PDA

View Full Version : Why do people hate space marines?



Druss the Legend
17-04-2007, 21:33
Why do people hate the SMs so much?

I was just wondering after having read numerous threads and knowing I am opening a massive can of worms here.

Will freely admit I have a SM army (as well as an IG and a Tau for you who want to yell) and just wanted to put forward a couple of points:

1. Fluff, Space Marines have some of the best there is (I do include CSMs in that)

2. They look awesome

3. Its just a game!!

(Considered opinions please no ranting, thnx)

Thommy H
17-04-2007, 21:40
Because they're the most cost-effective army in terms of both points and actual currency, as well as being the easiest to convert, the most forgiving army tactically and they also occupy a central position in the fluff, they're by a significant margin the most popular army.

This has the dual effect of them being used by many 'newbie' players (who tend to be the most competetive) as well as warping the metagame to make anything that can't take on Marines or MEQs comparatively ineffective in terms of 'pick up and play' games.

Me...I play against friends and don't care about popularity, so I don't feel in the least bit ashamed of all my Dark Angels.

knight of ne
17-04-2007, 21:42
two words:

Assault canons

seriously, they can take loads of them.

knight of ne-

Champsguy
17-04-2007, 21:44
1) Marines are the standard army choice for many beginners. So people in an area with a lot of new players may get sick of facing Marines all the time.

2) Marines sell the most, so GW puts out lots of stuff for Marines. A guy who plays Orks and hasn't had a new codex in 9 years feels slighted when Marines have had like 6 different Marine codexes come out in the meantime (DA 3rd, Space Wolves 3rd, Black Templars 3rd, SM 4th, Black Templars 4th, DA 4th, soon Blood Angels 4th WD article).

3) It's the cool thing to do. Your average 40K gamer is no different from your average person. If lots of people complain about Marines, it becomes "cool" to do so. Peer pressure. ;)

4) Marines get armor saves.

jfrazell
17-04-2007, 21:48
2 out of 3 people play marines? Familiarity breeds contempt?

The fact they are just plain unorky?

sigur
17-04-2007, 21:50
We have this question every week, use the search function and find quite a few discussions which led nowhere.

jfrazell
17-04-2007, 21:56
Don't be a buzzkill sigur, how can we have this question every week if you go and use the search function. Where's the fun in that?

Ktotwf
17-04-2007, 21:57
I can get why people would dislike the Marines. They are too "leet" and "cool." In terms of the actual game, from what I have heard they are about the best race to play with in terms of competition.

OTOH, I never even considered SM. I would play EVERY SINGLE other army before them. Most people who like the Guard (like me) like them because it takes alot more juevos to fight in a flaksuit with a lasgun then to be an uber-leet haxxor superhuman knight.

I don't even really like the background story to the SM. The whole Primarchs angle isn't that interesting.

Storywise though, the SM are probably the main reason the Imperium keeps winning and surviving in the galaxy consumed by Eternal War.

sigur
17-04-2007, 22:15
@jfrazell: I'm sorry, I didn't know that anyone actually took pleasure in talking about this quite destructive thing over and over again.

@Ktotwf: The Imperium isn't winning and in the long run, it won't surbvive. That's the interesting thing about it.

EvilGenius1
17-04-2007, 22:19
I'd guess it's because Marines are so easy to play, cheap to buy, and easy to paint.
Fluffwise, they're the best at everything, immature people want an armies of super killing machines, not a bunch of Guardsmen (as an example). Space Marines have a very cool theme and look amazing, I like the whole righteous fury thing.
Anyone who doesn't play Marines can't help but feel neglected, the sheer amount of attention and effort that go to Marines are sure to anger anyone left outside. The way I see it, it's almost like all of the other armies weren't created to add diversity, but just to give the Marines something to fight against. Does anyone know the sales percentages for Marines compared to others? Im curious...

jfrazell
17-04-2007, 22:30
Marines are GW's top selling line, of all lines.

Ktotwf
17-04-2007, 22:46
@Ktotwf: The Imperium isn't winning and in the long run, it won't surbvive. That's the interesting thing about it.

Not if GW has anything to say about it.

The point I was making anyway was that the Imperium keeps winning and surviving at the moment the story is set in now, because of the Space Marines.

Besides, I think people underestimate the Imperium anyway. It has a million Space Marines and countless countless trillions of Guardsmen. The institution of the Imperium in its specific embodiment now is surely doomed, but humanity as a race in WH40k is still the strongest of them all.

Too many fanboys are like "'Nids eat everyone! Necron win! Game over" It won't happen that way if the story advances, simply cause no one but Necron or Tyranid fanboys would like it, and GW doesn't make as much money from them as the IoM.

BrotherMoses
18-04-2007, 01:19
Because they fear above all else the Emperor's Space Marines! :skull:

As much fun as an end to the game where mankind comes out on top would be it ain't going to happen. The 40k universe is set up for endless war. It will always be struggling to survive and just barely squeaking by.

... but if it was going to win, those chaos losers would soooo be dead :evilgrin:


The way I see it, it's almost like all of the other armies weren't created to add diversity, but just to give the Marines something to fight against.

uh oh, they've figured it out :D

1. space marines look cool
2. space marines are easy to paint for beginners (like me:D) who've never painted b4 and are a touch intimidated by the idea of painting scores of guardsmen. I would have done guardsmen if I'd felt like painting SOOOO many models.
3. they cost the least.
4. they're easy to play
5. They're tough as nails.

