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TheWarSmith
17-04-2007, 17:10
With the release of the new black orcs, I'm very tempted to start a black orc horde army. I love the plastics and the opportunity to convert them onto boars(yes i know they wouldn't be "black orc boar boys"), is awfully tempting.

Problem is that core would have to be filled out w/ orc boys, and I couldn't have those look anything like black orcs.

Grimgor's horde isn't still a legal army, is it?

Avian
17-04-2007, 17:25
The 'Ard Boyz list does not work with the new book. Use it together with the old book, or just use the new book on its own.

Vattendroppe
17-04-2007, 17:28
You could always consider making the core choises goblins? But it would pretty strange amongst all that black orcs. And with only 4 special slots to go that won't be very many orcs. IIRC there are no orcs as rare choise?

Tricky though, I think I'd go with gobbos converted to hobgobbos.

TheWarSmith
17-04-2007, 17:52
what are the orcish core choices? is it just savage, regular orc, night goblin, goblin, snotling?

If so, I suppose I could have orc Arrer boys for my core and fill up the fighting ranks with black orcs, then have 2 giants.

Countblah
17-04-2007, 18:00
I would also add some Night Goblin units. I think they would look pretty good in an all Black Orc army. Snotlings dont count to the minimum core requirements.

Black and Night , Strong and Weak , Big and Small...... It just perfect!:P

Thats my plan though, currently building an all Night Goblin army but with those new plastic Black Orcs coming I just cant resist adding some of those mean bad orcs who pick on those tiny mushroom eating Gobbos.

By using 4 special slot, fully equipt, 20 strong Black Orc units you already spent like 1272 points. Add 4 Black Orc characters and your well over 2000 points. It sounds cool and mean.... But does it win any games?

BLAH

TheWarSmith
17-04-2007, 18:02
I'd probably have 2 20 man blocks, and 2 10 man blocks for flanking.

I wouldn't have that many characters, as I don't think a predominantly black orc force would need them as much.

Vattendroppe
17-04-2007, 18:16
what are the orcish core choices? is it just savage, regular orc, night goblin, goblin, snotling?

If so, I suppose I could have orc Arrer boys for my core and fill up the fighting ranks with black orcs, then have 2 giants.

I think so, yes...

I'd still vote for the hobgobbos as core ^^

TheWarSmith
17-04-2007, 18:41
how would i make hobgoblins?

I'd love to make a heavily armoured "black giant". Obviously it wouldn't have armour in game, but it would just look cool. Not really sure how i'd do that, as I'm not skilled with plasticard use.

Vattendroppe
17-04-2007, 18:46
how would i make hobgoblins?

I don't know if there are any typical look of the GW hobgoblin, but I've personally just imagined them as goblins with small horns and brown clothing.

TheWarSmith
17-04-2007, 18:56
are regular(non night) goblins even worth considering anymore?

Obviously there's such an emphasis on night gobbos since they're so cheap due to BFSP.

neko_katan
17-04-2007, 19:57
I don't know if there are any typical look of the GW hobgoblin, but I've personally just imagined them as goblins with small horns and brown clothing.

the hobgobbos ARE ALREADY in the GW fluff, as seen by miniatures already relesed for them...are kinda asian gobbos who are taller than a gobbo but shorter than an ork...they have cool storyline stuff behind 'em too somewheres..

http://www.gildia.pl/teksty/skolo/druzyny/hobgoblin/*w/120/

yay google image search :D

granted...they were part of the chaos dwarves..who have gone from looking cool with a very distinct look...to...looking like...normal dwarves with human-chaos-esque armor (the hellcannon crew)..so the hobs could be re-imagined at some point i suppose...but their already done-look makes them look nice and distict from other green-skinned breeds...

Vattendroppe
17-04-2007, 20:11
the hobgobbos ARE ALREADY in the GW fluff, as seen by miniatures already relesed for them...are kinda asian gobbos who are taller than a gobbo but shorter than an ork...they have cool storyline stuff behind 'em too somewheres..

