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azraeljpv
13-04-2007, 22:51
Ok, I haven't seen the new codex yet, I've been away from the hobby for a while and now I find that my local GW store has closed. Can someone tell me the major changes to the deathwing? I looked in the forums but I cant find much. thanks!

Hadrian
13-04-2007, 22:57
Ok, I haven't seen the new codex yet, I've been away from the hobby for a while and now I find that my local GW store has closed. Can someone tell me the major changes to the deathwing? I looked in the forums but I cant find much. thanks!

Well, without violating IP rules, it goes something like this:

Termie squads are bought in squads of 5, period. They only get 1 assault cannon per squad. They can mix TH and LC as well as PF&SB.

To take them as troops, you must take a specific HQ.

No LR or LRC transport option; however, they may deepstrike in turn 1.

Deafwing
13-04-2007, 23:00
I'm sure you meant one heavy weapon per squad...:rolleyes:

studderigdave
13-04-2007, 23:14
-termie squads are 5 large, period

-one heavy weapon per squad

-mixing of assault weapons

-assault sqauds can still take a cyclone launcher

-total loss of veteran skills

-no transport options (can still eat heavy slots for transports though)

-have to take "belial" to run termies as troops

-termie chappy cant have thunderhammers anymore, or alot of other options at that.

-HQ lost mantle and halo. gave it all to the bike riders.

-1st turn deepstrike with half your termies (GW had to throw us a bone for all the stuff they took away IMO)

overall i am dissapointed with the changes. but it is what it is.

Onisuzume
13-04-2007, 23:45
-termie squads are 5 large, period

*list cut short*

overall i am dissapointed with the changes. but it is what it is.
You forgot to add that the termis are now cheaper then ever.

dblaz3r
14-04-2007, 00:28
so if they have no transport options but can take LR & LRC`s as heavy slots does that mean I can still start the game with termies loaded in or do I have to set them up separate then climb into the vehicles during the movement phase?

Vaktathi
14-04-2007, 00:31
You forgot to add that the termis are now cheaper then ever.

? They are still 3pts more than C:SM terminators...

Darkangeldentist
14-04-2007, 00:49
Yes but that's still less expensive than they were before. Previously 5pts and before even that 10pts. Comparitively they're the cheapest they've ever been.

Ronin_eX
14-04-2007, 07:19
Yeah, the extra three points is because they come with their veteran skills (fearless and DW Assault) already. A C: SM terminator with FC cost the same and aren't nearly as flexible (or cool :p).

As for my view of the changes, I use three DW squads in all of my games as my sole troop choice. The loss of one HW is nothing compared to putting LCs into a squad with a heavy flamer. I decimated a six man BT Terminator squad in a single (player) turn with my DW squad and took no casualties in return during CC. And who needs transports when you have RW bikes and a first turn deepstrike? The shock of an opponent needing to deal with so many terminators on his first turn often causes panic as they quickly focus all attention on a handful of models. I heartilly recommend taking at least one squad in any list if for no other reason than keeping the enemy on his toes.

Onisuzume
14-04-2007, 09:53
Yes but that's still less expensive than they were before. Previously 5pts and before even that 10pts. Comparitively they're the cheapest they've ever been.
12 actually...
And back in 2nd edition it was closer to 65/model afaik.(based off codex army lists, also a work of JJ)

And to be honest; I think that pure Deathwing is still viable and maybe even competitive enough for tournament play. (got 17 termi's laying around waiting for me to pick up my paint brush again)

The Emperor
14-04-2007, 13:14
Here's what Deathwing get.

- Deathwing Terminator Squads come in 5-man units.

- One heavy weapon (Assault Cannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher, or Heavy Flamer). The Assault Cannon is more expensive than the Codex: Space Marines equivalent, while the Cyclone Missile Launcher and Heavy Flamer are cheaper than their Codex: Space Marines equivalents.

- Deathwing Terminators are the same price as Codex: Space Marines Terminators with Veteran Skills.

- Deathwing Terminators are Fearless.

- Deathwing Terminators have an ability called Deathwing Assault. Half of all Deathwing units in Reserve, rounded up, can Deep Strike on turn 1. Independent Characters can be attached to any units using Deathwing Assault and thus Deep Strike on turn 1, too.

- Any Deathwing Terminator can substitute his Storm Bolter and Power Fist/Power Weapon for a pair of Lightning Claws or a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield (Note: It's possible to have a Deathwing Terminator with Lightning Claws and a Cyclone Missile Launcher).

