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uatu13
09-04-2007, 09:21
Hey, I absolutely love the FW Greater Daemon models (have the Bloodthirster and KOS so far), but the rules for actually using them in a 40K game are terrible. To be "cute" they gave them points to match the sacred number of each chaos god and stats that don't even come close to matching this cost. To be honest they're not really anything more special than a regular Greater Daemon, and you can easily make a Daemon Prince for around 200 points which could kick them all over the board.

So, what I'm wondering is how would you fix the rules to actually make these great models something you'd ever use? Here's a few ideas I think are in the right direction:

-Give them several mass points like tyranid monsters.
-How about giving them immunity to instability tests in case the possessed model gets killed before the daemon shows up?
-Make them stand toe to toe with a titan, maybe some titan-killer upgrades? I think a bloodthirster should be able to cause some serious trouble to a warhound titan.
-Giving them much more improved stats would make sense; having a 700-900 point model that only has around 6-7 attacks and still needs a 3 to hit doesn't exactly inspire fear in the enemy.
-Even better would be some specific rules designed only for these models to really justify using them over a regular daemon prince or greater daemon. Maybe allow the Keeper Of Secrets the ability to change the enemy's deployment or to corrupt a character to it's side. Or, how about giving the Great Unclean One the ability to spread plagues throughout the enemies lines? And, really, the Bloodthirster should be the best thing in CC in the entire 40K universe, let's make the stats to match that fact!

Onisuzume
09-04-2007, 11:35
Personaly; I think they're fine as it is.
WS10 pretty much always makes you hit on a 3+, based on a chart that's been around for decades. So unless you'd give it a special rule that allows +1 to hit, I'd say no. (And afaik; only wfb has such rules)

The Strength/Toughness/Wounds are also fine imo.
Sure, they're big, but they're still daemons.

Attacks; Just because you're huge doesn't mean you automatically attack faster. (afaik, the opposite would be even more likely)

As for the KoS: (s)he already has stuff that a regular KoS doesn't have; all slaanesh minor psychic powers, some special daemonsword, and some other stuff.

As for making the Bloodthirster the best cc monster in the game; no.
I feel that the 'nid gargantuan creatures deserve that.

Just because Khorne is all about fighting doesn't mean that they have to be the best at it; since we could say the same for orks. (and orkses are never beat'n in battle, so how about a rule to reflect that? ;))

Lostanddamned
09-04-2007, 11:44
Simple - use them as regular Greater Deamons.

The rules are points efficent, balanced and playtested, and they are also a hell of a lot cheaper in an armylist.

Nothing says you have to use the FW rules.

Dreachon
09-04-2007, 11:58
To be honest they're not really anything more special than a regular Greater Daemon, and you can easily make a Daemon Prince for around 200 points which could kick them all over the board.

Your kidding right, a DP will not kick them over the table, they will kick him, An'ngrath just smahes him with so many attacks he's dead, KoS will ignore all your saves and hit before you do, GUO well good luck with boxing against his thoughness and number of wounds and oh try not to get wounded twice by him.

Askari
09-04-2007, 11:58
So you're saying use the normal Greater Daemon rules, for something that's about 3 times their size on the table... that's just making your Daemon ask to be assaulted by everyone and his mother...

Sekhmet
09-04-2007, 12:02
Personaly; I think they're fine as it is.
WS10 pretty much always makes you hit on a 3+, based on a chart that's been around for decades. So unless you'd give it a special rule that allows +1 to hit, I'd say no. (And afaik; only wfb has such rules)

Chart that's been around for decades? I'm pretty sure that in 3rd edition, the chart was different. If not 3rd edition, then 2nd edition, which I know it was different. But they're a far cry from decades old.

