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Lord Gordonis
12-04-2007, 10:11
This is what I am taking to local tournament this weekend:

Thrandruil
Erestor
Haldir w/cloak, bow, armour
legolas w/armour, cloak

15 x WE warriors w/cloak, throwing daggers, blade 225pts
7 x WE warriors w/cloak, bow 98pts

Total: 693pts

So what do you think??

cheers LG!

Sniper Kelly
12-04-2007, 13:24
Personally I'd drop one of the heroes and take more WE warriors. Erestor only has one Might point and Legolas and Haldir are rather fragile, so you could struggle if the enemy gets too close.

Also, I definitely think you should get some spears for your warriors. I like throwing weapons, but spears are more useful in a tight spot.

Good luck for the tournament!

Gondorian
12-04-2007, 14:18
Specially mirkwood spears as they can support or shield depending on the situation.

Lord Gordonis
12-04-2007, 18:08
I dont like them as much personally, I thought about about putting the spears in but then I wouldnt have enough points to spend on the WE with bows you see.

I thought that if I took WE I could report on how they do, plus they are a specialist force as well and quite hard to play with so that was my thinking when taking a force to the tounament. I'll report back on how they do and any key moments in the games as well.

Cheers for the comments!
keep the comments coming!

LG!

Gondorian
13-04-2007, 11:48
Well a mirkwood spear cost the same as an elven blade so you could swap a few blades for spears. However, its your army so go with what you want.
How are you planning to use this force, what style and tactics are you thinking of going for?

Lord Gordonis
13-04-2007, 13:49
It depends what force I am going up against, more 'n' likely I will just sit back/move and shoot them, then charge if they get close enough, use the cover wisely dont be lured out into the open thus negating the effect of the cloak,
or
split the force into half, one half stays back and shoot, and the other half go and takes the objective whilst going through cover
or
send a small force of elves to lure the enemy towards cove and atk them whilst in the cover, and the rest of the force moves away whilst keeping an eye out for the enemy and react to the situations as well, plus whilst taking the objectives

The only that I am worried about is going to be outnumbered against orcs and goblins, and high defense value like uruks and easterlings, ringwraiths, gulahvar (sp?), shelob, giant spiders, spider queens etc.

I am quitely confident of winning most of the games I think, it just depends who I face and what teh scenarios are.

LG

Lord Gordonis
15-04-2007, 09:07
Yesterday was the day of the Lotr Knock-out Tournament at my local GW,

1st game was To kill a king out of the legions book, basically its the first person to the other king without sustaining losses. I played against a harad and easterling force with Khamul on fellbeast, scenario wise desert board with lots of hills, a few trees and a building, the game was a draw but it went down on how many kills the opposing army did, and I won by killing 20 models, and bringing down khamul to no fate, and the fellbeast to 2 wounds.

2nd Game, Pitched Battle, I was agianst some goblins, the battle was a draw again but it went down to how many kills, I got the most kills again, so I won again.

3rd and final game, Contest of Champions, I was playing agianst a gondor allied with the grey comapny, it was on the same table that I played the first game on. I picked Legolas as the champion on the force and he picked faramir as his champion, I won by legolas killing faramir and that game only took half an hour to play.

So I won the knock out tournament. yay! lol.

I think that the force worked really well, though I would stress that I would not take this force to the gt at all because 1) It is a very small force, 2) easily outnumbered, 3) D3 wood elf warriors, 4) It needs cover to work well.

Any questions feel free to ask!!!

LG

Pertinax
15-04-2007, 19:55
How did the army? How did Mr. Lord Gordonis?

Lord Gordonis
15-04-2007, 20:37
basically what I was trying to say was, how many models each other killed during the game

Pertinax
15-04-2007, 21:00
For some reason, I totally did not see the post above my previous post. :roleeyes:

Congrats.

How did the army feel on the table?

Lord Gordonis
15-04-2007, 22:31
The army felt very good actually, which I never felt during when I was using my gondorians nor the uruk-hai which is quite interesting b/c I felt confident using the uruk-hai and the gondorians but they let me down during the last tournament I think, but I prob use that list in a proper tournament as I would get slaughtered lol, if I were to go again to the tournament I would lose erestor and put something else but I am not sure what.