- Belial is the Master of the Deathwing. He has the stats of a Codex: Space Marines Master and comes with a suit of Terminator Armor, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon, and a Storm Bolter. He can exchange his weapons for a pair of Lightning Claws or a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield.

- If you take Belial then Deathwing Terminators can be taken as Troops as well as Elites.

- If you take Belial then one Deathwing Terminator Squad can include a Deathwing Standard Bearer and an Apothecary. The Deathwing Company Banner gives a morale bonus to Dark Angels units within 12" and gives a +1 Attack bonus to the unit it's a part of.

- Land Raiders and Land Raider Crusaders can't be taken as Transports. Nothing stopping you from buying them as Heavy Support choices, though, and deploying a Deathwing squad inside them at the start of the game.

- Unlike Codex: Space Marines, you're not restricted to one Venerable Dreadnought, and can make all your Dreadnoughts Venerable.

That's about it.

Art Is Resistance
14-04-2007, 13:29
I used a deathwing army the other night for the first time since the new DA came out - 4 squads of DW with a RW squadron and a squad of ten scouts in support - kicked @ss.....

I like the new rules - to me, they work quite well.

UncleCrazy
14-04-2007, 16:29
I am waiting on the New DA codex my self. I am dusting off my old Fallen army and getting it ready to field for the first time. Sometimes I use Chaos sometimes I use Imp.

Red_Lep
14-04-2007, 16:55
I used a deathwing army the other night for the first time since the new DA came out - 4 squads of DW with a RW squadron and a squad of ten scouts in support - kicked @ss.....

I like the new rules - to me, they work quite well.

You do realise thats not a DW army right?

As for your question, like others have said they are cheaper, fearless, and can mix which make them a little better. From what I've heard, the designers wanted you to use Doublewing so they made a pure DW army alot harder to pull off(IMO you can't pull it off effectively)

Lyinar
14-04-2007, 23:20
You do realise thats not a DW army right?

Ah yes, because of course the Deathwing NEVER fight with units from other companies supporting them.

dblaz3r
14-04-2007, 23:23
Thankyou The Emporer for answering my not so smart question, as I haven`t yet played a game and am a stickler for getting every detail down I may from time to time ask the completely obvious.
The noob has spoken. BTW I find noob to be quite a ridiculous word.

Red_Lep
14-04-2007, 23:36
Ah yes, because of course the Deathwing NEVER fight with units from other companies supporting them.

I meant that the DW use Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders. I know its dumb but it just bugs me seeing alot of new armies called DW when they're not. Sorry if it annoyed you.

Thunderkiss
15-04-2007, 00:53
If there are more than 3 termie squads it's DW with support units ... as it should be.

Xandros
15-04-2007, 01:04
The pure specialist army doesn't exist anymore, or is at least a far more relative concept than it used to be. It's up to players discretion more than using a special variant list. It's happened to the Craftworlds, Dark Angels, and pretty soon things like chaos cult armies will go the same route.

I'm not complaining, mind. I really like the new style of codices for the variety they bring.

Culven
15-04-2007, 01:12
so if they have no transport options but can take LR & LRC`s as heavy slots does that mean I can still start the game with termies loaded in or do I have to set them up separate then climb into the vehicles during the movement phase?
This is covered by the Deployment rules in the rulebook.

dblaz3r
15-04-2007, 01:46
noted, thanks for the heads up, more reading to do on my part.

alex03
15-04-2007, 05:38
Ah yes, because of course the Deathwing NEVER fight with units from other companies supporting them.

So the Deathwing would NEVER fight without other companies supporting them?

I think people who play DW want to play pure DW. Otherwise they wouldn't have painted up a complete army of only them, right? Fluff wise the DW would probably not fight alone very often, but I assume people play them for the coolness factor of having a complete DW only army.

Worsle
15-04-2007, 09:23
So the Deathwing would NEVER fight without other companies supporting them?

I think people who play DW want to play pure DW. Otherwise they wouldn't have painted up a complete army of only them, right? Fluff wise the DW would probably not fight alone very often, but I assume people play them for the coolness factor of having a complete DW only army.

What does that have to do with some one calling their army the DW when theey take some supporting units? No one said you could not field a "pure" DW army but that does not mean you should say it is the only way.