The KoS is waaay too powerful. Ignores invul and normal saves? God-like initiative? SIREN?!?!

uatu13
09-04-2007, 12:02
Yes, a DP could give any of these demons a run for their money. How are they going to actually do anything against it when they only have like 6-7 attacks that still would need a 3 or 4 to hit? Also, take into consideration that I can have about 3-4 of my DP's to just one of these FW GD's.

I think the rules for the FW GD don't even come CLOSE to justifying their extreme points costs. They could have made them "titan versions" of GD's, but instead all they did was make them slightly better versions of regular GD's. I know I can use them as regular GD's, but what fun is that? FW stuff is supposed to be over the top and interesting in mega battles, and these GD's are neither of these things (except in appearance and points cost).

uatu13
09-04-2007, 12:09
The KoS is waaay too powerful. Ignores invul and normal saves? God-like initiative? SIREN?!?!

BTW you can make a regular DP ignore both saves, just give him stature and a dreadaxe. You can make almost any regular DP with a MOS attack at almost the same I (well, effectively I7 with warp scream); how many things in this game have anything close that? Also, the FW GD can't have Siren, just the other crappy minor psychic powers (of which it can only use one per turn).

whiteshields1830
09-04-2007, 12:14
Yes, a DP could give any of these demons a run for their money. How are they going to actually do anything against it when they only have like 6-7 attacks that still would need a 3 or 4 to hit? Also, take into consideration that I can have about 3-4 of my DP's to just one of these FW GD's.

I think the rules for the FW GD don't even come CLOSE to justifying their extreme points costs. They could have made them "titan versions" of GD's, but instead all they did was make them slightly better versions of regular GD's. I know I can use them as regular GD's, but what fun is that? FW stuff is supposed to be over the top and interesting in mega battles, and these GD's are neither of these things (except in appearance and points cost).

OMG...not to be inpolite on this or anything... but lets analyse this shall we?
Yes the point cost might equal 3-4 DPs, but you cant use that many in a army can you (and i think DPs are one or 2 a army?). So that comparason is unjustifiable as you CANT have 3-4 DPs, as 1: its too overpowering (which says the same to the FW daemons btw) and 2: games wont be fun with4 beefed up tyrants.

The otherthing i would like to point out is you said FW is meant to have over the top rules? As far as i can tell, that would mean most people (other than your friends) will never play you. You already see cheesy lists, and people not playing against them. What makes u think that a over the top creature will make them play you?

and also, if its overpowering (and lets just say you can use it), that would mean money = glory. If you have more money, youre more willing to afford more powerful things, which does not make for a interesting game.


Also, the FW GD can't have Siren, just the other crappy minor psychic powers (of which it can only use one per turn).

dont tell me youre complaining about the 'once a turn' rule, no, you can use it infinite times....:rolleyes:

uatu13
09-04-2007, 12:21
Yes, FW models are supposed to be over the top. When you spend 666-888 points on a single model you need the opponent to think "holy crap, how can I ever kill that!". If someone took one of these guys against me I would be like "awesome, he pissed half his points away on something that isn't much scarier than a regular GD". No, money=glory, though points=better units. I know FW was trying to be "cute" with the whole chosen number thing, but all that did was screw up using the models in any real game.

Second, I was just making a point with comparing them to regular DP's. I know you can't have 4 in a normal game, but you can't really play one of the FW GD's effectively in a normal game either; it's more of a hinderence than a benefit. The point of the matter is they're WAY overpriced for what they do, and you could easily buy something to destroy it for half the points.

uatu13
09-04-2007, 12:22
dont tell me youre complaining about the 'once a turn' rule, no, you can use it infinite times....:rolleyes:

Well, that's how regular minor psychic powers work, you can use them once every phase. Apparently the GREATNESS of these demons is that they're crappier at using their own psychic powers than a frickin chaos sorcerer, LOL.

whiteshields1830
09-04-2007, 12:25
according to my knowledge i havent heard a single person complain about those daemons as:1: almost NO ONE uses them (not because they have point/rule issues) but because theyre blooody expensive.
2: its meant to be fun, not crazy competitive.
3: you lost with a FW GD didnt you ;)