I know that hobgobbos are already in the GW fluff, I just didn't know how they look. I also thought it would be a cool idea, since IIRC the Blorcs are from the time time of chaos dwarfes and they somehow stuck togehter.

Shimmergloom
17-04-2007, 22:13
what are the orcish core choices? is it just savage, regular orc, night goblin, goblin, snotling?

If so, I suppose I could have orc Arrer boys for my core and fill up the fighting ranks with black orcs, then have 2 giants.

Orcs
Big'un Orcs 0-1
Savage Orcs
Big'Un Savage Orcs 0-1
Orc Arrez
Goblins
Night Goblins
Goblin Wolfriders
Forest Goblin Spider-Riders
Snotlings(do not count towards core minimum)

TheWarSmith
17-04-2007, 23:46
Well, perhaps using ALL my specials on black orcs wouldn't be feasible. What if I used 2-3 units of black orcs, an orc big'un unit(made to look like blorcs), and an orc chariot(are they 2 for 1?)

3-4 units of arrer boys to maybe widdle the enemy down?

monkeyboyalpha
18-04-2007, 01:18
If you wanna try an all Blorc list then it's simple, all your special choices on Blorcs.

To flesh out the core requirements take wolf riders with shortbows for some speedy speedy sneaky sneaky and take some compulsary night gobbos for a few little spinny surprises.

Don't waste lots of points on M4 arrer boyz as they wont do as well as you hope (mine haven't been so hot so far), remember, 1 of 3 things will happen, they will pass animosity and you will shoot with them, or they will either squabble or surge forward, either way, it will reduce the already not so good ability of orc archers.

The wolf riders are good for all the things you can do with them, plus the night gobbos are decent for the nets and fanatics, if you don't want any night gobbos stick with core requirements as wolf riders.

If you're trying to emulate Grimgor's SOC orc boyz then all Blorcs, Blorc characters, giants or trolls, and if you want some artillery then put an orc bully with them painted to be a Blorc (hell, even give the bully Blorc stats but no armed to da teef)



MBA

Dasqueek-Master Assassin
18-04-2007, 01:33
well what about arrer boys as core, or maybe some night goblin units (which I personally like better than the arrer boys.) The night goblins, with their lone scoll caddy sorcorer, seem like they got 'recruited' to fight for the black orks (who would also keep down their animosity). Then as your specials 3 big units of black orks and one unit of orks on boars (converted with bigger boars[maybe the one from the warboss sprue for each] to carry their non existent black armor) Then two giants armed to da teef...
maybe the above mentioned sorcorer, a back ork warboss on a wyvren,a bsb black ork on foot, and a big boss on a boar...

Shimmergloom
18-04-2007, 03:00
If you want to go all orc. Then maybe 3 small 'bait' units of 10 orcs. They are actually cheaper than goblin bait units and they won't panic your black orcs.

You can also throw in a big'un unit of orcs. And maybe Ironguts for your 2nd rare choice as sort of big'un black orcs.

Also both orc chariots and goblin chariots are 1 per special. But you can put an orc character of any type in a chariot as a mount and it won't count as a special.

TheWarSmith
18-04-2007, 03:40
I like the irongut idea, as I can see black orcs respecting the ferocity of ironguts.

I'd like SOME variety, so I wouldn't want 4 units of black orcs. Maybe some black orc boar boys(as biguns)

how many points is a black orc? I'll be taking a look at the book this weekend.

JT-Y
18-04-2007, 06:41
Sorry, being dense and asking because its easier than looking for myself...

Why doesn't the 'Ard Boyz list work with the new army book? What in particular doesn't fit?

TheWarSmith
18-04-2007, 13:27
I think it's just more of that new army books aren't "backwards compatible", so designers aren't going to think of all past army lists and variants when building the newest army book.

Personally, I think they should include it in the new book with changes for 7th. It doesn't look like an Ard boys list would really play ANY differently, but i dunno.

Maybe I'll ask my buddies I game with if i can use the SoC list with the new book.

truthsayer
18-04-2007, 16:50
Warsmith, go for two 20 orc blocks of black orcs, add grimgor to one of em. have your core as a couple of 10 orc arrer boys. have a block of normal orcs with a bsb with spirit totem. some wolf riders, a unit of squig hoppers. some ironguts, a giant and a sprinkling of whatever else you fancy. should do quite well without the need for the old book.

