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ekxw
16-04-2007, 02:55
uhmm i dont know if this goes here, if not tell me were i have to post new about alternative trademarks.

ok here are the new mounted ingeniers from gamezone, they are unpainted cause they are sneak peaks,



*edit by Sylass*
I attached the images cause the img-code broke the forum layout due to the size of the photos.



they will be at salute london 2007, if you want to see great part of their miniature range painted and buy something, thats a good oportunity they also will release there 3 exclusive miniatures, i need pics of those.

Also will be the day of the release of the new board boys and charriot and they are one of the best if not the best minitures they have done and that is something.

sorry for my english XD

Death3965
16-04-2007, 02:59
they look like outriders

dodicula
16-04-2007, 03:17
Holy Cow! The look nothing like outriders, these miniatures look good

Rodman49
16-04-2007, 05:55
Holy Cow! The look nothing like outriders, these miniatures look good

Actually they look a ton like outriders . . . maybe the horses look a little better also.

loveless
16-04-2007, 06:39
I...prefer the GW Outriders...but I LOVE the horses...

lilljonas
16-04-2007, 08:54
Jumping on the "excellent horses!" bandwagon! Is there a website for the rest of the range? (in English, that is. I can google up a German version, but my German is not that good)

gorenut
16-04-2007, 09:44
Wow, I love these models. As much as I like the GW Outriders, I like these better. I think these models have done the poofiness of sleeves correctly. Also really digging the shoulder plates.

Bregalad
16-04-2007, 10:38
A friend told me that Gamezone miniatures are sometimes awkward to put together. So people might need at least average modelling skills. Can't tell from personal experience.

FlameKnight
16-04-2007, 10:52
holy sheet, these are incredible!

I'm not a fan of the new outriders, and the old ones are a tad too old... These are perfect!

I hope there's a way to get these in Australia... Gamezone is spanish?

EmperorNorton
16-04-2007, 10:53
A friend told me that Gamezone miniatures are sometimes awkward to put together. So people might need at least average modelling skills. Can't tell from personal experience.

From my experience they aren't more awkward to put together than GW models can be. You probably need to fill in some small gaps with green stuff, but nothing major.

I like those new models.
They might get me to start an Empire army if they keep expanding that range.

(I'm not as big a fan of Gamezone as I used to be, though, because I had to discover that one of the hammerers I bought from them came with the wrong weapon, which means I'll have to convert him.)

ekxw
16-04-2007, 12:27
yep they are a spanish company, uhmm the prblem with the asemble its now relove the new models are easily asembled, i have some new chaos knights and they fit perfectly, the old models have some problems but new ones no problems at all see those minitures they arent painted just baremetals models, they have no greenstuff on them

Sandlemad
16-04-2007, 14:13
This stuff is cheeky.:)
I second the wonderful horses but I don't much like the flexiible shoulderpads. They look a bit rushed.
However, the faces are excellent and the central guy, in the floppy hat, is very good indeed. I think he might be worth getting.

NakedFisherman
16-04-2007, 15:21
The horses have weird manes. The casting also seems to be a bit rough.

I like the riders, though.

kaimarion
16-04-2007, 15:37
Has anyone got a link to the website.

NakedFisherman
16-04-2007, 15:44
http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/

ZeroTwentythree
16-04-2007, 15:52
Wow, I think both the horses and the riders are amazing!

Too bad I don't plan on using any engineers.

I poked around their web site a bit and I've got a mixed reaction to some of the other figures. I think these are some of the better ones, but I'm thinking about getting a few figures to check out in person. I could only find one US supplier so far, though. Anyone have any recommendations?

kaimarion
16-04-2007, 15:56
ok the website is only showing me tiny pictures and doesnt have an english optian.

ZeroTwentythree
16-04-2007, 15:56
The horses have weird manes. The casting also seems to be a bit rough.



The manes look braided. Probably a good idea for riders using crazy blackpowder weapons.

I'm guessing some of the roughness might be whatever was used to prime them -- they don't look like bare metal. There are some rough sculpted spots, though, like the neck of the horse in the first pic, near the harness. So they might take a little bit of modeling prep work.

druchii
16-04-2007, 16:00
While there is something (ok alot) to be said about the quality of these miniatures, doesn't it bug anyone else that these were just blatantly ripped off from GW's sculpts?

I mean I don't think dudes running around in plate mail with machineguns and floppy hats/poofy sleeves is exactly...common, right?

I really DO like these models (even better than GWs) but I don't like them in the fact that they've already been done! Origionality counts alot in my book. Maybe they're just "buy these instead!" models, and I can totally dig that, but is gamezome usually that sort of company?

d

EmperorNorton
16-04-2007, 16:04
I really DO like these models (even better than GWs) but I don't like them in the fact that they've already been done! Origionality counts alot in my book. Maybe they're just "buy these instead!" models, and I can totally dig that, but is gamezome usually that sort of company?

d

Yes, absolutely.
I can't think of a single of their models that isn't obviously meant to be a replacement for something GW has done.
They may not be original, but it doesn't bug me in the least.

Pokpoko
16-04-2007, 16:36
they obviously are a company that sculpts GW alternatives and that alone.
but with models THAT cool,and not really much more expensive(we'r talking all metal here)then their GW counterparts, who can really blame them?
i have their Predator Knight(Cold One Dark elf in other words),and the mount totally blows the GW cold ones,any GW cold ones out of the water. the scales are realistic, the sense of movement shown perfectly. it really does look like a half-a-ton carnivore charging to bite your head off, not like a pregnant cow barely able to trot.
their goblins(especially wolves) are also suberb, and all of their horses/riding beats are far superior to the GW ones.

Tastyfish
16-04-2007, 17:35
I'm guessing some of the roughness might be whatever was used to prime them -- they don't look like bare metal. There are some rough sculpted spots, though, like the neck of the horse in the first pic, near the harness. So they might take a little bit of modeling prep work.

Wouldn't suprise me if wasn't though, stuff like that is going to be more based on how good the casting equipment you can afford is. There is a german site as well that has a lot better pictures of the gamezone models (much larger ones at least, think they still have the really annoying 'watermark' type image in the background).

Pokpoko - you have a picture of a GW and a GZ cold one together? I really quite like the beasts but think the riders aren't so good, how well do they fit on a cavalry base and would you think it is possible to swap the riders?

Pokpoko
16-04-2007, 17:50
pics-i only have a leftover 5ed cold one,and if you don't mind cellphone quality pics i can post some later. the riders are standard GW size, and they are,iirc, fully interchangeable(certainly plastic empire knight has no problem staying in place on the GZ one). bases-all minis are supplied with clear plastic base almost exactly the same size the orginal GW ones, so no problem there. ranking the unit up might be a problem due to long tails, but you'r not going to field cavalry in 2+ ranks,are you?:D

ekxw
16-04-2007, 18:27
uhmm lets we try this, i have only one like my hero on demon steed, and a charriot like my chaos charriot.

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/1613/48174062ax9.jpg


uhmm they are realy big compared with gw ones http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/7493/86715092yx7.jpghttp://
http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/4852/31637286ju2.jpg
http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2955/85237122ud4.jpg

Vogon
16-04-2007, 18:51
Thanks for that, I've been looking for a side by side photo of a Cold One and a GZ predator before i decided whether to get any.

Now I've seen them I WILL.

Cheers

Vogon

NakedFisherman
16-04-2007, 19:02
Braids?

Just shave the damn things off.

ZeroTwentythree
16-04-2007, 20:07
Braids?

Just shave the damn things off.


But then the elf horses will laugh at them and make cruel jokes.

Besides, you're talking about a bunch of guys who go to war with ostrich feathers in their hats, and big poofy clothes. Horse braids?

Bregalad
16-04-2007, 21:28
Here is an alternative for ordering those minis: The German online shop "Battlefield Berlin".
Gamezone miniatures (German):
http://www.battlefield-berlin.de/shop/index.php?cat=WG426
International ordering info (English): http://www.battlefield-berlin.de/shop/PublishedFiles/shipping.htm

Saulot
25-04-2007, 02:40
ugh. Sorry, not for me.
There's just something off-putting about GZ.

I'm with druchii on this one:

While there is something (ok alot) to be said about the quality of these miniatures, doesn't it bug anyone else that these were just blatantly ripped off from GW's sculpts?
d

Bretagne
25-04-2007, 04:25
Holy Cow! The look nothing like outriders, these miniatures look good

seconded. these are truly phenominal miniatures.