Ktotwf
18-04-2007, 01:31
I agree. The most sensible way for the Galaxy to continue, being true to the Warhammer 40k mood, is eternal war.

Krog Ironclaw
18-04-2007, 01:36
there are a bunch of hate threads popping up here lately, whats with that? Everyone's so pessimistic here lately. Be happy!

And people hate Marines because they are "uber invincible!!111one FTW!!!"

There isn't a Marine player out there who can't be beat with something else. Marine's are just intimidating with all their cool weapon options, TSKNF , Terminators, tanks, ungodly BS, and impressive armour saves.

My Orks (who havent had a Codex this millenium, and are probably still waiting on one in the 41st...) can take Space Marines any day.

Gutlord Grom
18-04-2007, 01:47
Because people enjoy complaining about who's ever top dog of something, or at least who they see as top dog.Personally, they're fine to play, and definately a bit weaker than Eldar ( at least the way I play. No Assault Cannons FTW!)

If it was the Eldar who got that kind of attention( which would be great) people would do the same things they do now except "Teh eldrr is for noobzzz!!!1!!! U disagre???!!!!111!! U iz a noobz!!!!!1111!!!!!11!

or something like that.

Bloodknight
18-04-2007, 02:14
Marines cause a great deal of boredom as they are the stuff you fight against most of the time if you play pickup games.
I can understand that as a mainly Non-Marine player as well as a chaos player (being a 3+ offender with my DG ;)).

And, as Thommy H put it: they warp the metagame.

salty
18-04-2007, 02:17
Excuse me? Marines are easy to paint? I just started Marines (have, until now, avoided them like the Plague) and I find them bloody annoying to paint. The vehicles are ok (though I only have 4 of them) but the Marines themselves always seem to look messy.

I think many people, myself included, simply dislike them due to the overabundance of Marine players out there. Similarly, the fact that a Marine army almost always looks the same - 2-3 Tactical Squads, some assault marines, a Rhino/Land Raider (depending on pts limit) a commander and maybe a smattering of Terminators or Devastators.

Personally, I've taken the same approach as Gutlord Grom, and many other players no doubt (particularly those who have played other armies first - I have 3000pts of Orks and 1500pts of Dark Eldar). I'm going for an army with a bit more of a theme to it - in my case an Ork hating DIY chapter, with few "sooper weaponz" like the assault cannon (I have none yet).



Salty :)

Warboss Grimmtoof
18-04-2007, 02:27
Where I play no one hates marines.:confused: I play against a SM army almost every weekend and I still like wiping the floor with their ceramite encased butts. Just take them by surprise! Marine players don't really expect any army other than chaos or other guys in power armor to put up a real challenge. A couple of railgun rounds put dem marine boyz in der place!:p

AngryAngel
18-04-2007, 02:59
Because silly, narow minded people can't stand the popular choice. It was pointed out on another thread not too long ago. Ignoring the fact they and everyone else in the warhammer galaxy all force marines down new players throats.

They'll justify the otherwise irrational hate with a bunch of lame and worthless excuses. Like "they're so forgiving" you make a mistake it'll still cost ya. Their forgiving nature lies in the fact even if you equip them poorly they can still hopefully be ok because of their versatility. Which a versatile army like them should be.

They put down the marines, say how crazy good they are. Just so when they win against them they can be like. " I had the world against me and I still won..look how worthless my opponent was..he played marines..I was so much better then him."

Just another way for unpopular dorks, to make themselves feel better then their peers and in essence look down on someone. Namely, marine players and their marines. Its a little sad honestly.

Ktotwf
18-04-2007, 03:27
Because silly, narow minded people can't stand the popular choice. It was pointed out on another thread not too long ago. Ignoring the fact they and everyone else in the warhammer galaxy all force marines down new players throats.

They'll justify the otherwise irrational hate with a bunch of lame and worthless excuses. Like "they're so forgiving" you make a mistake it'll still cost ya. Their forgiving nature lies in the fact even if you equip them poorly they can still hopefully be ok because of their versatility. Which a versatile army like them should be.

They put down the marines, say how crazy good they are. Just so when they win against them they can be like. " I had the world against me and I still won..look how worthless my opponent was..he played marines..I was so much better then him."

Just another way for unpopular dorks, to make themselves feel better then their peers and in essence look down on someone. Namely, marine players and their marines. Its a little sad honestly.

:D QFT. I agree with you about that.

MrGarm13
18-04-2007, 04:29
Space Marines seems to be hated out of the sheer goodies they get and all the updates they get.

Of course, they've probably been around since about the beginning and most studio people at GW can probably recite Space Marines history by heart. This familiarity has probably made the designers comfortable with writing for them. While other armies seem to be jammed into the fluff where they can only seem to fit, The Imperium and Chaos are at the games core.

That's just my idea on why they get so many updates. That and the fact their popular. And we probably have opinionated people around here that just think that everything Mainstream is stupid and that X army is better because they are the only person at their local store that buys them.

azimaith
18-04-2007, 04:33
People don't like SMs because there obviously GW's favored children. Theres always something about them in WD. Theres a new SM codex for practically every Xeno codex, some of which have not been updated for nearly a *decade*. Try playing Orkz and feeling good when your 9 year old codex is announced for late 2008 while Marines are getting update after update.

Its infuriating.

As for the army, I don't really care for it, I don't want to play "super-uber-elite marines." An army of "Master Chiefs" doens't interest me, and I frankly find it trite as hell.

Vaktathi
18-04-2007, 04:44
Because silly, narow minded people can't stand the popular choice. It was pointed out on another thread not too long ago. Ignoring the fact they and everyone else in the warhammer galaxy all force marines down new players throats.