Onisuzume
15-04-2007, 09:35
So the Deathwing would NEVER fight without other companies supporting them?
They do, but they ain't called Deathwing then. (or at least the army isn't)

I think people who play DW want to play pure DW. Otherwise they wouldn't have painted up a complete army of only them, right? Fluff wise the DW would probably not fight alone very often, but I assume people play them for the coolness factor of having a complete DW only army.
And actually; DW does fight alone often.
Pretty much everytime they've tracked down one of the fallen.

The pure specialist army doesn't exist anymore, or is at least a far more relative concept than it used to be. It's up to players discretion more than using a special variant list. It's happened to the Craftworlds, Dark Angels, and pretty soon things like chaos cult armies will go the same route.
I guess, though we can still make most armies if we try it.
Deathwing and Ravenwing are still possible without having to use non-deathwing or non-ravenwing units.

If there are more than 3 termie squads it's DW with support units ... as it should be.
I'd call that battle company with heavy deathwing support, not deathwing.

As for your question, like others have said they are cheaper, fearless, and can mix which make them a little better. From what I've heard, the designers wanted you to use Doublewing so they made a pure DW army alot harder to pull off(IMO you can't pull it off effectively)
It all depends on tactics.
Most people like to see their terminators in close combat; I don't.
With termies being able to move and fire unrestricted, we can move and shoot every turn without problems. 24" should be the desired distance imo.

I meant that the DW use Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders. I know its dumb but it just bugs me seeing alot of new armies called DW when they're not. Sorry if it annoyed you.
Don't worry, you're probably not the only one who feels that way. (I feel roughly the same about it)
Though you forgot to add characters to that list.

I used a deathwing army the other night for the first time since the new DA came out - 4 squads of DW with a RW squadron and a squad of ten scouts in support - kicked @ss.....
To be honest; I highly doubt the frequency of DW and scouts fighting in the same battle. Scouts know nothing of the fallen and DW is charged with bringing the fallen in...
And btw, why would an army kick a donkey?:wtf:

Btw; would you people call this a Deathwing army?
Belial, 2×Deathwing Squad with AC, 2×Deathwing Squad with CML, Mortis with ACs, Land Raider. With 15 points to spare at 1500 point battles.(maybe extra armour @ land raider)

wilsonian
15-04-2007, 10:04
I'm very disappointed with the new codex. I can make a far stronger list using the normal C:SM - have two 5 man "bare" scout squads, use the trait to use dread's in heavy slot and take 3 squads of termies - not to mention a small 4 man CHQ squad to help the libby/chappy.

I know it's not "pure deathwing" but it puts out alot more fire power and given tank hunting skills it just doesn't compare.

GW has taken the teeth out of DW IMHO.

Art Is Resistance
15-04-2007, 12:09
Bloody hell... I never meant to kick off an arguement...

I call it deathwing because it is 90% deathwing - I used the RW to almost, 'call in' DW units - thats in the fluff in the DA codex - RW ride in, scout out the enemy and give a lock on for the DW teleporters - which is exactly what I did!

As it happens, I do have a 'pure' DW force - 10 squds of termies - with 3 dreads and 2 LRs for support - but thought I would try out the 'new' way of using supporting units to see what happenned - I was very happy....

So, if it's in the fluff, and I played it that way, surely it counts as a DW army?

yabbadabba
15-04-2007, 12:18
I'm very disappointed with the new codex. I can make a far stronger list using the normal C:SM - have two 5 man "bare" scout squads, use the trait to use dread's in heavy slot and take 3 squads of termies - not to mention a small 4 man CHQ squad to help the libby/chappy.

I know it's not "pure deathwing" but it puts out alot more fire power and given tank hunting skills it just doesn't compare.

GW has taken the teeth out of DW IMHO.

I kind of feel this post illustrates 2 points.

The first - most importantly for me - is that it shouldn't just be about uber armies. These have a place in highly competitive play. The joy of any army list is that it comes with strengths and wekanesses and that means the army books reflect "real life" more accurately that way than with any rules change. Winning with a strong army is easy - a real test of gamesmanship is doing it with a weak or underpointed army :)

The second is a minor point which i know has been repeated elsewhere - I see C:SM as broken. It's great for campaign games with themes but for teaching and/or tournament games it allows too much opportunity for maximising effect and minimising weakness. An army like that is IMHO not fun to play against.

Templar Ben
15-04-2007, 13:08
So far I have found that my BT DW is more effective than the C: DA DW as well. It may be because I have more experience with BT then DA but that one AC isn't very good when you are in HTH. Those LC aren't very good when you are 24" away. The ML/LC combo helps with that but I prefer to have a unit that operates well together not some hodge-podge group where everyone needs to engage a different type of unit.