Bretagne
25-04-2007, 04:26
ugh. Sorry, not for me.
There's just something off-putting about GZ.

I'm with druchii on this one:

yeah but they're way better. theyre obviously trying to market to players that want a specific look and feel, but have better looking miniatures. these woud fit in perfectly with any empire army, and i think that is awesome.

Batwings
25-04-2007, 04:39
Hadn't seen any of Gamezone's stuff before.
Whilst I admit much of their range is hugely derivative, there's some beautiful stuff there too. Check out their magnificent Orcs and Goblins.
Those Trolls put GW's rather lackluster new efforts to shame... especially the one swinging the half-eaten horse!

MF3000
25-04-2007, 04:57
I honestly don't care about the closeness between GZ and GW models too much; it's a bit obvious that GZ models are catered for 'fantasy' use meaning GW stuff.

I'ld buy some of their stuff... the dwarfs, the 'bretonnians' ... they all have really cool models that i wouldn't mind having to paint up individually.

sj

Bretagne
25-04-2007, 05:49
Yes, absolutely.
I can't think of a single of their models that isn't obviously meant to be a replacement for something GW has done.
They may not be original, but it doesn't bug me in the least.

im always on the lookout for alternatives for GW swill.

Bretagne
25-04-2007, 05:55
here's another rad miniature from gamezone, this one is a Bretonnian casualty!
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m139/dominic_carrillo/11-45.jpg

Vattendroppe
25-04-2007, 06:34
THey were some really nice miniatures! They look much like outriders though, but the horses were really nice! As well as I thought the riders to be pretty much nice also.

Cragspyder
25-04-2007, 06:51
For modellers, why not pick the cooler models?

However, more then half the appeal for me is playing the game that goes along with the miniatures. If it hadn't been for that I wouldn't have taken up the hobby in the first place.

And of course, if you use those miniatures you won't be able to play in a tournament or at a GW with them.

Bretagne
25-04-2007, 08:07
i think the reason GW bans non-GW stuff from their tournaments and stores is because theyre afraid people will realize how lame their stuff is compared to other companies.

dodicula
25-04-2007, 08:21
ugh. Sorry, not for me.
There's just something off-putting about GZ.

I'm with druchii on this one:


GW did not invent fantasy,
it did not invent:
Orcs
Renaissance Humans
Mounted knights
Pegasuses
Dark Elves
Giant Lizards used as mounts
and a million other things.

It is absurd, ironic (see laserburn) and libleous that things made in the same genres as GW's generic fantasy armies should be called rip-offs. It is also an insult to the gamezone sculpters who, quite frankly, ate GW's sculptors lunch, It is not illegal or immoral to sculpt to a GENERIC FANTASY THEME!
Jesus christ, we live in a capitalist society, since when is competition a bad thing!

Perhaps GW and its Fan Boys should actually create something original before they cry foul about having it copied

Bretagne
25-04-2007, 08:36
Perhaps GW and its Fan Boys should actually create something original before they cry foul about having it copied

BURN!!!!

no problem about the sig, dodicula. oh and we should get seth on this thread, i think he would have some interesting points.

lilljonas
25-04-2007, 09:34
Well, in one way it is true that GW did not create the basic ideas of fantasy dwarfs, knights, dark elves etc. However, it is blatant that GZ copies them, since they just happen to recreate the same ideas in the same way, and just conveniently use the same kind of fantasy ideas so that you can pretty much recreate exactly the same units as GW. If you can't see the plagiarism, you are either blind or delusional. This is not about GW-fandom, it's about knowing a Night Goblin Fanatic when you see him. Yes, GW didn't invent the idea of goblins living in caves. However, they pretty much invented the idea of robed goblins living in caves, swinging heavy spiked balls attached to chains. How can you not see that? "Generic Fantasy theme"? That just happens to include exact copies of Dark elves with big lizard pulled chariots, trollslayers with mohawks, night goblin fanatics and mounted female magicians in the medieval knights range? That's pretty non-generic in my book.

Also, you asked what's wrong with outright copying. In this case, the problem is that GW spends lots of money on concept artists and concept sculpts to find the theme and the look of their models. GZ doesn't need that, since GW's models are their concept art.

However, it's also pretty obvious that a lot of the time, GZ puts out models that either rivals or beat the sculpts of GW. This is the strangest things to me, since you'd think that GW would be able to afford better sculptors. Also this is probably a bit unfair too: it almost seems like the progress is that GW plows down money into R&D, spends lots of time to think out the designs and themes, and make their models. After release, players complain about detail A and perspective B being lame. And so GZ remakes the same model, and makes it cooler. In the end, it's difficult for me to say what I feel about GZ: they are blatant rip-offs, but unlike rip-offs among clothes companies, electronic companies etc, their rip-off is sometimes superior. And in a way I have to respect that. But then, not everything GZ touches turns to gold either. I see quite a lot of rubbish on their site too.

EDIT: the high elves looks different though. Instead of ripped from GW, they looked ripped from Chronopia.

ZeroTwentythree
25-04-2007, 14:56
I think competition is a good thing, as long as GZ and other companies do not directly infringe on GW's IP. Some of it may push the boundaries a bit, but I don't think they've stepped over the line.

As others have stated, most of GW's concepts are not original in the first place, and not even "generic." Yes, the idea of "elves," "goblins," etc is generic, but the execution of much of it is identifiable as directly, uh "inspired" interpretation of those generic ideas by Tolkein, Moorcock, etc. the same way that the necrons and genestealers are generically "robots" and "aliens" but can be pretty clearly linked with certain movies & art.

lilljonas
25-04-2007, 15:03
Have people even checked their previews of the night gobbo fanatics? I'm interested in what the "never overstepped the boundaries between generic fantasy and GW IP"-crowd thinks about them. That's a pretty blatant copy IMHO. A better looking copy, but still damn much a direct rip-off. How do you rationalize to yourself that "oh, that's just a generic fantasy goblin"?

http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/contents/media/gamezone_Ene_07.jpg

Quin 242
25-04-2007, 15:13
Very nice figs those.
Excellent scupts and magnificent horses.

Einholt
25-04-2007, 15:43
Yea honestly the quality of the figures is fantastic, but you cannot tell me these are not BLATANT rip off's I mean generic fantasy races is one thing but ca mon. I have no delusion that GW ripped things off but at least they had the decency to write up new origins lore and style for their versions of things. GZ just makes the mini. Frankly I don't think its a problem I mean GW could help themselves with a little bit of a price reduction, for things like buying multiple boxes at once kinda like they offer battalions just discounts if people buy like 50 state troops but thats a diff topic.

But ultimately I want to be able to play at home with friends AND at the store and I really am not bothered by GW's policy I think to say oh they do this so we can't tell how lame their stuff is would be just ignorant Its a sound business policy and their stuff is not lame to begin with. As lilljonas said GW puts a lot of resources into forming their world and these guys just kinda improve upon it. I'm not a fanboy for GW and I will certainly vote on the quality of their stuff with my wallet but I am a fan of the world and the game and if they put out a mini that I like then I won't be going out to find alternatives that are just a lil better. If everyone turned their back the company would fail and we would lose a lot more then people realize in their absence.

I don't knock em for their work just the fact it is very dishonest.

lilljonas
25-04-2007, 16:02
Yes, but on the other hand it's not really a competition for your wallet either, since the GZ stuff is mostly more expensive than the GW stuff. I'm not sure though, I haven't done a proper comparison, but in some ways it's more like GW's IG vs FW's DKoK: more expensive, but better looking.

Except for FW being a GW company with GW support, and GZ being a spanish rip-off company, that is.

dodicula
25-04-2007, 17:11
Nope, not a blatant rip-off while they are both chain wielding goblins with robes, the goblins for Gamezone are not the same in any way as GW, they look similiar in the sense that it is the same Genre, but clearly the designs are their own (see anvil and pumpkin). In addition the figure does not break trademark, copyright or patent law, does it?
btw has anybody looked at laserburn yet? If gw can get away with ripping that off, I see no reason why Gamezone can't get away with sculpting a similiar generic fantasy figure (p.s. they clearly can)

druchii
25-04-2007, 17:39
GW did not invent fantasy,
it did not invent:
Orcs
Renaissance Humans
Mounted knights
Pegasuses
Dark Elves
Giant Lizards used as mounts
and a million other things.

