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Briohmar
14-04-2007, 04:53
OK, maybe I'm just a sentimental old fool, (not likely, but just seemed like a good opening,) but, last night I played a game against a youngster (20-22 years old, just a kid in my eyes) who's lizardmen were slaughtered so badly that I felt bad about it. Most of the players in the group are preparing for a large tournament in Brussels which is a pure battle points exercise. Soft points appear to be non-existent here, and I have had to adapt my viewpoint of play to face off against the heaviest builds, something I was not used to where I used to live. As such, I was playing a pretty heavy build army against this guys lizardmen. I had never met the guy before, and didn't know what to expect, and to be honest, I told him straight up that I hadn't faced a lizardmen army since fifth edition.

His army was a fairly decent balanced build, which added to my feeling bad, as I was definitely high end, consisted of an old blood with a magic weapon of some sort, and an item that allowed him an 18" charge. A Saurus Hero with an always strikes first magiuc weapon and light armor, and two skink priests, one with two dispell scrolls and the other with the plaque that lets you hold casting or dispell dice. one unit of 24 saurus warriors, One unit of 15 saurus, both with standard and musician, and the larger one with a champion, 3 units of 13 skinks, 5 Chameleon skinks, 2 units of 2 salamanders, and 3 terradons.

The outcome of the battle was that by turn four, His entire army, minus the small unit saurus warriors was lying in the boneyard, with my forces in control of three table quarters, and me poised to triple charge him with chosen knights to the front, minotaurs to the flank, and marauder horse to the rear, and him having destroyed only my furies, mounted daemonettes, 1 spawn, and half of one unit of hounds.

My question here, then is: Does anyone else feel really bad when they beat someone so badly. This is my third 4th turn massacre in recent months, the other two were tournament play, so I felt OK about them, but this was just a friendly game.

Death3965
14-04-2007, 05:50
i understand what ya mean but hes 20's he should take a loss ok also if you see him again just tell him sorry or that that was a tournament army

Nell2ThaIzzay
14-04-2007, 06:09
To answer the question, no, I don't feel bad, because it's a game and sometimes a massacre is how it pans out. You can't control the outcome of a game, it's decided on the field.

Now what I will do, is if I blow out somebody who is obviously inexperienced, as has happened to me (I anihilated a young Dwarf player who was new the game, and no older than about 11 years old, and a very mature gamer for his age), I will offer as much constructive criticism as I can to help them better their skills, as well as point out the areas in which I feel they have a pretty strong grasp on the game.

One thing I won't do though is go easy on someone just to avoid a massacre. I wouldn't appreciate it if someone did that to me, because when I win, I want it to be against my opponent's best efforts, because I was better than they were, not because they were soft, and went easy on me. In fact, maybe I am a bit too extreme on that, because against my regular opponent, a friend who plays Skaven, I always make excuses for why I won. "Oh, you messed up here" or "You did this when you should have done that". I don't win very often, and when I do, I always look for the reason why... I guess I'm just a pessimist. My friend always responds with "well, that's part of the game, you were able to capitolize on my mistake", but yea, I'm always looking for the "reason" why I won, instead of just being able to take the victory for what it is.

But because I don't want my opponent going easy on me, I'm going to give that same respect to my opponent. And if in the end, I blow out my opponent, then I like to have a talk with my opponent and find some things that he did right to help him out for next time.

blahblahblah
14-04-2007, 06:12
I've felt bad about a few slaughters I've had in the past. Usually it's just one of those things that happens, everyones been on the receiving end once or twice, but I'll always try to give them a rematch and if I don't think their able to really adapt to face my army again, I'll usually tune my army down a notch or two (but only if they're kinda young)

Briohmar
14-04-2007, 06:37
i understand what ya mean but hes 20's he should take a loss ok also if you see him again just tell him sorry or that that was a tournament army

Its not that he didn't take the loss like a champ, he really did. Its just that I surgically removed his units with such efficiency that I actually felt somehow overbearing if you will.

As far as I can tell, he is a relatively new player, and I really did go at him full force, so its not like I didn't do what I meant to do, its just that it went without a hitch. My sacrificial units shaped the battlefield exactly like I wanted them to, my hard hitters ran through his units like melted butter, and I never even committed three of my units to the fight (I just left them back to claim table quarters.) In essence everything went too well if you follow, and it didn't feel like an honorable victory to me.

