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BrotherMoses
12-04-2007, 14:30
What is the best thing a space marine can take into battle besides contempt for his foes?

Also, are power fists the golden gun of this game? Just wondering, I gotta friend thats all about the power fists.

While we're on it, he says that in a White Dwarf it says power fists can be turned off so you don't go at initiative one? That rite? Where is that? How does it work?

Joewrightgm
12-04-2007, 14:36
A) IMO, not been playing marines long, I would say it would be situation dependent.

B) Not really; you exchange the Marines high I 4 for always striking last, and if you're up against some big gribbly then it can be a liability.

C) Big Black Book: example is if you have a power fist and power sword, you can strike at initiative, ignoring armor saves with the power sword and count the fist as an additional combat weapon, or vice versa. That's one reason why the Crozius/Power fist combo on a chaplain is popular.

Askari
12-04-2007, 14:49
A) The Iron Halo, cheaper than the Mantle, and has more uses, and still prevents ID about 50% of the time [slightly less due to Invulnerable save ignoring weapons, slightly more if you got a Librarian with Veil of Time]

B) Hidden Power Fists are golden, IC Power Fists are not.

C) A model may always choose to attack using their basic statline as opposed to any weapons with special rules, so yes, your friend can either smack you with a giant metal hand art S4 I4, or switch the power on and whack you well into next week with S8 I1.

Kahadras
12-04-2007, 14:50
Powerfists all the way I feel. Although you strike last the improved strength, chance of insta kill and ignoring of armour cannot be discounted. A power fist on a vet. sergeant is one of the best things you can buy IMHO. Makes the squads scary in hth and gives you a fighting chance against big scary things too.

Kahadras

Varath- Lord Impaler
12-04-2007, 14:54
Apart from a shed load of marines all i require are powerfists and Haevy bolters.

My 2 favorite weapons in the game, the greatest inventions ever.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
12-04-2007, 15:13
Also, are power fists the golden gun of this game? Just wondering, I gotta friend thats all about the power fists.
while Power Fists in general can do a lot of damage (see p46 and 27 of the rulebook), they do have their drawbacks. its the "hidden" Power Fist more specifically that is thought of as a "golden gun".

if an IC uses a Fist then:
- he gives up is usually superior Init
- he can be easily be picked out and attacked before he strikes
- he easily can be left with no one to attack by the time you reach his Init step

an ICs main defense if a good offense - i.e. by killing his enemies before they attack he keeps himself from being hurt by them. by using a Fist he loses this, so has to stand up to all their attacks and survive if he is going to do anything, which often means he needs more protection, which in turn makes him cost more points. the fact that he often wont get to attack makes him even less cost effective (especially when you factor in the hidden cost of his superior Init, that you have already paid for as part of his base cost).

an UC (Upgrade Character - like a Veteran Sgt - p50 rulebook) on the other hand gets to attack "through" his squadmates (i.e. he checks if he is Engaged using models within 2", not just by being in B2B) so is more likely to get to attack when you reach the Init 1 step. also, he cannot be targeted freely (he fights as a normal squad member), so unless all Engaged models are killed (or he is picked out due to ToB and fails his Save), then he will still be alive when he gets his turn to attack. and the bigger the squad the harder he is to be killed/prevented from attacking.

thats why its referred to as a "hidden" Power Fist (it still has to be represented on the model, of course), and why its rated so highy.

if you are going to give an IC a Power Fist, you may want to give him a Power Weapon also, so he can choose not to use the Fist whilst still ignoring Saves. a Chaplain or Librarian may be a good choice for this, as they come with a Power Weapon included, and you would want to buy them a second weapon (for +1A, see p40) anyway.


While we're on it, he says that in a White Dwarf it says power fists can be turned off so you don't go at initiative one? That rite? Where is that? How does it work?
"turning it off" is just fluff (its something that can "really" be done in the 40K universe too) - in the rules all it means is that you have chosen to make basic attacks (see p46), using your normal S and Init and with your opponents getting to take their normal saving throws. you would either do it as a last resort (to make sure your models arent killed or otherwise prevented from attacking before the get a chance to strike) or if you intentionally want to reduce the damage you are likely to do in CC (if you want to make sure the combat lasts through your opponent's shooting phase, for example, in order for you not to get shot).

hope that helps :)

~ Tim

ZiggyQubert
12-04-2007, 15:17
Ah yes the power fist, quite the best CC weapon for marines, but only if they can be hidden in a squad.