It is absurd, ironic (see laserburn) and libleous that things made in the same genres as GW's generic fantasy armies should be called rip-offs. It is also an insult to the gamezone sculpters who, quite frankly, ate GW's sculptors lunch, It is not illegal or immoral to sculpt to a GENERIC FANTASY THEME!
Jesus christ, we live in a capitalist society, since when is competition a bad thing!

Perhaps GW and its Fan Boys should actually create something original before they cry foul about having it copied

You're right, as stated before, that GW did not invent goblins, orcs, or the slew of other things that you've mentoned. But you've failed to address my statement about the fact that GW DID indeed associate dudes with puffy shirts, foppy hats, crazy moustaches, full plate armor, riding around on horses with gatling guns.

Again, GW did NOT create humans with guns, but they created an image of humans with guns that is very specific to warhammer fantasy.


Nope, not a blatant rip-off while they are both chain wielding goblins with robes, the goblins for Gamezone are not the same in any way as GW, they look similiar in the sense that it is the same Genre, but clearly the designs are their own (see anvil and pumpkin). In addition the figure does not break trademark, copyright or patent law, does it?
btw has anybody looked at laserburn yet? If gw can get away with ripping that off, I see no reason why Gamezone can't get away with sculpting a similiar generic fantasy figure (p.s. they clearly can)

So wait, just because the pieces of the idea are different, that makes the idea different? I'm sorry but that's not at all convincing. That's like saying that Google and Yahoo searches are different because they search for things on the internet with a different interfact and search for items differently. THEY'RE BOTH SEARCH ENGINES. Plain and simple, those fanatics, while looking better than GWs(to some extent) ARE goblin fanatics as CONCEPTUALIZED by GW. Come on dude, even the poses are direct "steals" from GWs initial sculpts!

No matter how you try to skew it, GZ obviously steals GWs Intellectual concepts(and hell, sometimes improves on them!).

d

P.S. Just because something isn't against the law doesn't mean it isn't wrong, also just because some law does not cover a specific event or function does not automatically make that event or function right!

Batwings
25-04-2007, 18:36
I'm in complete agreement with Druchii here.
The Night Goblin Fanatics (as an example) are unequivocally derived from the concept created by GW. Arguing that insignificant details make them unique and original is nonsense. When Gamezone themselves describe the miniatures as a "useful option to add diversity" do you imagine they're refering to anything other than your Warhammer Orc & Goblins armies?

Having said all that, I think I'll be picking up a handful of their sculpts since they're so pretty!

Vattendroppe
25-04-2007, 18:49
Yes, but on the other hand it's not really a competition for your wallet either, since the GZ stuff is mostly more expensive than the GW stuff. I'm not sure though, I haven't done a proper comparison, but in some ways it's more like GW's IG vs FW's DKoK: more expensive, but better looking.

Except for FW being a GW company with GW support, and GZ being a spanish rip-off company, that is.

I'm totally backing you up in this one. One could just see GZ as a fantasy FW, exception that FW is owned by GW.

Pokpoko
25-04-2007, 19:06
How do you rationalize to yourself that "oh, that's just a generic fantasy goblin"?

i rationalize it with |it costs the same,more or less, it looks waay better.why bother with the inferior product?|

Bretagne
25-04-2007, 19:34
i rationalize it with |it costs the same,more or less, it looks waay better.why bother with the inferior product?|

exactly. i have shopped around different miniatures companies (rakham, reaper and now Gamezone) and it seems now that Gamezone are the only ones that make miniatures that can blend seemlessly with my existing GW collection. if you look at the picture posted above, theyre making alternatives to models that are, quite frankly, hurting pretty bad in recent years. i would love to buy GW if the models were up to snuff, but they arent. these models, along with others from across the globe, blow GW stuff out of the water.

the way i see it, if you want to play GW games with citadel miniatures, then go ahead. if you hate on people who want to use better stuff, then you better hate on the guy who made his own titan because he didnt want to shell over ten grand or however much it costs to get one from forgeworld.

have fun with your crappy models, suckas!

Bretagne
25-04-2007, 19:38
i think there is an old song that goes: "any thing you can do, i can do better"

Vattendroppe
25-04-2007, 20:17
i think there is an old song that goes: "any thing you can do, i can do better"

I've seen a lot of doubleposting from you, just wanted to say that there's an edit button so that you can edit the last bit to your post instead of adding posts everytime you think of something that you're forgetting. Keeps the forums ice and tidy :)

Bretagne
25-04-2007, 20:30
hey lets keep this on topic, after all, GW does suck.

Mahwell Skel
25-04-2007, 22:36
Having considered the above arguments some models do cause me some concern. In particular the empire engineers and the Goblin "fanatics".

I have been in this hobby for 20 years now and fondly recall GWs 50p minis (2.50 for a blister of 5) that were amazingly detailed and in fact reach higher prices on ebay now than they were originally sold for (allowing me to rationalize with my wife that they are in fact antiques NOT toys;) ).

However some of the common theme of this thread is GW minis now lack detail and "better" more desirable figures are available from FW such as DKoK.
Now there are many threads about them being expensive but also many praising them and I bet most 40K players were drooling over the mounted troopers.

I believe GW has had to weigh up the mass plastic (cheap to the consumer) option as a commercial reality. Plastic minis are easy to introduce young modellers to (the future) as they are one step up from your first airfix and as a result some of the detailed minis have gone by the wayside (or wayshrine?).

The question is if GW produced detailed lead minis at, say between 5 to 10 each would you be prepared to pay that and for how long? How many of your friends would? A whole unit or 1 mini?

Special characters are the example of this in action but each race only has a limited number of course, now GW must have considered market research and come up with this as a solution to providing some quality metal minis.

As far as GZ you don't like the similarities don't buy them!

Check out the undead horsemen with spears, oh dear lord! If VC get an update and GW bring out some undead horsemen that are any good are they copying? Now you cannot tell me you prefer the plastic GW ones!

Sorry to go on (and my first post :) ) this web site is amazing congrats to all involved!

Sentinel75
26-04-2007, 00:31
my 2 cents: we need more mini companies not less, i just wish there was an easy way to buy these in the usa.

Bretagne
26-04-2007, 01:06
truer words have never been spoken Sentinel75. and by the way, i love your avatar!

dodicula
26-04-2007, 08:14
Again, GW did NOT create humans with guns, but they created an image of humans with guns that is very specific to warhammer fantasy.



So wait, just because the pieces of the idea are different, that makes the idea different? I'm sorry but that's not at all convincing. That's like saying that Google and Yahoo searches are different because they search for things on the internet with a different interfact and search for items differently. THEY'RE BOTH SEARCH ENGINES. Plain and simple, those fanatics, while looking better than GWs(to some extent) ARE goblin fanatics as CONCEPTUALIZED by GW. Come on dude, even the poses are direct "steals" from GWs initial sculpts!

No matter how you try to skew it, GZ obviously steals GWs Intellectual concepts(and hell, sometimes improves on them!).



P.S. Just because something isn't against the law doesn't mean it isn't wrong

Agreed, but I fail to see how making a cooler version of a generic concept is anything but right, the civilization advances when we borrow ideas and improve on them.

There is no such thing as "stealing" an Idea, Ideas are free and if anything our IP laws go too far in restricting them to protect would be "innovaters", there is such a thing as copying which would mean casting GW's goblins and selling them as your own (or using any part of gws statues)



So wait, just because the pieces of the idea are different, that makes the idea different

Yes it does, Otherwise GW owes someone royalties for: orcs, goblins, elves,lizardmen...




You're right, as stated before, that GW did not invent goblins, orcs, or the slew of other things that you've mentoned. But you've failed to address my statement about the fact that GW DID indeed associate dudes with puffy shirts, foppy hats, crazy moustaches, full plate armor, riding around on horses with gatling guns.


Actually I associate dudes with puffy shirts, foppy hats, crazy moustaches, full plate armor, riding around on horses with gatling guns, with leanardo di'vnci, the rennaisance and any number of steam punk genres before "The Empire" came along.