Rael
14-04-2007, 07:03
Briohmar - Just out of curiosity what did your army compose of?

Briohmar
14-04-2007, 07:46
Exalted Champion of Slaanesh on steed with berserker sword, 2 Sorcerors of Slaanesh, Lv2, one with power familiar, one with spell familiar and scroll, 2 units of 5 horsemen both with musician, one with spears, one with flails, 5 chosen knights of Slaanesh, 5 Regular Knights of Slaanesh (both with full command), 2 units of 5 hounds, 6 mounted daemonettes, 6 furies, 3 Minos, and 2 spawns of Slaanesh. Like I said, its a pretty heavy list. In the states I always used Marauders, less knights, no chosen upgrades, but never a lord.

Draeven
14-04-2007, 08:26
against lizardmen never ever ever feel ashamed for smoking him like that. thats a pretty potent lizardmen list. and the 19" is actualy what he can move if he runs etc, not just on the charge, so 9" movement with out running. I'm amazed u killed him like that. but seeing as i have been killed by a lizarman list about like that. Never feel sorry, i so hate lizardmen :)

Bingo the Fun Monkey
14-04-2007, 09:58
I've never felt bad for massacring an opponent. Sometimes the way they behave, especially when it seems like their dice are failing them, brings me to feel bad that they rolled so many crappy dice rolls. But never for beating someone on account of solid tactics and overall strategy.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
14-04-2007, 10:15
I play friendly games against my mate. I've won every single battle except the last one (sorry but I have to make an excuse, I forgot to try and dispel his spells and forgot about my fear :rolleyes: , I feel like such a noob :cries: ) but the point is I feel sorry for him, he might lose interest or stop coming. I wouldn't go easy on him though, after all, he's got to learn the hard way ;)

gortexgunnerson
14-04-2007, 10:36
I often feel bad about a masscre, especially when it linked with either good rolling or poor rolling from them. It doesnt stop me from finishing the game effectively but i do try and play down the win to a few usful comments for my oppenet army list.

The time I hate most is playing a friend in a tournment, I had to face off against my friend last round of a tournment on the top table where a masscre was needed by either of us to win but would mean the other wouldnt place. I threw a list of 6 and 5s for the game and won but it wasnt an enjoyable game for me

Arhalien
14-04-2007, 11:33
I;ve never had a massacre to feel bad about :(. I'm usually on the recieving end as my HE infantry are blown apart by Dwarven lead.

That said, I did actually have 1 at 1000 points with my HE cavalry force taking apart a very bad O+G army in about 3 turns. Mostly from magic before two cavalry units converged on his block of big-uns and slaughtered them. I ahve to say that no, I didn't feel bad; it was quite refreshing to actually have a battle go my way for once. My opponent didn't mind about it either; he seemed to be quite enjoying the battle for some reason. :confused:

Onisuzume
14-04-2007, 11:38
His army was a fairly decent balanced build, which added to my feeling bad, as I was definitely high end, consisted of an old blood with a magic weapon of some sort, and an item that allowed him an 18" charge.
Sounds like a JSoD to me, but what the **** is he doing with a magic weapon? A greatweapon is good enough on those and saves tons of points.

A Saurus Hero with an always strikes first magiuc weapon and light armor
Not bad I guess...

and two skink priests, one with two dispell scrolls and the other with the plaque that lets you hold casting or dispell dice.
That's an arcane item, not an plaque. And only slann can take plaques.(which are immune to law of gold)

My question here, then is: Does anyone else feel really bad when they beat someone so badly. This is my third 4th turn massacre in recent months, the other two were tournament play, so I felt OK about them, but this was just a friendly game.
Only if I tooled-up against a certain army.
It kinda beats the purpose of fighting a battle.

kyussinchains
14-04-2007, 11:58
if he wasnt upset, then there is nothing to feel bad about!

I've had plenty of games where I've lost, but it's been fairly close and a damn fine and enjoyable game!

then there have been times when I've been magehammered into the ground which werent so much fun.

I've also had some games when everything has gone like clockwork for me and my opponent has been annihilated, it's fine and even fun when your army isnt tooled up as much as it can be.

However I've had a few wins using experimental and stupidly overpowered armies like the tzeentch seer council build, which were just depressing for everyone concerned! I think if you've had to fight for your victory and your opponent enjoyed the game, even as a learning experience, then it's a good thing.