They'll justify the otherwise irrational hate with a bunch of lame and worthless excuses. Like "they're so forgiving" you make a mistake it'll still cost ya. Their forgiving nature lies in the fact even if you equip them poorly they can still hopefully be ok because of their versatility. Which a versatile army like them should be.

They put down the marines, say how crazy good they are. Just so when they win against them they can be like. " I had the world against me and I still won..look how worthless my opponent was..he played marines..I was so much better then him."

Just another way for unpopular dorks, to make themselves feel better then their peers and in essence look down on someone. Namely, marine players and their marines. Its a little sad honestly.

It couldnt possibly be because of all the support Marines get? Of all the shelf area Space Marines get? of all the codex's devoted to an organization that is smaller than any other army in the fluff (6 codex's for Imperial space marines, plus another for Chaos Marines)? could it be due to the overwhelming amount of coverage they get in White Dwarf compared with other races? the fact that almost every BL book deals with Marines save the Sabbat Worlds and Cain novels and a couple other exceptions? Could it be that in every store you constantly get annoying little kids making snide remarks about other armies that are not marines because they have no clue what they are talking about? Could it be about the sheer number of marine armies that are in play compared with everything else? Regardless of how well Marine codex's function or what they contain (disregarding any notions of cheese/power/etc), there are a whole list of reasons why many people may dislike or be just plain tired of Marines. You sound just as biased and arrogant as those you are coming down on (no offense, your post just came off as such)

I myself have a Chaos Marine army, and for the most part have no problems with Marines myself, but I can see where many people would.

AngryAngel
18-04-2007, 05:35
Maybe I sound biased because I get tired of reading time and time again how lame marines are. I promise you everyone has armies they hate dislike or think are just plain crazy strong. I'm a marine player..but as I've said time and time again. If I had known how the armies worked when I started I would have collected Imperial Guard..or Eldar. If people had shot me straight instead of telling me what they think the easy army is. Which is bull crap, then I wouldn't be a marine player.

I have however spent a good deal into my marines, like them and get so tired of people saying how idiot proof they are. I'm sorry my opinion strikes a nerve, I'd just like marine players to see not everyone here buys into the marine hate.

As well every other army has something about it people hate. Yet somehow I don't see that all over the place. Maybe people could grow up and leave the marines alone for once. I know it would be rough to have nothing to complain about but we could always try couldn't we ?

AngryAngel
18-04-2007, 05:37
:D QFT. I agree with you about that.

Thank as well for the positive recognition my friend. People shouldn't be ashamed or made to feel second rate for the army they play in a hobby. Marine players we should stand up together and end this hate. The other side is quite loud and vocal, we should be equally so.

We have a voice, lets make sure the marine hateing world doesn't forget it.

WLBjork
18-04-2007, 05:50
Actually, AngryAngel, the remark is made out of context.

It should be that MEQ are more forgiving than GEQ.

A squad of Space Marines left in the open doesn't have to worry too much unless a shedload of weapons are pointed at them (or half a dozen AP3 weapons or an Ordnance weapon ;)). GEQ on the other hand have to hug cover or die in droves to their enemies basic weapons.

Fair enough, Marines are supposed to be tougher and more survivable than Guardsmen, but they are comparitively cheap for such dramatically increased survivability.

Laughingmonk
18-04-2007, 06:06
I don't hate marines, I think they rock. They're even my favorite opponent, as there's nothing as satisfying as killing an entire tactical squad through virtue of massed armor saves.

I think they're also fun to play, as they have access to some cool units to use on the tabletop (land raiders, assault marines, and terminators being my favorites).

What I don't like, is the fact that other armies get shafted repeatedly for their ends.

I play eldar, and I would love to have a dedicated codex- Biel Tann (ya know, 70 pages of background like the DA? that would be cool). I doubt I will ever see it. Two very popular units (Warp Spiders and Jetbikes) are still using moulds from second edition.

Well, at least we got a new book, unlike orks or DE.

Khaine's Messenger
18-04-2007, 06:26
Why do people hate the SMs so much?

I'll stand by my general opinion of the matter...most people do not hate marines, and those who think they do really don't. Or at least they don't hate the Marines specifically, so much as the whole surrounding circumstance--their understanding of group dynamics ("newbs!!!"), market forces (marines sell-->make more marines!, easy to paint, etc.), game mechanics (assault cannon!!!?-eleven!), bizarro elitism (the old "who's more heroic--guard or marines?" debate), or what have you, any of which may or may not be true in their local environment.

As such, the question posed is a tad misleading....since it was posed in this way, people are compelled to answer the question as opposed to analyzing it, and pretty much everyone and their brother knows the stock answers, the re-trod arguments, and some of those posters don't even support those opinions, they just know how the argument goes. And hilarity ensues as people post heavy-handed criticisms and heavy-handed replies. The same has been said in a previous "Why hate marines?" thread as well as a "why hate Eldar?" thread. And so we've lost the trail of the deeper issue: "how much do people really, honestly hate marines?"

I, personally, like Space Marines. They're a grim bunch, and arguments aside, they're one of the defining elements of 40k. There are aspects of them I don't like, sure. Generally all the fiddly bits where their own morality differs from my 21st century perspective. But I don't hate Space Marines. I even own a couple armies of them alongside my Tau. And I've talked to other people about "what they don't like" about Marines, and the answer is almost universally "it's not that we don't like marines...it's just that we've played against so many of them."