BTW whoever brought up the point about yahoo and google being similiar was correct, they are similiar, they both built on earlier search engines, and reperesent slightly different takes on a "genre" of software, neither one of them considers themselves to have stolen anything, even though they are really similiar (moreso than the two sculpts mentioned). It just so happens that google works better than yahoo, so more people use it. Yahoo is smart to try to improve its engine instead of complaining.


p.s. are you saying GW blatantly ripped off the lizard-men from tsr?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tomb_of_the_Lizard_King.jpeg

dodge33cymru
26-04-2007, 13:08
If you're in the USA, there's a stockist who runs an ebay store. Can't remember the name right now, but search eBay.COM for 'gamezone' and there are one or two in the section after auction listings. Now for a UK stockist.........


edit: http://stores.ebay.com/Geekman-Games-and-Comics Good price and cheap postage - and no, I don't work for them. I live in the UK so I've never ordered from them, so can't vouch for reliability. Still, there you go.

blongbling
26-04-2007, 15:49
It is absurd, ironic (see laserburn) and libleous that things made in the same genres as GW's generic fantasy armies should be called rip-offs. It is also an insult to the gamezone sculpters who, quite frankly, ate GW's sculptors lunch, It is not illegal or immoral to sculpt to a GENERIC FANTASY THEME!
Jesus christ, we live in a capitalist society, since when is competition a bad thing!

Perhaps GW and its Fan Boys should actually create something original before they cry foul about having it copied

true about not creating these genres, what isnt allowed is for them to e called Brettonian knights, or Dark Elf Cold One knights......there could be a case for them looking enough like GW stuff for them to look more at them though

dodicula
26-04-2007, 17:37
true about not creating these genres, what isnt allowed is for them to e called Brettonian knights, or Dark Elf Cold One knights......there could be a case for them looking enough like GW stuff for them to look more at them though

I hope they do look at them, realize how much better gamezone is, and hire better sculptors

General Veers
26-04-2007, 18:31
edit: http://stores.ebay.com/Geekman-Games-and-Comics Good price and cheap postage - and no, I don't work for them. I live in the UK so I've never ordered from them, so can't vouch for reliability. Still, there you go. $3.25 shipping is cheap. $1.00 for each ADDTIONAL item is NOT. :mad:

That makes the US store more expensive (or at least equal to) ordering from:
German site:http://www.battlefield-berlin.de/shop/index.php?cat=WG426
UK store: http://www.artemisblacks.com/gamezone.shtml

If you're in the UK or Europe, then buying from the US retailer might make sense considering the exchange rate. Although I don't know what the seller charges for worldwide shipping.

The Borgal Rantipol
27-04-2007, 12:21
Personally, I love the Gamezone miniatures and bought a shed load at Salute07. I love the GW artwork in the army books, and I am almost always disappointed by how those images are interpreted by the sculptors. The poses often look too static and the scales are often cartoony (big hands and heads, squat little legs, etc.).

GW sculpts are certainly improving, but Gamezone miniatures truely capture the world I invisage when I read the GW army books.

At Salute, the Gamezone stall was easily the busiest out of the fantasy miniature retailers. They were quite obviously unprepared for the level of interest they received. Despite having a sign so low down that it was obscured by the - three people deep - throng of would-be punters and the
staff having limited english language skills, they still managed to sell out of just about everything.

I've found some of the miniatures do require a fair bit of modelling skill to assemble, but the end results are more than worth it. These are what GW minis should look like.

borgal

ashc
27-04-2007, 13:01
Personally I find it highly amusing when other companies manage to create GW-IP models better than in-house GW :D

Ash

Sanjuro
27-04-2007, 13:16
GZ obviously steals GWs Intellectual concepts(and hell, sometimes improves on them!).


Agreed.

GW should probably hire those Spanish sculptors quick like.

Archaon
27-04-2007, 13:42
Please no

The advantage they have is that they are free and unrestricted in their creativity and are not burdened by a big corporation. They have a cool idea.. let's do it unlike in corporations where you have to adhere to guidelines, have to check back with your bosses and meet demands of the production processes.

Granted.. they pretty much "steal" GW IP properties which may land them in hot water if they manage to become big enough to do more than itch GW uncomfortably (they even call them Goblin Fanatics!) but they sure put their unique visuals to the projects and that shows.

Another advantage is that their miniatures are all metal and you can still have more detail with metal than with plastics.. GW plastics have sure improved quite a bit but a trained eye will still be able to spot a painted plastic against a metal miniature.

Another reason is that GW tends to keep their miniatures "easy", i.e. big smooth surfaces on banners, not too complicated miniatures etc which makes it easier and faster for the kids to paint them.

All considered i think GZ is doing very fine and i'll be seriously considering buying their stuff when it fits my army.. i'll be happy to pay their slightly bigger price for a vastly superior model where i really feel i'll be getting something in return.

General Veers
27-04-2007, 13:52
I love the GW artwork in the army books, and I am almost always disappointed by how those images are interpreted by the sculptors. The poses often look too static and the scales are often cartoony (big hands and heads, squat little legs, etc.).A good example of that comes from the Dark Elves book. Artwork of the Witch Elves in the book do not resemble the Witch Elves for sale as miniatures. If GameZone gets the idea to make "Mad Evil Lady Elves" I'd bet they'd look much like the artwork in the DE book. Which is about the only good thing in the DE book. :mad:


GW sculpts are certainly improving, but Gamezone miniatures truely capture the world I invisage when I read the GW army books.I agree with the second part. The first part I think isn't really happening. It seems GW is stuck being a corporate entity in motion, mediocre talent at a price that's affordable, to them, keeping the margin at an appropriate level. Whether the miniatures attain the look of the Warhammer World in books is probably way down on the list.

ZeroTwentythree
27-04-2007, 13:59
Another reason is that GW tends to keep their miniatures "easy", i.e. big smooth surfaces on banners, not too complicated miniatures etc which makes it easier and faster for the kids to paint them.



I don't equate "easy" with "simple design," and I wouldn't characterize all of GWs figures that way in the first place.

Big smooth surfaces on banners, and simplicity in figures in general, allows the painter and modeler a freer hand in what they do with a figure. A figure with all the detail sculpted on and every surface covered with chains, bits of parchment, skulls, spikes, skulls with spikes on them, spikes with skulls on them, etc. leave little room for showing off painting skills, customization and originality.

Pokpoko
27-04-2007, 14:02
If GameZone gets the idea to make "Mad Evil Lady Elves" I'd bet they'd look much like the artwork in the DE book. Which is about the only good thing in the DE book. :mad:

i'v heard from the polish distribiutor of their minis that the next release from gamezone will be...yes, crazy elven babes in full plate bikini:p (not that they will look like this,mind you,i'm sure GZ will show us something more refined)
*edit*found the article->upcoming releases will be(in no particular order)
Dwarf Miniers, including "digging up from the ground" models
Orc boar cavalry-5 different sculpts
orc chariot-said to be a massive model.
goblin chariot
Dark Elf witches
Wood Elf "wardancers"
Wood Elf heroes on foot.

Archaon
27-04-2007, 14:05
That may be however sculpted details really makes a model for me.. even with mediocre painting skills or basic "don't paint out of the boundaries" style painting such a miniature looks vastly better than a "plain" one.

Especially stand out miniatures like banners or champions benefit from that.. i've lost count on seeing badly painted free hands on banners and much prefer the sculpted ones.

Stingray_tm
27-04-2007, 14:15
Usually i am not a fan of copies, but just look at what they did with the High Elves. They look how Elves should look like. Noble, elegant but strong and heterosexual. Unlike the GW version...

http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/images/product_images/popup_images/203_0.jpg

http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/images/product_images/popup_images/218_0.jpg

http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/images/product_images/popup_images/229_0.jpg

http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/images/product_images/popup_images/217_1.jpg

I will wait for the next High Elves army book, then i will decide what models will be from Citadel, and what from GZ...

The only thing preventing me from starting an HE army right now is that i would prefer more "at ease" poses for the regiments.

KITS AND BITS
27-04-2007, 15:03
nice to see people moaning about GW models again ,we really need more posts like this ! i know other people have jumped to the defence of the "plastic out riders " so i wont go down the same route .fact is 99% of players cant paint for toffee and ultra detail is wasted on table top models anyway.
but you only need to look at GW's forge world team and jes goodwin to realise that they can do detail and IMHO better than almost anyone in the world.

Sentinel75
27-04-2007, 15:07
fact is 99% of players cant paint for toffee and ultra detail is wasted on table top models anyway.

So this is an excuse for crappy, non-detailed miniatures? Hell, why dont we just use cardboard counters then?

ZeroTwentythree
27-04-2007, 15:14
Especially stand out miniatures like banners or champions benefit from that.. i've lost count on seeing badly painted free hands on banners and much prefer the sculpted ones.


Heh. It's all a matter of taste. Personally, I'd rather see customized/original ideas executed poorly than a sculpted-on identical banner in every army I face. Besides, that's what they sell decals for. :D

Ward.
27-04-2007, 15:56
I think i smell fan boy set up, or a plant, grr lol.

