost over 100pts alone, maybe 150pts, and his knights had a few things, I can't remember every little item, but it was enough

Than he is not only a cheater but also an idiot who deserves to get his extremely overcosted 40 points Genestealers shot to pieces ;)

thewizard99
03-04-2007, 22:52
ever happened to someone where they get 4 consequtive 6 2+ saves each with 6 on the dice, and then when rolling for attack for his 'fix he hit and wounds every single attack he has? guess how he did it, using the same 5 dice that was waighed down so 6 always came up!

Lyinar
03-04-2007, 22:59
I've seen Howling Banshees get their save against a Callidus Assassin because the guy with the Eldar thought they had Invulnerable Saves and the guy with the Grey Knights thought the Callidus Assassin only had a Power Weapon and even when he looked up the Poison Blades ability, he didn't notice the whole "C'tan Phase Sword: No saves of any kind allowed" bit.

The Song of Spears
03-04-2007, 23:22
Than he is not only a cheater but also an idiot who deserves to get his extremely overcosted 40 points Genestealers shot to pieces ;)

Yeah my guess is there was no 'cheating' involved, just a bad case of the stupids :P

I am eternally grateful that our game store bought a computer and put it in the warhammer room with Army Builder on it, much fewer mistakes now ;)

505
04-04-2007, 02:49
I played a guy who after I crushed him (one of the few times) he looks at his list..."oops I forgot my land raider" I looked at his list and we both laughed.

Lancaster
04-04-2007, 06:05
In a 1000 pt game with my necrons my friend took about 1600 pts of Ultramarines....

In his defence he thought I said 1500 pts when he asked how much I wanna play, and after the game he was like OMG I forgot to calculate the cost of my upgrades on my commander and my dreads...

So, he calculates it all up, and he says, I'm sorry I was just under 100 points over, I'm almost at 1600

I was like... :|

that's 600 pts over...

We still joke about it today

IncrediSteve
04-04-2007, 06:30
Back in the glory days of 3rd Edition where it was just me an a friend with no store closer than 2 hours' drive away, and we were learning the rules piecemeal yet playing nonstop just because it was so dang fun [especially with out mix n' match understandings of the rules].

No concept of points whatsoever amidst those jumbled ideas, so our typical game was 5-10 marines and a landspeeder [and/or a Leman Russ Exterminator on occasion] vs 7 Dark Eldar Warriors and a single Jetbike.

The Dark Eldar actually did win once, as we didn't understand AP yet, and somehow decided that every spike on a certain Dark Eldar figure counted as an extra attack :angel:



...yeah, that has nothing to do with getting cheated by some scad, but it did relate to gross point injustices and was quite nostalgic for me to tell, so pah!

Leonidas300
04-04-2007, 06:45
Is it rude to ask your opponent if you could have a look at his list? Or to say that he may have made a mistake calculating the point costs of his list because it looks too big?

It just seems like every time I talk to the guys at the game store whenever someone doesn't roll leadership or thinks some rule still exists from a previous edition of the game or forgets to apply some rule it's cheating. The rules are somewhat cumbersome and sometimes it takes two to get it all right. So much talk of cheating hurts the hobby.

I understand sometimes people really cheat (like that wieghted dice thing, why even bother playing?) but not everyone knows all of the rules, some forget, and others just make mistakes, and that not cheating.

AngryAngel
04-04-2007, 07:20
Yeah I've been there. I think the harshest I've seen is about 1500 pts over. The best way to be sure the magical lists don't appear I've found is keep the games smaller. If ya take the time to memorize some of the costs for much used armies. You'll spot pretty easily any gross amounts of points cheating.

Though no I wouldn't accuse someone of cheating for forgetting a rule or the like. I'd just kindly let them know what it is or if it doesn't or does still effect them. There are alot of rather confussing rules for 40k that change from edition to edition. I don't know anyone who doesn't mess up on anything regarding them ever.

ReclecteR
04-04-2007, 08:19
Hey, to the OP, yeah, the GK's were over, but the Nids guy was just under, if what you say he had given the stealers is right.
1 Broodlord and 8 stealers
2 units of 8 stealers.

So, I went to Armybuilder and did it all up.
With the MOST EXPENSIVE and all of teh upgrades he can get, then his list still comes in at 973 points. So even if he gave all of the stealers as many upgrades (and the most expensive ones, and some upgrades dont allow you to take other's) as possible some even being redundant, like xtra initiative on a Broodlord, then he was still under.
So at least let the Nid guy go :D .

I'll check the GK one in a minute.

EDIT:
Just checked the GK one.
If he has everything that you listed, then his list comes in at 1589. So, lets just hope that
a) he misheard you and thought you said 1500, hen accidentally went over
b) is a newbie and didnt know how to tally up the points right

So, that means altogether it was 2000 points versus 2562. And that's if the genestealer guy really gave them all that junk. Im not discounting your word, just failing to understand why someone would do that. Meh. But, I think the stealer list (I hope) was more like 600 points. I mean, you cant do anything about it now. Just remember what happened and if you are really annoyed, dont play the GK guy again, but the Nid guy was fine. And dont go in and accude him of cheating, in case he produces evidence that makes you look like a fool ;) And cause it's probably going to make people in your club discredit you. So do everyone a favour, and just let it slip. I mean, you were good enough to beat that list anyway, so let it stay a moral victory.