Askari
09-04-2007, 12:27
I just want my Forge World Greater Daemon of Tzeentch... mmm 999points =)

uatu13
09-04-2007, 12:31
according to my knowledge i havent heard a single person complain about those daemons as:1: almost NO ONE uses them (not because they have point/rule issues) but because theyre blooody expensive.
2: its meant to be fun, not crazy competitive.
3: you lost with a FW GD didnt you ;)

1. Maybe no one buys them because their rules suck? I've seen people with gargantuan squiggoths, biotitans, warhound titans, and every type of plane out there. Why? Because the rules match the points. These guys just suck.

2. Yes, fun and competitive. I love how people use the word "fun" to be "has no way of being effective, but smile and take it". Orks are "fun", tzeentch is "fun", etc, LOL

3. No, I was putting my dudes together to paint just for fun and thought I'd like to use it in a game sometime, checked out the rules, and they're pure crap. Hence the point of this post which is to SUGGEST HOW TO FIX THE MESSED UP RULES, not chime in with the oh-so-original "it's fine the way it is".

studderigdave
09-04-2007, 12:42
i use the FW GUO alot with the EXP rules, and im not complaining AT ALL. he may be slow (most things nurgle are) but ive yet to have him die from combat. i once had to pull him off the table from instability damage when his host died, but the other 2 times he simply walked through everything.

game 1 vs, templars

GUO eats:

termie marshal
termie chaplain
5 assault termies
5 shooty termies
10+ templars
predator

wounds taken:2/10

game 2 vs, tyranids

GUO EATS

18 guants
6 ripper swarms
24 genestealers
broodlord
3 biovores
hive tyrant

wounds taken 3/10

im happy with the rules. and the points are very fluffy.

The Keeper of Secrets
09-04-2007, 12:45
To be quite honest 10 wounds is VERY unkillable and nurgle, so the GUO isn't that bad. And I did think that FW made the rules on coolness rather than game terms. Most games are 1500 pnts and, no-one is going to spend half they're army on 1 model.

whiteshields1830
09-04-2007, 12:47
1. Maybe no one buys them because their rules suck? I've seen people with gargantuan squiggoths, biotitans, warhound titans, and every type of plane out there. Why? Because the rules match the points. These guys just suck.

2. Yes, fun and competitive. I love how people use the word "fun" to be "has no way of being effective, but smile and take it". Orks are "fun", tzeentch is "fun", etc, LOL

3. No, I was putting my dudes together to paint just for fun and thought I'd like to use it in a game sometime, checked out the rules, and they're pure crap. Hence the point of this post which is to SUGGEST HOW TO FIX THE MESSED UP RULES, not chime in with the oh-so-original "it's fine the way it is".

1: No im sure no one buys them cause they cost a bucketload. And according to squiggoths etc, ive seem one of each of them. ONLY ONE! which isnt saying alot in terms of popularity. (although FW KoS are quite popular now - ive seen 2 of them)

2: Fun as in not to have a thing that "kicks the snot out of your opponent" and just maybe, MAYBE, something can at least kill it...say a GK squad etc (which matches the fluff tbh)

3: no comment there...you make a fair point about checking the rules out.

Joewrightgm
09-04-2007, 13:37
I think the GUO needs to be playtested a bit more, not sure if the KoS rules are official, but they could do with a tiny, and I mean miniscule amount of tweaking. I think the FW Blood Thirster is great for what it does.

my 2, punching out.

lack0fbettername
09-04-2007, 13:53
The KoS rules i think are offical, sense they apear in impieral armour updated 2006.
Ive never used them but from looking at the rules, they seam pretty beefy & i would pay the points for them. Also i dont have my book with me so this is all from memory.

If you have the daemonvessel with infiltrate & D. Chains, I can see these guys getting their points back in every game.