I like the GZ models, they should sell the designs to GW. I only have a problem with them because they take profit's from GW, the same company that has spent years designing rules and promoting the game. Even if they are a corporate entity, without them people like GZ would have very little interest in there products.

And Gw stops people from bringing in miniatures from other company's for obvious reasons, including the detail side of things.

But also with such detail and specific designs all metal conversions would be far more difficult (green stuff filling grooves, can the metal's maintain integrity after drilling, etc).

And yes GW may not be original in all of there idea's, but they've given them a unique spin, GZ used the same idea and represented it slightly differently.
Like a sheep, doesn't matter if it's been shawn or not, its still a sheep and that's what you really want.

Kudos for the hard work tho :)

EDIT: woops somewhat off topic, the GZ horses look good, and i like the guns, in fact if you could get them separately i'd use them on witch hunter inquisitors.

spikedog
27-04-2007, 16:10
You know as much as there are "GW fanboys" there are "anything but GW fanboys" that automatically slag off everything GW does and is just because they like another companies models better. (Bretagne that means you, and yes I am "calling you out")

Here are the facts people. GW is the BIGGEST wargame miniature company in the world. They got there by being THE BEST. FACT!

There are other companies out there that have better artists, painters and sculpters and maybe in 10-20 years we will see anoter comapany at the top. However they will not get there by clearly copying GW's work.

GZ do some fantastic stuff but if they were to produce an original line of models and backed it up with some nice rules then we could see a great new company in the making but as it stands we have what amounts to some guys ripping off a large companies ideas to make money. Nothing short of pirates.

I like GW, I like their models and their rules, if you don't like this then that is fine but don't say "GW is crap" as it is simply not true.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
27-04-2007, 16:13
The Gamezone models are blatant ripoffs, there is no two ways about it. If some of their stuff occasionally seemed similar then that would be inevitable, GW has taken a lot of ideas from elsewhere themselves and there's only so many different ways you can take most fantasy concepts in the end. But this is so blatant it's almost offensive, I'd be in a state of unbridled fury if I was in GW's shoes right now.

dodicula
27-04-2007, 17:29
Please no

The advantage they have is that they are free and unrestricted in their creativity and are not burdened by a big corporation. They have a cool idea.. let's do it unlike in corporations where you have to adhere to guidelines, have to check back with your bosses and meet demands of the production processes.

Granted.. they pretty much "steal" GW IP properties which may land them in hot water if they manage to become big enough to do more than itch GW uncomfortably (they even call them Goblin Fanatics!) but they sure put their unique visuals to the projects and that shows.

Another advantage is that their miniatures are all metal and you can still have more detail with metal than with plastics.. GW plastics have sure improved quite a bit but a trained eye will still be able to spot a painted plastic against a metal miniature.

Another reason is that GW tends to keep their miniatures "easy", i.e. big smooth surfaces on banners, not too complicated miniatures etc which makes it easier and faster for the kids to paint them.

All considered i think GZ is doing very fine and i'll be seriously considering buying their stuff when it fits my army.. i'll be happy to pay their slightly bigger price for a vastly superior model where i really feel i'll be getting something in return.

People who seem to like libeling GZ- Does GZ infringe on GW's copyrights, patents or trademarks? (btw, I checked, Goblin Fanatics are not trademarked which means that GW almost certainly got the name from public domain, or stole the name from someone else)

To the person who mentioned "anything but gw fandboys", people who disparage gw are anything but GW fan-boys. This claim is absurd, People simply don't like being fed rubbish and told its cake. We talk about Rackham and GZ because THEY ARE BETTER and work quite well to create unique and more attractive warhammer armies. You don't see bretagne or me praising eureka minis do you?

I personally have about 4,000 dollars worth of GW miniatures and I only play whfb (which I think is the best rules system out there), but GW has fallen to a distant 3rd in terms of miniature creation and their quality (and sales) is declining while prices are rising. I hope they get the message and improve, because unlike 40K, most of what GW produces in fantasy is not their intellectuall property at all but derivitive works!

Archaon
27-04-2007, 17:35
Here are the facts people. GW is the BIGGEST wargame miniature company in the world. They got there by being THE BEST. FACT!

WRONG! (see.. i can shout too:rolleyes: )

GW got there because they made the right decision at the right time and got bigger before anyone else thus being able to singlehandedly dominate their entire market (it is the same with Microsoft.. right place at the right time). After that they were so big and well known that their products almost sold themselves on their own.

Fact is that GZ models are even more expensive than GW models but people buy them?
Why? Because they are good.. that's why. People get mad at GW prices but i've yet to see a pricing comment on GW models which i attribute to better quality and perceived notion that GW models are actually worth their price.

Archaon
27-04-2007, 17:42
People who seem to like libeling GZ- Does GZ infringe on GW's copyrights, patents or trademarks? (btw, I checked, Goblin Fanatics are not trademarked which means that GW almost certainly got the name from public domain, or stole the name from someone else)



The problem i could see is that some GZ models are extremely close to the visuals of GW and that may bring problems.

Goblins in robes wielding chainballs around is so close in visuals that GW could sue them for IP infringement because that is a rather unique visual.. i can't recall such specific visuals anywhere.

Normal goblins are fair game.. there have been depictions of them a bazillion times and even if they wore robes there's not much GW could do to prove any IP theft.
The mounted GZ "engineers" are another tricky thing.. also extremely close to the GW visuals.

I believe GW is watching GZ very closely but so far they don't seem to have a measurable effect on GW's bottom line so they left alone.. for now.
However as soon as more people come to non-GW organised tournaments with the majority of models from GZ GW may decide that a court battle might be worth the cost of taking GZ down a notch.
So far i have seen bits and pieces of them at tournaments but not entire armies.. they are spreading but not so fast that they are a common sight.

dodicula
27-04-2007, 17:53
The problem i could see is that some GZ models are extremely close to the visuals of GW and that may bring problems.

Goblins in robes wielding chainballs around is so close in visuals that GW could sue them for IP infringement because that is a rather unique visual.. i can't recall such specific visuals anywhere.

Normal goblins are fair game.. there have been depictions of them a bazillion times and even if they wore robes there's not much GW could do to prove any IP theft.
The mounted GZ "engineers" are another tricky thing.. also extremely close to the GW visuals.

I believe GW is watching GZ very closely but so far they don't seem to have a measurable effect on GW's bottom line so they left alone.. for now.
However as soon as more people come to non-GW organised tournaments with the majority of models from GZ GW may decide that a court battle might be worth the cost of taking GZ down a notch.
So far i have seen bits and pieces of them at tournaments but not entire armies.. they are spreading but not so fast that they are a common sight.

Actually GW is pretty agressive about trying to shut down would be IP infringers see velard.ru (which WAS a blatant rip-off) but I think our insanely restrictive IP laws still give people more freedom to create than a lot of people here seem to think and that is why GZ are not shut down.

The case with fanatics specifically is that GW does not claim a trademark which means they had to have gotten the idea from somewhere else

Archaon
27-04-2007, 17:57
And from where?

I'm not that intimately familiar with all of the Fantasy genre but apart from GW i can't recall Goblins who wield chainballs around.. especially not in tabletops.

It is a blatant theft of GW IP but IP court battles are notoriously tricky and uncertain so GW may have decided it's not the time to come down on GW because the costs involved are not worth it right now.

dodicula
27-04-2007, 17:59
Arecheon, you are generalizing IP, IP law is a category of laws not a law. There are 3 types of legal protections for IP- Trademarks, Copyrights and Patents. GZ does not infringe on any of them save for possible Chaos (GW seems to claim that as a trademark). A look or style cannot be patented,copyrighted or trade-marked (that is why clothes designers all make similar clothes, and perfumes have imposters). The only way GZ is liable is if it: made exact copies or copies of conversions of GW minis (copyright), called them the exact name as gw and that GW has trade-marked (trad mark law) other than that, GW will just have to deal

lilljonas
27-04-2007, 18:16
You can indeed copy protect style and looks. My sister works at Sony Ericsson doing that, for their mobile phones. You can copy protect general design points, that's where a lot of Apple's big legal battles have been about, people making products looking "kind of" like ipods etc. If it's close enough to be confused by an average consumer, it's close enough for legal battles if the stakes are high enough.

Archaon
27-04-2007, 18:21
Exactly.. that's what i meant.

