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electricblooz
06-04-2007, 20:30
Not sure if this thread belongs here or in the Tactics forum, so Mods - please use your judgment and move accordingly.

As I've been watching the debate over on the "future of GW" and various DA codex threads, I've kind of gotten the sense that the newer codeces seem to be favoring mech-style lists. With the exception of C:Nids, it seems like most people are arguing that the optimal builds are mech-based. Certainly, mech-tau and mech-eldar are much bandied about and most of Gt coverage implies that mech-type armies are the dominate builds right now. (I would lump DP'ing marines as sort of an ultimate mech-type).

Does anybody else see this as a trend and what does it mean if anything?

Fist
06-04-2007, 20:34
I would agree. They are definately the popular trend right now. Having said this I am quite happy, as I love the mech-styled lists. Hope GW and Forgeworld keep pumping out the Mech stuff!!!

AdmiralGrave
06-04-2007, 20:36
Well yes iI do see this trend appearing and while it is a good thing to see more vehicles being used, I still won't use them I love my Footslogging Chaos army the only units that can move more than 6" are my 2 fast attack units and my unit of bezerkers. I haven't lost a game in a while and I feel that sticking to my current play style is the way for me so if GW try to change it good luck to them.

lord_blackfang
06-04-2007, 20:37
In 4th edition, the name of the game is MobilityHammer. Standing still won't claim you a lot of objectives. Heck, you'll be lucky to even get LOS to something.

Seth the Dark
06-04-2007, 20:37
But Mech lists can be destroyed and I would say that more bodies the better. I say this because a Devastator squad with 3 Lascannon is cheaper than, say, a Landraider and very difficult to budge.

AyatollahofRockinRolla
06-04-2007, 20:41
I hope not. I play a WW1 style ork horde. Lots of footsloggers backed by heavy artillery; indirect firing basilisk and two squads of 3 lobbas.

Hopefully they consider the "green tidal wave of death" to to be fluffy when they finally release the new ork codex. Maybe a cost adjustment ;)

Rikkjourd
06-04-2007, 20:47
Around here I see a trend towards less vehicles and more infantry (maybe my group are ******...). First everyone got vehicles, then everyone got lots of AT weapons, now infantry is on the menu. I guess it will repeat itself again...

Dynamo
06-04-2007, 21:05
Makes perfect sense that mech lists are common fluff wise. Modern warfare uses vehicles all the time. Surely in the 41st millenium this is likley to continue. Sure when it comes to clearing buldings and other tight spaces, foot troops, especially heavily armoured ones (Terminators in Space Hulk) make more sense.

My only issue is the lack of a cheap transport for Eldar. But then the Wave Serpent is rather tough and can protect the precious cargo.

Games wise, I think foot slogging or mech are just as good if played right. They certainly have different styles, strengths and weaknessses. However, I think different armies are better suited to one or the other. Or as always with marines, equally good at both.

insectum7
06-04-2007, 21:08
Tyranids have feet and wings, no mech here.

I think that in order to diversify the armies there may have been an increase in the viability of mechanized forces. I think this is to offset the panic everyone had in the beginning of 4th Edition in regards to transports. I doubt the footslogging armies will dissapear however.

Ideally I would like to see a more diverse array of units within the lists themselves. I much prefer playing an opponent with more than 4-5 choices out of his/her codex.

ghost hunter
06-04-2007, 21:12
Makes perfect sense that mech lists are common fluff wise. Modern warfare uses vehicles all the time. Surely in the 41st millenium this is likley to continue. Sure when it comes to clearing buldings and other tight spaces, foot troops, especially heavily armoured ones (Terminators in Space Hulk) make more sense.

My only issue is the lack of a cheap transport for Eldar. But then the Wave Serpent is rather tough and can protect the precious cargo.

Games wise, I think foot slogging or mech are just as good if played right. They certainly have different styles, strengths and weaknessses. However, I think different armies are better suited to one or the other. Or as always with marines, equally good at both.

Why clear a building when you can blow it down :rolleyes:

Anyhoo i play a mech tau list everyting cn move at least 12 inches in each of my go's :evilgrin:

And i agree its just a constant cycle

Mech army-> someone gets more anti tank weapons ->infantry army->someone switches to anti infantry weapons ->mech army again

Gen.Steiner
06-04-2007, 21:27
My all-infantry Guard say "No!" and then blow your vehicles to bits, before shooting their passengers as they stagger from the wreckage. :D Flyers, skimmers, tanks, we'll kill it. :D

Colonel Deal
06-04-2007, 21:49
A big afirmative on that Gen. Steiner.

I think there are always trends, but no style of list ever truly dies out. Most of my armies are footsloggers and they do fine. It depends both on your playing style and whether you are going for really competetive lists for tourneys or not.

BloodiedSword
06-04-2007, 22:29
I prefer foot slogging armies. It's mostly because I like the way they look and feel than any tactical reason though.

There's also my major prejudice against transports caused by playing way too much Command and Conquer, where they were worse than useless, and Dawn of War (likewise).

Lepp
06-04-2007, 22:34
Yes, mechanized armies are currently "in fashion". But the core of the game is still infantry, and that is where it all circles back to.

TCUTTER
06-04-2007, 22:36
i used to be a mech army kinda guy, but footslogging seem so much cooler, take my orks, they dont have a single machine in the army,(im waiting and waiting for the new ones:p ) their unbeating, you can kill them all, ive seen them destroy nids and tau, i hope i am in the minority however, as then ill be able to cake walk tournis when i enter them. mind you, trends come and go, so im not gonna get too comfortable.