Ravenous
04-04-2007, 08:32
It doesnt sound like he purposefully cheated.

If he was taking 36pt (the max) genestealers then that just makes him plain dumb.

I figured out the points and it was arond 1200 for the GKs and the stealers are well over that.

The best thing I heard in relation to this was at Conflict Vancouver where this Eldar guy Massarced his opponents every game until his last. The Tourny was 1700 and he gave his opponents a Photoshopped army list to look like he was paying alot less. It all came crashing down when someone walked by his table and said "Wow thats alot of eldar for 1700pts" and asked for his list. He refused in a huff, so his opponent at the time handed the guy who asked his copy that was given to him by the Cheater.

They got about half way through his list and stopped because they were already at 2400pts. They figure if they kept going he would have been well into the 3000 range.

BloodiedSword
04-04-2007, 08:37
I really don't get this. I don't understand at all why you are angry that he's over the limit.

If you'd just gone home, called it a draw (which it was) and never found out that he went over, would you still have been angry? I doubt it.

At the end of the day, if it was fun and you both had a good game then who honestly gives a rats ass if he was 50, 100 or hell even 1000 points over the limit? I know it's more fun to win than lose most of the time, but finding out which one it should have been after the game should not affect your enjoyment of that very game in any way whatsoever.

It's not as if you were having a great time, but now you've found out he cheated you suddenly decide that you actually had a horrible time... is it?

paddyalexander
04-04-2007, 10:29
The way I see it when someone cheats they not only waste the time of the person they're playing but they're own.

Was this person a new player or new to the army list? It could have been a mistake.

The most blatent form of cheating I've come across was done to a friend of mine who was just new to the game was having a 1000point game against a "store veteran"(thats what he kept calling himself). I was keeping an eye on the game so I could give him some pointers & advice afterwards, but he was having a good 2 opening turns and doing everything right combined with luck ment that he was winning. It was then that the "vet" said to my friend "Oh, I forgot Dark Angles..." (Old Codex) "...get 3 re-rolls per turn". At which point I burst out luaghing. To his credit he tried argueing with me about it!!!! I mearly produced a copy of the codex & asked that he show my friend exactly where it says this at which point he made his excuses & left.

Another friend of mine convienently forgets to deploy certain key units untill his opponent is fully deployed. We had to implement a house rule in our group that if you forget to deploy something then it counts as destroyed.

Overlord Krycis
04-04-2007, 10:47
Hey, to the OP, yeah, the GK's were over, but the Nids guy was just under, if what you say he had given the stealers is right...

Just to point this out...it was the same guy, not 2 separate guys.
The OP allowed him to use a 1000pts Grey Knights force AND a 1000pts Nid force so that they could have a 2000pts a side game.

ReclecteR
04-04-2007, 10:55
Oh, well, er, then I suppose the nid guy was 'impure' after all. Ironic, considering he plays DH...

Axel
04-04-2007, 14:43
ever happened to someone where they get 4 consequtive 6 2+ saves each with 6 on the dice, and then when rolling for attack for his 'fix he hit and wounds every single attack he has? guess how he did it, using the same 5 dice that was waighed down so 6 always came up!

Mark these dices and force him to use them for his own morale checks (all of them, from then on). If he disagrees, leave.

K0tka
04-04-2007, 14:54
Yup, I have exp from that kind of players.... once I played 1000pts game aginst tau....well he had 1750pts army, but I won him slightly (draw), then that same guy played aginst me while a go, he had 4 heavy support choices.

don_mondo
04-04-2007, 15:30
I like to do it the other way around. I've shown up at several local 2000 pt tourneys with an 1850 list, just for the fun of it. Had one store put in a rule that you couldn't be more than 50 points under just for me. I guess they got tired of me showing up with 1850 and winning............
Little tougher now that the US GT points have gone to 1750, but so far my 1750 GT test list is 2-0 against 2000 point armies. Oddly, I've lost several times to other 1750 lists............. Go figure.

Zedric
04-04-2007, 16:12
Re: Weighted Dice
Mark these dices and force him to use them for his own morale checks (all of them, from then on). If he disagrees, leave.
Nice. :evilgrin:

Cill
04-04-2007, 17:00
I myself have done the complete opposite. First three games I played with my Nids were supposed to be 1500. However I miscalculated and only played with 1250 :P
Managed to draw one though :P

Marshal Augustine
04-04-2007, 17:30
oh well, what can be done. Except shake your head. And go prepared next time!... no point in making a scene. Although if you see it happen again you can inquire to see the army list.. :d

Askari
04-04-2007, 18:17
I remember playing a game against my cousin who used weighted dice, funnily enough though, since we were playing LotR, it didn't matter how many 6s he got, if I also got a 6, my High Elves were still going to dish him a world of hurt.

That LotR [don't know if it's the same anymore, I take that it is] is possibly the only game ever where you can beat someone who's using weighted dice...

cybertron2000uk
04-04-2007, 18:27
grief! as this hobby isnt sad as it is....lol

you get the people who cheat...thats so low its funny...lol

me.. I would be to lazy to cheat....complete waste of time...

caven
04-04-2007, 18:36
Simple way to prevent this, ask to look at his army list, because its not fantasy, you can see all his special stuff and what not. Don't let him just say that he "knows" what he has in his 1000 pt army in his head.

ive faced a many people who think they "know" that they have the right points, if i think otherwise, ill ask a GW employee(if im at GW) for his oppinion.

might seem a bit harsh, but if it was a mistake, it stops them from making it again!