Lady's Champion
14-04-2007, 12:06
I only ever play against this one guy and he is THE MOST COMPETETIVE PLAYER IN THE WORLD!

Whenever he wins, he calculates all the victory points and rubs in exactly how much he won by- but, whenever it is obvious I have won, he refuses to count victory points and leaves!

So no, I don't feel bad when I massacre him heehee

snurl
14-04-2007, 12:07
If you still feel bad about it, why not try giving yourself a handicap next time you play that opponent? Like maybe you have only half as many points?
If you still win, then you need a higher calibre opponent.

Hywel
14-04-2007, 12:55
It is the nature of the slaanesh list, as you know I play a similar way.

When our units combine and things start to go well it is a snowball effect as more space becomes available on the table and unit outnumbering swings further and further in our favour.
I have also had games like this and you do feel bad as it feels like the other guy is just there as a foil for your perfectly functioning machine.

This can happen to an experienced player as much as it can to a new player. Feeling bad about it shows you to be a good player and one who recognises the importance of btoh players having a good time and the thrill of a close battle. If this came across in the game, despite the result, then you've nothing to feel bad about.

DeathlessDraich
14-04-2007, 13:07
I know what you mean Briohmar.

I never massacre any opponents and will adjust my strategy in turns 5 and 6 to prevent one. Of course this is done subtly and without any knowledge of my opponents.

Sometimes this backfires on me and I end up losing :p but winning or losing is unimportant to me. I enjoy a well fought game always and if I create a disadvantage for myself so that I have to stretch my abilities to come back, it would have been satisfying and more enjoyable than any obvious victory.

I have even deliberately lost in a tournament once to a 14 yr old beginner who was in bottom place at the penultimate round. It was the right thing to do since I encouraged him to enter the tournament.

This is a game and very inconsequential and unimportant.

Franco
14-04-2007, 13:09
Ive been told that a massacre is hard to deal with and to get two in a row can make you feel really bad about battling. I've never been beaten by a massacre, but i have been beaten badly. I was beaten by DE 4 times in a row very badly, then one against Dwarfs. I felt like such a d*ck. Its easy to say to look possitive at every battle but when you have been beaten heavily 5times in a row, you can't find any possitives. But as soon as you beat someone, you can't stop winning. Well not yet anyway, but its only been 3 games!!!

arc
14-04-2007, 15:44
I was playing against this chaos with my balance* lizardmen army. I killed his entire army in 4 turns and I only lost 2 skinks handlers due to misfire. I don't know what to say to him afterwards. I think he will never play me again.

Briohmar
14-04-2007, 16:50
It is the nature of the slaanesh list, as you know I play a similar way.

When our units combine and things start to go well it is a snowball effect as more space becomes available on the table and unit outnumbering swings further and further in our favour.
I have also had games like this and you do feel bad as it feels like the other guy is just there as a foil for your perfectly functioning machine.

This can happen to an experienced player as much as it can to a new player. Feeling bad about it shows you to be a good player and one who recognises the importance of btoh players having a good time and the thrill of a close battle. If this came across in the game, despite the result, then you've nothing to feel bad about.

Thanks Hywel, by the way, I've bookmarked the page where you have your army photos, most impressive. This is a couple of (not so good) pictures of my newest army additions. It took about a week to paint them all in preparation for the last tournament.

Heretic Burner
14-04-2007, 18:35
Sure you probably should feel bad if you repeatedly beat your opponents with such a massive margin. It clearly shows that the army you are taking is vastly stronger. Using an equal points of my Empire list against O&G will result in the same problem. It just isn't a game anymore.

So what should you do? Well, obviously you know how to craft a list with winning in mind. How about trying to craft a list with fun in mind? Stop taking the most powerful units in your army and give others a choice. Sure if you are that O&G player you might need to use every last trick to your advantage but obviously that isn't your problem.

Now you might get it into your idea that it was your amazing skill that won you these games. It isn't. You and your opponent don't have the tools to play the same way, you simply had an army list with an advantage your opponent didn't have. So if you repeatedly massacre your opponent draining the fun from the game...well you really have nobody else to blame but yourself.

Me, I've long since decided to give an O&G opponent a 10% points bonus. It seems to help but I'll only know if it is enough with more games. Sure there are other weaker armies I would consider the same advantage. Why not do the same? If GW can't do a good job of balancing games that shouldn't stop the players from trying.

zak
14-04-2007, 21:00
I don't usually feel to bad if the massacre was caused by his bad play or my good play. However, I have had games where I made bad mistakes and then rolled like a dice god. Not matter what I did I beat his units even when I shouldn't have had a chance. It happens very, very occasionally but when it does you have to feel sorry for the other player who just has to take it.