Im waiting to have a look at the khazad-dum book and learn how to use dwarfs b/c they are totally different plus its a new army to try out.

I think about wood elves is its definately a specialised force to learn, b/c during the tournament I had to think of where models would go and what will happen in the next turn, b/c i never had to do it with the uruks nor the gondorians so I think I will keep the force as it is, and try to play different scenarios and different forces so it was a new learning curve for me.

LG

Sniper Kelly
15-04-2007, 22:53
Congratulations!

How useful were all those elven cloaks - did they play a big part in the battles?

Lord Gordonis
15-04-2007, 23:04
Congratulations!

How useful were all those elven cloaks - did they play a big part in the battles?

Cheers, They were brill especailly from volley fire and charging and normal shooting which is always good. I think that I only lost 15 models during the whole tournament, which is quite impressive to say the least. They were helpful no end of times espacially when I think that when I was going to get charged or something.

LG

Gondorian
15-04-2007, 23:30
It occurs to me that you might like a sentinel or two in place of erestor if you're dropping him. They have a range of different abilities for annoying your opponent with their singing.

Lord Gordonis
16-04-2007, 13:56
@gondorian: Very true, like their special abilities, I would have taken them if I had the models, and replaced them with erestor.

I will have to have a look at their rules again and the points value, b/c I might be able to add 2 or 3 of them into the force then trying it out.

LG

Lord Gordonis
17-04-2007, 23:09
Im going to another tournament which is mecernery mahem which is at warhammer world on may bank holiday, of which I am going with my wood elves to see if they do actually work at the tournament. There are 3 scenarios which randomly generated they are, Domination, Take the high ground, and To kill a King. I re-worked the army list a little here it is:

Thrandruil
Haldir w/cloak, bow, armour
legolas w/armour, cloak

3 x WE Sentinals 75pts
15 x WE warriors w/cloak, throwing daggers, blade 225pts
8 x WE warriors w/cloak, bow 98pts

Total: 697pts

what do you think? Should I put some spear armed warriors in there so that they can back up the normal warriors?

cheers LG!

Pertinax
17-04-2007, 23:21
Wow. That's not a lot of figures, is it?

I would consider the extra spearmen. But what goes out?

Sniper Kelly
18-04-2007, 00:20
I think you need to lose some bowmen as the Sentinels are also armed with bows, taking you over the limit.

Mars
18-04-2007, 10:04
Yes, you were already over the bow limit in your first list I think.

Sentinels can be useful against Trolls I guess, or an unlucky Captain.

All in all I'd never field that list, where I play there just isn't enough cover to hide for long.

I would suggest taking spears over blades, blades are really not worth it, spears are. Two-handed weapon on a D3 14 points model is suicide, spears on the other hand allow more models to fight, thus rolling a higher average per fight, and also rearguard actions to fend off multiple enemies at once.

Lord Gordonis
18-04-2007, 10:18
I just need to drop 1 bowman making it 10 warriors that are armed with bows, if you have a look in the legions about bows and what they say I am going off that rule so you need 2 normal warriors to 1 bowmen thats what I am going off. So if you ahve a look at my original list my army is legal.

Im still not sure wheather to take spears becuase both the spear and the blade cost the same points but I am losing 15 s3 throwing shots at 6" which means that I could take out potential targets before getting into combat.

@ Pert, I am considering to take out the throwing wpns out of the warriors but I am not sure I will have to try it out.

LG

Mars
18-04-2007, 14:41
That's interesting: around here we've always counted Heroes against the bow limit, but you've made me realise that the limit only counts towards Warriors, not Heroes. Curious :D.

And when I say "blades" I mean Elven blades, you seem to be talking about throwing daggers?

Pertinax
18-04-2007, 17:26
Don't think you will need them.

I'd also add that the blades are worth it. If you get two elves into a combat with blades, then you get to use the single handed to win the combat, and the wound bonus when you try to wound (for the individual elves).

But that requires quite a lot of planning to get into the game.

Lord Gordonis
18-04-2007, 17:43
@ Pert and Mars:

I thought that elven blades always count as being two-hand weapons ie you get a -1 to your roll in a fight??