Grimgor's in charge, the immortals, black orcs and giant are the fighters. with some other stuff for harassing, magic defence, and flankers. best of both worlds then.. just a thought anyway..

TheWarSmith
18-04-2007, 16:56
That looks like a pretty nice list.

Definitely gets the feel across. I probably wouldn't take grimgor in my "regular" list, as I'm not a huge fan of "common special characters", but I'd probably use the model(cause it's just um....awesome)?

Are orc chariots 2 for 1 special?

truthsayer
18-04-2007, 17:07
Are orc chariots 2 for 1 special?

Im afraid not my friend. You could put a black orc big boss in a chariot though, that way you get the extra move from the waaagh too! nasty.

If you dont fancy using Grimgor, try a black orc warboss, akkrit axe, iron gnashas, best boss' at, enchanted shield, boar, heavy armour.

thats a 1+ save, 5+ ward, 4 s5 reroll attacks with killing blow, s6 in first turn.

thats enough to make up for grimgor methinks.

do you play 2000 or 2250?

pm me your list when you've written it. id like a look

TheWarSmith
18-04-2007, 17:21
We tend to play both.

If i could ask a favour, could you print up an army list for me? I don't have the army book and greatuncleanone.com isn't up to date for orcs.

DesertDirge
18-04-2007, 17:59
I also thought of doing a list like this...

Blorc General
2 units of twenty Blorcs
2 Giants (looking all armored up)

The rest Goblins and wolfriders.

My biggest issue was the characters.

TheWarSmith
18-04-2007, 18:12
I was thinking blorc big boss, blorc hero, and 2 gobbo shamans. Only problem is that's a LOT of characters.

Shimmergloom
18-04-2007, 18:56
Here's a quick list I made up that's black orc heavy.

1. warlord
Ironback boar, akkrit axe, boss 'at.
Heavy armor.

2. black orc bsb
boar, heavy armor
mork's totem

3. black orc big boss
heavy armor
battle brew

4. Orc Shaman
dispel scroll, lvl 2

5. 25 orcs w/shields and Full command

6. 3 x 10 orcs

7. 2 x 10 orc arrez

8. 2 x 20 black orcs w/shields
standard/musician
Give one unit a 25pt banner or some sort.

9. 2 x orc chariots

10. 2 x 3 Big'un Black Orcs(Ogre Ironguts)
Bellowers

Total: 2194

Enough spare points to upgrade a irongut unit to a giant, or add in a wolfrider unit by taking an orc out or make other minor adjustments to a 2250pt. list.

Inkosi
19-04-2007, 14:11
actually i dont see any current rules in 7th edition O&G armybook that would conflict with Grimgor's list.

so logically speaking, the list should still be working, but with GW, you never know. and because Grimgor's list is quite powerful, taking the powered up BLOrcs of 7th with them might prove abit over-powering.

TheWarSmith
19-04-2007, 15:51
Exactly. Grimgor's list isn't exactly kosher with the new book because black orcs got SOOOO much better.

UltimateNagash
19-04-2007, 17:48
For the Giant why not use the TK Bone Giant? They've got kinda of the right size armour... They just beat it up a little :D

TheWarSmith
19-04-2007, 17:56
honestly, cause that thing looks like ****, in my opinion.

I think it'd be easier to armour plate a regular plastic giant.

armed to da teef means that they have 2 hand weapons, a shield, and a great weapon, right? This is in addition to heavy armour. Can they choose what weapons they use each combat phase or are they stuck w/ whatever they choose till combat is over?

Sherlocko
19-04-2007, 19:08
Shield is optional and cost extra, but other than that you are correct AFAIK.

UltimateNagash
19-04-2007, 21:13
"At the start of each combat"... Whatever that means...

TheWarSmith
19-04-2007, 21:20
can you give me the complete quote?

UltimateNagash
19-04-2007, 21:27
"At the start of each combat, a unit of Black Orcs can choose to either with single choppa (in case they have shields), two choppas or with a great weapon."
Then it just has the character bit...