Onisuzume
15-04-2007, 13:24
I call it deathwing because it is 90% deathwing - I used the RW to almost, 'call in' DW units - thats in the fluff in the DA codex - RW ride in, scout out the enemy and give a lock on for the DW teleporters - which is exactly what I did!
That's called "Doublewing".
Ravenwing "calls in" deathwing sometimes, not always.

So far I have found that my BT DW is more effective than the C: DA DW as well. It may be because I have more experience with BT then DA but that one AC isn't very good when you are in HTH.
Then why don't you try to stay out of HTh for a change?
Those LC aren't very good when you are 24" away.
What's a lightning claw?

The ML/LC combo helps with that but I prefer to have a unit that operates well together not some hodge-podge group where everyone needs to engage a different type of unit.
Imo; 5-men squads ain't big enough to allow proper use of mixed cc/range weapons. Since you'll probably end up having a unit that isn't good at either of them.

A CC tooled squad has to either slog is across the board, teleport in and get shot at by most units in range, or race inside a land raider. First is horribly ineffective, the second most likely means the end of that unit, and the third suffers from the huge points cost. And then you get the fact that a 5-men fearless unit gets to suffer from "No Retreat!" pretty quickly. The lack ofsweeping advance also leaves them more vulnerable a assault units.

While a unit with 5 storm bolters and a CML can do damage from turn one without having to risk deep striking or counter-assaults. Power fists allows them to take down tough enemies, or can be switched off for killing weaker enemies.(if those survive the rain of bolter shells that is)

Templar Ben
15-04-2007, 14:19
That's called "Doublewing".
Ravenwing "calls in" deathwing sometimes, not always.

Then why don't you try to stay out of HTh for a change?
What's a lightning claw?

Imo; 5-men squads ain't big enough to allow proper use of mixed cc/range weapons. Since you'll probably end up having a unit that isn't good at either of them.

A CC tooled squad has to either slog is across the board, teleport in and get shot at by most units in range, or race inside a land raider. First is horribly ineffective, the second most likely means the end of that unit, and the third suffers from the huge points cost. And then you get the fact that a 5-men fearless unit gets to suffer from "No Retreat!" pretty quickly. The lack ofsweeping advance also leaves them more vulnerable a assault units.

While a unit with 5 storm bolters and a CML can do damage from turn one without having to risk deep striking or counter-assaults. Power fists allows them to take down tough enemies, or can be switched off for killing weaker enemies.(if those survive the rain of bolter shells that is)

I can't read your tone. LC are found on page 50 of the DA codex.

The DW are able to take a mixed squad. By your response it sounds like you are saying they are too small to do that effectively. If so I agree. That is why I have found my BT to be more effective even without a first turn DS.

carl
15-04-2007, 15:01
The LC comment was a sarcastic reply. What he's saying is that ordinary terminators, (when you consider their move and shoot abilities), are far Superior to melee terminators in most cases, especially since they have a 5+ invulnerable and PF's for if they do get in melee. Add to that how much firepower a terminator can bring and in his view theirs no point to being able mix and match most of the time as it's a waste of good ranged firepower and you don't lose a lot of melee power doing it anyway so it's no big deal.

I'd largely agree with this stance, their are doubtless times when mixed melee/ranged works well, but a lot of the time the ranged type is so much better.

Catferret
15-04-2007, 15:19
Sadly, I have to agree about mixed weapons being not that useful.

From personal experience, losing out on a Stormbolter (even just one) puts a serious damper on your ranged combat ability and battlefield flexibility. I have been fielding squads with a single LC termie per squad and wished I had more Stormbolters. The Claws are great against lower Initiative troops but do you little good against Eldar and nothing against Tanks/Dreadnaughts.

I have a Close Combat Command Squad of Death too and it has almost all Claws plus a Heavy Flamer/Powerfist. It's great if you can make it into combat but in hindsight I would have stuck with Stormbolters and Powerfists. Unless you have Ravenwing for the Teleport Homers you can't Deepstrike close enough without risking losing the squad to a bad deviation roll. You need to get close or the enemy will just keep running away and denying you the opportunity to engage in H2H.

Bruen
15-04-2007, 16:44
Ah yes, because of course the Deathwing NEVER fight with units from other companies supporting them.

If it contains anything other than models which are part of the Deathwing then its not a Deathwing army, its a Dark Angels army with some Deathwing units.

Catferret
15-04-2007, 16:58
Surely as long as the army includes Belial, Master of the Deathwing, then it is a Deathwing army...?