Make them stand toe to toe with a titan, maybe some titan-killer upgrades? I think a bloodthirster should be able to cause some serious trouble to a warhound titan

-I think he can, with 9+ attacks on the charge, if the titan didnt move he is autohitting, High Strenght + 2D6 = atleast 5 or so penitrating hits, he has wings so he can actualy attack against the back (instead of the leg armour rule) and the titans void shields dont work against Close combat.

Even if he doesnt kill the titan, the warhound only gets 1 attack back at WS1, ST6, and you still get your invuln.

My warhound one game shrugged off 7+ railgun shots, and your greater daemon has an ok chance of killing it in 1 turn of combat. What more do you want??


Giving them much more improved stats would make sense; having a 700-900 point model that only has around 6-7 attacks and still needs a 3 to hit doesn't exactly inspire fear in the enemy.

he Bloodthirster has the axe of khorne & +D3 attacks on the charge, plus i think counts as having 2 close combat weapons. So i could see him easily getting 12-13 attacks on the charge (more if you roll lucky)


...the Bloodthirster should be the best thing in CC in the entire 40K universe, let's make the stats to match that fact!

Just humor me, but what is actualy better then him at CC? Something may be able to kill him yes, a force weapon or whatever. But that doesnt make the grey knight "better."

Which stats do you have the most problems with?

Onisuzume
09-04-2007, 14:55
Chart that's been around for decades? I'm pretty sure that in 3rd edition, the chart was different. If not 3rd edition, then 2nd edition, which I know it was different. But they're a far cry from decades old.
2nd edition had a totaly different close-combat system.(read necromunda system)
Though I know for sure that it goes way back to 3rd edition fantasy. (which was when? during 1st edition 40k?)

Sildani
09-04-2007, 15:31
Forge World rules aren't "official" and unchangeable until they're published in a hardcover IA book. Until then, send e-mail to their rules department regarding the changes you'd like to see.

Champsguy
09-04-2007, 15:34
Most of the FW things are overpriced (not $$$-wise, but points-wise). Titans never pay for themselves. They're big sitting targets. The FW stuff is only good if your opponent takes a lot of big stuff. The Greater Demons are nice because they can hand a C'Tan his head. But really, any decent army will kill all the FW stuff before they make their points back. They're over-costed so that they don't dominate the game.

Now, those things will probably kick the crap out of "theme" armies. A guy who comes in with his meticulously painted IG all-mortar army is gonna get eaten by the FW Bloodthirster. But that's the case of any theme army. If you want point-efficiency, don't take the FW stuff. If you want some rules so you can bring out your giant thingy in big games, take the FW stuff.

kaimarion
09-04-2007, 15:48
well i have both a warhound titan and the new gd nurgle and have only used the warhound 2 times over the space of a year and havent used the gd nurgle why i hear you ask because people are scared of them and by the way if you ever thought about buying a warhound its worth it because (i know this will sound sad) but i wakeup in the morning and think to myself (still a year after buying it) yas i have a warhound and it looks so cool.
p.s its leg fell off at a tank battle

x-esiv-4c
09-04-2007, 15:53
Heck, I would just have like to see the GuO have nurgle's rot! How in hell did the testers miss that one???

x-esiv-4c
09-04-2007, 15:59
No one is going to take something that costs 777 points. If they would drop the stats a bit along with the points, people would probably end up fielding it. Or perhaps the 777 points includes a retinue of plaguebearers or something equally squidgy or stinky.

nooobie 69
09-04-2007, 16:02
the thing about the great unclean one in forge world i no it wont make its points back but its meant to be used in big games so that people think i no ill shoot my 2 squads of 10 man tactical squads at it with a missile launcher in each doing nothing (aka its there as a distraction) ok go to
(FW Open Day->Merged->easier to discuss in one thread) on page 7 its next to the picture of the reaver titan hull (the lord of change concept)

Brockafally
09-04-2007, 16:21
Are the rules for the Khorne GD legit or still in the experimental phase? I'm honestly thinking of doing up an army based on him. Tons of walking berzerkers and him as the backup support. I spend gobs of points on terminator squads/biker squads/stupid uber point wise DP's, I might as well try something different and throw in the Forgeworld GD plus berzerkers.