Lord Balian
04-04-2007, 19:00
Can't say I've ever noticed anyone doing that to me, so at least if they were it was not so many points to notice. It was just a friendly game, so I wouldn't have the attitude of "I'm gunna kill him." but rather, "dang I pulled off a draw when I was at a 500+ disadvantage." Then go tell him you think his list is way over points and offer to look at it with him. I find it a bit hard to believe that many points of GK was a case of newbee ignorance.

And I'll bet money the GK were way over. I just played a 1000 pt tourny the other weekend and one of my opponents was GK. He had a Brother captain with a squad of termies, and three GK squads with lots of psycannons all over. That's it, that's all he had for 1000 points, and I thought it was a lot. So your opponent had way to much.

Leftenant Gashrog
04-04-2007, 19:04
Ultimately if he was cheating it's irrelevant. You didn't play by the rules in combining two armies not meant to be combined, thus making the game fairly meaningless.

um, have i missed something? where in the RAW does it say what armies can or cannot be fielded alongaside eachother using different Force Organisation Charts?

Lyinar
04-04-2007, 19:22
Simple way to prevent this, ask to look at his army list, because its not fantasy, you can see all his special stuff and what not. Don't let him just say that he "knows" what he has in his 1000 pt army in his head.

ive faced a many people who think they "know" that they have the right points, if i think otherwise, ill ask a GW employee(if im at GW) for his oppinion.

might seem a bit harsh, but if it was a mistake, it stops them from making it again!

In my first game ever, I thought I "knew" what I had in my 1500 point list for my Black Templars, and ended up starting the game without my Assault Terminators on the field (thankfully my opponent allowed me to roll for reserves with them), and I completely forgot to put in my Predator.

And I had my army list done up in Army Builder and the sheet sitting right in front of me, too!

Total n00b mistakes, those.

superknijn
04-04-2007, 19:46
Leftenant Gashrog, it also doesnīt say that you can reroll ones if you threaten the opponent with a knife. If something isnīt mentioned, than it isnīt parts of the rules, and therefore at most a house-rule.

Itīs silly to take more points than youīre allowed; it doesnīt really make you any more popular, does it? I once forgot my Codex and made an army-list from what things i could remember. In the end, overcosted alot of things (mostly weapons options and some wargear), so I ended up with alot less points than the opponent. Foolishly enough, I didnīt notice, and lost. I later found the Codex, and realised how uneven the battle actually was. I donīt really mind; a chllenge is always good, even if you lose it.

(and I forgive my opponent for not recognizing that Iīd overcosted alot; guard weapon options can be quite fickle at times)

daladzor
04-04-2007, 19:58
Its seems that having more points is just pointless and unfair not only are you cheating but you are cheating yourself out of a good game,
in my very first few battles i was using a 400 point army, double battles, so 800 points a force,
our last opponent, whose firend was ill, we said use what you got, ( not knowing he had 1500 points on him )
if army lists are there and incorrect then i have a problem,, but if i know they have more, and dont mind, its worth the challenge,

Stella Cadente
04-04-2007, 20:25
I would like to make clear, I wasn't angry as in furious angry, I was just angry at the fact I said 2000pts and I even allowed him to use 2 armies and still count them as separate so he had 3 HQ's, I allowed all this lee-way for him and he still even after guaranteeing it, played over-pointed, I didn't check the list cus I trusted him (big mistake, never trust humans).

Kahadras
04-04-2007, 21:23
I've never really seen outright cheating before apart from the guy with the magical expanding army. Basicaly I started off playing against a Khorne list with my 1,500 points worth of Raven Guard. Across the table I saw a pretty large army so reasoned that he had only a couple of units in reserve. Boy was I wrong!

At the start of turn two he mutters something about having to make some rolls, chucks a handful of dice at the table and announces that he is DSing his Khorne Terminator squad. So on come the Terminators. Next turn I flank his battleline and he announces that he is inviting possession with his aspiring champion. Bang! Down comes a Bloodthirster and a squad of Bloodletters for good measure.

Next turn he starts deploying another two squads of Bloodletters and that's around the time that I halt proceedings and point out that we're playing a 1,500 point game. He starts making a few excuses along the lines of 'this is my 1,500 point list' upon which I ask for his army list. He doesn't have one. Army book? Forgotten it. I tell him that I'll borrow another players book and work out his army for him. He suddenly back tracks and decides that those two Blood letter squads were in his 2000 point army.

He still had way over 1,500 point on the table at this point though so I just conceeded and walked away. I was quite suprised to see a lot of other people in the club doing the same thing so I assume it was probably widespread. From then on I asked to see army lists before playing anybody. No list, no game.

Kahadras

static grass
04-04-2007, 22:27
From then on I asked to see army lists before playing anybody. No list, no game.

Kahadras

I think asking for the opponents list keeps them honest. I once played a GW staff member and after I charged his isolated force commander with 9 banshees including exarch he said "You do know that he has iron halo don't you"? I said "It's your army mate so no, but now you mention it show me your army list". And he said "oh I don't have one" and so I said "well it isn't even modelled on the mini. So no army list, no iron halo".