Chaos and Evil
14-04-2007, 21:23
His lizardmen army list was pretty soft really (It included Saurus Infantry! Lots of them! Plus the Saurus Hero character has a pretty poor magic item selection).

It's no surprise he got smoked.

pcgamer72
14-04-2007, 21:24
Well, the environment I play in is pretty competitive. I play nearly every weekend and all the games are with good friends. So, I don't really feel any different when I play them in a tournament, because it's basically the same.

When I play against new players or vastly inferior generals, I will turn it down though. I don't play the game to make people want to quit playing (which I have seen happen at least twice.)

Stouty
14-04-2007, 21:28
I've only felt bad about a handful of my massacres, and only because they were of luck. Usually we talk about how competitive the game is going to be before it starts, so if someone asks for a game for tournament practice anyone who accepts will be expecting a tournament style game.

I guess the massacre I felt worst about was against this kid who had just started the game. He was only a 2 or 3 years younger than me but I'm pretty young even now and he was fairly...fragile, not in a whiney spoilt brat way in a genuine crocodile tear way.

1st turn his Vampire lord miscast on a 7+ invocation and exploded. Was unlucky with his crumble rolls and my army probably wasn't necessary for me to have won.

That was some years ago now though.

Angry Lawyer
14-04-2007, 21:46
When I play as Lizardmen, I always take Saurus. People say they're terrible, but they're manly. Look at those stat-lines. Fielding them gives you chest-hair.

Then again, I also play an infantry-heavy HE army, but I love ranked units, and there's something about mail that makes me feel awesome. Butchered every time, though.

-Angry Lawyer

Briohmar
15-04-2007, 03:57
Now see, I'm getting mixed signals on this thing, some people think he had a pretty good list, some think he has a soft list. It is generally understood in the gaming group that when prepping for tourney, the gaming will be ratchetted up, which is what's going on now.

To Heretic Burner, I didn't say I am repeatedly winning by such a margin, I said I've had 3 such victories in recent months, as in three months. One a month is not repeatedly. Also I stated that two of those three were in tournament environment, which means you are there to play competitively. I also stated, I think clearly, that the group IS doing their play-testing and tweaking for the upcoming tournament, so the level of play is much higher, though not the competitiveness. As Hywel said, sometimes things just work so well that your opponent is just the focal point for your success, and at his expense, which you feel bad about. This was a very good choice of phrases to explain my regrets about the win. My army could do no wrong during the game, and his army had no way to resist.

Mad Makz
15-04-2007, 04:11
The real question is this: Did your opponent learn anything from the game?

If he learned something, then you should feel good about the game - especially if you managed to discuss the game afterwards and share some insight into why he got so soundly thrashed, because it means in all likelihood he will do better next time.

If your opponent didn't learn anything, and you didn't learn anything, then often a game will feel pointless - when you have nothing you could have done better and your opponent had nothing they could have done better than the game is predetermined and just an exercise in rolling dice.

To me it seems like a hollow victory to you, but a valuable lesson to your opponent. Unlike real war your opponent will live to fight another day, so you shouldn't feel bad, you should feel like you helped prepare him for a more competitive style of play.

Scott
15-04-2007, 04:17
It's weird you are talking about massacres, I've been playing since christmas, and been having a decent go of it, mainly a bunch of draws and minor losses blown out a few times. I mainly used my OK and Skaven, against my buddy's o&g but then there's been a chaos player showing up lately who's smoked me in the 2 games we played (1 vs skaven and 1 vs ok) but my buddy who plays orcs beat him up pretty good. I just threw together a 1500 point chaos force. Today was the first day out, and I played 2 games vs my buddy that plays orcs. The first game he had 16 archers left after 3 turns, and we just called it. If we would have played 1-2 more turns I wouldn't have given him a single victory point would have had all the table quarters and sticks etc.) I felt bad about winning that bad, since I used a refused flank and set him up in bottlenecks vs my four units. So we decided to play a second game and I was curious how my force would do in the open, so for terrain we just gave him 2 hills to plop archers on. He made a mistake and cast the spell so his army can move 2d6 inches towards mine, I was using banner of the gods so I told him to move his units. Next thing you know I got the charge on him and within 3 turns he only had 2 chariots left which were charged on turn four by 25 warriors (half chosen) and 3 characters.