Zerosoul
09-04-2007, 16:33
...You want to make, say, the GUO - which has T9, making even powerfists wound on a 5+, 10 wounds, a 4+ invulnerable, takes away one attack from any model attacking it, has the equivalent of Implant Attacks, Strength 8, and due to the nature of deployment, is almost guaranteed to get into combat BETTER? Or the KoS, who will strike before any model in the game including Furious Charging Harlies and with the exception of charging Banshees, Doom-siren wielders, and some Wych combat drug results? And who ignores all saves, has freaking Siren, and a storm of attacks?

THe Forgeworld GD rules are essentially I-Win buttons. They should be used for the climax of scenariors and campaigns. It would be wicked cool to play through a scenario where, say, some Grey Knights have to break up some summoning ritual before this awesome Greater Daemon is brought into the universe or some such rot, but as far as I'm concerned that's what the point cost is balanced for.

DesolationAngel
09-04-2007, 16:47
-Make them stand toe to toe with a titan, maybe some titan-killer upgrades? I think a bloodthirster should be able to cause some serious trouble to a warhound titan.


Titans are appalling bad, any of the FW Greater Daemons could easily take one down in a turn.

A Titan is over 800pts, has weak void sheilds, which are easily taken down and against anything in combat is hit easily, penetrated easily and the damage stacks using the chart. Also its rubbish in combat, with a attack that would struggle to hit a gaunt, not only that but a titan can't shoot closer than 12", so even if you somehow don't rip it to pieces it wouldn't be able to shoot you anyway.

Even a normal Bloodthirster could take one down, let alone angroth.

But yes, many of the FW models appear to have been created without considering how they would do in the game. I took down a Titan with 4 Crisis Suits and 2 Hammerheads in a turn the other day, so many points for something that really isn't that good. Also with the FW greater daemons you have 888pts in angroth, that is a IC, so do a wound, get 444pts in the knowledge that he isn't a scoring unit.

To me I think most FW things should be cheaper in points and improved, as so many FW models aren't worth using and are more for fun games.

Lyinar
09-04-2007, 17:08
I actually view most Forgeworld models as DISPLAY pieces. The ones that have Games Workshop rules, or which can be substituted for Games Workshop models because they look FAR better, those are useful and indeed practical. The Specialist Games stuff is also useful and practical, because otherwise, you wouldn't have Aeronautica Imperialis, the massively upgraded Tau fleet in BFG, or Tau and Grey Knights in Epic.

Stuff like the Greater Daemons, Titans, etc... Those are for winning Golden Daemon competions, not tournaments.

RavenMorpheus
09-04-2007, 19:30
Hey, I absolutely love the FW Greater Daemon models (have the Bloodthirster and KOS so far), but the rules for actually using them in a 40K game are terrible. To be "cute" they gave them points to match the sacred number of each chaos god and stats that don't even come close to matching this cost. To be honest they're not really anything more special than a regular Greater Daemon, and you can easily make a Daemon Prince for around 200 points which could kick them all over the board.

So, what I'm wondering is how would you fix the rules to actually make these great models something you'd ever use? Here's a few ideas I think are in the right direction:

-Give them several mass points like tyranid monsters.
-How about giving them immunity to instability tests in case the possessed model gets killed before the daemon shows up?
-Make them stand toe to toe with a titan, maybe some titan-killer upgrades? I think a bloodthirster should be able to cause some serious trouble to a warhound titan.
-Giving them much more improved stats would make sense; having a 700-900 point model that only has around 6-7 attacks and still needs a 3 to hit doesn't exactly inspire fear in the enemy.
-Even better would be some specific rules designed only for these models to really justify using them over a regular daemon prince or greater daemon. Maybe allow the Keeper Of Secrets the ability to change the enemy's deployment or to corrupt a character to it's side. Or, how about giving the Great Unclean One the ability to spread plagues throughout the enemies lines? And, really, the Bloodthirster should be the best thing in CC in the entire 40K universe, let's make the stats to match that fact!