You can protect a visual if it is unique enough.. the problem is proving said uniqueness against the accused company but that can be a long court issue and i just assume GW is not willing to do that right now.

lilljonas
27-04-2007, 18:29
Yes, it's probably a question about cost vs losses. Sending a layer to muscle an e-bay seller (which has happened) is probably easier than going against a company. But if GW is prepared to stop bitz companies, I have a hard time imagining that GZ will be left alone without a fight. We'll see, they seems to be up and coming, so the blip on the radar will probably become bigger and bigger.

Chimpeh
28-04-2007, 00:40
Hmmm changing the subject slightly from whether or not GZ's models are too similar to GWs, I would like to know whether or not the minis produced by GZ are 28mm? I'm assuming that they are, however I haven't seen anything that states the fact.

Thanks in advance,
Chimpeh

lilljonas
28-04-2007, 00:50
Says 28mm on the site. A comparison shot would be proper, though, to show what kind of 28mm.

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 00:59
Says 28mm on the site. A comparison shot would be proper, though, to show what kind of 28mm.

it would also show how better the GZ minitatures are. sorry i couldnt resist.

ekxw
28-04-2007, 01:04
uhmm i dont have a better pic
http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics11/img460b8c597d409.jpg

you know the size of the rock of the bftsp

and the horses look this ones and compare the rider of gw with the horse

http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics11/img453f39c846ce8.jpg

sorry dont have better pics

shutupSHUTUP!!!
28-04-2007, 01:05
it would also show how better the GZ minitatures are. sorry i couldnt resist.

Have you any intention of taking part in worthwhile discussion? At all? Your constant attacks are not conducive to any sort of intelligent debate, whilst on the other hand other posters have responded to your "points" yet you've ignored them in order to continue your sniping. It's just pathetic and I can't take you seriously whilst you revel in such overt bias.

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 01:10
Have you any intention of taking part in worthwhile discussion? At all? Your constant attacks are not conducive to any sort of intelligent debate, whilst on the other hand other posters have responded to your "points" yet you've ignored them in order to continue your sniping. It's just pathetic.

annoying pathetic posters on the internet? what is this world coming to. you know, alot of thought goes into all of my posts, you should check them out sometime. im always willing to give people straight advice on anything they post. im being honest. i think these GZ miniatures are superior to GW and i will say this until GW proves otherwise. if you dont like it, then you should stand as a shining example of what a true internet smart aleck should act like.

the discussion can now begin now that we have some pictures curtesy of one very helpful warseer. and now, for my comment:
"Wow, nice Dwarves. I told you so!"

ive spent alot of money on GW stuff, so much that i dont think i have to do so anymore. are you so blind that you cannot see the great works that are going on in different companies, all IP debates aside?

the only reason why i seem so cheeky and rude is because i like GW. i think its a great company, and has been one for many years. But now, their product isnt up to snuff, and other companies are testing my loyalty to GW with beautifully sculpted miniatures perfect for integration into any one of my existing armies.

rinse and repeat, sucka freak.

"Whilst you Revel in such overt bias" ooh! im shaking now!

shutupSHUTUP!!!
28-04-2007, 01:12
i think these GZ miniatures are superior to GW and i will say this until GW proves otherwise.

How does GW go about proving a subjective opinion wrong? Nevermind that it misses the point entirely and that many people are more concerned with the blatant copying of ideas than which models are best.

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 01:21
The Gamezone models are blatant ripoffs, there is no two ways about it. If some of their stuff occasionally seemed similar then that would be inevitable, GW has taken a lot of ideas from elsewhere themselves and there's only so many different ways you can take most fantasy concepts in the end. But this is so blatant it's almost offensive, I'd be in a state of unbridled fury if I was in GW's shoes right now.

i would be mad too, exspecially if another company was copying my trademarks and making my own sculpts look like junk. i hope that all of this, (meaning other miniatures companies) will light a fire beneath those fellers at GW and force some healthy competition.

honestly shutupguy, would GW or any of its affiliates complain and be angry if the sculpts in question were worse instead of better?

and i just realized something. for many people, ie Warhammer players, the fantastic concepts conceived in the background and fluff has become the canon. for all i care, all orcs are green, big and carry weapons made for chopping. Maybe GZ sculptors are paying tribute to what they consider a classic goblin device (ball and chain). and if you read their site, the miniatures are meant to look like their GW counterparts for a reason, your supposed to play warhammer fantasy battles with them. they have to be similar otherwise they wouldnt look as good, and we wouldnt be having this discussion.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
28-04-2007, 01:31
honestly shutupguy, would GW or any of its affiliates complain and be angry if the sculpts in question were worse instead of better?

Actually I've seen examples from several small companies over the years that seemed to be making models under GW's IP. Some of them were pretty terrible and I'm sure some of them garnered GW's attention.

Anyway, you seem to be a master at studiously missing the point. It is not Games Workshop that is complaining here, it is actually numerous people who may well have no connection to GW whatsoever, I know I don't. And as of yet GW has taken no legal action against this company, despite the models in your view being better. Say hello to Mr. Strawman for me.

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 01:38
then i think you better take to the streets and take back your wargame!!!!
After all, GW actually cares about what you think!!!!
Viva La Revolution!

Scanno
28-04-2007, 02:00
Please capitalise Bretagne, your posts are a bit confusing; makes it seem like you're just saying the same thing again and again.

On topic, those are very very pretty outriders. Therein lies the problem; they are outriders. Checking out their other stuff, it's all very nice. But it looks straight out of the Warhammer world, which could lead to a little model company being squished sometime in the next year or so.

dodicula
28-04-2007, 06:22
How does GW go about proving a subjective opinion wrong? Nevermind that it misses the point entirely and that many people are more concerned with the blatant copying of ideas than which models are best.

Many people != 3 guys on an internet forum, especially when the GZ minis are clearly generic fantasy and not GW copies. We hear YOUR OPINION, you are entitled to it, but so far you have not answered any of my questions (copyright, trademark or patent and the why night goblin fanatics not trademarked), and so it doesn't look like you have many facts to back it up.

Also, I don't know every work of fantasy that ever existed, so I can't definatively say whether Night Goblin Fanatics exist somewhere else, but the fact that they couldn't get a trade-mark for them makes me fairly sure that they COULD NOT rather than DID NOT

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 06:27
Dodicula! have you seen these ruffians attack me so? i cant believe GW has so many allies!

lie to me and say that these engineers wouldnt look awesome in a fully painted empire army.

Scanno
28-04-2007, 12:39
Noone's denying that, they're beautiful models, and much much nicer than the gw equivalents. I'm tempted to get some of their stuff to paint it, because there are loads of very very pretty things there. But they're clearly using GW imagery. Gatling guns aren't in many fantasy settings. Gatling gunners on horseback with puffy sleeves led by a guy with a fantasy setting sniper rifle is a wee bit close to the bone for an outrider unit for it to be pure coincidance.

EvC
28-04-2007, 12:59
But it looks straight out of the Warhammer world, which could lead to a little model company being squished sometime in the next year or so.

Alternatively it could lead to the magic of COMPETITION, whereby Games Workshop feel that they have to create miniatures of a level of quality as good as - if not better than - the Gamezome models.

I believe this leads to the concept known as "win-win", becuase the result is that everyone wins. People who like the GZ models can buy them. People who like the GW models can buy them. And the generally ebtter mdoels all round mean there will be more people buying them than if it was just GW making rubbish models.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
28-04-2007, 14:17
Rackham is competition, Privateer Press is competition, Warmachine is competition. Gamezone steal GW's IP and GW's ideas (robed goblin fanatic wielding a huge ball and chain, outriders etc).

Ward.
28-04-2007, 14:18
Not quite, there's a chance of GW pulling out of the model business and having to make cuts once they see some one else doing there work (like closing there forums, or side stepping there version of army builder), which could eventually lead to the collapse of the game :( (maybe). Or it could be a boost even, who knows?

Pokpoko
28-04-2007, 14:32
Rackham is competition, Privateer Press is competition, Warmachine is competition. Gamezone steal GW's IP and GW's ideas (robed goblin fanatic wielding a huge ball and chain, outriders etc).
the models are heavily inspired by the GW aestethics. yet, not a single of them really break that thin line of "inspired" and "copy" goblins with chains? yep, the idea is straigt from GW. the model isin't, it's disticnt enough to be a different product.

i'm sure that if GW was sure of their victory, they'd have taken the case to the court already.fortunetly they havent squashed a great company that producec suberb minis out of exictance yet.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
28-04-2007, 14:40
I'm not denying they're good models, I don't think anyone is doing that. But if they are such clearly good sculptors then why don't they create their own game and at least put their own spin on ideas they take from elsewhere? Making models clearly taken from Games Workshop's specific imagery and clearly marketing these models for GW's own games crosses the line in my book. I agree they are great models but I disagree that they are a great company, I've little respect for this sort of thing.