Crassus
06-04-2007, 22:39
one thing about foot-sloggers is that they are harder to kill in terms of numbers i.e a tank could be killed in just one hit while a squad has to take many hits to die.

i usualy take foot sloger marines and love to watch people's eyes :eek: when they see how many 3+ saves they need to kill (marines and necrons) although with my marines, i always have a dreadnought or two to give some supporting fire and to also act as a fire magnet since people are scared of charging dreadnoughts (i have never been a ble to charge my dreadnoughts :cries:. a disadvantage of a foot-slogger army is that it is a target rich enviroment and can really be killed by ordanance

BigJon
06-04-2007, 22:47
While I don't pay much attention to the GT/tourny lists because I don't believe in them I have noticed that in my local gaming store a lot of the list I am starting to see are mobile/Mech and I will also include Drop Pods and Deep
Striking into that. There does seem to be an advantage to fast redeployment armies for grabbing quarters and objectives. Personally I prefer foot-sloggers and play foot-slogger lists but have to admit its hard to keep up with mobile armies on top of turn 6 ;)

BigJon

Madfool2
06-04-2007, 22:49
Im walking, but i've got more of my mates with me, and a few just happen to wield missile launchers and melta guns.

xibo
06-04-2007, 22:52
No. My Guard is all but dead... But Mech lists, especially mech high elves are VERY dead to my guard instead...
And my mate's greenskins perform equally well without tanks....

Gen.Steiner
06-04-2007, 22:57
One Leman Russ, no upgrades, gets you twenty Guardsmen with two meltas... or two plasma guns. Or a lascannon. ;) One Russ with all the extras gets you thirty Guardsmen with extras!

I know which I'd rather have.

Madfool2
06-04-2007, 22:58
One Leman Russ, no upgrades, gets you twenty Guardsmen with two meltas... or two plasma guns. Or a lascannon. ;) One Russ with all the extras gets you thirty Guardsmen with extras!

I know which I'd rather have.
It's quite clear, you'd have 200 guardsmen.

xibo
06-04-2007, 23:24
One Leman Russ, no upgrades, gets you twenty Guardsmen with two meltas... or two plasma guns. Or a lascannon. ;) One Russ with all the extras gets you thirty Guardsmen with extras!

I know which I'd rather have.
You see, General Steiner is called General for reason...
and now consider his guys might all be infiltrating ...

In the times before I was enlighted by his divinity I played footslogging tau ( old dex times where crisisfree armies were still possible )... you might not believe how much stuff 3 broadsides and 72 firewarriors can do in 1000pts games...

Gen.Steiner
06-04-2007, 23:29
72 Firewarriors?! I have enough problems against 24! :p

kaimarion
06-04-2007, 23:33
for me foot sloggin will never stop in my armie simply because its great fun but its even funner if theres terrain

Krog Ironclaw
06-04-2007, 23:52
My Ork army is (mostly) footsloggin. There is a unit of Trukkboyz and a Battlewagon in there. The Battlewagon is mostly for sitting still shootin at stuff though.

Latro_
06-04-2007, 23:57
why wouch mech styley armies be in fashion now that the rules really dont favour it

pen hits disembarks
entaglement
no rhino rush

etc..


Certainly have a couple of fast moving units, maybe one with a transport. But whole army of em? no thanks, 99% of armies pack lascannons and railguns and whatnot over heavy bolters etc time and time again.

Master Jeridian
07-04-2007, 00:11
I think Mechanised in the form of Predators, Fire Prisms, Tornados, Hammerheads, etc is very popular in 4th Ed.
4th Ed with proper amount of terrain is about mobility and firepower- Dev's squads, IG Heavy Weapons teams, etc have the firepower but lack the mobility. This means they often find themselves out of LOS of targets, which then move out and kill them when the opponent chooses too.

So spamming mobile firepower units usually means vehicles, usually means Mechanised/Armoured.

Mechanised Infantry- i.e. taking transports is not so popular since GW in their rush to nerf Rhino's smash the poor little engines to pieces.
Worse Obscure rolls.
Entangled.
Escalation.
Worse Damage Tables.
Penetrating Hit jump out.
Worse Passenger damage.
Worse terrain tests.
Etc. All conspire to screw transport armies.

The only type of vehicle to escape relatively unscathed where Skimmers- which assuming your not a complete idiot have moved over 6", can't be Penetrated, ignore terrain, harder to hit in combat, etc, etc.

Hence why Wave Serpents, Devilfish, Falcons are so effective.

Footsloggers generally get danced around by Mechanised armies- either hiding out of their LOS and picking off straggling units if the footsloggers like to sit and shoot (IG) or just floating out of reach and gunning down targets if they like to run at you (Orks).

Brockafally
07-04-2007, 00:13
Your seeing a lot more mobility in skimmer heavy armys (tau and Eldar) where they can be viable (as a glance on a close topped skimmer has a lesser chance of doing something).

I can see the attraction though to a mobile army, getting to pick your fights where you want, only attacking certain sections of a horde wall and they are difficult to counter in objective missions.

Just need to change the chaos codex for my worldeaters and they'll be back out and smashing vehicles. *mutters* stupid skimmers.

(btw I field a foot slogging world eater army with no vehicles)

wingedserpant
07-04-2007, 01:28
My iron warriors have no tanks at all. I use infiltrate instead of rhinos. All infantry armies that can keep mobile can combat anything. Transports are just a hinderance to me.

keatsmeister
07-04-2007, 01:45
I love footsloggers, as
1 - I like to use them for a change from my White Scars and a change of pace and style

2 - I like a challenge!

3 - There's something deeply appealing about the concept of a force that carries everything it needs rather than being carried by what it needs. Self-reliance, steadfast and resolute.