*WARNING MATHHAMMER ALERT*
lets see a sargent charging marines (4 attacks on the charge)-

Power Fist - 2 hits, 1 2/3 kills
Power Weapon - 2 hits, 1 kill
CC Weapon - 2 hits, 1 wound, 1/3 of a kill
Lightning Claws - 2 hits, 1 1/4 kills
when you factor in the point cost, the choice is clear

Plus the PF can deal with dreadnoughts, Monstrous creatures, Other viechels, and on top of that it can insti-kill most characters (none of the other options can), all for a measly 5 points more then a power weapon.

I'll take two, and can I get those wrapped, with a side of cheese please?

Takitron
12-04-2007, 15:22
I fail to see how the PF is any different than a Power Weapon in straight HtH combat. If anything, its better since you use your init (or higher init on some IC) while you can deny powerfists attacks by taking models away from the fist.

IAMNOTHERE
12-04-2007, 15:49
Lets face it this has gone off topic slightly.

So personally I think the Purity Seal at 5 points is a real squad saver. It allows you to either get out of range so you are able to consolidate next turn or to not fall back off a table edge if your devastators decide to run.

Onisuzume
12-04-2007, 17:52
If you need purity seals to keep devs on the table then you're really doing something wrong.

As for the most useful wargear. (weapons ain't wargear)
My vote has to go to the Iron Halo as well.
A 4+ invulnerable save is great.

As for the power fist; why take a fist if you can get a thunder hammer instead? (except for DA vet sergs. >_> not that I'd give them either of the two anyways)

eldaran
12-04-2007, 18:17
As for the power fist; why take a fist if you can get a thunder hammer instead? (except for DA vet sergs. >_> not that I'd give them either of the two anyways)

I agree: at 10 extra points for the DA sergeant than the power weapon, it's better to give the guy a power weapon. It's still a shame, and in a redux should be kept at 15. (especially with the pain in the backside-for non-eldar players anyway-known as Mind War)

Mort
12-04-2007, 18:23
power weapon combined with furious charge,in my opinion,when it comes to close combat.

iron halo for protection

plasma pistol to fry somebody before charging,or to blow up light tanks. (you wouldnt believe how often that works)

BrotherMoses
12-04-2007, 19:18
what I'm thinking about doing is making an anti-infantry squad with flamers or plasma and equipping its sargeant with a power sword. I'm Blood Angels so furious charge would go with that and make it a I 5, S 5, hit.

But I'm also thinking about making an anti tank squad with melta, multimelta, and a sarge with a power fist. Give them a rhino or some way of getting to the tanks fast. If worse comes to worst, i'm building my first Land Speeder now and I'm thinking of making a LS squadron with a mix of melta/heavy and maybe a typhoon in their for some long ranged punch. Thoughts?

Mort
12-04-2007, 19:26
using a melta gun,a multi melta and a transport is a bit of overkill for my taste.first of all,the "normal" meltagun will evaporate any normal target(as soon as it scores a hit)but after disembarking the multi will be useless.sarge with a power fist is always a nice idea.

i wouldnt use plasma guns in a anti infantry unit,either flamers or meltaguns,the are assault weapons,and perhaps you would like to charge any survivors. go for the power fist in squads,its surely more fun than a power weapon.

Brother Drakist
12-04-2007, 19:33
The luck in which I have been having with Plasma guns has me using Melta Guns. I love 'em, insta-melt, and great vs. tanks. Powerfists are a necessary evil in my opinion.

Mort
12-04-2007, 19:41
my space marine army uses not a single melta gun,but loads of flamers and plasma guns. but concerning the blood angel furious charge and and anti infantry unit thing,i would give the meltas the go. power fists are great,bashin charcters,monsters,tanks,etc. love them. but there expensive too...

by the way,i rarely play a game with my chaos or sm whitout frying some of my plasmagunners. but,hey,i just love them...

thelightbringer
13-04-2007, 00:54
lightning claws!!superb!!reroll failed wounds and no saves!!damn good

DesolationAngel
13-04-2007, 07:24
Chaplian with Thunderhammer, Mantle and Artificier armour works, even better on a bike with termi hons, guarenteed to get into combat if within 18", 6 attacks with rerolls to hit, then with S8. If you get hit back you've got a 2+/4+ and can't be instakilled so going last doesn't matter as much. Doing this with blood angel chaplians with a jump pack is just nasty as you get furious charge and potientailly higher movement too, not to mention the death company.

Mantles are essientail IMO, I give one to any character that is likely to see combat (runes with Chaos) as they are often expensive already and it means you can go toe to toe with powerfists without the risk. Using a Thunderhammer is often a lot better most of the time, its a big difference wounding on 2's compared to 4's, not to mention being able to take on bigger things.