I think with elvan blades are that if you get surrounded u r more likely to kill them outright with that extra plus 1 to the wound roll which is always helpful against high defense troops such as uruks.
I think I will test it out against a staff member that I know to see how the force works if not then I dont know what to take lol

LG

Pertinax
18-04-2007, 19:00
Blades can be used either as 1H or 2H. In the following situation...

X
A B

X=orc
A=WE using blade 1H
B=WE using blade 2H

You roll fights with two dice. But you have to mark which dice is being used by A and which by B at -1 (two colours).

Then, if you win, roll to kill. Again, use two different colours for A and B, with B getting +1.

You effectively put the odds in your favour of winning the battle, whilst at the same time, making a kill.

Lord Gordonis
18-04-2007, 23:20
Oh rite cool, cheers for that pert!!!

Gondorian
19-04-2007, 11:50
Also, why not use the above situation with an elf with blade and an elf with spear.
The blade may still go two handed while the spear stays single. This also gives you other options for shielding and supporting in other situations.

Mars
19-04-2007, 18:07
hm, even in the situation above, I still wouldn't use the blades 2H. hell, even if I'm fighting 5 to 1, I'd still have second thoughts about it

the reason is that your Elf costs 13 points, yet is D3
I'd hate getting them killed by a 6 point Orc, and I only need a 5+ to wound him

an Uruk-Hai is a different matter. he costs 10 points, and his two main advantages, F and S, are nullified by the Wood Elf

while the biggest problem is their high D6, where an Elven blade can make all the difference

still, I prefer to fight in spear formation: more dice per given combat means a higher average dice roll, thus a higher win rate for the Elves, and you also get more dice per fight, thus a higher average roll to wound

contrary if you fight in a stretched line you'll allow your enemy to make most of his numbers, fighting with spears against your 2H weapons, which is pureblood suicde

especially in wooded terrain, you're better off using your mobility to concentrate your forces against a small number of enemies, rather than spreading out your forces because you can't use spears

Pertinax
19-04-2007, 20:39
Also, why not use the above situation with an elf with blade and an elf with spear.
The blade may still go two handed while the spear stays single. This also gives you other options for shielding and supporting in other situations.

Shielding can only be used by the spearman if ALL friendly figures in the combat also shield.

And remember that spears can't be used though a friendly figure that is using a 2HW.

Lord Gordonis
23-04-2007, 12:40
Hmm very interesting, I might actually keep to the army list methinks, as I havent got long to the tournament I think. Heres my evil that I might be taking to the tournament:
Buhrdur 110pts
Gulavhar 200pts
Khamul on Easterling on fellbeast 170pts
7x orcs with shield 42pts
5x orcs with spear 30pts
7x orcs with bow 42pts
spectre 15pts
cave troll with troll chain 85pts
total 693pts

What do you think??

LG

Gondorian
23-04-2007, 13:39
hm, even in the situation above, I still wouldn't use the blades 2H. hell, even if I'm fighting 5 to 1, I'd still have second thoughts about it

the reason is that your Elf costs 13 points, yet is D3
I'd hate getting them killed by a 6 point Orc, and I only need a 5+ to wound him

an Uruk-Hai is a different matter. he costs 10 points, and his two main advantages, F and S, are nullified by the Wood Elf

while the biggest problem is their high D6, where an Elven blade can make all the difference

still, I prefer to fight in spear formation: more dice per given combat means a higher average dice roll, thus a higher win rate for the Elves, and you also get more dice per fight, thus a higher average roll to wound

contrary if you fight in a stretched line you'll allow your enemy to make most of his numbers, fighting with spears against your 2H weapons, which is pureblood suicde

especially in wooded terrain, you're better off using your mobility to concentrate your forces against a small number of enemies, rather than spreading out your forces because you can't use spears

Well there are also other situations, facing high defence enemies such as trolls, mumakil and god forbid balrogs can increase the use of elven blades. Especially against enemies that will need a six followed by a 4/5/6 as the bonus applies to both dice.
When fighting in the open, spear lines work well but within woodland even a small number of elves can run circles around orcs and goblins, picking fights with single and two handed weapons then running next turn.

Lord Gondonis,
You're light on numbers and I'd really keep the vampire away from archers for as long as possible. If he can get up close without losing wounds then he'll do well but he's a difficult hero to use competitively.