TheWarSmith
19-04-2007, 21:38
so how many points is a blorc w/ shield? seems rather dumb to take them w/out shields unless the shields cost 3+ points each, and i'm guessing they're only 1 point each, MAYBE 2.

UltimateNagash
19-04-2007, 21:41
Unit of 10 = 130. No shields
Unit of 10 = 140. Shields
Work out the exact cost yourself (to avoid saying points costs etc ;))

TheWarSmith
19-04-2007, 22:23
How many should a blorc unit be to be effective, but not an over the top point sink?

20?

Shimmergloom
20-04-2007, 02:49
Exactly. Grimgor's list isn't exactly kosher with the new book because black orcs got SOOOO much better.

If by better you mean they are much worse, then yeah.

You have to choose at the start of the combat and use that weapon all through the combat.

Black orcs effectively went up 3pts in price, come with a worthless special rule and lost their quell animosity special rule.

They are by no means better. Also the boss lost a point of strength and went up 5pts in cost.

Multifarious
20-04-2007, 09:25
They did on the other hand gain Waaargh, which is quite a nice advantage.

TheWarSmith
20-04-2007, 12:45
oh yeah, black orcs can still waagh huh? they just don't have that animosity thing, right?

UltimateNagash
20-04-2007, 13:02
Only characters have Quell Animosity, and that's only when they're in the unit...

TheWarSmith
20-04-2007, 13:33
but black orc units don't have animosity outside of using your once per game waaaaagh!!!!, right?

UltimateNagash
20-04-2007, 14:32
Yep.......

Multifarious
20-04-2007, 17:35
Another nice advantage is that a black orc boss in a chariot (which doesn't take a special choice) always Waarghs, which is rather nice. Also Black Orcs are immune to Orc and Squig panic, as well as Goblin, so a lot of potential baiters.

HeraldOfTheFree
20-04-2007, 17:54
Nooo! Dont take Gobbos! You want an 'Ard Boyz list. Take Big 'Uns and Orcs as core, Black Orc characters, Black Orcs as Special and a Giant as Rare. If Stone Throwers are Rare take them aswell.

DesertDirge
20-04-2007, 18:29
why no Gobos?

TheWarSmith
20-04-2007, 18:53
Nooo! Dont take Gobbos! You want an 'Ard Boyz list. Take Big 'Uns and Orcs as core, Black Orc characters, Black Orcs as Special and a Giant as Rare. If Stone Throwers are Rare take them aswell.

stone throwers and bolt throwers are special. doom divers, giants, pump wagons, and trolls are rare.

problem is that all the warmachines are gobbo crewed. You could overcome that w/ a black orc beating them into submission.

I'd love to have a black orc with boar boys, but that's a REALLY dumb move.

Shimmergloom
21-04-2007, 00:31
1 free move a game, which has just as much potential to be bad for you(if there are bait units nearby that you have to move towards, instead of what you want to move towards and now you're suddenly presenting a flank to the enemy) does not make up for black orcs losing quell and getting a crappy special rule that just bumps them up in price 3pts.

I'd much rather pay 11pts for black orcs w/choppa and shield than 14pts for a bunch of crap I'll likely not want to use half the time.

I know who I'm going to play, if I want great weapons, I'd buy them. Instead I'm forced to take them even if I'm playing weedy elves or skaven.

Multifarious
21-04-2007, 01:26
Shimmer all I can remember about you posting about O&G is that you were entirely negative. They did get worse in some ways, but better in others.

Worse.
-Lost quell, which probably isn't an issue for a black orc heavy army.
-If you want to run them with less equipment then you no longer can.
-Boss got worse.

Apart from quell loss that doesn't seem to be too bad.