I've used Iron Halos before and even with Veil of Time its risky as Eldar/Marines cancel that out most of the time and they are the main armies with S8 (Wraithlords, Powerfists), for combat a chaplian is much better, getting the 4+ and mantle.

Bionics can be good for the points, it often saves a character in most games ive seen, if your not taking honours its worth it.

A bikes better than a jump pack generally, especailly in escaltion.

A Thunder hammer is a lot better than a Power Fist.

eldaran
13-04-2007, 11:44
and twice as expenive for an upgrade character (less so for an ic)

Corax
13-04-2007, 12:33
Don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but I'm a fan of the Combat Shield. 10pts for a Invulnerable Save (even if it is conditional) is still good value, especially, if you've already given the Halo to someone else.

Other good things are Purity Seals and Teleport Homers.

Of course, most of the non-weapon (or armour) wargear is pretty useless. This is true of most armies (but not Chaos).

Askari
13-04-2007, 12:38
I've used Iron Halos before and even with Veil of Time its risky as Eldar/Marines cancel that out most of the time

How? I don't recall Eldar or Marines possessing weapons capable of ignoring Invulnerable saves.


Bionics can be good for the points, it often saves a character in most games ive seen, if your not taking honours its worth it.

Bionics is worthless, there are far better things to spend the points on, it's more a piece of fluff wargear really, and why would taking Terminator Honours stop you taking Bionics? Their effects are completely different.


A bikes better than a jump pack generally, especailly in escaltion.

I agree with you here, the Bike can turbo-boost, which is quite a leap faster than a Jump Infantry move, plus you get an Invulnerable save (oddly)


A Thunder hammer is a lot better than a Power Fist.

No it's not... it's only worth taking over the Power Fist if you're playing Daemonhunters and they cost the same points, or they're for Assault Terminators, who don't actually get Power Fists anyway...

The affect ain't massive really, and not much is supposed to survive a bashing by a Thunder Hammer, it's only useful against Hive Tyrants, Wraithlords and a C'Tan.


Don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but I'm a fan of the Combat Shield. 10pts for a Invulnerable Save (even if it is conditional) is still good value, especially, if you've already given the Halo to someone else.

Yeah the Combat Shield is pretty cool, especially for ICs since they are usually shielded until assaults anyway, and don't take up a place for a weapon like the Storm Shield does.

DesolationAngel
13-04-2007, 16:05
Eldar have runes of warding, marines have pyschic hoods, preventing the inv save being reroll, which is what saves you from being instakilled when you get hit.

5pts to add to survivablity, 1 game my friends chaplian only survived the first round of combat due to having it, another he survived a round of shooting due to having it. Thats like saying warpfield isn't worth it when it usaully is, as its a small chance of a save thats reflected by it only being 5pts. If you have a chaplian on a bike with mantle, art armour you only have 15pts of wargear left, so either bionics and frags OR termi hons.

Best thing with bikes is the guarenteed charge within 18" with little risk of taking a wound, followed by the increase toughness, once you have T5, art armour and bionics it reduces normal wounds getting through, his 4+ saves the others. Turbo boost with a 2+ inv save a mantle also helps them get into combat, as well as not getting as badly hit by escalation.

A hammer costs 5pts more and has 2 effects one of which will let you strike at the same time with the hammer in the following round against big things, which is what a kitted out chaplian is made to take down, against a wraithlord, T7 5 wound fex even with 6 attacks and re-rolls to hit you'd be lucky to take it down in a turn. Also characters with rune/mantle, unlikely in a turn, but in 2 you can beat them down. Same respect vechiles, instantly stopping them from shooting just by hitting them.

How is that not worth 5pts extra? when you just spend over 200pts on a character you may as well go all the way, to me you either take a cheap libririan with fury of the ancients or a hard fully kitted out character as its not nice losing your chaplian when using a thunderhammer could have kept him alive just long enough to do some damage.

There are a fair few reasons to use a thunderhammer (avatar - (finished one of these off in 2 turns due to using a thunderhammer recently), wraithlords, talos, fexs, tyrants, rune/mantle characters, vechiles in the main). Likelyhood is you won't get rid of one in a turn, given that why not go at the same time in the following turn instead of last, thus losing your character the following turn before he does anything. It does make a difference, maybe you haven't seen as many games as I have when it does make that difference.


How? I don't recall Eldar or Marines possessing weapons capable of ignoring Invulnerable saves.