Bookwrak
04-04-2007, 23:28
I remember my very first IG game, I meticulously wrote up several different point value of lists, and then forgot them at home when I went to where we were all meeting. That was embarrassing, but my opponent was kind enough to let me guesstimate my way back to 1500 points (all those fiddly bits for guards...)

A time when I accidentally cheated, I was using inches to measure everything, and my oppenent was using cm (in 40K, just for speed, cm measurements are 2x the inch ranges, not 2.5). We finally picked up on the discrepancy on turn 4, and once again, boy was I embarassed.

IronSailor
04-04-2007, 23:41
I remember my very first IG game, I meticulously wrote up several different point value of lists, and then forgot them at home when I went to where we were all meeting. That was embarrassing, but my opponent was kind enough to let me guesstimate my way back to 1500 points (all those fiddly bits for guards...)

A time when I accidentally cheated, I was using inches to measure everything, and my oppenent was using cm (in 40K, just for speed, cm measurements are 2x the inch ranges, not 2.5). We finally picked up on the discrepancy on turn 4, and once again, boy was I embarassed.

An inch is just over 2.5cm... I think you got conned

cailus
05-04-2007, 00:02
Some people do cheat. There's a guy at my club that does it openly and regularly. I oncep layed him in a 600 point game and he took about 800 poitns and also told me that he had some special trait that allowed him Assault Marines as troops - not understanding the traits at the time I thought this was cool.

He has cheated against other people too - models all of a sudden have Iron Halos or Melta bombs when the need arises.

So I refuse to play him and warn other people about him.

At my old club 75% of players used to cheat. Most of them didn't play with completed models so they used to pull all sorts of funnies.

Bookwrak
05-04-2007, 00:07
An inch is just over 2.5cm... I think you got conned

:confused:
Reread the part in parenthesis. Because it's easier for most people to just double than keep track of accumulating halves, you take the inch measurements from the book and multiply them by two. So you move 12cm, rapid-fire 24, etc. However, at the start of the game, due to unclear communication, my opponent was using the cm system, but I was using regular inches. So, he moved 12 cm. I moved 15 cm (6 inches). He rapid-fired 24 cm, I rapid-fired 30 cm. (12 inches). We didn't notice the discrepancy until turn 4, so had a slight advantage in everything I did measurement wise.

don_mondo
05-04-2007, 12:17
Simple way to prevent this, ask to look at his army list, because its not fantasy, you can see all his special stuff and what not. Don't let him just say that he "knows" what he has in his 1000 pt army in his head.

ive faced a many people who think they "know" that they have the right points, if i think otherwise, ill ask a GW employee(if im at GW) for his oppinion.

might seem a bit harsh, but if it was a mistake, it stops them from making it again!

Unfortunately, the Main rulebook disagrees with you (pg 81, IIRC). Lists are 'secret'.

wingedserpant
05-04-2007, 12:42
I've had a strange version of this points over incident. Well, I have having a game and for the first time ever in 40k I was winning-back when I started-and the player seemed to be embarassed at been beating by a noob. We both thought our lists seemed to be oddly sized so we counted up each others lists and we realised mine was well over the 1500pts cost of the game. To make it up to him I remove my terminators and landraider. I lost the game but when I go home I counted up my list about six times and it wasn't over-it was under.

This guy recently is now prone to saying "oh wait this guy who needs it desperately right now has the iron halo not the dead commander who would have been dead sooner if he hadn't used it about 20 times." Well not those exact words but that is what he gets at. I just asked for his list and when he did not have one...

MaliGn
05-04-2007, 15:14
Personally I think that as far as "let's see a copy of your army list" thing goes; as while the details of it can remain secret the simple presence of a pece of paper with the units and points costs written on it would suffice for me. That way if a problem should arise, you can check the list, or better get a neutral third party to check it to ensure that any secret bits and pieces, Daemons etc remain secret.

As for memeory you'd be amazed the amount of times that I completely forget to use certain items of wargear that I give my character (Spiky Bits mainly) so I'm giving myself a disadvantage by NOT actually using them, when I eventually do remember in about turn 6 the game is so nearly over anyway that it's almost not worth bothering with!

Free Spirit
05-04-2007, 15:41
I've never really seen outright cheating before apart from the guy with the magical expanding army. Basicaly I started off playing against a Khorne list with my 1,500 points worth of Raven Guard. Across the table I saw a pretty large army so reasoned that he had only a couple of units in reserve. Boy was I wrong!

At the start of turn two he mutters something about having to make some rolls, chucks a handful of dice at the table and announces that he is DSing his Khorne Terminator squad. So on come the Terminators. Next turn I flank his battleline and he announces that he is inviting possession with his aspiring champion. Bang! Down comes a Bloodthirster and a squad of Bloodletters for good measure.

Kahadras

It sucks when you get cheated when you play fair, even if its intentional or not. How you react from there can change everything, most people just screwed up unintentionally and will gladly take up any offer of help. Im still a newb and i thank all the nice people who assist me with help when i need it. The thing is, these stories make me laugh.

