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2_heads_talking
17-04-2007, 20:29
I haven't really followed the Dark Angels releases that closely, so imagine my surprise whilst having a quick flick through the latest White Dwarf that I saw Sammael, the lastest Dark Angels Master of the Ravenwing, riding what looks suspiciously like a jetbike.

Is this actually the case, however, or is this just a really smooth (and one-manned) landspeeder?

Sorry if this sounds a remarkably dumb question to ask, but if they've brought back Imperial jetbikes then that means they may even get around to adding them to Imperial armies, something that I thought most people didn't agree with background-wise. :confused:

Bob5000
17-04-2007, 20:31
I think it is meant to be the only Imperial Jetbike

CherryMan
17-04-2007, 20:43
yea like, da are the masters of forbiden tecnology... thus having one of the few remaning imperial jetbikes sounds cinda cool.

Leftenant Gashrog
17-04-2007, 21:04
its also probably a nod to RT fluff: back when the vanilla marine list included jetbikes, Ravenwing were noted as being deployed entirely jetbike mounted (tho if memory serves Ravenwing was the 7th company instead of 2nd)

Feor
17-04-2007, 21:07
It is a jetbike, but it's supposed to be a carefully maintained relic dating back to the Horus Heresy, I believe. So the chance of jetbike mounted guardsmen making an appearance (outside of convereted roughriders or the VDR) isn't terribly likely.

sigur
17-04-2007, 21:49
yea like, da are the masters of forbiden tecnology...

Who ever said that? I think some guys on Mars wouldn't agree with you there.;)

Basically, the difference between an imperial jetbike and a Land Speeder is the size and the number of antigrav engines.

Baneboss
17-04-2007, 22:04
Imperium doesnt have STC design to produce more Jetbikes. Jetbikes are alien exclusive technology now. Alien tech is heretical.

sigur
17-04-2007, 22:21
Yet, if you happen to own one of the last imperial Jetbikes, it's a sacred relic eventhough it doesn't work half as well as an Eldar or Dark Eldar one. That's the immense hypocrisy that makes the Imperium even more charming/repulsive.:)

Krog Ironclaw
18-04-2007, 19:10
yea like, da are the masters of forbiden tecnology... thus having one of the few remaning imperial jetbikes sounds cinda cool.
Who ever said that? I think some guys on Mars wouldn't agree with you there.;)

Basically, the difference between an imperial jetbike and a Land Speeder is the size and the number of antigrav engines.

The Codex says (somewhere, I'll try and get a page number) that the DA and their successor Chapters have the last Jetbikes for the Masters of their Ravenwing/Ravenwing equivilents. It doesn't say that all of them have it though, and it was most likely only stated so that one could justify having "Sammael-Lookalike 7493" in a Deciples of Caliban army.

sigur
18-04-2007, 20:27
Well, yeah, sure. Just wait until they release any Adeptus Mechanicus-related lists. I'm pretty sure they'll "have the last few Jetbikes" then.;)

Krog Ironclaw
19-04-2007, 00:03
Well, yeah, sure. Just wait until they release any Adeptus Mechanicus-related lists. I'm pretty sure they'll "have the last few Jetbikes" then.;)

Of course, they have everything!

They'll probably get some archaic peice of machinery unique to them though.

What other stuff (small things mind you, no bigger than a tank) did the Imperium have during the Crusade and Heresy that are now lost to time?

RavenMorpheus
21-04-2007, 04:27
The new Master of the Ravenwing model was done for 3 reasons:

1 - The old one on the landspeeder looked rubbish

2 - $, new model, more money.

3 - He's now a proper IC rather than a vehicle with a special bloke who didn't
really do much in the game.

HiveFleetEzekial
21-04-2007, 04:39
He's not an IC though.

He used to be a really effective way of character/target sniping, with his drive-by raven sword attack. All one had to do was make sure the target was the only thing in close enough range.