I think it's worth quoting what lilljonas wrote on the last page too since both bretagne and dodicula ignored him:


Also, you asked what's wrong with outright copying. In this case, the problem is that GW spends lots of money on concept artists and concept sculpts to find the theme and the look of their models. GZ doesn't need that, since GW's models are their concept art.

Also this is probably a bit unfair too: it almost seems like the progress is that GW plows down money into R&D, spends lots of time to think out the designs and themes, and make their models. After release, players complain about detail A and perspective B being lame. And so GZ remakes the same model, and makes it cooler.

dodicula
28-04-2007, 15:43
Dodicula! have you seen these ruffians attack me so? i cant believe GW has so many allies!

lie to me and say that these engineers wouldnt look awesome in a fully painted empire army.

Actually I don't think they would, the empire looks more german, and these guys are CLEARLY spanish looking (see TMP, where the guy is talking about using them in his historicals army)

dodicula
28-04-2007, 15:52
Making models clearly taken from Games Workshop's specific imagery

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

People who make Fuedal Knights ARE NOT COPYING GW
People who make Spanish Pikemen ARE NOT COPYING GW
People who make Egyptian Undead, Are not copying GW
People who make Good or Evil Elves ARE NOT COPYING GW
People who make Lizardmen ARE NOT COPYING GW
The list goes on...
In all these cases its GW thats copying someone else.
but I refuse to waste more time arguing with people that think GW invented Knights in plate armour.

Whats Next insisting France is infringing on GWs ip for using the same Province names as Brettonia? Clearly you don't understand generic when you see it. Peace out, i'm gonna go order me some decent miniatures.

lilljonas
28-04-2007, 16:21
People making spanish feudal knights are not copying GW, that's right. People making evil elves are not necessarily copying GW either. Noone is claiming that.

However, people making robed, crazed goblins swinging spiked balls in chains called "fanatics" are copying GW. I think that there's plenty of room for discussions of the ethical questions of copying IP and the positive or negative effects this has on the hobby in general and GW specifically. But by being blind to blatant rip-offs and shouting "they are not GW ripoffs! They are generic fantasy goblin fanatics, a common theme in all fantasy!" and "they are doing GW better than GW!" at the same time is not only a paradox and a insult to our intellects, it is also a way to try to smother this serious discussion.

They are copies. It's not "generic fantasy" when you not only take specific details of an existing range and recreate them, but repeatedly copy a range to copy the exact models of that range. They are basically taking the WH army lists and copying the models from them. That is copying. Not generic fantasy. If GZ made several lineups and just happened to have a few miniatures that overlapped GW's lineup, this entire discussion would not exist. A lot fo companies have these, and a lot of people look at those lineups, say "hey, this one just happens to be pretty close to a rat ogre!", and use them. And it's not a big deal. This is different. These are entire ranges that are blatant copies not only individually, but with the entire range. Then you can not reasably excuse it with "oh, our interpretations of generic fantasy themes just happens to clash". To make it more obvious: if I write a fantasy novel of a bunch of heroes who has to deliver an evil magical artifact, you might say "Oh, he sure must have read a lot of Tolkien before writing that!". But it's still not an offensive rip-off: it's a generic theme that a lot of novels have used. However, if I wrote a fantasy novel where a bunch of Hobbits, coincidentially called Frodo, Merry and Pippin, led by a wizard called Gandalf and an elf called Legoles undertook this journey, I can't just stand up and say "hey, my elf was called Legoles, not Legolas!" and claim it's not a rip-off. GZ, I'd say, have a huge bunch of Legoles in their lineup.

Ward.
28-04-2007, 16:24
Yeah but the French aren't trying to sell province's based on the descriptions of bretonia's provinces for use in the warhammer miniatures game :S

lilljonas
28-04-2007, 17:33
Boredom and bad weather keeps me posting here.

I just realized a spanish parallell case (what's with these spaniards?). Andrea Miniatures, well known to all non-GW miniature collectors, started just like this. They made extremely obvious rip-offs of other companies IPs, and somehow spanish laws protected them from the boatload of american lawyers wanting their hides. We're speaking Spiderman miniatures called "the arachnid", Terminator II Arnolds called "Future Cyborg" and Batman called "caped crusader" or something like that. That level of blatant IP theft. But they were great sculpts, and even though people were very ambivalent towards them, they recently grew up, stopped ripping off other people's IPs and are now one of the market leaders in 54mm miniatures.

It will be interesting to see if GZ has the same level of talent and are able to succeed as a "proper" miniature producer in the future, or if they lack talent enough to produce things of their own. If they do, kudos to them. A lot of great painters copied others to get good, "standing on the shoulders of giants" and all that. But it is once they take that extra step and provide something of their own that you know if they are just good at knocking off things or if they truly have something to bring to the hobby. I hope for the latter. Andrea turned from "those good rip-offs that you felt guilty considering buying" into one of the coolest miniature companies out there. Let's hope GZ takes up that challange.

EDIT: they still do that bullcrap now and again though, like a Jean-Luc Picard miniature called "starship commander", but it is now the exception, not their standard practice. Again, what's the deal with those spaniards?

shutupSHUTUP!!!
28-04-2007, 17:56
You've got very balanced opinions lilljonas and I agree with most of what you've wrote. Though I don't think we should tolerate this sort of behaviour for the sake of what the offending company might become. I suppose plagiarism lets new companies get a foothold in the industry. But that's because it's a shortcut and easy route compared to starting with your own ideas and talent from scratch, it's done at the expense of other people who did much of the hard work for you.

EmperorNorton
28-04-2007, 18:21
After the thread was posted I checked out the Gamezone site and saw that they had raised their prices, so I hurried to make an order before my usual store adjusted their price in return.

Somehow I fail to see the ethical dilemma here.
There are a few cases where I think GZ's minis border on plagiarism. That's the Fanatics and maybe the Slayers because of the mohawk; I don't see problems with any of their other stuff.
I bought two of their Slayers in January and just ordered the Fanatics and don't have a bad conscience at all using these minis while playing Warhammer. After all I paid for my rulebook and I'll play the game whichever way I see fit. I don't think I owe GW any loyalty.
If they have ground for legal measures they'll take them, but that's not really for me to worry about.

EvC
28-04-2007, 18:39
Just wondering, but do the posters opposed to GZ's activities also oppose the "Avatars of War" models (sometimes advertised on this site)?

The site's http://avatars-of-war.com/web2mail/web2mail.php for anyone wishing to have a looksy...

Revlid
28-04-2007, 18:42
Hmm. The sculpts are better than GW's, certainly, but I won't be buying GZ miniatures for two reasons:

1. I prefer plastic to metal. Metal is harder to paint and harder to cut.
2. I hate rip-offs.

Now, say what you will about generic fantasy ideas, but Gamezone (and a number of other minor miniature companies, most of them rubbish) has quite merrily nabbed Games Workshop's intellectual property. Whether they have better sculpts or not is not the issue for me.
Plus they don't have any good Ogre figures. :(

And Bretagne, you are being extremely irritating and not contributing anything to the discussion beyond accusing those who support Games Workshop of being "allies" or "plants".

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 18:45
Not quite, there's a chance of GW pulling out of the model business and having to make cuts once they see some one else doing there work (like closing there forums, or side stepping there version of army builder), which could eventually lead to the collapse of the game :( (maybe). Or it could be a boost even, who knows?

i think that they could still publish literature, the game could still exist. there is hope.

lilljonas
28-04-2007, 18:52
Just wondering, but do the posters opposed to GZ's activities also oppose the "Avatars of War" models (sometimes advertised on this site)?

The site's http://avatars-of-war.com/web2mail/web2mail.php for anyone wishing to have a looksy...

I think the general idea is nifty, and I don't have any problem with a company making generic fantasy heroes. The dwarf hero though is a bit lame, since it's clearly a ripoff of GW's slayers. Again, a good sculpter would be able to create something new, something unique. Taking a GW model and putting it in a new pose and just adding some details is lame. Creativity=good. Copycat models=lame.