And azimaith, I'm disappointed in you. Where's the fun-loving young'un who posted this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1172057&postcount=280)? ;)

AngryAngel
18-04-2007, 06:38
I don't hate marines, I think they rock. They're even my favorite opponent, as there's nothing as satisfying as killing an entire tactical squad through virtue of massed armor saves.

I think they're also fun to play, as they have access to some cool units to use on the tabletop (land raiders, assault marines, and terminators being my favorites).

What I don't like, is the fact that other armies get shafted repeatedly for their ends.

I play eldar, and I would love to have a dedicated codex- Biel Tann (ya know, 70 pages of background like the DA? that would be cool). I doubt I will ever see it. Two very popular units (Warp Spiders and Jetbikes) are still using moulds from second edition.

Well, at least we got a new book, unlike orks or DE.

As well I agree with you and anyone who wants new models, a new codex. I can understand feeling short changed. I would however wish the anger came out against GW and not just at marines and marine players. It isn't our fault GW does this ya know ? We're all players, playing the game together at the end of the day. Shouldn't it be us vs the company that short changes some of our brothers ?

Cadian 21st
18-04-2007, 07:08
- I don't hate Marines :D! They're not thaaaat bad. They are still, and always will be, versatile. They have no weaknesses...and no strengths.

bratbag
18-04-2007, 09:51
I don't hate them, I detest them.

Lets go to a pick-up game. Oh look marines. Ill beat them the same way I beat that other marine army with a slightly different paint scheme that I played the day before...and the week before...and the month before...and the year before.

I wonder who I will play at tomorrows pick-up game? :rolleyes:


Marines are boring. Boring to look at, boring to play against. Even so called 'divergent' chapters are still the same old numpties in the same old power armor with the same old weapons.

About the only Marines I can stand to fight (and this has only been a recent development) is Dark Angels as they actually do play radically differently from the other marine armies at a tactical level.This may soon expand to cover Blood Angels...we will see.

Corrupt
18-04-2007, 10:40
A squad of Space Marines left in the open doesn't have to worry too much unless a shedload of weapons are pointed at them (or half a dozen AP3 weapons or an Ordnance weapon ;)). GEQ on the other hand have to hug cover or die in droves to their enemies basic weapons.

Fair enough, Marines are supposed to be tougher and more survivable than Guardsmen, but they are comparitively cheap for such dramatically increased survivability.

Its true.
When facing anything short of other guardsmen, I have to make sure everyone is infiltrated into solid cover to have any form of save. If I left a squad of Guardsmen in the open, one tactical Squad of Marines (Assuming 10 with Flamer, Missile Launcher and Bolter over 12"...Sgt has Boltgun, not pistol) Will kill 3.4 Guardsmen with their Boltguns and if they hit with a Frag Missile(3 covered) andother 1.3 so say 5 Guardsmen.

For me to inflict 5 Dead Marines, assuming same specials and heavy's and Sgt with lasgun, Each Squad gets 0.415 Marines with the Krak Missile and 0.4356 Marines with their Lasguns. So thats 0.8506 Marines Dead per Squad, Say It's generous and call it one. That means in order to Kill 5 Marines (75pts worth of guys) I have to fire 5 Full Squads of 10 guardsmen with Missile Launchers(405pts)

This aint so bad, but Marine Players who say they play to have fun and not WAAC bitch that I take Light Infantry with Camleoline and hug cover calling it "Boring" and they screamc heese when I have anti tank squads with 3x Krak missiles target their troops "Should aim those at tanks, it's what they're for...and OMG PLASMA!!!" but apparantly its not harsh to load up on heavy bolters when facing guard..

The look on their faces when in Cities of Death i have a 3+ cover save. They don't like facing it

I don't hate Marines that bad, I play Wolves and BA (1500 and 500 respectively) but very rarely, because I just don't like Marines that much and the attitudes of a lot of their players makes it worse. They ARE that forgiving, because as I just illustrated "OMG My Marines are in the open"...."Ok the entire Guard Army shot them and I lost 8 marines, wheras if GEQ's wander round like that they are absolutely shredded by Bolt Fire. That and the fact i play them almost every game. Gets boring. Wow yet another army with T4 and 3+ saves, Lasplas list again...

Yeah they should be tougher, and they are, but make them more expensive. No way are 3 Guardsmen better than one Marine!

Ianos
18-04-2007, 11:16
We are talking about the race whose basic heavy weapon costing +5 to use, can kill 2 of almost any xenos race warriors at 36". The race that has a gun that costs ridiculusly low and yet can kill any target at 24" better than all other dedicated wepons choices for that target. They get to leave bad situations auto-regroup and then fight again and if you catch them they simply fight. They are better than fearless or whatever morale boost there is but without paying for it. Their basic weapon can kill light/med infantry with ease and the enemy has to use dedicated ap3 or lower guns to kill them in response.
Everybody and their mama, daddy and grandma are playing space marines and the most annoying thing about it is why they do it... "cause space marines are tough and they are brave and get the best gunz and i wanna walk into the middle of whatever and be untouchable like a true heroe!" long live toughness and resilience as if there is nothing else in this game to emphasize. Then everybody wants to be the marine commander sacrificing all, just to satisfy the wet dream of the marine(s) standing on the hill and kill a gazillion stupid xenos with their bolters and heavy bolters and then just charge in the middle of another ten thousand to just proceed and chew them alive.
Everyone buys more marines until they fall upon each other and start fighting "civil war" or "marinehammer", thus in the end everybody prepares anti-marine lists as "generic" so that they can bust all other marines which they don't cause everyone else plays the same, yet the game looks balanced to them since all battles are pitched.
So finally some odd day a xenos guy comes in the store and picks up a game with one of these marine players and proceeds to massacre them because they:
a)are ill equiped to face his army
b)have no idea whatsoever how to play against him
c)don't care what he plays and how, they will beat him cause they are marines!
d)expect him to play like a marine and then he simply doesn't...
.... and guess what comes next? The marine player starts yelling "OMG the cheeze the brokeness the imbalance of the {insert xenos race name}, they are so utterly ought to be nerfed and you are so unfluffy, unsportsmanlike and powergamer for playing them" and that was to polite to be honest compared to what i have realy been said.