Aren't the models supposed to be a bridge between 40k and Inquisitor?

The models are huge so they can be used in both, the rules don't really matter it's still a Greater Deamon model so they follow the rules in the CSM codex, you wouldn't say that the rules for SM should be changed if the models suddenly got smaller would you?

The Keeper of Secrets
09-04-2007, 20:04
Not meaning to be rude or anything, but we all agree that the GW GD rules are fine, it's the FW rules we're discussing.

RavenMorpheus
09-04-2007, 20:09
Not meaning to be rude or anything, but we all agree that the GW GD rules are fine, it's the FW rules we're discussing.

Yeah ok I didn't realise there were any FW rules for them, not official ones anyway. But I thought I'd make the point that models from FW are supposed to be used with the GW rules unless there's an official entry in an Imperial Armour type book, and there isn't one for GD yet is there?

Anyway that's my input to this topic, just thought I'd pool my tiny bit of resource with the others who've posted in this thread.

And no you weren't being rude but you should mention the same point to Lyinar and probably a couple of others who have made similar points, in the interests of fairness.

lack0fbettername
09-04-2007, 20:27
I would say that the keeper of secrets & blood thirster are offical.

They have rules in "Imperial Armour Update 2006"

Someone up above stated that they arnt offical unless printed in a Hardback imperial armour book, but ive never read anything to support this. If someone would care to enlighten me on where this is writen i would be glad to change my opinion.

uatu13
09-04-2007, 21:29
I actually view most Forgeworld models as DISPLAY pieces.

I do agree with this for the most part, have you ever tried transporting one of these things? They're so fragile it isn't even funny. However, if they still bother to make rules for them those rules should make sense.


i reacon thier rules are fine fw great unclean one:
******FW Stats removed***********

I think you just kind of proved my point with that analysis. For 622 points you get more WS (which it doesn't really need since it already hits most things on a 3), I3 vs 2 (which isn't going to win you any battles as far as I know), so the really 622 points is paying for +1s, +3t, +4 w, and a few abilities! Last time I checked this isn't even CLOSE to being worth it. Would you buy this set of stuff for a character for 622 points?

I do agree that the GUO is virtually unkillable, but it's also almost virtually impossible to earn it's points back in any sort of normal game. Like all the other FW GD's it really doesn't have that many attacks, and still needs to hit on like a 3-4, so it's not really doing that much damage a turn.

Yes, the FW GD's are nifty, but NOT FOR THEIR POINTS COST, which is why I think the rules are screwed up. If they were in the 300-400 points ranges you'd have yourself a valid point. For their points they're really not much scarier than most of the monstrous creatures out there, and can EASILY be killed by most stuff of the same points value (ie 666-888 points worth of fire dragons, daemon princes, snipers, wraithguard, genestealers, daemonettes, well, anything).

I just don't think they pack the power they should. Here's some more ideas that would be good and add some twists to the battles.