Kahadras, your story in perticular... when your opponnent is fielding things like bloodletters and even a bloodthirster when already having a big army plus termies fielded, you instantly know he is way above the point limit. It's harder to spot when it concerns things like small wargear and upgrades. When you start fielding '24 pts a unit' squads and a bloodthister ( points points points!!! ) it's just ridiculous! Good that you saw it and said something about it! Guess it was pretty obvious for you once he starts fielding all that stuff.

Ross
06-04-2007, 11:14
Hey, I turned up in my town while we had a tiny club going. It was just on the release of the latest rules but i was only familiar with the last one.
At least 10 times I tried to do something only to have it rebuked loudly and publicly, from the point of the 'cheater' I was as embaressed as hell!!
Oh what did I do? Rhino rush, shoot and charge, screen troops, argue over ordenance vs vehicles, coping it in H-H, just the new changes!


Got a question for you though, my regular opponent never brings a list, good mate and all, most of his stuff seems fine, I have similar armies (SM + IG) but would it be rude of me to demand of him his list?

TheBloodWindOfChaos
06-04-2007, 11:23
I got a freind who made up his own chapter called the avian heroes, where all jump packs go 16 inches and all have 2+ saves, all the sargents have 2+ saves, he made tyrannic marines w/ thunder hammers that move 12'' a turn *(thankfully, he's taking them apart, to put the thunderhammers on other cheap things no doubt!), his dreadnaut has a twinlinked lascannon, assault cannon, missile launcher, close combat weapon and heavy flamer, and more outrageous stuff (especially rules!) that are underpaid for! Even more, he has only played for one year and is still undefeated by all us veterans who have been playing longer!

Bookwrak
06-04-2007, 11:29
I don't get it, what's the punch line?

don_mondo
06-04-2007, 12:09
I got a freind who made up his own chapter called the avian heroes, where all jump packs go 16 inches and all have 2+ saves, all the sargents have 2+ saves, he made tyrannic marines w/ thunder hammers that move 12'' a turn *(thankfully, he's taking them apart, to put the thunderhammers on other cheap things no doubt!), his dreadnaut has a twinlinked lascannon, assault cannon, missile launcher, close combat weapon and heavy flamer, and more outrageous stuff (especially rules!) that are underpaid for! Even more, he has only played for one year and is still undefeated by all us veterans who have been playing longer!

Ummm, don't play him.....???? Tell him that you won't accept his mome-brewed chapter and shut him out until he revises it realistically or better yet, starts using a real codex.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
06-04-2007, 12:16
It was just on the release of the latest rules but i was only familiar with the last one.
At least 10 times I tried to do something only to have it rebuked loudly and publicly, from the point of the 'cheater' I was as embaressed as hell!!
Oh what did I do? Rhino rush, shoot and charge, screen troops, argue over ordenance vs vehicles, coping it in H-H, just the new changes!
not trying to sound harsh, but maybe you should have felt embarassed: if you werent ready to play 4th ed properly (because as you admitted you werent familiar with the new rules) maybe you should have asked your opponent to teach you about the changes instead. that way he would have known up front that you werent up to his level rules-wise, and he could have made an informed decision as to whether it was worth his time teaching you and making allowances or whether he would rather play someone else (either while you watched to learn or just spent some quality time with the rulebook).

ive been made to feel really bad in the past when ive beaten someone only to find out after the game that they werent familiar with the new rules, or that it was their first game with an army etc. if i had known up front i could have taught more than fought and we both would have had a better time. dont be ashamed to be honest and up front about what you know, and only play when you are actually ready - even if your opponent decides not to play you yet thats got to be better than what happened to you.


...but would it be rude of me to demand of him his list?
"demand"? yes.
you could ask politely for the full list after the game, and even for a list showing just the information you are entitled to (see p81) up front, but dont demand anything if you dont want to be rude.

~ Tim

Getz
06-04-2007, 12:37
I accidentally played 2000 point game recently with about 2100 points. It was a simple mistake, I hurredly took my stock 1500 point list and quickly added a few extra units to it, but got the costs wrong.

MaliGn
06-04-2007, 22:14
I got a freind who made up his own chapter called the avian heroes, where all jump packs go 16 inches and all have 2+ saves, all the sargents have 2+ saves, he made tyrannic marines w/ thunder hammers that move 12'' a turn *(thankfully, he's taking them apart, to put the thunderhammers on other cheap things no doubt!), his dreadnaut has a twinlinked lascannon, assault cannon, missile launcher, close combat weapon and heavy flamer, and more outrageous stuff (especially rules!) that are underpaid for! Even more, he has only played for one year and is still undefeated by all us veterans who have been playing longer!

you actually play against this army?

shutupSHUTUP!!!
06-04-2007, 22:34
My friend is so infamous locally for his illegal army lists people check his army list every other game he plays. I once played his Imperial Guard with my Blood Angels, halflway through the game he was boasting about how well he was doing with his static gunline set up in bountiful 4+ cover terrain, when I got tired of being polite and demanded to see his army list. Came out to over 600 points over the limit, we have never known anything like it. This man is 22 years old, and these mistakes are far too common to be the accidents he claims. Once he blamed me for not writing his list for him, another time he wanted to change his army list mid-deployment because I informed him of a rule in his own codex which he didn't like the sound of.

I almost have to admire his ability to state a lie with such conviction that he convinces himself that it is true, like a small boy who gets angry at his mother because she does not believe his fib. Basically I stick to playing computer games and the like with him now, because he simply will cheat if given the chance.