He lost that abbility, but got some other fairly cool ones in place of it.

RavenMorpheus
21-04-2007, 04:49
He's not an IC though.

He used to be a really effective way of character/target sniping, with his drive-by raven sword attack. All one had to do was make sure the target was the only thing in close enough range.

He lost that abbility, but got some other fairly cool ones in place of it.

So if he's not an IC what unit does he lead as standard?

I always thought a character on their own was classed as an IC?

devolutionary
21-04-2007, 04:53
Nope, he's a unit of 1. You need to be classified as an independent character in order to be an independent character. Think of him as a Tau Crisis Suit unit that has a maximum squad size of 1.

RavenMorpheus
21-04-2007, 04:55
Nope, he's a unit of 1. You need to be classified as an independent character in order to be an independent character. Think of him as a Tau Crisis Suit unit that has a maximum squad size of 1.

Ok, another dumb rule?! I stand corrected on point 3, point one 1 still stands, point 2 is probably me being cynical.

devolutionary
21-04-2007, 05:01
You would be correct on point 1 and 2, but there's nothing wrong with making more money, we are the ones buying it after all ;)

RavenMorpheus
21-04-2007, 05:02
Yeah I don't get that unit of 1 rule, he's a special character so why not make him an IC in the same way as an SM commander on a SM bike? Something wrong there IMO. Works fine with Tau crisis suits, Nid Biovores and such units because they're not meant to be characters, just doesn't seem right for a special character. They might as well say all IC's are a unit of 1?!

Ho hum - I'll probably buy the model when I ressurect my DA army, even though it seems stupid fluff wise.

BodhiTree
21-04-2007, 05:11
Well, maybe it's late, but I can't remember many other vehicle mounted characters - I think they're rare enough for some wiggle room.

On the aesthetic side of things, I like the model for its weight. It's rather hefty, perhaps even Warjack hefty. :)

RavenMorpheus
21-04-2007, 05:14
Well, maybe it's late, but I can't remember many other vehicle mounted characters - I think they're rare enough for some wiggle room.

On the aesthetic side of things, I like the model for its weight. It's rather hefty, perhaps even Warjack hefty. :)

Good for chucking at someone if you don't like them then lol :-) At least the model has one good use. I can't see anytime I'd use it n an DA army, I don't field Ravenwing armies.

As for Guard or anyone else having them I very much doubt it, they're relics, no-ones back engineered them (not intelligent enough to do that are they) and there's only a few of them left according to the fluff?!

HiveFleetEzekial
21-04-2007, 05:27
So, if you were ever going up against a DA force that includes Sammael, you would *want* to face a 'fast' moving unit, that already has higher than normal T, an Inv. save, is immune to ID, AND has a plasma cannon.. all of which you wouldn't be able to target?

He's not an IC, for balance.

RavenMorpheus
21-04-2007, 05:31
So why are SM commanders on bikes still IC's then? Same diff. apart from the plasma cannon anyway.

HiveFleetEzekial
21-04-2007, 05:37
"Bikes" also have to go through terrain if it's in their way, or go around it. Jetbikes, can just go over it all. So Sammael can just avoid most of the obstacles on the way to his target. Normal characters that just get a regular bike have to eithr risk going through, or take longer to go around it.

And yes, the PC is a major bit of it. What other character out there totes around something that powerful (or any othre heavy weapon, and doesn't have some sort of odd 'balance' in it's rules?)

RavenMorpheus
21-04-2007, 05:40
Yeah well, I still think it's weird. But hey ho, that's the way they've done him, so that's the way we have to use him.

Having the PC is over the top anyway, like the rest of the model, they should have just stuck him on a bike and left us with the option of having him on a landspeeder. Been better that way and they could have still done a new model for the biker version.