-Make them all ignore invulnerable saves. Do you really see a force field standing up to the strongest warp-spawned monsters out there?
-Give them all a chosen number of their daemons for free and allow them to summon off the GD as if they had a daemonic icon (not scattering, automatic, etc).
-The GUO is OK with damage because of it's high T and W, but the other GD's seriously need mass points or higher T or W. What they have now just isn't cutting it.
-For the KOS give her the ability to alter the enemies deployment (sort of a wisper in the ear thing like that assassin has, but on a larger scale). Also, maybe a psychic power that allows you to make units attack itself or be corrupted over to Slaanesh (but try to fight it in subsequent turns by taking LD tests or something). Also, I think she should affect the LD of enemies in general (maybe like the soulless rule of the Culexus assassin or something); her presence should be pretty tempting to enemies that aren't designed for this kind of threat (ie fearless)
-For the Bloodthirster, seriously, this guy needs to be a CC terror. Give him like 15 attacks. He still needs a 3 to hit against most stuff, which is just pitiful for this nasty monster. Make him drive other unis around him into blood frenzy, maybe automatically give them the D6 frenzy movement and reroll hits on a charge or something (or feel no pain). I think the presence of a elder GD of your god would change how the entire army reacts, especially against crazed cult members.
-For the GUO they seriously need to bring out the whole "plague carrier" feel. How about giving it nurgle's rot that wounds on a 5 and then infects the enemy and can be spread throghout the ranks (wounded units then become carriers for nurgle's rot)? Also, I think the GUO should be able to poop out like D3 nurglings a turn similarly to a tomb spyder and scarabs (on a 1 take a wound or something), this dude's supposed to be a big walking sack of nurglings and ****, let's make it this way. Finally, I'd make models in CC with the GUO need to take T tests or take wounds or something. He just doesn't have many attacks for it's points, but it would make sense for a a big sack of diseases to cause some trouble with things close to it.

The Keeper of Secrets
09-04-2007, 21:33
A G R E E D

t-tauri
09-04-2007, 21:36
Stats for Forgeworld GD and a quantity of spam removed. Please do not post complete stat lines or point values from any GW publication. It breaks GW IP and leads to contact from GW legal.

Comparison and small quotes for expanatory purposes are fine. Entire stat lines are not.

Can I also remind new users to consider their post before they hit "reply."

t-tauri

The Warseer Inquisition.

zendral
09-04-2007, 22:51
The stats for all the greater daemons are fine. Cannot complain there. What worries me is some of the abilities.
This may be odd because I am a Tzeentch fan, but I must say the great unclean one needs more work. The stats are great...but the abilites bug me.
1.No Nurgles Rot.....wth?
2.Not immune to plague knife....again wth?
3.Master sorcorer means having only 2 mediocre minor nurgle powers....again WTH?

I am thankful that the flame move he can pull off is not a psychic power, but giving it heavy flamer stats is....a bit boring. Personally, I would rather have him use wind of chaos which is more appropriate.

I am eagerly awating the LOC (999pts holy meatnuggets batman!), but if having a couple minor powers for the GUO means being a "master sorceror", then I am greatly worried about the psychic abilities of a LOC. I just hope his powers are not just cut and pasted from the current dex. Maybe some new abilities or just use some from the next chaos dex.

Other than that, I have read some complaints on stats for the bloodthirster and KOS. These guys are uber enough and being killed by a force weapon (to me) represents those rare heroic moments where the impossible is acheived against massive odds. These guys are fine. I just don't think a GUO should be killed by his own plague knife...which he is not immune to currently. But like I talked about above...maybe rework the psychic abilities for the KOS and GUO.

Brockafally
09-04-2007, 23:56
having never read the rules myself, but doesn't the Khorne GD have the collar of khorne? Thereby making him immune to instant-kills from force weapons?

zendral
10-04-2007, 00:03
No he does not. Bloodthirsters were never famed for having the collar. However, I beleive they should have it but they never do because of a possible balance issue.

Zedric
10-04-2007, 10:07
(and orkses are never beat'n in battle, so how about a rule to reflect that? ;))
Seconded. :D

Thanatos_elNyx
10-04-2007, 11:38
he Bloodthirster has the axe of khorne & +D3 attacks on the charge, plus i think counts as having 2 close combat weapons. So i could see him easily getting 12-13 attacks on the charge (more if you roll lucky)

I haven't seen those rules, but do they have a rule that lets them ignore the cap of 10 attacks?