Lord Gordonis
23-04-2007, 14:46
Yeah true but I was think of having khamul in front of the terror until it gets into range so it go into combat, but yeah I know what you mean archers, tho if I am up against elf/dwarf archers with s3 bows those are going to the terror quickly but I think the force will quite well actually.

LG

Pertinax
23-04-2007, 17:13
Are the troll chains really worth it?

Lord Gordonis
25-04-2007, 10:18
I don't think troll chains to be fair really 1 34 hit at 3" at that distance you are either going get charged or you charge, I more and likely will take that off and put some more orcs in, I think that or take out the troll and the spectre and put more orcs into there what do you think?

LG

Pertinax
25-04-2007, 11:20
Have you looked at the Spider Queen contra the Cave Troll?

If I was to put cash on it, I would fall for the Spider Queen. Tactically, she is awesome, and is pretty much as hard as the troll. Plus, with the broodlings, she can tie up archers and troops whilst she beats up part of the opponent's battle line.

Bear in mind, that she can get broodlings into with a 10" move first, then a deployment of broodlings within 2" (iirc) of her, plus their width of the base of the broodlings, and then they get to move. Now that is an awesome ability to tie up the opponent's line so that you can charge in next round.

Mars
25-04-2007, 12:00
On the two-handed weapons: I fought Sauron the other day, and found that Elf Blades are godsend against him, especially combined with Galadriel for immobilizing him. I reduced him to his last wound in 2 combat phases, at the cost of a single Elf :).

On the other hand I did lose one fight because Sauron rolled a 5, and so did all my Elves (and he still had might), so don't forget to throw in some spears for good measure (mine where too terrorized to charge).

So I figure a handful of Elven blades are worth the cost, and always come in handy when the enemy brings something heavy and you manage to immobilize it.

However, for rank and file I still prefer spears, they're better at both defending and fighting. Especially against enemy spear formations, fighting two-handed is simply not an option.

Lord Gordonis, interesting list, I'm building up an Angmar army myself :).
I especially like the Khamul + Fellbeast combo.
You are a bit low on numbers though, I would suggest dropping the Troll for more Orcs, maybe an extra Spectre (they're great combined with Nazgūl).
Otherwise you might find your few super-heroes fighting on their own, taking courage tests after just 5 turns.

Lord Gordonis
25-04-2007, 14:13
@mars yeah very true, would you suggest putting in two-handed weapons orcs in there or not b/c I dont like orcs having 2-hand weapons at all b/c they are not worth it. what about putting in an orc captain in there just for the orcs? just incase they do get down to half and start taking courage checks?

LG

Mars
25-04-2007, 18:02
2HW on Orcs sounds good: I plan using them in my own Angmar list

the big advantage is their low cost: Orcs have the numbers to form a spear formation, and still have enough models to surround the enemy. in this situation the 2HW becomes very useful, as they can help finishing the job against an outnumbered enemy (not always that easy when so many good armies have D6/7 troops)

also they're very cheap, which helps because of the higher risk their weapon brings

I'm unsure about Heroes myself: casters are usually the best choice, since they're usually not in combat and have good courage/will (Nazgūl, Barrow-Wight, Shaman...). Orcs do help a lot to break enemy spear formations (F4 S4 is great against MT), just watch for enemy elites (D7 Fountain Guards :() or enemy Heroes (most of whom will easily best the lowly Orc Captain, or at least resist him)

Pertinax
25-04-2007, 18:42
I'm not entirely sure about the orc archers. I've never really been impressed byt he 5+ to hit S2. In any army that includes archers, that is.

So much so that I have actually gone so far as to not use archers if they are 5+ to hit. I found that the chance of actually doing some damage was drastically increased in close combat than at range.

Besides, with 7, you are not getting volley fire (which is probably worth it).

I'd drop the archers all together, and put in some more front line/spear orcs.

Lord Gordonis
25-04-2007, 19:33
Mmmmm interesting, have to a look at the army list again to see what variations I could have in the army, but that won't be till nxt week now as I have got alot of things to do at the moment. when I do the army lists I will put them up here for you to look at.

