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View Full Version : Orc and Goblin army book, uninspiring?



Killshot
14-04-2007, 02:09
I've been out of the Fantasy loop for a while (like 3 years) and decided to get back into WFB. So I bought the Battle for Skull Pass thinking it would be the best way to get back in. I sold the dwarfs since I didn't like the models and have never been a fan of dwarf background and army structure.

The Night Goblins looked good and I decided to try them out and picked up the Army book. That is as far as I have gotten. Normally an Army book would peak my interest and I would at least work on a few army lists and paint up some models. I have done nothing with them for months, not even painted a goblin.

I can't decide if the army book isn't very good or if I just don't like Orcs and Goblins like I thought I would.

Thoughts?

sephiroth87
14-04-2007, 02:51
I have an orc and goblin army made, with the exception of Grom the Paunch and 2 giants, entirely out of the old and new starter boxes. I'm having a blast playing them and they're actually pretty interesting to play. I like the fact that everyone underrates them, because the wins look that much more spectacular.

However, playing the army is like herding cats, which is what the designers had in mind, I suspect. My army never does what it's supposed to, but I have a lot of fun with it. And taking 8 chariots in an orc army is a LOT better than people realize.

People dog the army book to hell and back, but I think it's pretty well done. Maybe your impressions from reading internet posts and your own ideas about how the army was supposed to work has thrown you a bit or colored your opinion. If I were you, I would play a few times, scream "WAAAAAAGH" when something good happens, and generally have a good time with it.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
14-04-2007, 10:18
Having played O/G for the majority of 6th edition and thus far in 7th edition, I have to say that it's still a lot of fun to play. While I feel (and know) that the current incarnation of the army is much weaker than it's previous incarnation, it's in no way an underpowered army. You simply have to adapt to the variety of situations you will encounter when your troops take the initiative and don't do what you want them to do. Basically, as with all armies (but especially with orcs and goblins) cussedness, patience, and cunning will allow you to overcome all the inherrent obstacles of the army. You're going to have to accept that sometimes you'll lose purely to lack of discipline.

I agree that the book is very uninspiring. Gordon Davidson or Adrian Wood would have written a more characterful and interesting book (if not grossly overpowered given both's distinct lack of experience in game design). However, the true fun of being a green player is not reading the book and feeling green pride (which I do feel), but on the field of battle.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
14-04-2007, 10:35
The new book doesn't have a lot of background, its basically orcs like fighting, at least there are shiny new models, Gorbad is so awesome!

Is it true that noone takes orcs and goblins to tournaments anymore?:confused:

truthsayer
14-04-2007, 10:45
I think with the new Orc and Goblin book GW have put in a lot more effort into making it characterful and easier to use. I dont quite understand how the army is now much weaker than its previous incarnation though Bingo?

I would say it is a lot better now, all the complicated rules have been changed somehow (see both variety of squig, fanatics and the like).

Maybe jumping back into an army and expecting yourself to automatically love it and paint everything up in a couple of weeks is setting youself up not to Killshot. play a few games with them and tailor yourslef to what you like, I havent painted anything for 4 months now, i just cant find the effort! I still play though and one day when i start painting again you wont be able to stop me.

Get youself a characterful general and make yourself an army round him, put some extra detail in the background for him and you'll find yourself inspired eventually..


edit.. apart from the gobbo's getting a little worse and the boar boys and big uns going up in points i think they arent that bad. we all know why those points went up though, its because gw have got to sell bfsp and the new plastic black orcs.

Killshot
14-04-2007, 15:17
I didn't pick Orcs and Goblins because I wanted to win every game. I thought I would try them out because they are the "barbarians" of the game. They don't fight because they are evil, they fight because that is what they do. I just didn't think the book really captured any "feel" to the army. I will keep trying and see if they spark for me.

Heretic Burner
14-04-2007, 18:41
It is no secret that O&G have a poor book. Doesn't take long to look around even on these pro-GW boards to see the general disgust with the book. You are quite correct it isn't a very inspiring book at all. Poorly made. Poorly balanced. Poorly edited. Just plain poor all around. The large chunk in the back of the book serving little more than an ad for the models just doesn't help at all.

