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Josef Bugman
11-04-2007, 17:57
When I Looked In A WD I Found That The Deathwatch Kill-Teams Cannot Be Used By Dark Angels Or Black Templars. Does Anyone Know Why?

Tom_ep
11-04-2007, 18:05
The Dark Angels for one are too scared of any "outsider" finding out their "secret", which is the splintergroup of the Fallen rampaging about ...

Black Templars: i dunno really ...

jobi
11-04-2007, 18:06
If you read the article it says something to the affect "These can only be used by Codex Armies...The others already have enough special benefits."

They didn't want to give special armies another bonus on top of their other benefits.

Ian Argent
11-04-2007, 18:08
And then they can be taken by any random traited force. Sorry - that chaps me a little.

Lostanddamned
11-04-2007, 18:11
Black Templar forces are even more separate to the command of the Imperium than most Chapter forces, and so it is hard for a Templar army to request or be assigned a Kill Team

Rider-Of-Kurnous
11-04-2007, 18:11
yes it says that they are employed by all chapters but other chapters that have their own book have plenty of extras already

Onisuzume
11-04-2007, 18:49
And then they can be taken by any random traited force. Sorry - that chaps me a little.
The rules were out before the 4th ed. C:SM.
So that point it moot.

Thoth62
11-04-2007, 19:06
That's just the way it is though. Is there anyone here who actually uses them in regular games?

Rider-Of-Kurnous
11-04-2007, 19:10
i will do with my cadians after the summer

philbrad2
11-04-2007, 19:23
Deathwatch have been pulled back to 'Codex Chapters Only" as far as I'm aware. GW have these in the original DW rules. Last tweak of these rules around Codex: Tyrands has them back to being drawn form Codex chapters as far as I recall.

PhilB
:chrome:

Joewrightgm
11-04-2007, 19:24
not only are the Dark Angels leary of outsiders, but they dislike any inquisition presence; which is funny, because the new veteran sprue has a shoulder pad that says "Cestus Mortis" on it. Guess that means they don't mind forwarding volunteers, but don't like it when they come around.

t-tauri
11-04-2007, 19:29
There have been three printings of the rules IIRC. The first allowed them to codex chapters, the second to all chapters. The third (and presumably the ones which count now) reverted to the wording used in the first printing. Good old GW.

Ian Argent
11-04-2007, 20:08
Yeah - codex chapters only because "divergent" chapters get all the cool toys. That's fine - but in 4th ed "codex" chapters can get mroe special rules than "divergent" chapters. It's what the rules say, but I can still be ticked about it...

Shrike30
11-04-2007, 20:21
Fluffwise...

DA's wouldn't want to risk exposing their dirty little secrets to the Imperium.
BT's operate on crusades... Kill Teams get shipped in for specific tasks, and having them along for the entirety of a crusade makes little sense.
SW's have a pretty solid command system... the wolf lord or the battle leader is in charge, and the various priests do nifty stuff too. Having an outsider giving orders wouldn't sit well.
BA's... who knows, maybe they're worried that the DW will report the degree to which they're deviating to the Inquisition, and their entire gene line will get mothballed?

Ian Argent
11-04-2007, 20:28
Well, recall that now, as well as between the printing of the inquisition codices and the 4th ed DA FAQ, DA could take INQ allies. They are no longer "never co-operate with Inq" (which was an IMHO odd thing for the 4th ed FAQ to say, given the info in the Inq codices). Like I said - I live with it, but the stated rationale (which is not that the divergent chapters don't provide troops to DW - they do, but that they don't get the special DW rules because they already have special rules) makes no sense in light of the 4th ed C: SM and traited marines. Not that I expect it to change, either.

Brother_Falco
12-04-2007, 19:29
Perhaps it's just as GW say, the variant codecii get enough cool toys anyway?
Saying that traited armies being able to get them is unfair is ridiculous, you'd have the UM the only C:SM army able to use them then, would you?
Frankly, yes, C:BT, C:SW and C:BA have enough variant and interesting units that the DW /also/ showing up would be excessive.
I'll cut you some slack though, after all, you're one of those poor DA people who need all the help they can get ;P

Ian Argent
12-04-2007, 19:54
My point is - traied marines get AS MANY cool toys as DA or BA (who are MUCH less variant than a Major Deviance chapter). Since the rules were written in 3ed, where Codex Space Marines was effectively codex Ultramarines (no traits) I don't have a problem with the rationale taken in cotext of 3ed. My gripe with it is that the stated rationale is no longer true. I don't expect anything ot be done about it until a hypothetical Inquisition codex - as just about the last of the Chapter Approved articles to still be kicking.