I had another idea for the army, take out Buhrdur, the orcs, the spectre and the troll and put in a basic dragon with no upgrades lol, I know this is a stupid idea but it would be fun to play with lol!

LG

Gondorian
25-04-2007, 20:52
I'm not entirely sure about the orc archers. I've never really been impressed byt he 5+ to hit S2. In any army that includes archers, that is.

So much so that I have actually gone so far as to not use archers if they are 5+ to hit. I found that the chance of actually doing some damage was drastically increased in close combat than at range.

Besides, with 7, you are not getting volley fire (which is probably worth it).

I'd drop the archers all together, and put in some more front line/spear orcs.

I've found goblin archers are a pretty good deal, thing is you have to max out on em. Take your full allowed limit and the numbers will compensate for the poor skill. They can also be thrown into combat when needed, mine tend to act as skirmishers on one flank of my main line, shooting and fighting where needed.

Mars
25-04-2007, 23:17
Goblin/Orc archers are quite good, be it at volley. I've been outgunned that way by either race.

But in small numbers no, they're not really worth it: the few shots you'll get will do little to nothing, and in this list you'll need every model you have, you can't allow some to linger.

I rather like the idea of Buhrdur, Hero stats for 30 extra points is a great deal for a Troll. He also has a smaller base than his Mordor counterpart, a big strategic advantage.

It does sound like you're going for a flying monster army. Would be a lot of fun, but difficult to play with, since it'll strugle against anyone worth his salt.

On the Spider Queen, she sounds fun, but I'm not too familiar with the Dol Guldur list. It certainly sounds juicy with those Werewolves and Black Trees in the future.

On the Angmar list, I'm working on something myself:

Nazgūl
Shade
Barrow Wight
Wild Warg Chieftan
Buhrdur

50 Orcs
10 Wild Wargs
3 Spectres
2 Orc Banner Bearers
3 Trolls

Perhaps I'll drop a Troll to get to 1000 points; that's the favored point match around here :rolleyes:.

This list should work pretty well. I like fielding a lot of models, allows you to at least match the enemy strength, and soak up the shooting. The Orcs will take the hits and provide numbers, while the Trolls are there to break the enemy line. Between the Shade, banners and Terror, they're quite unstopable. Between my casters and Buhrdur I should have enough heroes to hold my army together, and take out the enemy Heroes.

I'm not too convinced with the Wild Warg Chieftan. For his cost I can get two Orc Heroes, who'll give me more Might, hitting power, keep my army going...
His F5 and S6 are most juicy, but with just 2 attacks and 1 might point he'll be an easy target for a lot of Good Heroes out there. He has Good courage concidering his Will, and with 3 wounds at D5 he'll hold out pretty long, perhaps I'll be better of with some Warg Riders?

Probably a combination of both. The Wild Wargs provide cheap numbers, the Warg Riders the real hitting power. But the Wild Warg Chieftan is just so damn cool :D.

Hm, the alternative is an Orc Captain with shield on Warg, that's 55 points. He's way better on the charge, and his Heroic actions have much greater effect, even if he does make for a worse leader. Time will tell on this one I guess. Why can't I field the Wild Warg Chieftan as a monstrous mount? :(

Pertinax
26-04-2007, 13:40
On the Spider Queen, she sounds fun, but I'm not too familiar with the Dol Guldur list. It certainly sounds juicy with those Werewolves and Black Trees in the future.
That doesn't mean that you can't combine the two lists, no?

Mars
26-04-2007, 16:56
don't think you can, unfortunally :(

Pertinax
26-04-2007, 22:46
Angmar=> Barad Dur=>Dol Guldur.

Simple. You will have some Orcs in your Angmar list, so you buy a captain from the Barad Dur list. Then you ally him with Dol Guldur.

Rules wise, it is permitted.

Mars
01-05-2007, 09:30
you're absolutely right ofcourse, must have been thinking of my Moria

I quite like the combination, very high monster rate :D

I'm a bit shocked by the Spider Queen, because she's the same cost as a Wild Warg Chieftan, but in my eyes way more useful. her only disatvantage is the larger base

Pertinax
01-05-2007, 09:38
Spider Queen is, in my book, one of the best value for points things in the game.