Thommy H
15-04-2007, 17:10
A Deathwing army, by definition, is one that contains only units that belong to the Deathwing. Since the new C: DA the line has become blurred because it doesn't work how it did in the last version - you don't have to choose when you start collecting whether it's "Dark Angels", "Deathwing" or "Ravenwing", you just take the requisite character and get the applicable unit selection advantage.

I much prefer the new system, but it means that a "Deathwing army" is now equivelant to playing a "Scouts only" army with C: SM or "Just Aspect Warriors" with Eldar - it's an artifical, voluntary limitation like any other.

Bruen
15-04-2007, 17:31
Surely as long as the army includes Belial, Master of the Deathwing, then it is a Deathwing army...?

Huh? Why would that be the case?

Belal is Master of the Deathwing but that doesn't make everyone that he commands into a member of the Deathwing or the Inner Circle.

The thing about Deathwing armies is that they are allowed to know more of the DA secrets than regular DA marines.

Xandros
15-04-2007, 17:39
We'll all just have to accept, that now the type of army you play is more into the realm of fluff than ever before. Having an army led by Belial is a strong hint though. Of all the Grand Masters, only the Master of the Deathwing wears terminator armour. I'd say, his presence is synonymous with the Deathwing itself, no matter what auxiliary units the army may have attached.

Brockafally
15-04-2007, 17:49
ok fine, something with only Dreadnoughts, terminators, and landraiders is deathwing.

The OP is asking for advice not a definition argument for crying out loud. Stop bickering and help him.

I've never seen the DA codex, but I've been told about them (and read about them a lot). It's the same problem with pure Greyknights. Either a lack of models or lack of anti-tank firepower. Luckily enough Deathwing have AC's and cyclone missile launcher, but the biggest crux is that they can only take one heavy weapon limit the amount of firepower they can dish out.

You have to have a mix of support (landraiders/dreads) and units of terminators. At least one (venerable, obviously) and a landraider with all lascannons. That should be able to help out. No point taking a crusader since your squad size can never go above 5 (well without a character, but no point buying a LRC for just 6 people).

As for mix CC units. It can work but the only thing you'd want to mix is a heavy flamer into a complete CC squad.

You'd deepstrike the CC squad close to the enemy (it's a gamble, but winning in any game eventually involves a gamble of some sort). and force the enemy to either expend a stupid amount of firepower killing it or avoid it. Problem is by flanking either side of his army with your other deepstriking squads your putting on the pressure.
Where's he going to go? Into the gauntlets of your other Termi squads or out into the open where your support squads will eat his tanks piecemeal.

Any army that can pump multiple deepstriking squads down close to the enemy is a pressure army. Building up the pressure and constricting movement of even mobile armies.

Deathwing played smartly can do surprisingly well . Look at the chaos "wing" armies and they can do well without the firepower of their loyalist counterparts.

Keep pushing with it and properly tune up your deathwing. I would say 6 squads should be good (3 to deepstrike first turn) a CC squad into the centre of the enemy army and two on the flanks providing pressure. Support units such as venerable dreads and landraiders in the backcourt making the enemy think twice before walking out.

If your playing against CC armies, keep the CC squad back as a counterstrike army for later turns while your shooter squads sit back 24" and put constant shooting into them.

DeadEye
15-04-2007, 17:51
That may be the case, but when people say Deathwing army, they mean HQ in Terminator Armour, Terminators, Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders.

Any effective DW-heavy army in the future is going to need to be combined with other elements of the DA army-list, and as such, won't be a 'true' Deathwing army in the purest sense. A combined-DA force isn't Deathwing, it's DA.

Brockafally
15-04-2007, 17:57
a deathwing army with support can do well if you do some thinking. Any army can do well if you cover all your bases in army composition. They may have less models but being fearless with a 2+ armour save is rock hard.

The Eldar armies of starcannon death are long gone and are replaced nowadays with scatter lasers and shuriken cannons for max firepower. Even though squads which do have starcannons can be singled out fast and dropped even faster. Few weapons in the game can drop deathwing fast. Each army has a few AP2 weapons that they regularily use and you can focus fire to take them out. Then your sitting comfy.

OP, play the army you want. Deathwing is still strong, you just have to think a little more. :P

Personally you should be taking teleport homers on the squads that come down first with a reliable first turn DS. Then those that come in later can piggy back the termi's that are already close to the enemy. Keep the pressure mounting. That's how it should be done. Although, again I haven't read the DA codex so I don't know if terminators can even take Teleport homers. If they can't,well then your going to have to keep gambling with those DS rolls. :D

Bruen
15-04-2007, 18:08
We'll all just have to accept, that now the type of army you play is more into the realm of fluff than ever before.