Better.
-I cannot believe you haven't mentioned this (and started humping the desk) but choppas improved. You always have a first turn strength 5 weapon, either with two str5 attacks each and 5+ saves, or one str5 attack with 3+ saves. Given that before you would choose between two str4 attacks (didn't work with 2xHW) and 5+, or one str5 attack (if you actually manage to charge) and a 4+ save. You not pointing this out seems a mite strange.
-Waargh for any Black Orc Units, and Black Orc Characters on their own (or chariot, boar etc). I don't understand your comment regarding:

"1 free move a game, which has just as much potential to be bad for you(if there are bait units nearby that you have to move towards, instead of what you want to move towards and now you're suddenly presenting a flank to the enemy)"

Given that unless you were already within 6 inches of an enemy unit the chances of this having a bad effect are probably nil, and even if you are it seems unlikely that you would be within 6 inches, and still call waaargh. I don't see how it has just as much chance of going wrong as right. You can still move normally as well, so if you want to move anyway you can almost certainly still move there, only really going full ahead backwards is affected.
-The unit is now 5+ rather than 10+, not a big one but still.
-If you wanted to give your units fully equipped (not impossible) then it works out cheaper than it would in 6th.
-Black orcs are no longer 0-1.
-With the price rise of Big'uns Black Orcs are now relatively better.

Overall I would say that the Black Orcs have improved. Meh. If you really want the old ones then a Big'un with shield works out as slightly cheaper and better than the old black orc apart from animosity.

Harry
21-04-2007, 04:49
Take wolf riding hobgoblins as core. (Oglah Khans wolf boyz)

Upside:
1)Fluffy.
2)Great minis. That look suitably armoured to sit along side the Blorks.
3)Gives you some missile capability and speed your Blorks lack.

Downside:
1)They will cost you an arm and a leg.

Heretic Burner
21-04-2007, 05:31
BO are absolutely dreadful this edition, making an army out of them is plain lunacy. Sure you could make an army out of one of the worst units in one of the worst army books but why? If you really must include them then at least look to play high point games (3K+). Absolutely garbage in anything less than that with the added disadvantage of taking away from you already precious special choices.

So assuming you follow the advice and are playing large games where the focus of force that BO provide might have some very minor benefit then at least support them with light cavalry. An all orc army is absolutely ghastly in this edition, the lack of any speed whatsoever is crippling. Amazingly enough BO are some of your fastest infantry(!) compared to infantry subject to animosity but they are still dreadfully slow.

In an age of cavalryhammer your BO won't survive without goblins...period. Vastly overpriced boar boyz simply won't do especially the savage boyz who can't flee. Unless you can expect the playing board to be absolutely covered in terrain large blocks of vastly overpriced, unperforming infantry really ain't going to do it.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
21-04-2007, 05:37
I field three black orc units, three orc units, a giant, three trolls and 2 spear chukkas.

Suprisingly it actually wins games

TheWarSmith
21-04-2007, 06:34
i REALLY don't understand what's up with the hate or the new OG book. It seems pretty cool overall. I like that they got rid of the restriction on how to get +1S on the charge, and instead said "you get it anyway/anyweapon/etc". Black orcs got much better in that way.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
21-04-2007, 07:57
Basically they made goblin armies worse (no more extra heroes for goblin armies, point increase) and made the basic orc too good, the boar boyz too expensive

Lord_Byron
21-04-2007, 08:52
Hi Warsmith and others.

Hopefully this thread will remain on topic, otherwise blame it on the Jack Daniels and not me.

As far as hate for the new orc book.

Allow me to say that the new army book pulled me into collecting an orc army, and also relate an anecdote that speaks positively about some of the new orcy rules.

I was playing a three player battle with orcs against wood elves and dwarfs. Already you can imagine that this is not a happy place for greenskins to be in. Now the wood elf player defies all expectations and takes a wood elf lord instead of an archmage with the wand of wytch elm. He has the kindred which makes him a forest spirit and joins some treekin. This unit deploys close to me. What happens? The wood elves go first and move to roll my flank. I have a unit of savage orc boar boyz close to the wood elf deployment zone, I roll for animosity and get a 6. This puts me into charge range, and due to frenzy I must charge. I allocate as many attacks on the wood elf lord as i can, and do 2 wounds to him. The savage boar boyz are beaten and the wood elfs choose to pursue. This brings them into range of a fanatic toting night goblin regiment. The fanatic hurls 11 inches out, and because the treekin constitute less than 5 rank and file models, the 'distributed as shooting' fanatic hits are split amongst the unit and the lord. This results in one dead lord and a dead treekin. That's an enemy general dead in turn one, and it was completely due to the random work ethic of the orc army. It's a rare example, but it goes to show that the number one gripe of orc and goblin players, the new animosity rules, can work for you instead of against you.