So why hate marines?

Stingray_tm
18-04-2007, 11:31
I don't hate Space Marines, they are cool.

I hate the facts that

1. everyone plays them
2. they get special treatments all the time. They get three Codices before someone at GW even dares to say the word "Ork". And they get stuff (psychic hood, teleport homers, drop pods, etc.) that lets them ignore most of the rules everbody else has to deal with, not because they need it, but because they are Space Marines.
3. You have to taylor your list in order to beat Space Marines, but Marines don't have to taylor their list to beat you.

Corrupt
18-04-2007, 11:49
Lmao
For me it is ALWAYS going to be that one Marine player that sums up the problem....
Cities of Death, Camleoline, 3+ Cover Save Guards.
"OMG How can you have a 3+ save thats not fair"
"Your entire army is power armoured..."
"Yeah but Im Marines they are awesome, why can guards get a 3+ save?"
"By not standing in the open waiting for your AP5 bolters to shred me and actually playing smart?"
He actually expected my troops to charge at his heroic marines bolters because thats how the bad guys should work...

Then I fired my Basilisk as he crossed an open street. Wiped out all but 2 of a Tactical Squad
"OMG you ignore my saves? Thats well broken that, They need to remove that"
"Yet your Bolters can ingore my entire armie's save?"
"Yeah you're just Guardsmen though, you suck, Marines are awesome and should always get saves"
"I JUST HIT YOUR WITH A ******* ARTILLARY SHELL"
"Yeah But power armour is awesome!"

The highlight was after his terminators "Totally owned" a squad of 4 Guardsmen who had already been shot to pieces in melee. I should "FEAR" terminator armour beacue..shock horror, bayonets bounced off.
The Special Weapons Squad Demo Charge didnt though
"Why don't I get my 2+ save?????!!!!!???"
"Because you were just hit with an explosion used to demolish buildings and tanks"
"Yeah but Terminatros have like awesome armour"
"Yeah so you get your 5+ invunerable save beacue they armour is so protective"
*He fails all 4*
"Omg thats so unfair, how can a crappy little bomb kill 4 Terminators"

That sums up why I dislike many marines.
I won the game btw :D

Bolter Bait
18-04-2007, 12:06
I don't hate Space Marines. I just dislike having every other opponent playing some sort of variant of them. Seriously, it isn't fun when out of, what, 9-10 types of armies we can play, you go to a mega-battle and over 50% of the players are Space Marines of some flavour.

blargh
18-04-2007, 12:15
When I started playing around 2000 I was told that I shouldn't start a marine army since everyone was playing marines. I didn't listen and started a Dark Angel army stubborn as I am. Guess what? No one else was playing marines since they all bought the "everyone plays marine" BS. Instead I learned to hate eldar with a vengeance.

It felt like every time the eldar was doing something they had a special rule that negated a rule in the main rulebook or one of the advantages of my Dark Angels. Heavy weapons that could fire on the move, fleet of foot for assault troops, a dreadnaught that didn't get knocked out with the first hit, cover saves in the open, psychic powers using 3 dice removing the highest. And of course a million weapons with ap 3 or higher.

Reinhard
18-04-2007, 12:38
Personaly I do not hate marines, but I don’t like them either. There are to many players with marines. Well nobody forces me to play marines. If I have the choice I prefer somebody else. I am playing by the rule of thumb not to play two consecutive games against marines. If there are only marines I will sometimes break this rule but if I don’t like to play against marines again, I just watch the game of some other players. So that’s not really a reason to hate them.

If it comes into the actual gaming mechanics I have some issues with the marines. First they have no distinct weakness. This is often the reason why people like them. As far as I’m concerned this makes them boring and that’s the reason why I will never play them myself. Second, they are supposed to be the elite of the elite. Well if you ask me elites shouldn’t work by relying on ablative wounds. If the guard looses 70% of their men and still have 50% of their initial fire power that’s fine with me. But in an elite army every casualty should count. Look at Necrons, Tau or Eldar units. If you loose half of a fire warrior squad you loose halve of the fire power. If you loose halve of a marines unit you still have the special/heavy weapon and or the hidden power fist. The last 3 models in a (theoretically) full size, fully equipped tactical squad hold about 50% of the fire power and close combat ability of the whole unit. It just seams wrong if you have the elite warriors, who are highly trained and genetically transformed over several years and then during the game they are removed to protect the single guy with the power fist who is doing more damage to the target then his complete squad.

Captain Micha
18-04-2007, 13:03
that is one of my problems with marines. I really think they should have tried to fix that some how. its like playing Ig, with better armor, competency in cqc, better shooting skill... but then again this is the Imperium we are talking about.. its not like they are the sharpest tools in the shed by any means, they probably are not capable of thinking on a higher tactical level than that :p

I don't have a problem with marines per say.. minus the fact they have the best gun in the game (when three races are supposed to be MORE advanced in almost EVERY category) which is a violation of fluff.