I don't play them anymore, Deathwing armies got so badly hammered by the the new codex so mine is back on the shelf until another version of C:DA is released. I've had the figures since Space Hulk so its no big deal.


Having an army led by Belial is a strong hint though. Of all the Grand Masters, only the Master of the Deathwing wears terminator armour. I'd say, his presence is synonymous with the Deathwing itself, no matter what auxiliary units the army may have attached.

Thats like saying that you have a Khorne army because it is lead by a character with his mark even though the rest of the units are dedicated to other gods. Is that a Khorne army? No, its an undivided army.

In the same way an army that consists of regular DA units with a few Deathwing units lead by Belial is a DA army, not a Deathwing army.

Back on topic I strongly suggest going with a Doublewing army (Deathwing terminators lead by Belial with a scouting element of Ravenwing). I cannot see how a Deathwing army can be competative these days, I certainly couldn't come up with a reliable list.

Red_Lep
15-04-2007, 18:12
a deathwing army with support can do well if you do some thinking. Any army can do well if you cover all your bases in army composition. They may have less models but being fearless with a 2+ armour save is rock hard.

The Eldar armies of starcannon death are long gone and are replaced nowadays with scatter lasers and shuriken cannons for max firepower. Even though squads which do have starcannons can be singled out fast and dropped even faster. Few weapons in the game can drop deathwing fast. Each army has a few AP2 weapons that they regularily use and you can focus fire to take them out. Then your sitting comfy.

OP, play the army you want. Deathwing is still strong, you just have to think a little more. :P

Personally you should be taking teleport homers on the squads that come down first with a reliable first turn DS. Then those that come in later can piggy back the termi's that are already close to the enemy. Keep the pressure mounting. That's how it should be done. Although, again I haven't read the DA codex so I don't know if terminators can even take Teleport homers. If they can't,well then your going to have to keep gambling with those DS rolls. :D

True, alot of armies don't have alot of AP2 weapons but that is not the bane of DW(from personal experience and from others) What really threatens DW is the fact that, for most armies, you'll be majorly out-numbered. It doesn't matter that you have a 2+ save if you have to take thirty or more a turn(rapid fire, blast, template, ect.) Also, I looked and you can't have teleport homers.

EarlGrey
15-04-2007, 18:42
Could someone explain how pure Deathwing armies are less powerful than making the "equivalent" in Codex Space Marines?

The Dark Angels codex allows you 6 squads of 5 Terminators as troops, and either Dreadnaughts or another more squads of 5. Total of 30 to 45 standard Terminators.
Space Marines we get, max of 30 (3 x 10 in Elites), right? But they can't mix and match close combat weapons in the squad. However, they get 2 heavy weapons and larger squad sizes (although you'll rarely outnumber an opponent anyway).

To get Dreadnaughts you have to use traits. So, similar again we can have 30Terminators and 3 dreadnaughts.
3 Land Raiders - Heavy Support for Deathwing, dedicated transport for normal Marines.

So, both armies can have 3 Dreadnaughts, 30 Terminators, and 3 Land Raiders. Terminator Master (Belial for Deathwing), then a Chaplain or Librarian in Terminator armour.
But - Dark Angels get to the nifty Apothecary and Standard Bearer in Terminator armour... and Deathwing assault.

So, what makes using standard Codex Space Marines so much better than the Dark Angels codex, they both seem pretty of equal, except the Deathwing army is pure Terminators (and can teleport 15 or 25 Terminators on Turn 1). What did I miss? :confused:

DeadEye
15-04-2007, 18:45
They don't. Remember when Terminator armour actually included teleport homers? Sigh.

To answer your question, EarlGrey, it's more that pre-4th ed Codex, DW were Codex Terminators, only with an extra ability called Stubborn and the ability to take DW units as troop choices. So you could have 60 Terminators if you wanted (and had the points!)

Now they've lost a heavy weapon per squad, can't take veteran skills, can't fully load out 8 Terminators in a LRC, can't pick your choice of HQ (and Belial is a fairly bland choice), can't increase your squad cap beyond 5 (6 Termies is nice because you have to kill four to make it non-scoring rather than three).