I originally posted because someone said it was because the DA don't want people poking in their business - which while true is not the reason they don't get Deathwatch. They don't get Deathwatch for a game balance reason. The game balance reason is no longer "correct" with the release of traits, but it's still the reason DA and BA don't get Deathwatch, despite fluff putting Deathwatch Marines in both chapters (after they serve their terms).

superknijn
12-04-2007, 20:01
Since when do traited chapters get Combat Squad and the Ravenwing (DA), or Furious Charge for the whole army and the Death Company (BA), Bolt pistol and CCw marines with scouts mixed in (BT), special unit types (UM) or totally different unit types (SW) ? Really, compared to those armies, traited ones don´t ´get as much stuff´.

Ian Argent
12-04-2007, 20:10
Have you looked at what you can do with major divergence? The restriction of "from codex space marines only" amde sense in the light of codex space marines having no special rules. But you can have Deathwatch in a Lysanderwing army, or in an army with BP/CCW (albeit without scouts mixed in as well), in an army that entirely infinltrates, in a army with Bikes as troops AND elites, etc. Traited marines can equal AND exceed divergence and special rules of the BA and DA at least.

kane40k
12-04-2007, 20:22
That's just the way it is though. Is there anyone here who actually uses them in regular games?

i have, i found them pretty cool. they were overkill form my oppnent though they owned him! it was againsed a tau force.

also for a bit of a laugh we put them with some gry knights and battle sisters in a imperial guard army. again it was overkill!

they are pretty damn good depentin on the ammunition types they are given.

although it is quite fun using them in an actual game of "kill team". i dont actualy have modles that look like death watch i just use random modles with my opponents permition:angel: .

ancient_conflict
13-04-2007, 00:13
erm the inquisition is not known of its open minded ness and at last check the BT have been known to leave a crusade as soon as a Inqusitor turns up
the DA well its been said
BA erm well i dont think they would want the inqusition to get word of their "problem"
SW since when have the sons of russ ever listened to anyone unless they said"nice puppy, now you see those over there, go Kill"
and with the traits they do cause drawbacks on the chapter using them.

also on another point i thought IG could use them???
and also aren't they a HQ Choice????

Gutlord Grom
13-04-2007, 00:44
[QUOTE=Ian Argent;1464757]My point is - traied marines get AS MANY cool toys as DA or BA (who are MUCH less variant than a Major Deviance chapter).[QUOTE]

Yes, because Command Squads all with power weapons and jump packs, and Death Company aren't special rules and toys And then theirs the free Furious Assault for BA along with over charged engines. I don't get these in traits.

And of course, we also get Terimator Companies, and a special Bike Character for our bike units. Oh and free bolt pistols and grenades. Or cheaper Rhinos. Or a first turn Terminator Assault. I don't get these in traits.

Who get even more unit choices and in some cases better ones, with almost no restrictions.



Yes these things, are the exact same number of cool choicesas traits which cost an **** load of points and two disadvantages which restrict are unit choices.

Ian Argent
13-04-2007, 01:17
Do both traited marines and BA/DA get "special rules" that non-traited marines do not get? The stated rationale for only codex space marines forces getting access to deathwatch is because the other chapters get "plenty of extras". Traited marine chapters get plenty of extras too...

I would have to argue that DA anway, do not "get even more unit choices and in some cases better ones, with almost no restrictions." DA got a more restrictive unit choice than C: SM, remember? No veteran skills, etc...

This is becoming a flamewar not appropriate to the original post; I'm going to redirect it slightly. The rules allow any force "chosen from Codex Space Marines" to use Deathwatch, and that's all there is to it. They also note "Deathwatch are recruited from all different chapters...Only Codex Deathwatch are covered by this article". So while I can't have Deathwatch rules appying to the squad - there's nothing preventing me from modelling/painting a Veterans Squad out of Codex Dark Agenls up as my "Deathwatch Veterans", though I wouldn't (as noted) get any additional benefit out of it. The posters who say that variant chapters wouldn't have deathwatch vets for various reasons need to read the article - they do; it's just that their own chapter special rules override the Deathwatch benefits.

themagister
13-04-2007, 03:01
daerk angels are crazy "pure" oriented, they would consider them "unholy" or some crap, and templars are suspicious of outsiders, it makes sense.

Ian Argent
13-04-2007, 03:54
daerk angels are crazy "pure" oriented, they would consider them "unholy" or some crap, and templars are suspicious of outsiders, it makes sense.

I think you got this backwards. At any rate, the background has fairly consistently stated that the DA (and probably the BT) do provide marines to Deathwatch teams.

exsulis
13-04-2007, 04:08
As I recall from the second printing or so it stated BA, SW, and DA all supply recruits to the DW but the DW rules only covered the "Codex" chapters, and they felt that chapters with their own codex didn't need any extras.