To the charge that non-mech forces can't take ground, just try it in really dense terrain, then see how far those Chimeras get. Good deployment and supporting each unit can be just as effective at keeping your squads alive to capture ground as spending points on a transport.

VanHel
07-04-2007, 03:46
I use very few vehicles in my armies. Well, I can't say that completely as I've got an armoured company, but if you don't count that, then my other armies don't have many vehicles.

Aundae
07-04-2007, 04:42
I believe it all comes down to playing style. All skimmer mech armies are great because the best you are ever going to get is a glance. They have the mobility, firepower, and survivability all in one package. Even if the other player prepares to face nothing but tanks you just move behind cover and pick off what you can without exposing yourself. The same can’t be said for an armored company especially if there is a lot of cover to impede their progress and they never get an automatic glance unless they pop smoke in which case they aren’t doing anything anyway. Foot sloggers are good though just because there is so many wounds to go through. However, unless you infiltrate or take very vulnerable transports kiss mobility goodbye.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-04-2007, 04:58
I fail to see a distinction between infantry and mech armies. I just see players who choose to limit themselves and players who do not in a sense. Why is there such a thing as an "all-infantry" army to begin with, if the option to take vehicles is there? In the end this is a fairly abstract game and vehicles are just another model with a set of rules presented in the relevant codex. If a player chooses not to use perfectly viable units then they may well suffer in terms of overall effectiveness and it should come as no surprise.

As for all-infantry guard, in a list with many guardsmen to begin with you can afford to spend some points on front AV14 pie-plate chuckers.

Joewrightgm
07-04-2007, 05:09
My necrons are ground pounders, and with the exception of Monolith and Destroyers, the rest of my regular "all-comers" fun list is nothing but PBI

Marius Xerxes
07-04-2007, 05:13
I dont personally see people playing all infantry armies as suffering. They are playing in the style they prefer, and through that, having as much fun as the next guy.

And as far as effectiveness, take Gen Steiners example of having an extra 30 Guardsmen compared to one Leman Russ. The tank can only shoot at one target, and can be completly destroyed in one shot. The 3 squads you can have in its place can shoot at 3 seperate targets, or all the same if needed. And instead of 1 shot to destroy, you need 30 to destroy.

That being said, i take the tank in my armies, but that is of course my preferance and how i like to play. But i certinatly dont look down at his army and say he has just limited himself, he has actually provided more shots per turn, more wounds to have to inflict on his army, and more flexability in heavy weapons in being able to shoot at a more diverse range of things, instead of being focused on one a turn like a take.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-04-2007, 05:20
To address the point someone else made, I would take the leman russ tank and the two meltagun squads and put them in a chimera so their meltaguns actually get used. I wrote this barebones list in 5 minutes just to illustrate the point:




-Command Squad 66 Points
Captain, standard bearer.

Infantry Platoon (350 Points)
- Command Squad 65 Points
Lieutenant, lascannon.
- Infantry Squad 95 Points
Plasma gun; lascannon team.
- Infantry Squad 95 Points
Plasma gun; lascannon team.
- Infantry Squad 95 Points
Plasma gun; lascannon team.

Infantry Platoon (310 Points)
- Command Squad 55 Points
Lieutenant, missile launcher team.
- Infantry Squad 85 Points
Plasma gun; missile launcher team.
- Infantry Squad 85 Points
Plasma gun; missile launcher team.
- Infantry Squad 85 Points
Plasma gun; missile launcher team.


Armoured Fist (155 Points)
Infantry Squad 70 Points
Meltagun.
-Chimera 85 Points
Turret multilaser, hull heavy bolter.

Armoured Fist (155 Points)
Infantry Squad 70 Points
Meltagun.
-Chimera 85 Points
Turret multilaser, hull heavy bolter.

Leman Russ Battle Tank 155 Points
Hull and sponson heavy bolters.
Leman Russ Battle Tank 155 Points
Hull and sponson heavy bolters.
Leman Russ Battle Tank 145 Points
Hull heavy bolter.

This comes out at a mere 1491 points. It has infantry covered pretty well I think in addition to the vehicles which clearly add more than they take away.

Laughingmonk
07-04-2007, 05:21
Mech armies are in fashion because more than minimal terrain Isn't.

I always insist on playing with at least 50% terrain, and IG infantry are beyond reason when they all get 4+ cover saves in buildings.

electricblooz
07-04-2007, 05:26
I think Mechanised in the form of Predators, Fire Prisms, Tornados, Hammerheads, etc is very popular in 4th Ed.
The only type of vehicle to escape relatively unscathed where Skimmers- which assuming your not a complete idiot have moved over 6", can't be Penetrated, ignore terrain, harder to hit in combat, etc, etc.

Hence why Wave Serpents, Devilfish, Falcons are so effective.

Footsloggers generally get danced around by Mechanised armies- either hiding out of their LOS and picking off straggling units if the footsloggers like to sit and shoot (IG) or just floating out of reach and gunning down targets if they like to run at you (Orks).

this struck a chord with me - perhaps it is my local environment (we have quite a few fish of fury and eldar fire dragon run n' gun armies in my area.) In addition, every sister army except mine plays Rhino/bolter rush. In fact, come to think of it, I'm also pretty much the only IG player who doesn't use DP-ing plasma spam.

Still - I don't read about a lot people advocating footsloggers over in the tactics forum.

electricblooz
07-04-2007, 05:30
I fail to see a distinction between infantry and mech armies. I just see players who choose to limit themselves and players who do not in a sense. Why is there such a thing as an "all-infantry" army to begin with, if the option to take vehicles is there? In the end this is a fairly abstract game and vehicles are just another model with a set of rules presented in the relevant codex. If a player chooses not to use perfectly viable units then they may well suffer in terms of overall effectiveness and it should come as no surprise.

