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View Full Version : Why is OgreKingdom's Giant exceptionally not Stubborn?



him_15
11-04-2007, 21:50
Just played against an Ogre Kingdom with my Lizardmen. I've Beaten the Ginat with my Jungle Swarm and I was suprised that when he said his Giant isn't Stubborn. He then failed the break test and his Ginat fleed away from my litte lizards!
So i am just wondering why would OK's Ginat isn't Stubborn?

Llew
11-04-2007, 21:52
Probably because the background says that they've been beaten into submission by the ogres.

They have already proven themselves non-invincible.

Marcel
11-04-2007, 22:00
SLAVEgiant. slaves havent always been the most courageous types, except for a few notable exceptions.

him_15
11-04-2007, 22:09
I see, but does he cost less than other races's Giant?

Häxjägare
11-04-2007, 22:38
Yeah, I think he is 25points cheeper or something like that.

Marcel
11-04-2007, 22:47
hes 175 pts

TheWarSmith
12-04-2007, 00:52
Also note that intead of "thumping with club", he "throttles with chain", at least i think those are the terms. The only difference is that the chain attack invokes a S(or is it T?) test instead of an I test.

Multifarious
12-04-2007, 00:52
Which makes it much worse.

laughingman
12-04-2007, 04:23
The giant is much worse that the other giants. It simply sucks lol[dice0]

TheWarSmith
12-04-2007, 04:29
Isn't the giant necessary in order to get the +1S title, or is it the other way around?

DaBrode
12-04-2007, 05:21
Isn't the giant necessary in order to get the +1S title, or is it the other way around?


Yes it's necessary.

intellectawe
12-04-2007, 05:58
Yes it's necessary.

which makes the ogre kingdoms have the most expensive crappy magical item I think. Nearly 200 points for an item that grants +1 strength. How crappy.

TheWarSmith
12-04-2007, 06:24
well, you do also get a giant. It just can't be thrown at random units like OG/chaos giants can

hivetyrant333
12-04-2007, 11:18
I'm guessing not, but can OK take a DoW Giant instead?

Avian
12-04-2007, 12:22
Nope, they cannot.
(if they could, very few people would bother with the Slavegiant)

I believe the Tomb Kings are the only ones that can get a DoW Giant in addition to their own type of Giant.

Jonahmaul
12-04-2007, 13:11
Which is stupid, why would an army of living dead suddenly find a living giant out in the desert instead of just getting their liches to construct another bone giant?! I really don't like DoW, I think they're the worst idea ever & should be stopped completely (except as an army of their own).

I've been thinking of starting either a TK or OK army & didn't realise that OK giants were so rubbish! I don't really like the fluff or the OK army though after reading the book so think I'm going to go for the TK (which I have been meaning to do since they came out!).

Tutore
12-04-2007, 13:47
They are much weaker than ordinary giant. I wouldn't use a rare choice for such a thing. There are maneaters for example, much more useful. And stubborn.

Sanjuro
12-04-2007, 21:38
I really don't like DoW, I think they're the worst idea ever & should be stopped completely (except as an army of their own).


Yeah, because it makes no sense at all that Elector Counts of The Empire would hire mercenaries to fight for them. I mean, there's not even a historical precedent for something like that! It's just way out there!

ZeroTwentythree
12-04-2007, 21:53
Which is stupid, why would an army of living dead suddenly find a living giant out in the desert instead of just getting their liches to construct another bone giant?! I really don't like DoW, I think they're the worst idea ever & should be stopped completely (except as an army of their own).


Haha. Maybe they've hired him and are just waiting for the meat to fall off his bones? At least it's slightly less strange than TK hiring a bunch of halflings. Or norse.



Yeah, because it makes no sense at all that Elector Counts of The Empire would hire mercenaries to fight for them. I mean, there's not even a historical precedent for something like that! It's just way out there!

Especially consdiering the ogres, halflings and dwarves used to be in the actual Empire army list itself. (I'm a bit biased, since Marienburg armies are mercenaries + Empire stuff.)

I like having the DoW options, and would like to see a little more variety. It just takes a little bit of self-policing for people to not be totally ridiculous about it. (And keeping in mind that ridiculous armies can be made completely within most army books, without DoW anyway.)

Also, the "giants for everyone" rule allows players & modelers to use it for most generic "big dumb monster" types.

skavenguy13
13-04-2007, 03:38
Nope, they cannot.
Please post a proof to end the debate on this. I never got an official answer.

Ivan Stupidor
13-04-2007, 03:52
Please post a proof to end the debate on this. I never got an official answer.