BrainFireBob
21-04-2007, 07:10
He's also a scoring unit and was given *both* an adamantite mantle and Iron Halo- chicken and egg which came first, having both mantle and halo, or losing IC status. Either way, he's always in posession of a 4+ save minimum in addition to the fact he can't be instant-killed, which is one of the only real benefits of the IC rule anyway- after all, being his own unit in CC is a characteristic he retains, he doesn't need to worry about difficult terrain tests, and I believe he retains Rites of Battle.

Bookwrak
21-04-2007, 07:32
You _can_ put him in a Landspeeder. Can't you?

Ronin_eX
21-04-2007, 08:27
Yup and it has AV 14 on the front and side facings. Ain't it great to be DA? ;)

Bookwrak
21-04-2007, 08:36
Actually, shouldn't it be, 'Ain't it great to be master of the RW?'

Col.Gravis
21-04-2007, 08:52
While I'm sure it would have been alot natier had he been an IC I've gota say he's still one nasty character, at least his low attacks means unsupported speaking as a Guard player he's unlikely to be able to cut through more then a couple of squads unless your careless - however the fact he's a scoring unit is very unpalettable to me, its like have a skimming landraider in terms of points getting into a deployment zone in say Recon.

Grymlok
21-04-2007, 10:30
AV14 on the sides and front! That is one tough flying scooter. I'm glad though, as it sounds like the rules are matching the model- which is one of the best for loyalist Marines i've seen in a ages.

It's actually one of those that I'm considering purchasing just so I can paint it up.

WLBjork
21-04-2007, 10:45
Well, maybe it's late, but I can't remember many other vehicle mounted characters - I think they're rare enough for some wiggle room.

You got me thinking now.

Off-hand, I can think of:

Wazzdakka Gutsmeg (Ork biker), definately 2nd ed, and I'm pretty sure he made 3rd ed.
Bjork Fell-Handed (Space Wolves 2nd edn., appeared in a proto-Chapter Approved article at the start of 3rd ed.)
Umm, can't think of the name but the Dark Eldar character (Vect?)

Can't think of one for any other army off-hand.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
21-04-2007, 13:16
as to the general issue of working out if a model is an IC or simply a unit of 1 model, see the last line on p87/264 of the rulebook.

as to Sammael not being an IC (and this is pure speculation on my part), wasnt it so he:
- could be targetted (hard not to be able to pick out the only Jetbike in the chapter...)
- couldnt join units (see above)
- was a Scoring Unit (valuable bike, powerful model)?

~ Tim

Slaaneshi Slave
21-04-2007, 13:26
You got me thinking now.

Off-hand, I can think of:

Wazzdakka Gutsmeg (Ork biker), definately 2nd ed, and I'm pretty sure he made 3rd ed.
Bjork Fell-Handed (Space Wolves 2nd edn., appeared in a proto-Chapter Approved article at the start of 3rd ed.)
Umm, can't think of the name but the Dark Eldar character (Vect?)

Can't think of one for any other army off-hand.

Didn't Prince Yriel used to ride a Viper?
There is also Inquisitor Lord Karamazov, driving his almost dreadnought.

Killgore
21-04-2007, 13:52
I think its brilliant that Dark Angels get such a fluffy character that really stands out!

master of one of the most elite and specialised companys in the first of the first founding legions, riding most likly the last remaining Imperial jetbike using mystical technologys long since lost in the mists of time

GodofWarTx
21-04-2007, 18:28
Moriar the Chosen, a BA Special Character of awesomeness.

There was also Doomrider, of 2nd Edition Codex: Chaos fame.

Cheitan Shadowless
21-04-2007, 18:34
There was also Doomrider, of 2nd Edition Codex: Chaos fame.That was 3rd edition.

Not sure why I'm nitpicking on this, as it's hardly relevant. Must be old age. :(

bnf
21-04-2007, 21:40
What other stuff (small things mind you, no bigger than a tank) did the Imperium have during the Crusade and Heresy that are now lost to time?