As for all-infantry guard, in a list with many guardsmen to begin with you can afford to spend some points on front AV14 pie-plate chuckers.


Well, for me it's about two choices

A: I don't haev the money to shell out for a bunch of rhino's, WS's, or chimeras.
B: Practically all of my armies are themed as garrison forces and would therfore have few combat vehicles

Aundae
07-04-2007, 08:53
A lot depends upon the army as well. The Sisters being mentioned as one that uses Rhino’s and the bolter rush. For Sisters this is a very effective tactic because it can also take advantage of the flamer units that they can have in each squad as well as their faith points. I.E. a flamer just sitting there at the other side of the board isn’t going to do anything. Necrons are very good at foot slogging because every gun they have is anti-tank and anti-infantry. They are hard to keep down so they can take the hits as they walk across. Tyranids can foot slog because they are fast, just using one version of their gaunt it moves 6, fleets, then assaults 12, if you are lucky and the other player foolish you might be able to get a first turn assault from the opposite side of the board.

superknijn
07-04-2007, 09:27
I prefer static (yes, static, I don´t like to ´jump on the bandwagon´) with some mechanized elements. This is true more so for my IG than my Tau, but both have a distinct static, footslogger and fast elements.

There does seem to be an overabundace of mechanized lists; as if no other Tau army except for a mechanized one can even fight. Then you also have the huge amounts of drop troop guardsmen lists. I hate trends. :rolleyes:

fwacho
07-04-2007, 11:18
I like vehilces... particualarly eldar ones...

However... i have limited budget. early on my armies were almost exclusivly footsloggers. with maybe a tank or two than I got for my birthday or christmas.

then I discovered light vehicles. These work great as long as you have at least 3 of them (other wise don't bother) Now all my armies feature some amount of light vehilces (except my marines)

My marines feature 2 dreads and a pred as well as a rhino and razorback. This give me mobility to rush for the objective or throw up a wall.

As has been said the name of the game is speed and applying your firepower where you want it. thus why mech armies are gaining popularity. Don't be surprise to see DA running rhino "run 'n guns" with adjustment in point costs. probabaly supported by a raven wing squad.

I regularly play a mechanized gaurd player. 4 chimeras and a hellhound plus full HS tank choices make for a brutal game every time. Usually I spend the firts few turns killing his infantry and only ge to the tanks later. fo rmuch the same reason as Gen Stien suggst he likes more guardsmen... the troops really are a more immedaite threat. that and it's a waste of shooting go after the tank as I can barely touch it.

All that to say...
Mech is still a reasonable choice to use as long as you aren't tryign to assault out of it. (exception banshees with FoF out of waveserpent that moved last turn)

Foot slogging is still viable as long as you don't go half way.

Thus we have balance...

Onisuzume
07-04-2007, 11:48
Footslogging is pretty much all I play. (partially due to my lack of vehicles)

Dark Angels: no transport vehicles. (still putting the finishing touches on my first vehicles, a dreadnought) No assault squads either. (not yet anyways)

Deathwing: busy making an Land Raider for them, though mostly with the purpose of fire magnet and anti-tank. Terminators will start deployed on the table.

Tyranids: well, what do you expect? Genestealers hanging underneath a wave serpent?

junglesnake
07-04-2007, 11:55
Actually I disagree.

I think the 40k rulebooks are more open to choice than they were when they were first issued and that most armies now have armour.

Back in 2nd Edition and to some extent 3rd ed some races had mech options but there were no models for them. An example is the Vyper jetbike which was not released untill late on in 2nd ed. Another is the ork battlewagon which was produced in the '80's for rogue trader but then discontinued and so Orks have had the option for battlewagons on their list ever since but no model.

I would argue that you have got the Eldar bit wrong also. They are intended to be a jumped up footslogging unit. This is why they get fleet of foot. Orks are the hardcore foot slogging army but you could easily argue that Imperial Guard are also considering the two compulsery troop choices will get you a minimum of 30 men (platoon with two squads and an armoured fist squad). The tanks merely add a little backbone for your army to fight around.

As I say Eldar are an "elite" footslogging army. Just look at their Seer Councils and most of their aspect warriors - they are equiped for close combat, not ranged shooting. That is really what indicates the armies type.

Space marines are the best allrounders although no one should ever be described as "static" with marines unless the scenario dictates it.

In truth I think the reason you say this is because most players play meat-grinder battles where the winner kills the most. Not battles where different tactics or army selections come into it.

3 0f 6
07-04-2007, 11:59
funny thing, at the gt heat 1 last year i happenened to notice lemonpotatoe had only infantry in his iron warrior force...

he did sooo much better than my iron warrior force did, i hit with nearly all my shells but was plagued with 1's on wound rolls...

I really like the look of a foot slogging iw force :P

guillimansknight
07-04-2007, 12:01
mech ehh??

you want fast ?

high orbit to battlefeild in 6 seconds

beat that tank boy

"Death From Above!"

Son of Makuta
07-04-2007, 12:05
Nids are fast footers, and Eldar are pretty good as well with their fleet moves. I have armies of both. The Eldar have one Wave Serpent, for the Fire Dragons of course :D, while the rest of them footslog - I'm not fond of shelling out for all the tanks, or converting them, and besides I like the look of massed Aspect Warriors. As for the nids, they just tear up the board, shoot on turn 1 and eat everything on turn 2. Lovely!