I have a problem with their poster child status and the constant release of new rine codicies, and yet the Ig who are infinatly more diverse only got one codex for the entire lot of them. (and it works great don't get me wrong....) yet some how marines get multiple dexes, at the expense of other races (looking at the Eldar, Orks, and Dark Eldar) and yes I realise dar have a 4th codex.. but look how long it took them to make a new dar codex.....

thats the big one I have problems with... the other stuff I can ignore and or work around... that last one you kind of can't..

mjc1000
18-04-2007, 13:11
hasnt this thread been done a million times:confused:

any way people hate sm so much because they say they make the game unbalnced i dont agree with that thats basicly me saying ig or csm are unbalnced oh yea and assault cannons arnet that bad dont know why so many people complain about them yes they are annoying when power gamers use them but i mean come on its basicly a heavy bolter with 4 shots and killing on 6's(unless cover or invunreble)

Cadian 21st
18-04-2007, 13:11
thats the big one I have problems with... the other stuff I can ignore and or work around... that last one you kind of can't..

- Agreed. How long 'til the DEldar 'dex? Is it going to be after Blood Angels, CSM, and Space Wolves? Probably. Maybe their letting them age...


hasnt this thread been done a million times:confused:

- Yep...


assault cannons arnet that bad

- No, AssCans aren't too bad, it's just that SM's have so much access to the kill-all weapons. As has been mentioned...somewhere...AssCans are "masters of all, jack of none."

(P.S. I cannot fathom how you managed to that quote past spellcheck...I'm also impressed at how a SM was promoted to Chapter Master just for a speech. Is that like getting a medal for tying your laces correctly in the <won't say> :D?

"Brothers, tomorow we celebrate our victory; today we fight for the honor of the Chapter. The Emporer's Will is brought with justice. Now CHARGE!" Brother Captin Fars Vule's words of honor that achived him the role of Chapter Master of the Vyper Wings Space Marines Chapter)

Bunnahabhain
18-04-2007, 13:23
It's the lack of sensible AP3 weapons for many armies that lead to a dislike of marines. We have little choice but to load up on plasma simply to get anywhere...

We really need an armour save modifier system though. Marines should be able to walk through a hail of lasgun fire, but heavy bolters etc should really do more.

Sai-Lauren
18-04-2007, 14:07
Hate is certainly a bit strong, but I dislike how they're treated as a special case above every other race in the game.

The design studio focus on them to the virtual exclusion of all other armies - meaning they get a lot of toys, plus sub-codices and add-ons to lists (SW, DA, BA, BT, 13th Co, Grey Knights and Deathwatch) that really do little more than change the colour their armour is painted in, whilst other races are still waiting for their own codex to be sorted out properly (DE and Orks especially).

A vital part of the game seems totally designed to suit them, and everyone else be damned (the AP system).

Look at WFB, there's no race pushed above all others, and there's no similar antipathy towards any of them as there is with marines. And I honestly believe that if GW stopped pushing marines so much and instead focussed on the other races, not only would the sales of the other races go up in response to the increased attention, the sales of marines wouldn't go down too much in response to the less attention they receive - they're an iconic part of the universe, and newcomers, especially the younger ones, will gravitate to them due to their imagery.
But rather than leaving when they grow bored with them, the increased attention given the other races will mean they're more likely going to gravitate towards one of them, meaning they start a second and possibly more armies.
Gamers are happy because they've got new things to think about, their opponents are happy because they've got different enemies to go up against, and GW's happy because they're getting more revenue and profit for no real extra expenditure.

And yes, I do play marines, amongst other armies.

Champsguy
18-04-2007, 14:38
Lmao
For me it is ALWAYS going to be that one Marine player that sums up the problem....
Cities of Death, Camleoline, 3+ Cover Save Guards.
"OMG How can you have a 3+ save thats not fair"
"Your entire army is power armoured..."
"Yeah but Im Marines they are awesome, why can guards get a 3+ save?"
"By not standing in the open waiting for your AP5 bolters to shred me and actually playing smart?"
He actually expected my troops to charge at his heroic marines bolters because thats how the bad guys should work...

Then I fired my Basilisk as he crossed an open street. Wiped out all but 2 of a Tactical Squad
"OMG you ignore my saves? Thats well broken that, They need to remove that"
"Yet your Bolters can ingore my entire armie's save?"
"Yeah you're just Guardsmen though, you suck, Marines are awesome and should always get saves"
"I JUST HIT YOUR WITH A ******* ARTILLARY SHELL"
"Yeah But power armour is awesome!"

The highlight was after his terminators "Totally owned" a squad of 4 Guardsmen who had already been shot to pieces in melee. I should "FEAR" terminator armour beacue..shock horror, bayonets bounced off.
The Special Weapons Squad Demo Charge didnt though
"Why don't I get my 2+ save?????!!!!!???"
"Because you were just hit with an explosion used to demolish buildings and tanks"
"Yeah but Terminatros have like awesome armour"
"Yeah so you get your 5+ invunerable save beacue they armour is so protective"
*He fails all 4*
"Omg thats so unfair, how can a crappy little bomb kill 4 Terminators"

That sums up why I dislike many marines.
I won the game btw :D

New rule. Anyone who complains about any army MUST post awesome stories like this to back them up. :D So let it be written, so let it be done.

Captain Micha
18-04-2007, 15:02
well his pretty much sums up my story. except change out the race for tau and the demo charge for rail gun, and ion cannons and rail rifles to deny his saves....