Well according to the Eisenhorn trilogy, the Imperium used to have power swords that were like lightsabres from Star Wars - just a hilt and the blade would be projected from it. Then that tech got lost and now the power field is just projected around a "real" blade.
Don't know if that is canon though or if the author just thought it up for the books.

Darkangeldentist
21-04-2007, 21:48
While I'm sure it would have been alot natier had he been an IC I've gota say he's still one nasty character, at least his low attacks means unsupported speaking as a Guard player he's unlikely to be able to cut through more then a couple of squads unless your careless - however the fact he's a scoring unit is very unpalettable to me, its like have a skimming landraider in terms of points getting into a deployment zone in say Recon.

You were shaking your head a lot as you found out his various rules and abilities. Had he turned up earlier you may have taken a dimmer view of the situation.

He's a real jack of all trades on the bike. I've only recently gone back to my ravenwing army and so far have found him to be really good. Against marines he tends to hang back and shoot whilst against Guard and Tau he charges off into combat. The mediocre number of attacks is a pain when you compare his combat abilities against other marine heroes but he can still pull his weight. The fact he's a scoring unit goes a long way to mitigating his limited killing potential. One of the more indirect (yet influencial) benefits is the ability to achieve mission objectives which makes him amazingly useful in things like recon missions.

All in all he's great either as a flying landraider or on the jetbike. Which makes me all the sadder when I think about Belial and Ezekial.:( Who overall I think got a rather rougher deal.

Stella Cadente
21-04-2007, 23:04
Well according to the Eisenhorn trilogy, the Imperium used to have power swords that were like lightsabres from Star Wars - just a hilt and the blade would be projected from it. Then that tech got lost and now the power field is just projected around a "real" blade.
Don't know if that is canon though or if the author just thought it up for the books.

they most likely lost the STC on purpose, so as not to get SUED :D

Slaaneshi Slave
21-04-2007, 23:16
Eisenhorns powersword wasn't particularly like a light saber, it was cool as **** though. :p

bnf
22-04-2007, 00:04
Eisenhorns powersword wasn't particularly like a light saber, it was cool as **** though. :p

I'm not talking about Barbarisater, I'm talking about the one he loses in the first book, which was, unless I'm totally mistaken, described as only a beam of cohesive light.

RavenMorpheus
22-04-2007, 00:06
Sounds like a light saber to me? Quick someone call George Lucas.

Slaaneshi Slave
22-04-2007, 00:42
I'm not talking about Barbarisater, I'm talking about the one he loses in the first book, which was, unless I'm totally mistaken, described as only a beam of cohesive light.

I know. A light saber is a beam of light which stops a few feet from its source for some reason which is beyond me. The power sword he drops over the side of the harvester (or was that his navy pistol?) is an energy field, such as is used in power swords and fists.

Barbarisater is not his weapon, he stole it.

GodofWarTx
22-04-2007, 02:30
All in all he's great either as a flying landraider or on the jetbike. Which makes me all the sadder when I think about Belial and Ezekial.:( Who overall I think got a rather rougher deal.


Heh. If those two got a rough deal, i hate to see what you have to say about Asmodai =P

RavenMorpheus
22-04-2007, 02:33
Heh. If those two got a rough deal, i hate to see what you have to say about Asmodai =P

Does Asmodai actually still exist, I thought he was just a generic chaplain now?

corsair_01
23-04-2007, 04:03
good question i dont even think it mentions him at all in the codex!
but i think i heard some where that he died somehow in accordance with medusa v
please dont get angry because i have no idea if it is true or not jus something in the back of mind i might have heard some where

RavenMorpheus
23-04-2007, 04:13
please dont get angry because i have no idea if it is true or not jus something in the back of mind i might have heard some where

oooh that makes me so angry :mad: :D - why release a model only to "kill" the character off in a poxy self promoted campaign?

Still I can use the model for something else.