I use a lot of walker equivalents though - I love Wraithlords and Carnifexes, and you can convert them like a dream, especially the 'lords. They're slow, but I don't care! :D

Master Jeridian
07-04-2007, 12:15
In truth I think the reason you say this is because most players play meat-grinder battles where the winner kills the most. Not battles where different tactics or army selections come into it.

Short answer, no.

We play GT standard most of the time- so all Standard Missions, with 25% terrain or more, randomise Gamma or Omega.

The 'static' footslogger army finds that the mech army will hide from their fire arcs, only moving out into LOS of 1-2 units to wipe them out.
The mobility afforded by the mech army (and I generally mean Eldar, Tau, Tornado skimmers, etc) allows them to be effective all game, whilst making a last turn dash for the objectives- tank shocking those footsloggers off it if need be.

The footslogger usually must sacrifice turns of shooting to walk to the objectives, this may be hindered even more if they're struggling through terrain.

It is often the invulnerable Eldar Skimmer speeding 24" to an objective, smashing any footsloggers from it with tank shock then surviving any return fire with ease that wins the game for mech over footslogger.

Not a kill all no mission thing- which I reckon mech could win most often anyway.

For the record I use:

SM/DA- mech
Sisters- mech
IG- all-infantry

Onisuzume
07-04-2007, 15:22
As I say Eldar are an "elite" footslogging army. Just look at their Seer Councils and most of their aspect warriors - they are equiped for close combat, not ranged shooting. That is really what indicates the armies type.
And what would you call my Deathwing army then? ^^
That's 20+ footsloggers running around with absolutely no reduction in firepower.

mech ehh??

you want fast ?

high orbit to battlefeild in 6 seconds

beat that tank boy

"Death From Above!"
I can do it in less. :p
Deathwing Assault! (Half the army at your doorstep by turn one)

For the record I use:

SM/DA- mech
Sisters- mech
IG- all-infantry
Except that the DA can also footslog better then the SM. (Combat Squads anyone?)

caliburn
07-04-2007, 15:33
Indeed, mech lists are the dominant build now-a-days. Footsloggers are often criticized, but I actually prefer them. I like the old school gritty combat where the troops have to fight for every inch of ground. That's not to say that I don't include mobile elements in my lists, but they just don't dominate my lists.

guillimansknight
07-04-2007, 16:01
[QUOTE=Onisuzume;1450211]And what would you call my Deathwing army then? ^^
That's 20+ footsloggers running around with absolutely no reduction in firepower.

I can do it in less. :p
Deathwing Assault! (Half the army at your doorstep by turn one)


i said tank boy !!!

i guess if we played it would be a matter of who depstrikes first would lose

505
07-04-2007, 16:09
I got both. one reason I wanted two significantly different armies my Space marines is all mech or bike mounted...why? because my guard is all footsloggers (ok I have a 2 tanks and a chimera that I CAN use but my normal 2k army list is over 108 footmen. I do like playing against mech armies cause I got lot of missle launchers, lascannons, and melta/plasmas. so (unless I play agaisn armored company) 90% of games I play I kill all enemy vehicles. the key is setup in right place shoot unmoble for3 turns then run 1/2 your troops to claim objecitves.

its a styl issue

Master Jeridian
07-04-2007, 16:20
Except that the DA can also footslog better then the SM. (Combat Squads anyone?)

Oh, dear a new army fanboy, :p

Small hint, combat squads....not that great. A SM army can have numerous 8xman squads with Infiltrate and 2xplasma. Backed up by some 6xman las/plas. With a Termie Libby with Fury and Termie Command Squad.

I assure you SM's can do footslogging better than DA. The weapons are cheaper, the squads are better sized and the wargear (fists) is cheaper, the Librarians are more powerful and the Termies can pack more Heavy Weapons.

But that's for another topic. Any army can do footslog, but most armies are better with vehicles, plenty of.

I didn't say DA/SM/Sisters where always mech, I said my DA/SM/Sisters armies are mech- because it works better.


Indeed, mech lists are the dominant build now-a-days. Footsloggers are often criticized, but I actually prefer them. I like the old school gritty combat where the troops have to fight for every inch of ground. That's not to say that I don't include mobile elements in my lists, but they just don't dominate my lists.

One of my favourite battle types is IG on IG for just that reason. But against most opponents, of the Mech Tau, Eldar, SM persuasion- being footslog just puts you at a huge disadvantage.


90% of games I play I kill all enemy vehicles. the key is setup in right place shoot unmoble for3 turns then run 1/2 your troops to claim objecitves.

In theory, though there should be plenty of terrain- 25% of the board worth dotted around. So in practice the mech army (say Mech Tau or Eldar) will hide behind said terrain, drawing LOS to only 1-2 units which they then wipe out. Repeat until footsloggers are dead or below scoring.
You must either keep moving to try to draw LOS to the enemy, who in turn will just keep moving to prevent you whilst still shooting, or sit and take it.
Near the end, your sacrificing shooting in order to run at the objectives, whilst the mech opponent is doing the same yet still able to shoot, and they can do it faster and so later in the game.

Da Black Gobbo
07-04-2007, 16:28
Well i use a space marine fast attack, but only field a Rhino, with a 10 men squad inside using traits i get for them true grit and counter strike (i don't know if that's is the name) then i get 2 squads of 5 bikes one of them with a HB and 2 melta guns in each one, then i get a 10 marine assault squad with furious charge, a Lord of Sanctity goes with them and another one goes with the Bikes riding one, to finish i get 5 scouts with HB and snipers, is a very fast way to play, but it's my way with marines with guard i preffer to make a gun line with 60 guards backed by 2 Basiliks and a Heavy weapon platoon full of lass cannons or misile launchers, then i get a Hellhound and 10 karskin riding a chimera to claim objetives.