Templar Ben
18-04-2007, 15:10
As for the army, I don't really care for it, I don't want to play "super-uber-elite marines." An army of "Master Chiefs" doens't interest me, and I frankly find it trite as hell.

Master Chiefs would be Navy not Marines. :p


Actually, AngryAngel, the remark is made out of context.

It should be that MEQ are more forgiving than GEQ.

A squad of Space Marines left in the open doesn't have to worry too much unless a shedload of weapons are pointed at them (or half a dozen AP3 weapons or an Ordnance weapon ;)). GEQ on the other hand have to hug cover or die in droves to their enemies basic weapons.

Fair enough, Marines are supposed to be tougher and more survivable than Guardsmen, but they are comparitively cheap for such dramatically increased survivability.

I love playing my guard hugging the cover in city fights. Then again I rarely play a non-COD game these days.


there is in every crowd that innate urge to be different, and to despise that which is normal. People play 40k. The same people who make up crowds and who vote democrat in every election. Those people hate Marines.
Normal people love them. (I served in the US Marines, please introduce me to your older sister).[dice0]

HooRah Devil Dog. ;)



I do hate playing Marine v Marine but I know that I have to when getting a game at the Bunker. When at home I have lots more options.

Dribble Joy
18-04-2007, 15:18
They'll justify the otherwise irrational hate with a bunch of lame and worthless excuses. Like "they're so forgiving" you make a mistake it'll still cost ya.

You clearly haven't played any other army other than marines, or nothing that's dissimilar to them. SMs are far more forgiving than any other army. Tactical slip-ups cost you far less, for the reasons that other people have pointed out above.

The rest of your post hardly did much to enhance your and other SM players either, if anything it's as irrational and arrogant as how you percieve the 'SM haters' to be.

Champsguy
18-04-2007, 15:43
You clearly haven't played any other army other than marines, or nothing that's dissimilar to them. SMs are far more forgiving than any other army. Tactical slip-ups cost you far less, for the reasons that other people have pointed out above.

The rest of your post hardly did much to enhance your and other SM players either, if anything it's as irrational and arrogant as how you percieve the 'SM haters' to be.

It entirely depends upon who and how you're fighting. When you face powerful things, the other guy can stomp the floor with you. I've seen Marine armies vanish in smoke because the Marine player made a mistake with his deployment. If you have an opponent who will jump on your mistakes, you're dead no matter which race you play.

I started with Dark Eldar. I didn't like them because there was only one tactic to use - the Raider Rush (I didn't want to paint up the 100 models or so that would be required for the all-DL army). I wanted variety. I switched to Marines (because I got an army almost for free). Wow! Saves! Unfortunately, it soon became apparent that Marines lacked many things DE had. Like speed. Now I've switched to Nids. Nids are fun, but they're no more tactically difficult to play than Marines or DE.

Arhalien
18-04-2007, 15:48
there are a bunch of hate threads popping up here lately, whats with that? Everyone's so pessimistic here lately. Be happy!



Agreed. It's a beautiful world and all you lot can do is give off negative waves all the time!


Arrrggghh!!

I'm thinking in the character of my Avatar again!

Tim
18-04-2007, 16:04
Its not hate, its frustration. The people who talk on the boards are devoted to the hobby. They just get frustrated over GWs rather single focus approach to 40K and the 40K back story. Everything is about the Marines, Chaos Marines and the Imperium. Many would like to see some focus on the rest of 40K. I'm a Xenos fan, my armies so far are Orks, Tyranids and Tau. I'm the only one in our club without a Marine army of some flavor (good or bad.) I don't hate the marines I just wish GW would do something campaign wise, or story wise that wasn't marines. When your armies get one to two months of attention every 5 to 6 years and you see Imperial releases (in large numbers) every year you start feeling a bit snubbed. When the only articles about your armies in the white dwarf are battle reports with them being destroyed by the latest flavor of marines, you feel snubbed. Some will say, then go build a Marine Army. but I don't want to, I like non-human armies, and I shouldn't have to build a Marine army to feel like GW cares that I'm a customer.

I'll keep fighting marines. I'll keep hoping for some love for my Xenos, And I'll make the next army I build another Xenos. It's my choice. It just would be nice to feel a little less alone in that choice.

Gutlord Grom
18-04-2007, 17:49
This thread is making me miserable. I hate these stupid threads, put up by idiots bullies who have no targets at the moment, and go for the target they can get the crowds blood up. The people who continously say Marines suxxors and are teh broken cheese, honestly are just going for an easy target. They know that every person on these forums will jump at this type of thread.

I'm tired of people dissing Marines continouisly. I'm tired of people ******** about how Marines destroy "fun". They're my favorite army and there the one I play. Not everybody can afford and paint a 200+ model Guard army or the crap load of metal models necessary for Eldar.

So please, if you're going top diss someone for vague "reasons" , please go to hell.

jfrazell
18-04-2007, 18:14
This thread is making me miserable. I hate these stupid threads, put up by idiots bullies who have no targets at the moment, and go for the target they can get the crowds blood up. The people who continously say Marines suxxors and are teh broken cheese, honestly are just going for an easy target. They know that every person on these forums will jump at this type of thread.

I'm tired of people dissing Marines continouisly. I'm tired of people ******** about how Marines destroy "fun". They're my favorite army and there the one I play. Not everybody can afford and paint a 200+ model Guard army or the crap load of metal models necessary for Eldar.

So please, if you're going top diss someone for vague "reasons" , please go to hell.