Bunnahabhain
06-04-2007, 23:04
I'm not too bad on most of these. I've just about managed to stop borrowing rules from fantasy for 40 k, which is annoying. Thing like the D6+I vs 2D6 to escape from combat. Engage brain.....

I do occasionally either double count, or forget to count units, which is easy do do when changing lists. I play Guard, so it's entirely possible to gain or lose a squad without noticing. 70 points in 1500 is easy to miss.

nooobie 69
06-04-2007, 23:38
well at my local gw we have to have an army list, appropriate codex and rue book to play (but we dont normaly take it for friendly games). But it makes it alot easier being able to see what they have in thier army so there is no arguments.
Also i got cheated 2 times the first:
at a doubles tourny with my mate we had 2-500pt combat patrols. (both VERY cheesey (mine with 10 ravaners)) any way we got to the final and played dark eldar and necrons the dark eladr we found had no troop choice and both armys seemed over points. My friend on the way back work out roughthly what thier points were and it was ver by a bit the main thing was that the terrain was biast we had 2 6" woods that was it nothin in the middle and they had a hill a 10" by 6" wood and a 10" by 12" wood (roughthly) on a 6 foot by 4 foot board. noobs...

the secound was the worst. I played against DH with my guard this was so bad wat he had was 4/5 assasins (long time ago) 2 daemon hosts troops ect. and an inquistor lord that can change into a bloodthirster when he died. And yes i did say areyou allowed that and he said yes he gets it for free. so i ust let him have it. (couldnt be bothered to argue) and in the end he obviously won.
Oh and another one was some person with tau sayin his kroot were inititve 7 against my marines and when i asked to look in the codex he said no and turned away (again i couldnt be bothered to argue) but i won
to solve these problems i am at the moe collecting 500 pts of every army so i know the army lists know their rules andthier points and i know what they are good at from experience.

Brockafally
07-04-2007, 00:33
whoa....

I would think people cheating is a rare thing. It's happen to me a coupled times in the 9 years I play. One when I was just starting out against a DE player who would say that the poison blades wounded on a 2+ and ignored armour saves (the vets asked him politely to leave since the kiddies were getting angry they couldn't beat him)

The second time I think was because I was playing the De webway portal wrong and my opponent and I (in a tourny) noticed the error. Because of the way I was playing it I was winning the game. I immediately conceided for cheating, but we finished off the game nonetheless. He objected, but I insisted that I lose because I was cheating and it was not proper.

Other than that, no one at my gaming club ever checks others lists because we are honest with eachother. Although one guy gets too serious about gaming and we avoid playing him and he's calmed down. Other than that no cheating.

Cool stories though. Good things to look out for. thx

lovett451
07-04-2007, 00:54
When i first started out playing i had a CSM buddy who would lean againest the table and push his defiler forward a few inches. I hate playing any game where your opponent will try to win at ALL costs, friend or not.

451

nooobie 69
07-04-2007, 01:17
the thing is if its against your friends you should know what theyre like and either check thier lists or trust them but if its a random stranger or someone thats just started then you should always check thier list in case they either made a mistake (by takin too many hq, or over points ect.) or if theyre cheating (which they will say its a mistake any way.

Ross
07-04-2007, 02:28
Oh, Lord Malek he knew, he just wasn't going to help me out until I tried those moves and then berated me on my mistake.

Some people will win at all costs, Ross

Spotty
07-04-2007, 05:29
meh, i have only met one kid who cheats and was able to quarintine him away from everyone else soon enought to keep his incompetence from spreading.
(I took 18 ranks in craft-mental disturbing image)
then all I had to do was pound him into the ground(army not him) and set him as the bar that one has to be higher than in order to not be termed a nooblet.
sounds kinda harsh I know but it works wonders. He has actually stopped cheating for hours at a time as opposed to seconds.

zrem
07-04-2007, 08:41
I like number crunching, so here we go.

Tyranids first 'cause it's shorter.



Broodlord - Acid Maw, Adrenal Glands, Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks, Toxin Sacs - 109 Points
8 Genestealers - Acid Maw, Extended Caprapace, Implant Attack, Scuttlers, Toxin Sacs - 296 Points

+Troops+
8 Genestealers - Acid Maw, Extended Caprapace, Implant Attack, Scuttlers, Toxin Sacs - 296 Points
8 Genestealers - Acid Maw, Extended Caprapace, Implant Attack, Scuttlers, Toxin Sacs - 296 Points

That's 997 in total.

Now, the Grey Knights...

++HQ++

Grand Master - 145

Inquisitor lord - 45
Acolyte (plasma pistol) - 23
Warrior (Multi melta) - 20
Familiar - 6

+Elites+

4 Grey knight terminators (Incinerator), Brother captain - 260/214 (depends if the capt. is inclusive to the four or not)

Vindicare assassin - 110

+Troops+

5 grey knights, Incinerator - 160

5 grey knights, Incinerator - 160

5 stormtroopers, Veteran - 70

5 storm troopers, Veteran, Flamer, Grenade launcher, Rhino - 135

+Heavy support+

Land raider - 250

Lance strike - 70

Dreadnought, Twin Linked lascannon - 130

That's a total of 1538 points assuming he had no wargear (and his inquisitor has no psychic power...), and you meant there are four termies inclusive to the brother capt.