Grand Master Raziel
07-04-2007, 16:57
I think both footslogging and mech styles are of about equal usefulness. Lately I've been leaning toward mech, because it's something I haven't traditionally done as I learned the game, and mobility is both fun and effective. I've found that the mobility granted by Rhinos has let me set up some of the most horrendous beatdowns I've ever dished out. That said, you actually can cover a lot of ground with a basic footslogging unit as long as you don't saddle it with a heavy weapon.

IMO, the balance between footslogging and mech works out best if you roll up missions the way you're supposed to: roll for mission, then for the level of the mission. Alpha-level missions favor mech forces, because the win condition has nothing to do with killing the other guy; whereas Omega-level missions favor the footsloggers, because all those mech-mounted units start in reserve. So, while missions may occasionally favor one style of army over the other, over the course of time it balances out.

Marshal2Crusaders
07-04-2007, 16:58
The Ultimate Footsloggin Marine Army is Black Templars. We have 20 man squads for Christ Sake, this is all well and good until you realize that We dont have any Fire Support outside of Vehicles. You can do a One trick mech rush with 3 LRC's though.

@ Master Jeridan: Combat squads may not be great, but thats still a tool thats use has yet to be found.

Onisuzume
07-04-2007, 20:28
i said tank boy !!!

i guess if we played it would be a matter of who depstrikes first would lose
Erm, I disagree.

Your units arrive piecemeal, so they're easy to pick off one by one.
One has with a big of luck 3-4 units in roughly the same area.

Oh, dear a new army fanboy,
I've been a DA fan before the 4th edition, so you're wrong there.

Small hint, combat squads....not that great. A SM army can have numerous 8xman squads with Infiltrate and 2xplasma. Backed up by some 6xman las/plas. With a Termie Libby with Fury and Termie Command Squad.
Yes, and those lascannons are useless if you move.
The differance between 5 men and 6 men squads is small, and not big enough to avoid ToF.
Libby with fury is overrated, as is termi command squads.

I assure you SM's can do footslogging better than DA. The weapons are cheaper, the squads are better sized and the wargear (fists) is cheaper, the Librarians are more powerful and the Termies can pack more Heavy Weapons.
Librarians more powerful? We can get S10 AP1 templates of doom. (or S1 AP6 templates of darn >_>)
Not everyone uses fists.
As for the cheaper weapons; we get cheaper razorbacks, in addition to 10-men squads. Only the las/plas costs more. (and heavy bolters >_>)

Near the end, your sacrificing shooting in order to run at the objectives, whilst the mech opponent is doing the same yet still able to shoot, and they can do it faster and so later in the game.

That said, you actually can cover a lot of ground with a basic footslogging unit as long as you don't saddle it with a heavy weapon.
And with combat squads you can keep moving with one squad while the heavy weapon keeps firing.

The Ultimate Footsloggin Marine Army is Black Templars. We have 20 man squads for Christ Sake, this is all well and good until you realize that We dont have any Fire Support outside of Vehicles. You can do a One trick mech rush with 3 LRC's though.
With half or so of those squads being scout-equalavents.
And, ofcourse, the fact that LRC's hold only 15 men. (dark angels are better at this again with a total capacity of 16)

Bunnahabhain
07-04-2007, 21:01
I agree with Grand Master Raziel. The mission, and it's level, is the key.

If you have a large part of a mechanised force turning up at once then the footsloggers are stuffed. you simply can't beat their ability to move about. If this isn't true, then there's nowhere near enough terrain.

If a mechanised force turn up in dribs and drabs, and the footsloggers can't beat them, the general is either inept, or unlucky. It doesn't matter if you've lined up 6 missile launchers where the rhino's coming on, and the all bounce off...

I play Guard. An Armoured company and forces you have to deploy in close order simply to fit on the table offer both perspectives....

Master Jeridian
07-04-2007, 21:10
Yes, and those lascannons are useless if you move.
The differance between 5 men and 6 men squads is small, and not big enough to avoid ToF.
Libby with fury is overrated, as is termi command squads.


What lascannons? The ones that aren't in the 8xman 2xplasma squad that are advancing, or the ones in the 6xman las/plas that are sat in cover?

The difference between 5 and 6 is huge. Kill 3 in a 5xman and it is no longer scoring, gives up half it's VP's. Kill 3 in a 6xman and it isn't.

Libby with Fury overrated? Many at GT's disagree- the ability to zing through an entire board without LOS is invaluable. Hitting several vehicles in the side (AV 10 or 11) can be nasty, as can Pinning a few units.
Termie Command Squads are the cheapest way to plonk down 2 assault cannons whilst protecting the Libby.


Librarians more powerful? We can get S10 AP1 templates of doom. (or S1 AP6 templates of darn >_>)
Not everyone uses fists.
As for the cheaper weapons; we get cheaper razorbacks, in addition to 10-men squads. Only the las/plas costs more. (and heavy bolters >_>)


Average is Str 7, AP 4. Admittedly it can win big and lose big. But it is a flame weapon, I'd take hitting multiple units across the board anyday.
As a flame weapon it forces your Librarian to be used aggresively, often suicidally.

What happens when you wipe out the target unit with your Str 10 AP 1 flamer? Their buddies gun your Libby down.
Cheaper Razorbacks...notice no-one took them in a SM list because non-skimmer transports are nerfed in 4th Ed.
Forced to take 10xman squads an advantage? Seriously.

Of the Tactical Squad options, only the plasma cannon is cheaper (because Blasts aren't as powerful in 4th Ed), the plasma, heavy bolter, lascannon, fist, sword are all more.