So what to do? Well there are lots of options. First is probably the best choice and that is stick with the 6th edition book. Most players consider it solidly written and it captured the fun that O&G armies should be. If you can't do that I would suggest looking at another army. O&G just might not be for you anymore, you wouldn't be the first one. There have been many players disgusted with the new direction of O&G and have dropped their army completely. Find another army that is fun, I am having a blast with Empire lately and maybe you might too.

intellectawe
14-04-2007, 20:16
I play against the new ork army regularly, and I can say that the book is quit powerful. Just dont run goblins :)

xiau
14-04-2007, 20:33
personally i don't like the new army book that much. imo there are maybe only one or two items i'd ever consider taking, also i can't say i'm a fan of the models to be honest, it's probably the only book in the range im not to fond of

zak
14-04-2007, 20:42
I have to say that I don't think that the Orcs and Gobbo's have suffered by the re-write of their book. Sure the army composition has changed in most armies (away from gobbo's), but they are still a very unpredictable and powerful army. The trolls are more flexible, the Orcs are improved and the Waaaagh special rule is a potential game winner. If you really need a little background just to play Orcs and get their feel then this really is the wrong army for you.

strv
14-04-2007, 20:59
The new book doesn't have a lot of background, its basically orcs like fighting, at least there are shiny new models, Gorbad is so awesome!



Compared to the old one, that had three pages of battles, and a little text at the unit entries?

Shimmergloom
14-04-2007, 22:47
Well everyone else got an 80pg army book. We got 58pgs and about 30 poorly written rules that needed errata. About 10 were answered so far. Only 20 more to go!

Brother Siccarius
15-04-2007, 05:39
It is no secret that O&G have a poor book. Doesn't take long to look around even on these pro-GW boards to see the general disgust with the book. You are quite correct it isn't a very inspiring book at all. Poorly made. Poorly balanced. Poorly edited. Just plain poor all around. The large chunk in the back of the book serving little more than an ad for the models just doesn't help at all.


Considering that I see at least five of these types of replies for every army book, codex, BL book, and rumor, I'd say that it's split between pro and anti-gw. Besides, the main followers of this site play GW games....why hate GW and play their games? So of course you'll get some pro-GW people here.

As to the O&G book, I don't see it as being at all worse than the previous incarnation. I especially like the powerful selection of magic weapons and the new version of the magic rules (Night Goblin shamans and great shamans were seen far too often).

Voltaire
15-04-2007, 09:51
It would appear we have a broken record in here. It just plays the same silly tune over and over again.

The O&G book is what you make of it. If you think its a load of steam cow dung its because something about the army doesn't interest you, not because the book is inherently weak. I don't believe in such silly things as 'weak army books'.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
15-04-2007, 11:36
I dont quite understand how the army is now much weaker than its previous incarnation though Bingo?

Try playing any 6th ed list (using 6th ed book rules with 7th ed BRB rules) against a 7th ed list and you'll see the 6th edition book winning for often. Yes, Waagh is cool, as are some new aspects of the book, esp the new choppa rules. That still doesn't make up for the points descrepancy between the 6th and 7th ed books.

Regardless, i still feel our current book is balanced...if poorly written.

Killshot
15-04-2007, 12:40
It would appear we have a broken record in here. It just plays the same silly tune over and over again.

The O&G book is what you make of it. If you think its a load of steam cow dung its because something about the army doesn't interest you, not because the book is inherently weak. I don't believe in such silly things as 'weak army books'.


My originial post was about the army book not really getting across who the Orcs are. Now, I have played WFB since 4th edition so I know what the Orcs are about. I don't care about point costs and such since I play armies that interest me.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
15-04-2007, 12:56
As far as I can tell, (And I've got the old book with me right now.) the old book has three stories, a tactics section, in-depth background info on the special characters, a painting guide, and the little unit descriptions, I'd say yeah, that the old book is better than the new one.

Tutore
15-04-2007, 14:21
I'm an O&G newbie, always playing High Elves, but I found the O&G very inspiring. I have a lot of troops to choose, every battle my list is completely different, I have stupid big beasts and tiny things, warmachines and monsters. It lacks flying models, but it isn't that necessary. I'm looking forward to every battle.