Bionics is worthless, there are far better things to spend the points on, it's more a piece of fluff wargear really, and why would taking Terminator Honours stop you taking Bionics? Their effects are completely different.

I agree with you here, the Bike can turbo-boost, which is quite a leap faster than a Jump Infantry move, plus you get an Invulnerable save (oddly)

No it's not... it's only worth taking over the Power Fist if you're playing Daemonhunters and they cost the same points, or they're for Assault Terminators, who don't actually get Power Fists anyway...

The affect ain't massive really, and not much is supposed to survive a bashing by a Thunder Hammer, it's only useful against Hive Tyrants, Wraithlords and a C'Tan.

Yeah the Combat Shield is pretty cool, especially for ICs since they are usually shielded until assaults anyway, and don't take up a place for a weapon like the Storm Shield does.

Askari
13-04-2007, 16:43
That's where our differences lie I see... I don't spend 200pts on a Marine character, they are not made for it, even my Chaos Daemon Prince is only 181pts.

And with the big gribblies you see, I find if you don't kill it before it hits you, you're dead anyway. The Hive Tyrant will rip you to shred anyway with usually 5 S6 attack with Implant Attack at I6. And most of the others will cause Instant Death on any non-Mantle character, and will probably kill you anyway. So I find leave the gribblies to the Power Fist Vet. Sergeants, and keep the faster Librarian [or Chaplain in your case] away.

Warp Field ISN'T worth it! I don't care much about a 6+ Invulnerable save, even if I do get a 2+ Armour save too... not reliable enough for me.

DesolationAngel
13-04-2007, 17:59
Have you seen what maxed out death company chaplian can get through in a game? chaplians are certainly made for combat, libririans for support and masters for leadership. Chaos Daemon Princes can be cheaper and just as effective as Marine characters.

Generally I shoot the tyrants in a nid list (assault cannons, lascannons), as fexs aren't as good in combat and can be finished off with a with a Chaplian, thats why I always use a mantle or equilvalent. I also don't take powerfists in tactical squads as mine are purely used to provide a lascannon, as I wouldn't spend the extra points on the sergeant as to me he is unlikely to see combat most of the time, a chaplian on the other hand is and is made for combat, having higher WS, save and re-rolls to hit.

I used to use a bike libririan and really found that a chaplian works better for my army, I could see a cheap libririan with fury of the ancients and termi armour doing OK. Buts that kind of my point, either really cheap or maxed out does it for me, my friend plays by the same principle too.

If you'd seen some of the games my friend and I have played where a warp field kept the tyrant alive you may change your view on warp field, at the least a winged tyrant needs it, but even on foot its the difference between losing a expensive model for the sake of 10pts when none of the other powers seem overly useful in my list anyway.

As for reliablity I don't find that cheaper marine characters are reliable, the amount of times they get taken down for the sake of a few upgrades made me take more expensive ones, same with Carnifexs and Tyrants.


That's where our differences lie I see... I don't spend 200pts on a Marine character, they are not made for it, even my Chaos Daemon Prince is only 181pts.

And with the big gribblies you see, I find if you don't kill it before it hits you, you're dead anyway. The Hive Tyrant will rip you to shred anyway with usually 5 S6 attack with Implant Attack at I6. And most of the others will cause Instant Death on any non-Mantle character, and will probably kill you anyway. So I find leave the gribblies to the Power Fist Vet. Sergeants, and keep the faster Librarian [or Chaplain in your case] away.

Warp Field ISN'T worth it! I don't care much about a 6+ Invulnerable save, even if I do get a 2+ Armour save too... not reliable enough for me.

Shrike30
13-04-2007, 19:04
and twice as expenive for an upgrade character (less so for an ic)

That's when it helps to play space wolves... IIRC the difference is 5 points, and knocking whatever I'm fighting down to init 1 has paid for itself more times than I can count.

Askari
13-04-2007, 20:13
DesolationAngel: Fair enough, yet I prefer a bare-bones Epistolary with Iron Halo and T. Honours to the ones I see with a Bike, Arti Armour, Mantle, Thunder Hammer, T.Honours, etc. etc.

And that's what I meant with the Daemon Prince comment, they are BETTER at combat than Marine Characters, for cheaper cost.

And I use Warp Blast for my Flyrant, so Warp Field gets a shove.

Anyway we're dragging this thread off-topic.

thelightbringer
13-04-2007, 20:45
good call askari!!thats exactly how I have my Librarian and it is damn good!! although I also give him art armour!!, but thats it!!give him a small command squad with an apothecary, and a plasma!! its amazing how many big boyos I have brought down with that combo!!