We're probably not going to agree but I just don't see your vaunted advantages. I admire your commitment to the DA but it's clouding your judgement.


And with combat squads you can keep moving with one squad while the heavy weapon keeps firing.

You can with a 6xman las/plas and an 8xman 2xplas with Fist. Combat squads- not that much of an advantage.

If you could still take variable squad size, with the Combat Squad as a bonus rule for 10xman squads....then it would be an advantage. That it comes at the cost of variable squad size and most things more expensive- makes it not.

Anyway, this is better taken to the 'new DA Codex' thread.


Footsloggers may have an edge in Take and Hold where they can concentrate their force at one point and the mech force can't ignore them. In most other missions, the mech force has the mobility to grab objectives whilst staying out of LOS, etc.

Tammo_Korsai
07-04-2007, 21:27
I am a foot slogger army most of the time, with some fast infantry such as assualt marines or a unit of Dires in a Wave Serpent for my Eldar.

When you need a foot slogger army to move, pair up your squads; one moves, the other stays still and fires to full effect and alternate each turn. Doing this with lots of paired squads will let you seize ground or get closer to loot counters whilst some conentrated fire combats the biggest threats.

I find my viechles die all too quickly or get smashed into uselessness with the exception of my rock hard Venerable Dread who shrugs off lascannon shots and goes "Oi! I've had that purity seal for a hundred years and you burnt it off!"

Gen.Steiner
07-04-2007, 22:09
@ shutupSHUTUP!! - that 1,491 list is indeed quite good. However, if you were to drop the Leman Russes, you'd have an extra platoon (35 men with extras) and enough left over for a voxnet. ;) On top of that, you'd retain a mobile element in the form of the Armoured Fist units. Win-win, I think!

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-04-2007, 23:00
Personally I disagree, I don't think another 35 guardsmen will add to the army what was lost in the 3 pie-plate throwers. The two chimeras on their own wouldn't last long with the majority of the enemy's anti-tank firepower trained on them either. Footslogging infantry, mechanised troops and tanks work best together in this instance.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-04-2007, 23:07
I just don't think another 35 guardsmen would add to the army equal to what was lost in the 3 pie-plate throwing fire magnets, you'd have lost 3 units that can move 12" a turn for the sake of grabbing objectives. The two chimeras on their own wouldn't last long either with the majority of the enemy's anti-tank firepower trained on them. The entire list would need re-writing.

All-infantry is certainly a viable guard strategy, but lists that include the chimeras and leman russ tanks in the right ratio compared to troops probably come together better as a cohesive whole.

Voodoo Boyz
07-04-2007, 23:31
It's not so much "mech" it's more about being able to move and project force.

Tau & Eldar will always be "mech" with lots of Skimmers to be competitive, because that's what they have to be competitive with. Without all the Skimmers and suits, they'd suck.

Marines as Mech, I think is not such a good idea for being competitive. Taking lots of things that can move and fire (Terminators, Landspeeders) and mobile assault elements make things good. You still want static, because "mobile" anti-tank elements aren't that great.

Nids are best as Godzilla with fast support via Gaunts or Stealers & a Flyrant. Thing with them is they all move and fire at full effect.

Necrons are odd, but they have lots of mobility with the veil, Immortals, Destroyers, and a Monolith allowing teleports + Move/Fire whatever.

Basically the foot slogging assault armies are dead. If you're a unit that needs to be in assault to do damage and you only move 6" a turn, you will lose, since as you've undoubtably noticed, most of these other lists allow you to move and fire at full effect, which means they can run away from you AND shoot you while staying out of charge range.

This is why all the successful assault armies in the game move quickly and most importantly have ways that limit incoming fire to assault units (Demon summoning, Web Way Portal/Raider rush DE, horde of fearless Nid assault units or smaller units hiding behind walls of Fex's).

Master Jeridian
07-04-2007, 23:53
Agreed Voodoo Boyz, it's one of the reasons Orks are such a design nightmare.

You can't make them inherently faster than 6" walk as then they'd just be green Nids and it doesn't fit the Ork style.

Hence why I suggested numerous movement boost for Orks- such as a Warboss Waaagh wargear upgrade allowing once per game giving everyone 6"+D6" towards the enemy.

And an Animosity test making on a 1 the unit sit and squabble, on a 6 the unit runs forward 6"+D6".

sanctusmortis
08-04-2007, 00:05
Well, the two armies I have in planning are MechTau and footslog Chaos. I think, to be honest, Tau have very little choice but to be a little mech no matter what the do - the army is geared towards mobility after all, and besides broadsides and sniper teams everything gains by being mobile.

Chaos, however... well, if you want CC you just summon it. Otherwise, it's a lot of slogging, as your troops have the option of the too costly Land Raider or the cannon fodder Rhino. Taking a Defiler over a Land Raider is quite the choice option to many players, and the army is full of great footsloggers like Obliterators, Beserkers, Rubrics...

Marshal2Crusaders
08-04-2007, 01:49
With half or so of those squads being scout-equalavents.
And, ofcourse, the fact that LRC's hold only 15 men. (dark angels are better at this again with a total capacity of 16)

Too bad there is no possible way to make a 16 man squad with Dark Angels

Bolter Bait
08-04-2007, 03:39
Hmm, I wouldn't say footsloggers are completely dead. Today I took part in a mega battle and on my table, the only vehicle was a chaos drednaught. Then again, on the other table were Iron Warriors w/ 2 Land Raiders and a Basalisk (this was a 1000 point game, so I had a good laugh at the IWs), though I wouldn't say that they were mobile.