Heretic Burner
15-04-2007, 17:11
Bingo is completely correct, an army picked from the 6th edition army book will flat out massacre an army picked from the 7th edition book almost every time. Since armies created from the 6th edition still did rather poorly overall in tournaments you can imagine how ghastly the new book performs.

laughingman
16-04-2007, 05:47
the only downside from the last book to the new book was a point increase in gabbos and a point from black orcs. well lets see on a direct comparison, the new book will get in combat earlier, which means alot in a movement 4 army, Overpowered fanatics were made very reasonable. 0-1's were eliminated, so themed armies can be created(more themed)

also, IMO gabbos were under priced for what they could do, i feel like there good point costed now, oh no there not as great as they were but still cheep infantry is good, think about it 30 gabbos will still beat other rank and file units especially one attack units and can defend still nice with 4+, isn't that the same as swordsmen, sure there not as good but for 2 points less a guy you get more room for other supporting units, which is the point support with combat units and hold with static 5 units.

you cant just put a 40 man gobblin unit that costs 80 points up to be a huge threat and yet still be completely expendable anymore, oh no!

The book may not be as well written but, more competitive in a 7th edition environment yes. Were not playing 6th edition anymore, 5 dollars says by the end of the revisions we will again have the cheepest infantry.[dice0]

sulla
16-04-2007, 07:32
The only thing I don't like about the new book is the fluff. The actual rules are fine and the army seems to work pretty well on the tabletop.

Warlord_Grotsnik
16-04-2007, 08:22
Goblins are not, I repeat, not overpowered for 2 points!

Avian
16-04-2007, 11:07
the only downside from the last book to the new book was a point increase in gabbos and a point from black orcs.
Maybe you need to sit down and compare the points costs a little more.

But yeah, the old book is overall more powerful than the new one and that shows if you pit the two against each other.

Where the new one really went wrong was that it basically did three things:
#1) Tone down a lot of the most abusive stuff, though generally a bit too far
#2) Improve some of the less effective stuff, though only Orc Boyz to any significant degree
#3) Make some of the units that were only barely okay actually worse


The problem is that the things that were improved did not outweigh the things that were toned down and that was with a list that was not overall too powerful to begin with. Thus it is quite possible to make an okay list, though it is quite dependant on luck to get it to work and consistently being lucky can be a problem.




Goblins are not, I repeat, not overpowered for 2 points!
The problem with Goblins currently has very little to do with the base cost of their infantry, and that is coming from a guy that currently fields an all-goblin army.

Warlord_Grotsnik
17-04-2007, 08:39
Yeah, I would agree. I'm only saying this to the people who find goblins too good for 2 points, and the only reason that is, is because they yield too many power dice on all-goblin armies and because they field little options and now they are totally worthless as an all-goblin army in the new book.

Hulkster
17-04-2007, 08:48
I got the book the other day and I was suprised at the lack of magic items, especially magic armour

also I depressed at the lack of ward saves, only 1 possible ward save in the army :(

I can see this book getting a second version in this the 7th edition of WHFB

Warlord_Grotsnik
17-04-2007, 08:53
I'll doubt that highly, Fantasy designers don't rework books like in 40k.

Hulkster
17-04-2007, 08:55
what you mean like 2 Dwarf Books in 6th edition?

Warlord_Grotsnik
17-04-2007, 09:03
The 2nd book was 7th edition.

blurred
17-04-2007, 09:11
'll doubt that highly, Fantasy designers don't rework books like in 40k.

DE were revised in 6th edition, but then again their book was absolutely ghastly whereas the new OnG book is bearable (but only just) so I don't see them revising it.

Hulkster
17-04-2007, 09:12
still, they have a distinct lack of magical items

Tutore
17-04-2007, 13:06
I read months ago, before buying the O&G armybook, the long review that Avian did. I agree with his point of view, but my opinion is that they made the orc boyz, the basic troop of the army, very effective, while it was almost unuseful in 6th edition. I remember having routed many many orc boyz units with puny high elven spearmen. This outweights, in my opinion, many of the negative things.

FuSs
17-04-2007, 13:30
Take it from the bright side guys.

Orcs and Goblins are the only army in warhammer fantasy who can field a battle standard bearer with greatweapon and two choppas :)