Mars
03-05-2007, 12:21
I actually looked it up, and Dol Guldur can't ally with Angmar (but it can with Moria). Both can ally with Barad-Dūr, but that doesn't mean they can ally with each other (commonly made mistake).

Pertinax
03-05-2007, 12:33
I believe they can.

Vesa N. (winner of the UK GT) had a force that was Dwellers Below, allied with Dol Guldur, allied with Isenguard Raiders.

Same thing, really. The fact that the Dwellers Below can't ally with the Isenguard Raiders is irrelevant.

Mars
03-05-2007, 17:10
First off, Vesa's list is illegal: Isengard Raiders does not list The Dwellers Below as allies, or vice versa (as cleared up in the Legions FAQ Q22), as such they may not take them as allies. Both can ally with Dol Guldur, but not with each other.

Secondly, assuming you could ignore the limitations by picking the right ally, than why would they bother to list all available allies for each and every list?

For example if they wanted Khazad-Dūm to be able to ally with the Fellowship, why didn't they just put it in there? Why force you to take a single Wood Elf Captain from the Lothlorien list? Is that guy their tour guide or something?

Thirdly, Legions of Middle Earth, page 8, "SELECTING ALLIES", second paragraph:

"... we've deliberately prevented many named Heroes from taking the field with others who were not alive at the same time."

Yet according to your theory, you can Field Aragorn next to Isildur, Gil-Galad next to Frodo, Durin next to Theoden... None of which is possible if you respect all ally limitations.

Pertinax
03-05-2007, 19:08
I believe they can.

Vesa N. (winner of the UK GT) had a force that was Dwellers Below, allied with Dol Guldur, allied with Isenguard Raiders.



First off, Vesa's list is illegal: Isengard Raiders does not list The Dwellers Below as allies, or vice versa (as cleared up in the Legions FAQ Q22), as such they may not take them as allies. Both can ally with Dol Guldur, but not with each other.
Right ho. Lets have a look at this then. I'll start by reading though page 8 of LOME, "Allied armies". There is nothing there that imposes any restrictions on allied armies and third allied armies. This page does not stop Vesa's list.

Then, we look at the order of which things are ordered in his list. I've quoted my original post above for clarity.

The root of the list comes from the Dol Guldur list (p. 79). From the Dol Guldur list, Vesa takes the spider queens and some bats. He then allies with the Dwellers Below (p.65). This list is allowed to ally with Dol Guldur There is no error in the entries here, and both are listed as being able to ally with each other.

Now, to expand the list still further, he takes a contingent of Isenguard Raiders (p. 69). These are allied with the Dol Guldur list. Again, both lists are listed as being able to ally with each other.

So, we have an army structure like this:

DWELLERS BELOW --------- DOL GULDUR ---------- ISENGUARD RAIDERS

This structure is perfectly permissible. Isenguard Raiders are allowed to ally with the Dwellers Below THOUGH another list, even though they are not listed as being able to.

Q22 of the FAQ does not touch this issue at all. What Q22 states is that if army A is listed as being able to ally with army B, but army B can't ally with army A, they can still ally. It's a Q about poor proof reading.

Now, concerning the ability to take High King - Grey Havens - Fellowship:
Yes you can. You would probably be shot for it, but you can do it. I did not say that the rules, especially LOME, are infallible. Only that they allow you to ally though a "co-ally" middle list. This is illustrated on p. 8. "There is no limit to the number of different army lists that can be used to form an allied army. To create an allied army, simply decide upon the army lists that you want to use." In other words, the book states that historical alliances are permitted, and it attempts to avoid time-line conflicts, whilst at the same time, telling you to knock yourself out with the options.

If you want my opinion about the whole thing, it cooks down to the whole of the LOME ally system being shaky to begin with. The point is that the army that Vesa used was 100% legal. It was using the rules to build an army. Done deal.

If you still doubt the legality of the list, then you can get in touch with Brian and the GW Events team if you want, and ask them about it. The fact that the referees and eight other players that Vesa played against during the tournament did not result in docked points would indicate that you are indeed wrong.

Mars
03-05-2007, 19:42
On Vesa's list: are you sure he didn't take Moria, rather than The Dwellers Bellow? Because that is a legal combination, and in this combination of allies, The Dwellers Below offer nothing that you cannot field if you'd take Moria.