You got boned.

ReclecteR
07-04-2007, 09:47
Yeah, thats right about the GK, but shave off about 24 points on the Nid one. He wouldnt buy scuttlers for the Broodlord squad casue they cant use it

thewizard99
07-04-2007, 22:50
lol major cheating, anyone heard of the mega tank battle. well we where in Middlesbrough, Was imperial ( SM, IG, DH, SOB, etc) ageantest everything else. we then were linked with the 2 stores in darlington and newcastle. making this game huge!!! the manager of the darling store cam up with the idea of melta nukes, a large 48 inch disc, that would pentrate anything in the centre of a 3+. we then said wait a sec, read the rules for the normal one that u can get in the Armored company rules, he got it wrong, we clamied he cheated, and he got peenalised by rolling a dice, and picking a paint brush to shove up his crack, ( it was the tank brush cuase he rolled a one :D ) and then we got a chance to attack back with 3 deathstrike missles, killling 3/4 boards.

another thing, due to the nids not having any weapons the kid who own a hugh fix, said it was eating the leman rus and swallowd a inch every turn , and it survied untill we shot at it with lascannon ( the tank not the fix) and it blew up inside the nids mouth, taking away 3 of its wounds and leaving a bloody mess.

nazrag
08-04-2007, 11:32
At a tournament a couple of years back, there was this marine player..Didn't play against him so I never felt the effects. He had 3 devastators squads with 4 plasma cannons, a land raider and a vindicator..the tournament was 1500pts, later we figured he had about 2300pts...and still he didnt win the tourny :D

alextheterror
04-07-2007, 21:15
i played my italien necron playing friend and apperently after the fight he claimed i cheated i had 1000 points of tyrannids, 2 points less actually and my army list proved it, now then i looked at his army and i realised that he had as many necron warriors as i had gaunts, i'm like :eek: i counted his points and he had something like 1679 points and i'm like :wtf: heck yes i won! he always claims it was unfair like there was to much terrain i'm like hell look at the terrain setup page, i never like to play him because half the time he argues, next time if there is one i will ask him to write down his list insted of
"its in my head"

:skull:
|
/|\
/ \

nurgle_boy
04-07-2007, 23:23
ahh cheating, the misery of gaming. some of those who i play against do not so much use illegal lists, but cheat during the game, namely when they begin to lose. competetive gaming when is comes to fantasy is commenplace, but this is where the amazing phenominon of 'Conor movement' comes in. it consists of measuring from front to back, and from front to at least an extra few inches in from. the worst example was a skink regiment marching 16 inches...
I dont play much 40k at all, although once or twice i have had to intervene in a game where people disagree, only to find that one side has an illegal list or has ben 'interpriting' rules wrong.
what is good fun, is to find someone who you know cheats, and either out-cheat them, by, say, borrowing their dice, using 'conor movement' yourself, and just taking advantage of rules which they use. either that or mentaly kick them into place by checking every rule they are using.

ctsteel
05-07-2007, 00:09
i thought i'd seen this thread before......its from three months ago!

efarrer
05-07-2007, 00:28
In a competitve league I once played in a Tyranid player When he arrived he had "forgot" his list. Long story short never play anyone who doesn't bring or make a list. The existence of a list reduces the probabiltity of cheating. Though an Chaos player I know was an expert in new maths and could make chosen platoons do anything for 200 points (I blame the school system or possibly his parents).

Shadow-BOT
05-07-2007, 04:14
Photoshopped lists are the worse, or faked AB programs. He basically made the AB change the points cost to everything. No one charged him with cheating at first, because he had AB. I then wanted to look at his list after he stomped me. I did not play eldar, but I skimmed through the list, and noticed that the Brightlance cost was 25 points less than its normal one.

The man was 3k points over! We banned him from the store. And played "paintball 40k", where we shot each model he lost with a paintball gun. He was only allowed to play with 500 points, against everyone in the store on the same team.

MALICIOUS LOGIC
05-07-2007, 05:01
Photoshopped lists are the worse, or faked AB programs. He basically made the AB change the points cost to everything. No one charged him with cheating at first, because he had AB. I then wanted to look at his list after he stomped me. I did not play eldar, but I skimmed through the list, and noticed that the Brightlance cost was 25 points less than its normal one.

The man was 3k points over! We banned him from the store. And played "paintball 40k", where we shot each model he lost with a paintball gun. He was only allowed to play with 500 points, against everyone in the store on the same team.


Forging entries for reduced points is an all time low. Not to mention a dumb thing to do. I can't believe someone could think they'd get away with that.

hush88
05-07-2007, 05:55
All i will say is that, DA kicked someone's rearend. That is good enough for me.

ffoecaf
05-07-2007, 16:09
I had a friend, who, back in the day when he still used to play, would put a Phoenix Lord in all of his aspect squads. Well, not all, but it usually involved him having all of the PLs, as well as a Farseer and warlocks. How? Well, he only paid exarch points for them but used PL rules. I never read his book, so I had no idea until I started playing eldar recently.

That just makes the fact that I often won against him all the better.

LususNaturae
05-07-2007, 19:35
Just last week I trounced on my friend w/ Eldar in a 2000pt game. Only to go back and find that I was 170pts over...I felt pretty dumb.