In fact, pretty much any transport that isn't a Land Raider is pretty much a flaming coffin on the first turn. Mech lists work well for armies with fast skimmers (Both chocolate and vanilla Eldar and Tau), but armies that rely on rhinos/chimeras seem to end up being footsloggers by the end of turn 2. Or at least they do in my neighborhood.

Rhamag
08-04-2007, 03:51
It makes me wonder if the only way I'm going to win more games with my orks is by getting 30 of them into trukks, 20 into a battlewagon and infiltrating another 30, to try and avoid the long walk across the wide open fields of death that make up most gaming boards I've used.

Stella Cadente
08-04-2007, 11:47
I have a foot slogging Dark angel army, and its done me good so far, I've never been a fan of transports myself, so I never really take them unless I like the model or it will serve some purpose

bratbag
08-04-2007, 12:39
I would disagree that footsloggers are dead.

Its true that not all armies can pull off foot slogging and that the current fotm (tau,eldar,marine) work better with large amounts of super mobile firepower.

If everyone played orks,tyranids and necrons you would no doubt see a 'are mech armies dead?' thread.

Foot slogging forces key abilities are:-

Resilience
Numbers
Mobile infantry fire power

A valid foot slogging list must have at least two of these to be valid in all situations (key exception-the imperial guard infantry list from hell which is just really,really,really good at numbers :p ).

Foot slogging forces also require a large amount of forward planning, focus and tenacity right from the start of deployment through to the last roll of the game. If you setup poorly, or get distracted from your objective, or get depressed by taking large numbers of casualties then you are simply not a foot slogging general.

Mech forces require different skills. Patience, an ability to judge distances and a conservative play style. Initial setup, barring blocking LOS to your units, is not much of an issue and neither is being distracted by juicy targets of opportunity as you have enough speed to not worry about your objective until the last few turns.

Lastly mech forces tend to place less of a drain on the wallet, so are far more likely to be used by younger players after an cheep to build, forgiving army.

Once you get set in a particular play style it is difficult to change so we are probably now seeing the effect of many younger players maturing without learning the skills needed for foot-slogging.Those that do experiment will not be familiar with the focus and tenacity needed (not to mention the crappy unforgiving armour saves most foot sloggers get) so will most likely fail, perpetuating the 'foot sloggers are poor' myth.

Corax
08-04-2007, 13:36
It doesn't seem very long ago that people were going on about how there are hardly any vehicles being used in the 4th Ed because they had been nerfed. Suddenly the boot is on the other foot and everyone is extolling the virtues of vehicles... :wtf:

While I agree that 'Mobility-hammer' is the rule of the day, to suggest that vehicles are the best way to achieve that end is another matter entirely.

Since the inception of 4th Ed., the general concensus (as I have seen it) has been that vehicles are weak due to the prevalence of Lance, Melta, S9+, Tank Hunters, Rending, Monstrous Creatures, etc. This has meant that even AV14 is not much protection. Example - how often do you actually see a Land Raider these days?! Almost never. There was a thread recently asking when one should use an LR; (IMO) the answer is - when you want to give your opponent 250vp! :angel:

However, the weakness of (some) vehicles has been ofset slightly by the advantages of Fast vehicles and Skimmers that get Inv. saves or are hard to hit. While I can accept that there is value in the use of Eldar and Tau skimmers (and SM Speeders), as well as fast cheap vehicles like Ork trukks and DE Raiders, most of the other AV vehicles end up being too slow and too vulnerable to be of much use - unless you bring a lot of them.

The result of this situation (from what I have seen) is three distinct types of mobile army:

1. Skimmer heavy mobile armies - Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau
2. Infiltrating/Deep Striking infantry armies - SM, Chaos
3. Fleet - 'nids

Consequently, while vehicle use is fine for Eldar, DE and Tau, its really not a viable option for many other armies, as their vehicle choices have been hamstrung by their slowness and the prevalence of anti-armour weapons. To adapt to this situation, players have favoured the use of large amounts of Infiltrators and Deep Strikers to get close to the enemy without having to hoof it all the way across the battlefield. Or, they have found a way to move their infantry across the table at an accelerated rate - such as Fleet, Portal, etc.

IMO, armour remains rubbish unless it skims or is dirt cheap (and can be fielded in large numbers). Slow, heavily armoured units are just waiting to be killed by any one of a wide variety of nasty things.

Bottom Line: Mech is fine for those armies that can do it, but for everyone else, mobile infantry remains the best available option.

thorgrim
08-04-2007, 15:27
Not sure if this thread belongs here or in the Tactics forum, so Mods - please use your judgment and move accordingly.

As I've been watching the debate over on the "future of GW" and various DA codex threads, I've kind of gotten the sense that the newer codeces seem to be favoring mech-style lists. With the exception of C:Nids, it seems like most people are arguing that the optimal builds are mech-based. Certainly, mech-tau and mech-eldar are much bandied about and most of Gt coverage implies that mech-type armies are the dominate builds right now. (I would lump DP'ing marines as sort of an ultimate mech-type).

Does anybody else see this as a trend and what does it mean if anything?

I agree that mech style lists are becoming more common but that all the codexes allow for the construction of powerful varient lists. It seems (to me anyway) that GW have decided to make new codexes to better represent the style of warfare that the particular army uses. Eldar are fast but fragile, Marines can slug it out with the best of 'em etc.

Also i would point out that if you were to use one of the games variants Cities of death and the upcoming Apocalypse that the armies would change. I regularly play cities of death and most people that have played it using there standard 40k army have now edited thier army lists to take into account the big advantage that infantry have in such a setting. So yes the main lists are changing but to a style that allows a army to work well at the things that they should. And footsloggers aren't gonna be forgotten as long as Cities of death still exists.