Meaning that even if he did use The Dwellers Below list, he still couldn't make an illegal army combination, even if he wanted to (unless he tried very, very hard).

His official list may not have been legal, but his army certainly was. Do you know of any UK GT winners who actually fielded an illegal army? Like Isildur and Aragorn in the same list?

As far as the allies/no allies thing goes, as you quoted yourself, "simply decide upon the army lists that you want to use". There's the problem: The Dwellers Below can never choose Isengard Raiders as an ally, it's simply not an available option. Other lists have nothing to do with it. A can ally with B, and B can ally with C, but that doesn't mean A can ally with C. It never says that, your logic is flawed.

Pertinax
03-05-2007, 20:02
On Vesa's list: are you sure he didn't take Moria, rather than The Dwellers Bellow? Because that is a legal combination, and in this combination of allies, The Dwellers Below offer nothing that you cannot field if you'd take Moria.
I helped him play test and paint the army.


His official list may not have been legal, but his army certainly was. Do you know of any UK GT winners who actually fielded an illegal army? Like Isildur and Aragorn in the same list?
His army is rules-legal. Are you marking armies as illegal because of time-line conflicts, or because of rules. Because it sounds like you are doing both. I am confused.

For the record, RAW, by the book, whatever you want to call it. His army is rules-legal, and conforms to the rules in the rulesbooks.

Vesa has won all the LOTR UK GTs, and all of his lists have been legal. There are no other winners.


As far as the allies/no allies thing goes, as you quoted yourself, "simply decide upon the army lists that you want to use". There's the problem: The Dwellers Below can never choose Isengard Raiders as an ally, it's simply not an available option. Other lists have nothing to do with it. A can ally with B, and B can ally with C, but that doesn't mean A can ally with C. It never says that, your logic is flawed.
Again, I state that the Dwellers list is not allying with the Raiders list. Both the Raiders and the Dwellers are allying with a Dol Guldur list. I find no where in the rules, FAQ or any tournament pack that states that "Every allied contingent has to be able to ally with what other allied contingents may make up the army". If it was to say that, then Vesa's list wound not be legal. But it doesn't, so it is legal. As long as you have a legal allied link between contingent A and another allied contingent of your army, then it is permitted RAW.

Again, I'm not saying that you should use all the ally chances. But in addition to saying that, if you were to field a blatantly time-line conflicting army, then the army would still be RAW legal.

EDIT: This is Vesa's list, lifted from an email he sent me before I traveled over to the GT.
EVIL:
3 x Spider Queen
Sharku on Warg
7 Warg Riders

2 x Goblin Captain
20 Goblin Archers
20 Goblin Spearmen
20 Naked Goblins

Lord Gordonis
08-05-2007, 11:42
Right back on topic lol
It was the mercenaries (sp?) tournament at Warhammer World, I took my Wood elves to it, this was the list I took:
Thrandruil
Erestor
Haldir w/cloak, bow, armour
legolas w/armour, cloak

15 x WE warriors w/cloak, throwing daggers, blade 225pts
7 x WE warriors w/cloak, bow 98pts

Total: 693pts

I didnt have time to get the sentinals finished so I had to take the same list I did for the first tournament. The first game was domination against the necromancer, spider queen and lots of easterlings, i got a minor loss out of the game only because my dice rolling was appalling lol. The highpoint of the game was when thranduil and a wood elf charged the necromancer and won the combat scoring 2 wounds on it and he proceded to use 8 "fate" points to deny me killing it outright. Another is holding up one flank for the intire game with legolas, haldir, erestor, and 5 wood elves against a spider queen, giant spider, and some easterlings.

2nd game was the high ground, against 2 people, with king of the dead, saruman, galadriel, halbarad with standard, and armyof the dead. I got a draw out of it, but I thought this wasnt themed at all. I thought that I did quite well actually this game.

3rd gamewas to kill a king I was against gandlaf the white, faramir, damrod, king of the dead, army of the dead, rangers of gondor, and minis tirith warriors and I got a minor victory out of it which is good. Overall I came 8th out of 16 people which I thought it was good using a very specialised force to use, but I will never take this force to a proper tournament ever agian it suffers from numbers and somethime the lack of terrain to hide in as well.

LG