I usually lose when I play against him, but today I felt really bad because we played two games in under 7 turns. I mean he's beaten me bad some times (I have horrendous dice rolling) but i just felt so bad for beating him like that.

I do understand where you are coming from I mean the best you can do is play and help them out point out things that happened well (the second game was because he really shouldn't have cast that spell with the set up).

Maybe just mention to him next time you see him that you were running an army set up for a tourney and trying to fix pre tourney kinks I guess?

Lander
15-04-2007, 04:28
You were playing imo the most potent tourney army in the game a Slaanesh amry list. You can DESTROY armys very fast with slaanesh, mainly when they have poor luck with psycology rolls.... So yeah your army would be a hard nut to crack. Dont feel bad for a massacre they happen usually by luck. Also it seems evertime I am teaching someone to play they massacre me I tell them before the game Im not taking it easy on them, yet the fates deem me to always lose usually due to poor Ld checks AND IM DWARFS!:cries:

Ifurita
15-04-2007, 05:25
Well, kudos for feeling bad. There are enough players out there who wouldn't care. I think the comment someone else mentioned about offering constructive feedback is the best tact. You might also compliment him on his army list and ask him how he developed it - would help you figure out if a) he is new and someone told him what to get, b) is more experienced and this is his tourney army, or c) some other mix, which should help you figure out if it's worth feeling bad about. Let us know how it turns out.

Briohmar
15-04-2007, 06:36
I certainly made an effort, there is, however, a significant language barrier involved. I speak English and German, and understand some French. He understands only a little english, and speaks primarily French. In game terms, we are able to play, as I have learned a few tricks in international gaming, but on a personal level, communications are more dificult.

him_15
15-04-2007, 06:47
For me a noob newbie, I don't mind being masscared. That means i am not good enough and I still have far more to learn.
I remember a few weeks ago I played against a Beastmen with my Lizardmen. By the end of the game all my army was destroyed and He still had at least 1/3 of models left on the table. We then discussed about the battle, what I did wrong and how can i improve it.
And two weeks ago I went for another battle against someone else. I kept in mind on those experiences i have had before and tried not to repeat those mistakes. And it was a slight victory for me this time.

Marcel
15-04-2007, 08:41
in a game such as this, even in a comfortable, lax setting, nobody wants to be a loser. If you are humble and supportive to your other gamers, there is no reason to feel bad about winning. It's a harsh reality for some, but some gamers are worse than others, but with practice they can get better.
if you feel that your list was too "broken" then change it. only tournament players make lists like that, and they get zeroes in all of their composition scores. always.
have fun, beating yourself up over these things detracts from that.
-m

Bloodknight
15-04-2007, 12:08
There is no reason to feel bad about a massacre as long as you make your opponent learn something from it in a friendly way.

Hywel
15-04-2007, 19:03
Thanks Hywel, by the way, I've bookmarked the page where you have your army photos, most impressive. This is a couple of (not so good) pictures of my newest army additions. It took about a week to paint them all in preparation for the last tournament.

I'm flattered by your interest, really I am. Makes all those hours and the money seem worthwhile! :p

Love the idea with the mutie steed heads and the amazon horseladies! That's what really drew me to slaanesh in the first place - the need to avoid the current chaos range to achieve the feel you want.

Maybe you could offer to play this guy again where you use the exact same list and encourage him to build up specifically to counter it. It would be a good exercise for him in learning what counters such an army and it would be a good test for you coming up against an adversary that won't be taken by surprise.

Crazy Harborc
15-04-2007, 19:45
I try to pay attention to what kind of day an opponent mentions he has had. What kind of mood they are in and why. If I sense an opponent really "needs" to laugh, win, whatever....why not. I don't throw the game. I'm more likely to just "do the long shots, try to beat the odds". The fun of the game is what I thrive upon.;)

Wintersdark
15-04-2007, 22:18
I feel bad when my opponent gave it all he could, did everything right, but has rediculously bad rolls that cause him to fail at pretty much everything he does. This doesn't happen often in reality, but it does happen, and to everyone. I know how frusterating it is when it happens to me =)

I had one game where I totally obliterated a Khorne-ish Chaos army (not entirely Khorne, but mostly) with my Greenskins. He lost every single combat, no matter how stacked it was in his favour. In one instance, his Chosen Warriors of Khorne charged a spear-armed night goblin regiment. Now, I outnumbered him, and had a rank up on him, but at the end of the combat he'd killed a single goblin and my goblins killed 4 warriors. Broke them, and ran them down. It was absurd, and the whole game went that way. Now, to be fair, we both got a good laugh out of the game, his luck was so grossly bad that it was funny.