The Dogs of War Giant Rules on the GW website (here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/dogsofwar/giant-rules/1/)) list which armies can take the Giant. Ogre Kingdoms is not on that list.

Ganymede
13-04-2007, 06:24
Slavegiants are actually pretty nice troops within the context of the ogre list. They are capable support units that can easily combo-charge in with a unit of ogres.

Tarian
13-04-2007, 08:32
As for Strength vs. Initiative tests, as a HE player, I would MUCH rather take an Initiative test as opposed to a Strength test.

Avian
13-04-2007, 09:07
As for Strength vs. Initiative tests, as a HE player, I would MUCH rather take an Initiative test as opposed to a Strength test.
The test only applies to big stuff, which in the HE army would be chariots, eagles, griffons and dragons, all of which have quite high Toughness.

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-04-2007, 09:31
Yup, thats the problem. The attack works against big stuff only, and it's changed from a stat they traditionally is weak in, Initiative, to one they are traditionally strong in, Thoughness. So it's the same attack, only with a (much) worse chance of actually doing anything.

Jonahmaul
13-04-2007, 11:59
Haha. Maybe they've hired him and are just waiting for the meat to fall off his bones? At least it's slightly less strange than TK hiring a bunch of halflings. Or norse.

Especially consdiering the ogres, halflings and dwarves used to be in the actual Empire army list itself. (I'm a bit biased, since Marienburg armies are mercenaries + Empire stuff.)

I like having the DoW options, and would like to see a little more variety. It just takes a little bit of self-policing for people to not be totally ridiculous about it. (And keeping in mind that ridiculous armies can be made completely within most army books, without DoW anyway.)

Also, the "giants for everyone" rule allows players & modelers to use it for most generic "big dumb monster" types.


Yeah, because it makes no sense at all that Elector Counts of The Empire would hire mercenaries to fight for them. I mean, there's not even a historical precedent for something like that! It's just way out there!

Ok, I'll concede that Empire (and possibly Dwarfs) would be likely to hire mercenaries so you have a valid point there but in general I don't like the fact that armies are able to take units which basically take away their weaknesses. I think that the armies are unique with each having it's good & bad points and people should play to the strengths of the army they have rather than just taking a DoW option.

Sanjuro
13-04-2007, 12:12
I think that the armies are unique with each having it's good & bad points and people should play to the strengths of the army they have rather than just taking a DoW option.

Do you find that this is something that often happens?

TheWarSmith
13-04-2007, 12:25
Ok, I'll concede that Empire (and possibly Dwarfs) would be likely to hire mercenaries so you have a valid point there but in general I don't like the fact that armies are able to take units which basically take away their weaknesses. I think that the armies are unique with each having it's good & bad points and people should play to the strengths of the army they have rather than just taking a DoW option.

I agree completely. DoW/RoR can SOMETIMES be a cool answer for people that have a very characterful army and can explain the mercenary very well. But the chaos player that takes cannons?..............

Sanjuro
13-04-2007, 12:35
But the chaos player that takes cannons?..............

Yeah, I actually did that once. Once. And I admit that I am a cheesy bastard. :angel:

Jonahmaul
13-04-2007, 13:18
I only play against two friends at the moment when I am back home from university & we always play without DoW but I did see many a cheesy army when I was a red-shirt. A big part of the hobby for me is the fluff & collecting and painting a caracterful army so when people use DoW it does against the character & spoils an army for me. Anyways, kinda going off topic here!

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-04-2007, 13:46
I agree completely. DoW/RoR can SOMETIMES be a cool answer for people that have a very characterful army and can explain the mercenary very well. But the chaos player that takes cannons?..............

You mean outside of the hellcannon? ;)

Don't know, why shouldn't Chaos be able to secure the service of some siege weaponry if they had need of it?

But then, I'd also like to see some 'Engines of Khorne' return

Tarian
13-04-2007, 13:47
Actually... I'm quite sure HE can't take cannons, or and Dwarf mercenaries at all. Though I do really like Brettonia's reasoning for never taking DoW.

TheWarSmith
13-04-2007, 13:50
Bretonnians are too proud to ever hire mercenaries. I believe that's the unexplained reason.

The chaos hellcannon is MUUUUCHHH different than a standard DoW cannon. Both in point costs, # of rare slots, general use, and feel in the army. Also, that can ONLY be taken in mortal led armies.

shen-yong
13-04-2007, 14:04
I agree completely. DoW/RoR can SOMETIMES be a cool answer for people that have a very characterful army and can explain the mercenary very well. But the chaos player that takes cannons?..............