Now onto the subject of black orcs... I like them. I like their background, and I like their rules. An army predicated upon a concept of black orcs is going to be an army that consistently takes other infantry based armies by surprise and occasionally catches cavalry based armies flat flooted. I love the fact that black orcs get an automatic we'll show 'em result on the waaagh!, and I especially love that they ignore animosity. I'd say to forgo 'ard boyz fluff for the moment and to fill out your core choices with spider and wolf riders. *whoah, I just got a naked hug from my chick. Bully to posting drunk at 2am.* One of the biggest advantages of playing OnG is busting out tons of core fast cav. Also, spider riders are a dime a dozen thanks to BfSP, and I like them better than wolf riders because large orc (or Black Orc) infantry units take up alot of table, and the spider riders ability to negotiate difficult terrain balances that unfortunate fact out of the equation.

Alot of people think that armed to da teef is a detriment. I don't think so. I really like having that versatility. That's just me.

Anyway, I think the modeling/painting aspects of fronting a bunch of black orcs would be really fun to put together. Black orc bullies and black orc boar boar boyz big 'uns would be really fun to construct and paint, not to mention just seeing on the table. I totally think you should go for it, with a clean perception that you're not playing any kind of handicapped list.

:D

Multifarious
21-04-2007, 11:21
It's unfortunate for GW. If it releases a new book that is more powerful than others its powercreep. If it releases a new book that is perfectly balanced, but the old book was underpowered then its powercreep. If the new book is (or ANYTHING in it) is weaker than the old one then it is "OMG THEY TEH NERFZORS ORKS AND GOB!oneeleven". I really don't think GW can actually win with many people. I also like the "Fortunately I don't play or collect anymore" people who spend hours in forums dedicated to the game. Sorry for that rant.

Alternatively, if you were unsure as to whether or not to have black orcs you could always use normal orcs, but kitbash in a lot of black orc parts, see how that looks. It may give the impression of black orcs, but allow you to just use normal core orcs for the role.

Avian
21-04-2007, 14:35
I really don't think GW can actually win with many people.
Well, if employ second-rate writers who don't actually play the army and do insufficient play testing then it is a fair guess that something will be messed up, innit?
:p

Shimmergloom
21-04-2007, 15:00
Worse.
-Lost quell, which probably isn't an issue for a black orc heavy army.
-If you want to run them with less equipment then you no longer can.
-Boss got worse.

Apart from quell loss that doesn't seem to be too bad.

Better.
-I cannot believe you haven't mentioned this (and started humping the desk) but choppas improved. You always have a first turn strength 5 weapon, either with two str5 attacks each and 5+ saves, or one str5 attack with 3+ saves. Given that before you would choose between two str4 attacks (didn't work with 2xHW) and 5+, or one str5 attack (if you actually manage to charge) and a 4+ save. You not pointing this out seems a mite strange.
-Waargh for any Black Orc Units, and Black Orc Characters on their own (or chariot, boar etc). I don't understand your comment regarding:

"1 free move a game, which has just as much potential to be bad for you(if there are bait units nearby that you have to move towards, instead of what you want to move towards and now you're suddenly presenting a flank to the enemy)"

Given that unless you were already within 6 inches of an enemy unit the chances of this having a bad effect are probably nil, and even if you are it seems unlikely that you would be within 6 inches, and still call waaargh. I don't see how it has just as much chance of going wrong as right. You can still move normally as well, so if you want to move anyway you can almost certainly still move there, only really going full ahead backwards is affected.
-The unit is now 5+ rather than 10+, not a big one but still.
-If you wanted to give your units fully equipped (not impossible) then it works out cheaper than it would in 6th.
-Black orcs are no longer 0-1.
-With the price rise of Big'uns Black Orcs are now relatively better.