As a side note, and this is a detriment to Codex Termies, taking LRs as transport options precludes them from being scoring units, and you want as many scoring units as possible in a Terminator heavy army. This is why in a pre-4th ed DW army, you took DW Termies as troops, Dreads as Elites, and and LRs you needed for transport as Heavy Support choices.

Combining assault weapons with normal weapons is generally considered sub-par. You don't want your assault Terminators out of assault, and if you're shooting with Deathwing, you need as many guns as possible firing at once since your number of guns is so limited to start with. Mixing squads means that at any point in the battle, mismatched squaddies aren't performing. Deathwing Assault is... okay. But the loss of firepower from losing heavy weapons out of squads kind of hurts. And teleporting Assault Terminators is like sticking a giant "Kill Me" sign on them.

Brockafally
15-04-2007, 18:51
the biggest difference? Is that C:SM termi's are cheaper, can take two heavy weapons and if you give them tank hunters can reliably drop any vehicle in the game (except the monolith). Deathwing terminators pale in comparison to anti-tank duties. Also, the two assault cannon C:SM squads can put out a good amount of firepower compared to the deathwing ones. Everyone is so used to using two assaults cannons in their termi squad that to have the option of only taking one means (your weaker). Whether they make up for it with deathwing assault and fearless I would say yes. Being able to deepstrike 3 units on the first turn is deadly.

I do have a question though. Can anyone tell me if the deathwing assault rule can only be used for Belial is taken or if only termi's or taken? Or can it be used even if you include deathwing in a normal DA army?

Bruen
15-04-2007, 18:55
Could someone explain how pure Deathwing armies are less powerful than making the "equivalent" in Codex Space Marines?

One heavy weapon per squad and you can no longer have 6-man squads which makes it easier to render a unit non-scoring. Captain Useless isn't a bad HQ but he is not as good as those available to C:SM.

Red_Lep
15-04-2007, 18:56
Could someone explain how pure Deathwing armies are less powerful than making the "equivalent" in Codex Space Marines?

The Dark Angels codex allows you 6 squads of 5 Terminators as troops, and either Dreadnaughts or another more squads of 5. Total of 30 to 45 standard Terminators.
Space Marines we get, max of 30 (3 x 10 in Elites), right? But they can't mix and match close combat weapons in the squad. However, they get 2 heavy weapons and larger squad sizes (although you'll rarely outnumber an opponent anyway).

To get Dreadnaughts you have to use traits. So, similar again we can have 30Terminators and 3 dreadnaughts.
3 Land Raiders - Heavy Support for Deathwing, dedicated transport for normal Marines.

So, both armies can have 3 Dreadnaughts, 30 Terminators, and 3 Land Raiders. Terminator Master (Belial for Deathwing), then a Chaplain or Librarian in Terminator armour.
But - Dark Angels get to the nifty Apothecary and Standard Bearer in Terminator armour... and Deathwing assault.

So, what makes using standard Codex Space Marines so much better than the Dark Angels codex, they both seem pretty of equal, except the Deathwing army is pure Terminators (and can teleport 15 or 25 Terminators on Turn 1). What did I miss? :confused:

Your right, you can have alot of Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders. But, to take all that you'd have to be playing something like 3000 points atleast, without alot of cool shiny stuff. The Dreadnoughts alone cost alot more than C:SM Dreadnought. I can get a Ven. Dreadnought with Flamer/Ass. Cannon, E. Armor, Drop pod for the price of a DA Ven. Dreadnought with E. Armor.

Master Bait
16-04-2007, 01:59
One heavy weapon per squad and you can no longer have 6-man squads which makes it easier to render a unit non-scoring. Captain Useless isn't a bad HQ but he is not as good as those available to C:SM.

if you take 6 5 man units, you get the same amount of heavy weapons as you do with 3 10 men ones.

as well as CC weapons.

Red_Lep
16-04-2007, 02:28
if you take 6 5 man units, you get the same amount of heavy weapons as you do with 3 10 men ones.

as well as CC weapons.

True, but the CC weapons lessen the effect of the HW.

Master Bait
16-04-2007, 03:07
??? well you can't really say that seeing the weapons fire regardless, at full effect whether the rest of the squad has CC weapons or not

if what you're talking about is the effectiveness of a HW supported by storm bolters, then yeah, your ranged effectiveness is going to be hampered.

but you also won't be able to fight as effectively in CC without the LCs and THs.