Oh dear gods of eternal and endless whining, then good sirs probably you are the ones who would never-ever hire a plumber to repair your dripping sink (if you can't do it yourselves) because it wouldn't be fair against the bugs in your house.:rolleyes:

The whole point in professionalism (including mercenary career) is to lend your knowledge, experience and practice in your trade to ones who can't or don't want to do the thing that they hire you for.

And although WFB is a fantasy game, there are loads of historical examples when mercenaries were hired to do the bloody work at hand.

Army list are to provide possibilities inbetween their limits. It is ever the person who makes his/her decision how to use them. Blaming the whole system for one's "fault" might be a bit shortsighted behaviour. And yes, chaos has its own cannon as well, so please stop coming up whit this single argument all the time!

Rants over.

TheWarSmith
13-04-2007, 14:27
and magically you compare a game to real life. Hmmm, I won't begin to deconstruct that argument. I also didn't know plumbers were enemy of bugs, but I learn something new everyday.

I know and agree that hiring mercenaries in the historical(and modern) instances occurs and with good reason. But comparing historical conflicts with a game of plastic men is a bit different. Real war is not fought for fun(unless you're the president of the USA), so you do anything to win. Warhammer is NOT real war, and if you lose because you didn't hire that mercenary cannon in a force that wasn't designed to have cannons, then you still wake up the next morning.

If you're going to compare warhammer to history, I'd point out that throughout history, generals typically don't have choices on what army to field. They take what they can get.

I pick and enjoy my army because it has strengths and weaknesses. Filling in the holes that were designed for your army with mercs seems like a cheap way out of your intended disadvantage in my opinion.

Sherlocko
13-04-2007, 15:11
Also, putting cannons in a chaos-army is not a way to decrease it weakness but a bigger way do decrease it strenghts.

Multifarious
13-04-2007, 15:33
I also didn't know plumbers were enemy of bugs, but I learn something new everyday.

I thought that it was turtles and flowers.

Sanjuro
16-04-2007, 12:31
Also, putting cannons in a chaos-army is not a way to decrease it weakness but a bigger way do decrease it strenghts.

Too true. I do not recommend anyone to do this if they are actually trying to be competitive, and aren't doing it just for the hell of it, as I was.

Chaos is a fast-assault army and should be used as such.

kaimarion
16-04-2007, 12:46
but it damn murder when your warriors are marching up the field then get blasted by archers or cannons.....thats why some people might use cannons.

Sanjuro
16-04-2007, 12:50
but it damn murder when your warriors are marching up the field (emphasis mine)

See, that's your mistake, right there. :)

Shimmergloom
16-04-2007, 16:21
I just wish that GW was more creative with DoW in general.

Take cannons for instance, since that's what we are talking about.

A DoW cannon for a greenskin army should not be the same as one for an empire army.

Say an empire army hires a DoW cannon. It should cost the same as an Imperial cannon, but only do the D3 wounds instead of D6. It costs the same, because the Empire is paying mercs and not using their own cannon.

Greenskins though would get it for 85pts. But it's not crewed by humans. Instead it's really a looted cannon crewed by goblins. Being that it's looted,t he goblins dont' know what they are doing and if it misfires, it blows up on a 1 or 2 instead of just a 1.

Chaos could also have looted cannons, but they are crewed by Chaos Dwarfs and costing much more than a regular DoW cannon.

You could do that with most of the DoW units. Make them unique for each army that takes them. Crossbows in a HE army? They're dwarfs and the dwarfs refuse to use the ld of the HE general.

Fast cav in an Ogre army? They are hobgoblins who join an Ogre army with the hope of plunder.

Hulkster
16-04-2007, 16:28
way to over complicate a system Shimmergloom ;p

what you a describing there in some cases are not typical mercs. looted weapons of any type are not mercs. anything like that would be in the main army list

most mercs are going to be human, there will be a few select units that are not human, but they are regiments of renown

sorry but I think your system is over complicated and TBH not even that fluffy

Sanjuro
16-04-2007, 19:02
... and thus, the Hulkster spake. :)

Who can say against Hulk Hogan?

Brother Siccarius
16-04-2007, 21:44
I agree completely. DoW/RoR can SOMETIMES be a cool answer for people that have a very characterful army and can explain the mercenary very well. But the chaos player that takes cannons?..............

I chaosified mine and had chaos dwarves manning it. It looked great next to my halfling hotpot which used halflings as the fulcrum for it's trebuchet and was manned by marauders. I used them to soften up shooty armies I kept facing, and because my Tzeentch warriors kept getting blown away or bogged down by crap units before they could get to grips with an enemy (answer, kill the units that bog me down with ranged weaponry).