Dreachon
10-04-2007, 12:50
The extra attacks don't count towards the cap as their not part of his profile, same whith the extra atatck you get from charging or such.
It even says this in the description of the axe of khorne in the chaos codex, It's possible to get infinete attacks as long as you keep rolling attacks.

Thanatos_elNyx
10-04-2007, 13:38
Don't they usually say "+1" Attacks, and therefore are added to your base attacks and are therefore subject to the cap?

Is there a universal consensus or an FAQ?

p.s. I guess I should take this to Rules but if someone has a concise answer it may not be required. Ta.

lack0fbettername
10-04-2007, 13:49
My IA book is at home
I think he has 7 Base, +1 for 2x close combat weapons, +D3 When Charging

Means he will get 9-11 swings, but Even if it does CAP him at 10. Thats still his average number of attacks.

Krog Ironclaw
11-04-2007, 03:53
To be quite honest 10 wounds is VERY unkillable and nurgle, so the GUO isn't that bad. And I did think that FW made the rules on coolness rather than game terms. Most games are 1500 pnts and, no-one is going to spend half they're army on 1 model.

Not true. I once used Zacharias the Everliving in a 2000 point game at the shop. He's over 1000 points.

But thats Fantasy, and I think I lost, or it mightve been a draw, I dont remember.

Point is....I did it once.

HalfEvil333
11-04-2007, 05:55
Not true. I once used Zacharias the Everliving in a 2000 point game at the shop. He's over 1000 points.

But thats Fantasy, and I think I lost, or it mightve been a draw, I dont remember.

Point is....I did it once.

I've done similar before. Lord Kroak (over 1200 pts. alone) in 2000, and really over the top retinues in 40k. Sometimes its fun to use over the top units in inappropiate point sized games.

I don't know the rules for the Bloodthirster, but i'd gladly pay the 700+ points for the GUO and 600+ for the KoS. A beast with 6 I8 attacks that ignore all saves and a wall with 10 T9 wounds? Yes please!

The Keeper of Secrets
11-04-2007, 10:08
Not true. I once used Zacharias the Everliving in a 2000 point game at the shop. He's over 1000 points.

But thats Fantasy, and I think I lost, or it mightve been a draw, I dont remember.

Point is....I did it once.

Granted, a few huge games may involve them, but they clearly aren't designed for your average game. And I still stand by that FW made them with ubercoolnes in mind.

Plus, If they did give them ultrakilly abilities and all stats 10 (cep't armour save) to make them worth the points (I heard a rumour that on a 4+ the LoC steals your opponent's next turn), than there would be very little piont playing against them, because they would Just. Not. Die.

Ever.

The_Outsider
11-04-2007, 18:11
Granted, a few huge games may involve them, but they clearly aren't designed for your average game. And I still stand by that FW made them with ubercoolnes in mind.

Plus, If they did give them ultrakilly abilities and all stats 10 (cep't armour save) to make them worth the points (I heard a rumour that on a 4+ the LoC steals your opponent's next turn), than there would be very little piont playing against them, because they would Just. Not. Die.

Ever.

QFT.

FW GD are simply cool with some abilities ot match their sacred number points cost.

Just imagine if forge world got their grubby little hands on the C'tan, I think even the greater daemons would look weak.....

Onisuzume
11-04-2007, 18:48
QFT.

FW GD are simply cool with some abilities ot match their sacred number points cost.

Just imagine if forge world got their grubby little hands on the C'tan, I think even the greater daemons would look weak.....
Just wait till they'd do a dominatrix, that would make a C'Tan scared.

As for the LoC stealing an opponent's turn; I doubt it.
It'd be a quick way for most people to ban it outright.

The Keeper of Secrets
12-04-2007, 11:35
Sorry, QFT??

7thOffensive
12-04-2007, 15:26
quoted for truth.