You've got very balanced opinions lilljonas and I agree with most of what you've wrote. Though I don't think we should tolerate this sort of behaviour for the sake of what the offending company might become. I suppose plagiarism lets new companies get a foothold in the industry. But that's because it's a shortcut and easy route compared to starting with your own ideas and talent from scratch, it's done at the expense of other people who did much of the hard work for you.

Yes, that's the thing. All artists starts out by copying. That's how you learn, no matter if it's stenciling your favourite comic artists or copying painting schemes from CMON. So basically, I don't have a problem with copying per se. What I do have a problem with is making a business out of copying (except for pharmaceutics and genetical patent law, which I have a huge problem with, but that's something completley different), and what I have even more of a problem with is people considering such copying to be the second coming of Christ. Before shouting "OMG it's so much better, GW must hire their sculptors NOW!1!!GWsucksROFLstupidfanboyz!", look at their models that are not more or less copies of GW models. They are much poorer IMHO. Their best stuff is the ones that are based on GW designs. The models people are raving about most is their fanatics, their slayers, their outriders. Once they make a unique range that shows that they can go the entire way from creating their own concept design and sculpt them properly, then I'm ready to consider them a good company. They're not there yet, far from it.

EDIT:

and for "as long as GW doesn't get them sued out of business, that's proof that it's not theft of IP", here's an evidence to the lenght of theft that is evidently ok in Spain. From Andrea miniatures:

http://www.andrea-miniatures.com/images/andrea/detallepeque/SG-F35-01.JPG
"Cyborg 2020"
http://www.andrea-miniatures.com/images/andrea/detallepeque/SG-F64-01.JPG
"The Arachnid"
http://www.andrea-miniatures.com/images/andrea/detallepeque/SG-F96-03.JPG
"Starship Commander" (notice the Enterprise, if the likeness to Patrick Steward wasn't enough for you)
http://www.andrea-miniatures.com/images/andrea/detallepeque/SG-F85-02.jpg
"Space Hunter"

Yes. I doubt even blatant copies such as the slayers and fanatics can get GW to get them out of business, if an extremely high profile miniature company such as Andrea can sell these miniatures without getting sued. It's the magic of Spain, I guess.

Sanjuro
28-04-2007, 19:27
It's discussions like these (the intellectual property debate) that make me glad that I am also a historical wargamer. The fantasy wargaming (read: GW) comes with so much bad baggage and ill will.

lilljonas
28-04-2007, 19:34
It's discussions like these (the intellectual property debate) that make me glad that I am also a historical wargamer. The fantasy wargaming (read: GW) comes with so much bad baggage and ill will.

Quoted for truth. Parthians are noone's IP. That means that smaller companies can compete more (less need of R&D), and you can use several companies without worrying about someone mooching off someone else who has invested millions in R&D. Then all that matters is the quality of the sculpt. :)

shutupSHUTUP!!!
28-04-2007, 19:35
It's not just GW, there are several other industries with this type of problem, I've seen many intellectual property discussions regarding games, software and movies for instance. Warseer can be so small-minded in it's black/white "GW fanboy/frothing GW hater" rhetoric.

There is this Korean game called Soul of the Ultimate Nation for instance (weird name huh?), who intro movie rips off Lord of the Rings to a tee. Yet people will argue viciously that it's "generic fantasy" when scenes from the movies are 90% identical. If you can at least accept plagiarism when it's obvious then I'll hear you out on the ethics, but don't insult my intelligence.

Pokpoko
28-04-2007, 19:46
look at their models that are not more or less copies of GW models. They are much poorer IMHO. names please? is a cannon copy of the GW one,or a generic cannon? because either way it has more details, it's bigger, and has funky anchoring lines shown on the pic. and that's the case with the majority of the minis. there are a few bad ones(chaos dogs are just terrible imo),but the majority is easily as good as GW ones.

lilljonas
28-04-2007, 20:00
names please? is a cannon copy of the GW one,or a generic cannon? because either way it has more details, it's bigger, and has funky anchoring lines shown on the pic. and that's the case with the majority of the minis. there are a few bad ones(chaos dogs are just terrible imo),but the majority is easily as good as GW ones.

The ranges that are not copies of a GW range are "guerreras" and their high elves, and those barbarian female thingies are not impressive at all. Really poor proportions IMHO. Their high elves are a bit more original, I have to admit that. They go for the more heavily armoured look that anyone who knew Chronopia have seen. They look like Chronopia elves. That is not a very good thing. The poses are static and the details are significantly worse than their Dark Elves. Their dark elves are complete clones though, down to the repeating bolt throwers and cold ones("yes, all elves in generic fantasy have repeating bolt throwers and reptilian steeds, that's not a rip-off! Generic fantasy!". *sigh*).

The only things I think they do consistantly well are mounts. They are good at sculpting fantasy horses, and funnily enough that's what they do most differently than GW: huge, muscular, strong posed horses perfect for a fantasy setting. So they can evidently do something really well without copying GW. If they did that more often, this conversation would not be held.

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 20:11
There is this Korean game called Soul of the Ultimate Nation for instance (weird name huh?), who intro movie rips off Lord of the Rings to a tee. Yet people will argue viciously that it's "generic fantasy" when scenes from the movies are 90% identical. If you can at least accept plagiarism when it's obvious then I'll hear you out on the ethics, but don't insult my intelligence.

did they use actual scenes from the movie?

and i think that its time to differentiate between GW and Citadel. GW makes the rules and designs what become the models, whereas citadel actually makes the stuff.

Batwings
28-04-2007, 23:29
"and i think that its time to differentiate between GW and Citadel. GW makes the rules and designs what become the models, whereas citadel actually makes the stuff.:

Wrong. Entirely wrong I'm afraid. Citadel miniatures was its own company many moons ago but has been an intrinsic part of GW for a very long time. No one is employed by Citadel miniatures. It's little more than a familiar brand name these days.

Aorek
29-04-2007, 16:22
names please?

Thier choas warriors/knights are pretty awful. Once again great mounts but the guys themselves look short and fat with pretty dull armour too.

Bretagne
29-04-2007, 20:00
"and i think that its time to differentiate between GW and Citadel. GW makes the rules and designs what become the models, whereas citadel actually makes the stuff.:

Wrong. Entirely wrong I'm afraid. Citadel miniatures was its own company many moons ago but has been an intrinsic part of GW for a very long time. No one is employed by Citadel miniatures. It's little more than a familiar brand name these days.

i didnt know that. but why are the miniatures getting worse and worse then? why is it that they (GW and therefore Citadel) are cutting so many corners in regards to their newer sculpts?

lilljonas
29-04-2007, 20:09
That's because the "GW models are getting worse and worse!" is, in large parts, a figment of your imagination. It's the paradox that people are complaining about "OMG all the sculpts for my Skaven/VC/Beastmen are old and sucky, we need new ones!" and "OMG all new sculpts are bad!" at the same time.

There's always been bad sculpts and good sculpts. If you check a GW catalogue from 91, there's more bad sculpts per good sculpt than now. If you check a GW catalogue from 99 there's more bad sculpts per good sculpts than now. Whether they are called Citadel or Games Workshop doesn't have anything to do with it.

The reason for the decrease of detail is that there's more plastics now. Plastics are not, no matter what GW believes, as good for details as metallics. Sure they are leaps and bounds better than the plastics you saw in 3rd and 4th ed (again, pointing out that sculpts are not getting worse in the big picture), but they sure ain't a match to metallics.

EDIT: another reason for people believing that GW models are not as good now as before is because we are smack dab in the middle of a golden age of miniatures. There's more companies than ever, and there's more good sculpters than ever. With better miniatures, both fantasy, sci-fi and historicals to compare to than ever, GW doesn't stand out as much as it did some 10 years ago, where most miniatures looked like crap compared to Warhammer.

Bretagne
29-04-2007, 21:47
That's because the "GW models are getting worse and worse!" is, in large parts, a figment of your imagination. It's the paradox that people are complaining about "OMG all the sculpts for my Skaven/VC/Beastmen are old and sucky, we need new ones!" and "OMG all new sculpts are bad!" at the same time.



I have a beastman army comprised of all old models, and they look great. in fact, all of the old miniatures were good. Skaven, VC and Beastmen were all good across the board. The medium of polystyrene is, as you call it, not as good for detail. Thats true. I dont see any company with as much plastic product as GW. Other firms stick to making models out of pewter because doing so sets them apart from GW, who, by my own observations is moving towards game pieces rather than miniatures.
My game tokens from Lord of the Rings monopoly have more detail than the skull pass models!