Overall I would say that the Black Orcs have improved. Meh. If you really want the old ones then a Big'un with shield works out as slightly cheaper and better than the old black orc apart from animosity.

What are you even talking about? Only within 6 inches? huh?

If you have a bait unit off centered from you like 6 inches away and you have to wheel to move towards it, even if you only move 4 inches and don't hit the unit, you have still wheeled away from the unit that is at your front and was 8 inches away.

So you say you just choose to charge the bait unit. Great, they flee and now your flank is to the 8 inch away unit who will charge it next turn.

As for your positives:

1. ALL ORCS got better choppas. It's wrong to mention how black orcs got better choppas when 5pt orc choppas are just as good. I can get 2 orcs w/shields for 1 black orc w/shield and have 2pts to spare.

There's nothing a unit of black orcs can do, that 2 units of orcs can't do better.

2. 5+ size just makes the unit easier to panic and spread panic through all your other greenskins nearby when the unit is wiped out in one turn.

3. Not 0-1 doesn't help when you can't afford to field more than one unit.

4. Black orcs went up 3pts. big'uns went up 2pts. Big'uns are just as bad as black orcs vs orcs and savages, so this is just a wash as to which to field.

Another of your points:

-If you want to run them with less equipment then you no longer can.

And this is the crux of the new book. This is why the book is so hated.

Almost EVERYTHING went up in price. When people say, 'oh goblins only went up 1pt, get over it'.

They didn't just go up one point and lose their shield.

1. Night goblins went up 1pt.
2. Fanatics got worse and stayed the same cost.
3. Wolfriders went up 2pts.
4.Savages went up 2pts(maybe 1 pt if you always took warpaint anyway).
5. Black orcs went up 3pts.
6. Both orc and savage boar boyz went up 4pts.
7. Both big'un orc and big'un savage orcs went up 2 more points(4 total points in the case of the savages who core unit went up 2pts). And savages lost their magical standard.
8. Boar boyz and savage boar boyz of the big'un variety went up 4 more points, with the original 4pt addition, that's 8pts per model they were increased.
9. River trolls went up 5pts.

That's several units that all went up in price.

Plus black orc characters went up in price and orc fighty characters went up in price.

The only units that went down in price.

1. snotlings, which lost unbreakable and went down 5 whole points.
2. wolf chariots went down 3pts, but lost 2 for 1.
3. Normal trolls went down 10pts.
4. Night goblin shamans went down 5pts, but lost their mushrooms.
5. savage orc characters get free warpaint.

Is it any wonder that the best unit we have other than normal orcs are squig hoppers, who hadn't been their own unit since 4th edition?

If they existed as a unit in 6th, they'd probably be 30pts each now.

TheWarSmith
21-04-2007, 17:12
fanatics NEEDED to be toned down. The no armour save thing was rediculous. As is, it's -3, which is pretty strong.

yes, blorcs went up 3 points, but it's basically just forcing you to buy all the equipment. Honestly, I rather like it, because if it weren't that way, the new plastic blorcs might not have been the way they are.

Wolfriders did need a point increase. They're some of THE best fast cav in the game.

Multifarious
21-04-2007, 20:50
I had a really long post, but got somehow logged out. Here it is in brief.

Fanatics did improve in some ways, any unit stopping on them takes 2d6 hits followed by F's death. Also you can do several clever things with the new ability of choosing where they are released from in the unit, sending them through from the back to make it very likely chargers will land on them and take a beating. You said black orcs got worse, not relatively worse. I gave ways they got better. They do have uses, but as an elite reliable unit in an unelite unreliable army they do have some, representing quite a compact unit that has the ability to survive without a character. Given that the O&G army as a whole is quite low on space they can not be all bad. Given that the one free move is WHEN YOU CHOOSE IT TO BE then I do not see your problem with it. Going to get flanked if you do it? Do not do it then. Do not stick parts of your body in the wall sockets either, despite your ability to. The 5+ unit size and lack of 0-1 choice all give you more options, something you can hardly say is a disadvantage. It may not be much of one, but still is.