Red_Lep
16-04-2007, 03:18
I meant that you'll be trying to get into combat so you'll shoot less.

thorwa1
16-04-2007, 04:01
I for one like the new changes and have had some pretty good success with it. For one, I never liked the fact that the Deathwing had such a limited vehicle selection. I don't see any reason why a Predator or Vindicator wouldn't fit perfectly fine in a DW army fluff wise and tactically. I use a Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader, and a Vindicator in my 2,000 pt and it has worked quite well.

I don't like the new DA rules and points for the Dreads, so I decided a vindicator fits better.

DeadEye
16-04-2007, 04:05
Fluff wise, because Preds/Vindicators aren't crewed by members of the 1st company. One would assume that LRs are, since they're transporting the DW around.

Master Bait
16-04-2007, 05:06
well they'd be members, but probably NOT actually part of the DW though? seeing their trained by the Adeptus Mechanicus, don;t they actually have their loyalty to Mars as well as the DAs?

DeadEye
16-04-2007, 05:24
They probably are part of the DW, just in a crew capacity. I'm pretty sure Marine tank crews aren't trained by Admech, just the Techmarines. Given the DA Chapter history, I'd doubt there's much loyalty to Mars over the Chapter anyway.

Vindicators/Preds aren't attached to Companies like LRs are, they're drawn from the Chapter Armoury. So it stands to reason that those crewing those vehicles are not inducted into the 1st company. You can't be a member of the 1st company, yet not a DW. The 1st Company is the Deathwing.

Bruen
16-04-2007, 07:59
if you take 6 5 man units, you get the same amount of heavy weapons as you do with 3 10 men ones.

Who ever took 10-man units?

intellectawe
16-04-2007, 13:47
Ugh, looks like I have a few Termies with Ass Cannons to sell since I can't use them now.

The changes look decent, nothing groundbreaking.

Xandros
16-04-2007, 14:27
The Dark Angels dreadnought is clearly more expensive. As well, I think it needs to be. I think it's pretty tough to be able to have basically heavy support in an elite slot, armoured no less.

Onisuzume
16-04-2007, 15:08
The Dark Angels dreadnought is clearly more expensive. As well, I think it needs to be. I think it's pretty tough to be able to have basically heavy support in an elite slot, armoured no less.
Then you can get a Mortis for the same points cost instead = problem solved. (assuming you go for autocannons, you can go a lot cheaper with twin missiles or twin heavy bolters)

As for havin too many assault cannons, it's your own fault I guess.
They went from awesome in 2nd edition to crap in 3rd to awesome in 4th to overpriced in 4th ed. DA.
Kinda see a pattern here.

Rider-Of-Kurnous
16-04-2007, 16:31
.

- If you take Belial then Deathwing Terminators can be taken as Troops as well as Elites.

- If you take Belial then one Deathwing Terminator Squad can include a Deathwing Standard Bearer and an Apothecary. The Deathwing Company Banner gives a morale bonus to Dark Angels units within 12" and gives a +1 Attack bonus to the unit it's a part of.



Not fair!!! TERMINATORS AS TROOPS!!!! WHAT WERE GW THINKING!!!!

Thommy H
16-04-2007, 17:32
Not fair!!! TERMINATORS AS TROOPS!!!! WHAT WERE GW THINKING!!!!

The same as they've been thinking with the Deathwing for the last...what? 8 or 9 years?

Onisuzume
16-04-2007, 19:41
Not fair!!! TERMINATORS AS TROOPS!!!! WHAT WERE GW THINKING!!!!
Deathwing is what they were thinking I guess.
Back in 3rd edition (and pre-codex 4th) we could have terminators as elites, troops, fast attack *and* heavy support.
That's 15 squads of terminators.

The same as they've been thinking with the Deathwing for the last...what? 8 or 9 years?
Longer I think.
More like 14-15 years or even longer then that. (2nd edition had terminators as squads and not as support)

Master Bait
16-04-2007, 22:21
Who ever took 10-man units?

i dunno, but we were just talking about comparative numbers of terms to make an all term list hypothetically, so it doesn't matter if they'd actually take them or not

Bruen
16-04-2007, 22:36
i dunno, but we were just talking about comparative numbers of terms to make an all term list hypothetically, so it doesn't matter if they'd actually take them or not

OK, but in the real world of units that people actually take the move from two heavy weapons in a 6-man squad to one in a 5-man squad is a problem because the 5-man squad isn't a lot cheaper but you loose half your effective firepower.

When I say that its not a lot cheaper I mean that its not so much cheaper that you can buy enough extra squads to make up the difference.

Xandros
16-04-2007, 22:57
Fearless. First turn deep strike.