The point stands, though, that I feel really bad when I butcher someone just because they couldn't roll worth crap. Particularly when it's a newer player, who hasn't gotten enough games under his belt to see it happen both ways.

Baindread
15-04-2007, 23:47
Now see, I'm getting mixed signals on this thing, some people think he had a pretty good list, some think he has a soft list.


Some people tend to see the name of the army and right then and there decide if the army was good or not, no matter what it actually included ;). It could also be the same way around of course.

kaimarion
16-04-2007, 00:13
If you beat some one in a three way they may feel that they were ganged up on,and have to be cheered up if they feel that way
pesonaly i steer clear of 3 way battles.

Bloodknight
16-04-2007, 00:16
@briohmar: I´d say this was a soft list. Most of the time Lizardmen lists shun saurus because they´re not good for their points.

ashc
16-04-2007, 00:22
in my opinion it all depends on the opponent in question's attitude to the game; all is fair in love and war as long as neither of you are gits ;)

Ash

Briohmar
16-04-2007, 02:23
@briohmar: I´d say this was a soft list. Most of the time Lizardmen lists shun saurus because they´re not good for their points.

OK, I am unsure, as I said, I hadn't fought a lizard since 5th edition. Just not a lot of people play them. I was rather shocked that there were no dinosaurs, but that Old blood is a wicked good character.

Finnigan2004
17-04-2007, 00:11
I got massacred over the weekend in a game against wood elves, and the word massacre hardly covers it-- my army got shot to ribbons before they even crossed the board. All of that said, I had a great game because my opponent was a friendly guy that was fun to talk to. He had good advice and was a "good winner". I think that most of the time, whatever the result, people will be happy if you are basically a nice person.

enyoss
17-04-2007, 11:34
I never massacre any opponents and will adjust my strategy in turns 5 and 6 to prevent one. Of course this is done subtly and without any knowledge of my opponents.


I kind of agree with this. If it looks like I've won convincingly, rather than completely annihilate my opponent, I'll try something that I wouldn't normally do if the game was closer. I find this allows me to really test the tolerances on my units when it doesn't matter too much if they get wasted. Of course as you said, sometimes it goes horribly wrong and I end up throwing away the win... such is the learning curve of war I suppose :).

Cheers,

enyoss

p.s. @kyussinchains: Magehammer? Magehammer!? Two level 2 mages in 2000pts isn't Magehammer. Magehammer would be more akin to a Grey Seer and a Warlock Engineer with a bound spell at 2000pts... oh, wait ;).

Nkari
17-04-2007, 12:55
I would not worry much about massacres, your army list is not cheesy in any way imho, you just used your army to better effect than the oponent.. simple as that..

I personally would love to play that list with my VC, would be one interesting game I think.. =)

Briohmar
17-04-2007, 18:43
I would not worry much about massacres, your army list is not cheesy in any way imho, you just used your army to better effect than the oponent.. simple as that..

I personally would love to play that list with my VC, would be one interesting game I think.. =)

I've had some very good games against the VC recently. One ended in a draw with me ahead by 52 points, the other a minor victory for my opponent. The guy played really well, and stopped every charge I had against his general by throwing more zombies in my way. 5 Dispell dice is hardly enough against a VC list, or a TK list for that matter.

kyussinchains
17-04-2007, 22:09
p.s. @kyussinchains: Magehammer? Magehammer!? Two level 2 mages in 2000pts isn't Magehammer. Magehammer would be more akin to a Grey Seer and a Warlock Engineer with a bound spell at 2000pts... oh, wait ;).

wow, you certainly are paranoid arent you? perhaps I was referring to Dave's 3000 point vampire army with 5 necrarchs? or some of the big games when you've had a few level 4 mages with the book of hoeth?

or the last tournament when my level 1 sorceress with the seal and a single dispel scroll could hardly face up to your level 4 and level 2 mages, which is worse than the skaven characters seeing as those mages dont wound themselves simply in the act of casting! ;)