Also, when my bro started playing we were at the store and he wanted to play a 1v1 battle. The kid he wanted to play said he only had 500 pts, so he let my bro take 1 troops. My bro played Necrons, so he took 12 Warriors a Lord w/ rez orb and 3 Destroyers. The other kid was playing Khorne. I walk over halfway through the battle and find my bro losing??!!?! His Destroyers were killed first turn by a Missile launcher on a Rhino and group of Khornate Devastators, his warriors were getting killed by twenty berzerkers along with a kitted out chaos lord, and my brother's lord was being eaten by a greater daemon of Khorne that was represented by a wingless Balrog!!!!!

Even better, I was telling this story to a friend of mine, and he goes, "wait...did this kid have really long blonde hair?" Turns out the kid cheated against my friend too in a similar way!!!

Randy
06-07-2007, 00:50
it usually involved him having all of the PLs, as well as a Farseer and warlocks. How? Well, he only paid exarch points for them but used PL rules. I never read his book, so I had no idea until I started playing eldar recently.

That just makes the fact that I often won against him all the better.

How in gods name did he lose..? Did he like.. try to lose ro something X_x The phoenix lords and like 200 ish each and still worth it..

Biomass Denial
06-07-2007, 03:04
Give the stealers Scything talons and its and extra 120 points

NerdyOgre254
06-07-2007, 03:20
i think it is polite to show your opponent your army list, and for him/her to do the same.
one time when i was starting out this pr!ck decided to give me a 500 point game (i think - its been a while since i saw him thank god).
Me: 500 points Nids (3rd Ed) - Hive Tyrant, 1 squad hormagaunts, 1 squad Termagaunts, 1 Lictor.
Him: approx 750 points Black Templars: 1 Land Raider, 1 maxed out Heavy Bolter Devastator Squad, and a Chaplain (maxed out of course).

Then we came to setting up the terrain. we set up 4 ruins, 1 was in my corner, and the other 3 were over the other side of the board.
'Nuff said, really.

M.F.K.R.
06-07-2007, 03:30
Ironically my first game of Warhammer 40k ever consisted of cheating. I was being taught the rules by my friend and was using another friend's Eldar army. So, I was hideously short sighted in terms of rules and my friend used it against me.

To this day I'm very upset about that. Mostly because it really hurt to have it done for no reason. It wasn't even at a battle-bunker or GW store, but in my friend's game room with no one else around.

But so it goes. Oh, and it isn't always cheating. I've played with guys who misinterpret or completely mis-read a rule. Or they read only what they want to hear and stop reading, ignoring what something really does.

The worst example of this (no clue how anyone could come up with this mind you) has been misinterpreting the Fleet of Foot special rule that Kroot Mercenaries have while in jungle terrain. This guy thought it said that they didn't appear to move, but in reality moved 6 inches each turn until revealed to have moved through the jungle terrain and appear in front of the enemy. Oh yea, that was uh ... interesting to say the least.

I personally like to give benefit of the doubt and assume it was a botched addition job or misinterpretation etc... <shrug> but then, I don't see why people would cheat in these types of games.

Stella Cadente
06-07-2007, 14:33
All i will say is that, DA kicked someone's rearend. That is good enough for me.

Did you REALLY expect any other result:D



Him: approx 750 points Black Templars: 1 Land Raider, 1 maxed out Heavy Bolter Devastator Squad, and a Chaplain (maxed out of course).


so zero troop choices, and a heavy support choice black templars CANNOT take.....yeah its not only points he cheated on

EmperorsChamp01
06-07-2007, 14:40
Ive had a game like that before.... I was playing a friend and he told me he had about 1k of Orks so i only played 1k of my IG and he ended up stomping the living crap out of me then i told him that he needed to write up an army list and it ended up being that he had like 2200 pts of orks. so From now on i ask to see an army list before each game. and that is the best advice i can give.

Redskull
06-07-2007, 15:27
I dont play anyone that cant hand me a well set up printed version of their amylist where all points and stats are listed.

Then again im in the position of working in the only store in iceland that sells warhammer so im a popular oppoment and can afford to pick my battles...

N1AK
06-07-2007, 16:15
If I'm playing a game these days I'll always write up an army list and request that my opponent does. For 5 minutes work any other problems are avoided.

In the past I have seen plenty of cheating, and plenty of incorrect rule use (including by myself). Generally it tends to be young gamers (but not always) and GW stores seem to be worse than clubs...
I've not been cheated in a couple of years (that I noticed) but the last few times before that I just called the game off with "I'm sorry but I don't believe you'r following the rules / your army list is legal" but they were obvious examples and clearly not mistakes.

Randy
06-07-2007, 17:57
I dont play anyone that cant hand me a well set up printed version of their amylist where all points and stats are listed.

Stats as well? Why not jsut check the codex? o-o

I give handwrite my army list and explain all my subtotals (I put totals for squads, then subtotals for each "section" like HQs, troops, etc then put the subtotals added together somewhere in the bottom right) and make sure they're totally clear on what points are what if they ask. I just cba getting my list out every game if they aren't fussed..

Although people used to get really annoyed with me just abusing exsanguinator XD DC chaplain + SHP on a bike = owned XD

Yeh I know he was still T4 for the purposes of exsanguinator but it put people off singling him out in combat (3rd ed)