I think they've gone over the top with Sammael, he's way better than all the other DA characters and as far as I know there's no limit on size of army you can use him in, it's as cheesy as being able to take a bloodthirster in a 1500 point game, I should know I do it. :D

BodhiTree
23-04-2007, 04:14
Asmodai is not dead, there is a little story piece on page 85 of the new Codex, detailing the Blades of Reason, it says that he 'currently' has them. Veteran Sergeant Namaan (dead, dead, dead) and Brother Bethor are detailed in the pages before it, but none of them have been given rules in the book.

RavenMorpheus
23-04-2007, 04:17
Asmodai is not dead, there is a little story piece on page 85 of the new Codex, detailing the Blades of Reason, it says that he 'currently' has them. Veteran Sergeant Namaan (dead, dead, dead) and Brother Bethor are detailed in the pages before it, but none of them have been given rules in the book.

Ok, so if he's not dead where are the rules for him, that's a model with no rules, it's usually the other way around, rules without models? :wtf:

corsair_01
23-04-2007, 04:18
but why wouldnt they include him in the codex?
or re release his model?

BodhiTree
23-04-2007, 04:21
You've got me there. Asmodai used to be something of an icon for GW too. Perhaps we might see something pop up on the GW website for him.

RavenMorpheus
23-04-2007, 05:02
You've got me there. Asmodai used to be something of an icon for GW too. Perhaps we might see something pop up on the GW website for him.

Aha, another case of GW madness?

The brother bethor thing can be explained away as they've got the sacred DA standards (I'm assuming there still there) and brother bethor was just the guy who carried one, he was apart from that not much more than a basic standard bearer (I'll probably get flamed by fluffies for that now), but to get rid of Asmodai is just plain ridiculous.

Codices are getting like video games - each new version they take bits out and add bits - what's wrong with having the rules for miniatures representing characters that they released not too long ago, in terms of editions of codices as well as new and updated characters like Sammael?

HiveFleetEzekial
23-04-2007, 10:04
Asmodai is not dead, there is a little story piece on page 85 of the new Codex, detailing the Blades of Reason, it says that he 'currently' has them. Veteran Sergeant Namaan (dead, dead, dead) and Brother Bethor are detailed in the pages before it, but none of them have been given rules in the book.

That's a reprint of the rules for the BoR from his entry in the previous codex.

He is, currently, atleast due to some official fluff somewhere... (had a link a whle back but lost it) dead. Some dang chaos scum offed him. (there's even a pic of it, with the chaos guy standing over his body)

-edit- found the pic..
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b326/kiwi_geek/Scan0001.jpg

Stella Cadente
23-04-2007, 14:17
Maybe they got rid of his rules because they sucked, ans its easy to name your OWN damn Chaplain Asmodai, how can you miss someone who was really that bad, heck his wargear was all over the place, he had a power sword which is pointless since hes a chaplain. and no pistol even though moddled, and my old codex doesn't even mention his crozius.....POINTLESS

BodhiTree
23-04-2007, 15:42
That's a reprint of the rules for the BoR from his entry in the previous codex.

He is, currently, atleast due to some official fluff somewhere... (had a link a whle back but lost it) dead. Some dang chaos scum offed him. (there's even a pic of it, with the chaos guy standing over his body)

-edit- found the pic..
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b326/kiwi_geek/Scan0001.jpg Huh, neat. Although I first saw that picture without any context and figured that could be any Interrogator-Chaplain. Thanks for the picture. :)

BrainFireBob
23-04-2007, 18:26
Or maybe, as Jervis stated, they thought he was superfluous to include as an indie and they regret that now.

TheWarSmith
23-04-2007, 19:12
Personally I'm not a fan of the jetbike. It's an ok model, but I'm not a fan as it's a bit over the top.

Also, I'm not a HUGE fan of special characters, but as I've started a ravenwing army, i clearly have to use him, and I'd rather limit how "rare" my force is, and keep him on something that isn't UBER RARE.

Also, I wouldn't want my general being able to nuke himself w/ plasma.