Gutlord you're just not being nurturing :chrome:
Mayhaps don't visit these type of threads and get your blood pressure up. I no longer visit pricing threads for that reason.

In the spirit of the recent spat of "hate" threads, is anyone but me mildly annoyed that the first "Chapter Approved" list of some sort features...marines?

What, a more than a one month delay between marine codices/subcodices too much?

BA marines ROXX HURR!

I just realized, with the DA in March and the potential beginning of the BA in May, we've had a massive...30 days... between a marine release.
Prima Facae evidence for gripes about marine favoritism and why 40K is getting stale.

sliganian
18-04-2007, 19:18
Um.. the fact that they could update the Rules and not do any new model releases might have something to do with it being in WD. They could probably do the same for Space Wolves as well.

Did you have a specific beef you were trying to voice?

jfrazell
18-04-2007, 19:27
Yes.
*codex DA in March
*codex BA in May

Once again "updating the rules" for Orks and Dark Eldar are delayed.
Plus I like saying BA marines ROXX Hurr! :D

Karhedron
18-04-2007, 19:30
More likely the reason that BAs are getting done in WD is that the current list is fairly broken and they are not going to get a proper codex any time soon. Orks and DE are likely to be done within the next 18 months. BAs are not even in the timeframe for a new codex at the moment so a get-by list will be useful.

Non-Marine players should at least be grateful that some of more abusable aspects of the current list are rumoured to be toned down.

I would like a bit mroe love for the alien but ultimately Marines are the cash cows of 40K. The profits they bring in help subsidies other less profitable lines.

BrotherMoses
18-04-2007, 19:32
is the current BA list out yet? I thought it was the June edition that was suppossed to have it?

jfrazell
18-04-2007, 19:39
May is fluff, June is the list



Non-Marine players should at least be grateful that some of more abusable aspects of the current list are rumoured to be toned down.

Respectfully, no its an easy excuse that could be used for SW and any other marine codex. The argument can be flipped around for both the Ork and DE lists as well.

sliganian
18-04-2007, 19:39
Yes.
*codex DA in March
*codex BA in May

Once again "updating the rules" for Orks and Dark Eldar are delayed.
Plus I like saying BA marines ROXX Hurr! :D

Perhaps I should use large, Fisher-Price sized letters next time. Let's try again. :rolleyes:

The Orks and Dark Eldar CODEXES -- when they get re-done-- will get large splashy new model releases. This is a Big Deal for GW to co-ordinate, and they would not re-launch those armies without splashy new models. That is how all CODEXES are done. There has never been a Codex released in recent memory that did not involve extensive new modek lines.

The reason the BA can get an UPDATE done the way they are getting done is that the models do NOT have to be re-done / re-released. Therefore, it is a quick win to do, and tides things over until gawds-know when the BA get a proper Codex.

jfrazell
18-04-2007, 19:43
I'll ignore the cheap shot.
Then why not do that for orks, DE or chaos now? We have no confirmation of what codex is coming next.

But the reality of it speaks volumes. Since V4 started we've had marines, Templers, Dark Angels, and now Blood Angels revised lists. In comparison we had Nids, Tau, and Eldar for non marine codexes.

Bolter Bait
18-04-2007, 20:11
I'll ignore the cheap shot.
Then why not do that for orks, DE or chaos now? We have no confirmation of what codex is coming next.

But the reality of it speaks volumes. Since V4 started we've had marines, Templers, Dark Angels, and now Blood Angels revised lists. In comparison we had Nids, Tau, and Eldar for non marine codexes.Well, since BAs haven't been re-released just yet, it is still 3-3 for marines vs everyone else.

jfrazell
18-04-2007, 20:13
1. And this is a good ratio to you?

2. Check the BA threads. This has been confirmed as coming. Frankly its the only thing that has been confirmed as coming.

edit: Do I hate marines? No, thats stupid (and even I can take 2in toy soliders BA Marines Hurr!). But they could have taken that opportunity to highlight a variant non-marine list with ease, putting CA/Optional all over it. They could have even taken an Ork or DE draft list and put it out as a Beta to get some of the bugs out.

Champsguy
18-04-2007, 20:19
Well, honestly, Marine lists are easy to do. There are pretty much no new weapons and no new unit types (for the most part). Marine lists are quick and easy. Also, there are probably more Blood Angels players out there than Dark Eldar players. So it makes sense to get out a list that requires a minimum of work and gives a maximum of happiness to players, as soon as possible.

Let's say GW wanted to release Dark Angels because of the complaints on the SM codex. They wanted to experiment with combat squads and other rules, and DA was a good place to do so. They could then gather feedback and see what worked/didn't work before any SM revamp.

Templar Ben
18-04-2007, 20:23
I'll ignore the cheap shot.
Then why not do that for orks, DE or chaos now? We have no confirmation of what codex is coming next.

But the reality of it speaks volumes. Since V4 started we've had marines, Templers, Dark Angels, and now Blood Angels revised lists. In comparison we had Nids, Tau, and Eldar for non marine codexes.

We have had Marines Dex, BT Dex and DA Dex

We have had Tau Dex, Nids Dex and Eldar Dex

50% each even though Marines are where the sales are.

This is just a list update. It is not a dex. It is also not a bunch of models.

jfrazell
18-04-2007, 20:27
Well, honestly, Marine lists are easy to do. There are pretty much no new weapons and no new unit types (for the most part). Marine lists are quick and easy. Also, there are probably more Blood Angels players out there than Dark Eldar players. So it makes sense to get out a list that requires a minimum of work and gives a maximum of happiness to players, as soon as possible.


Respectfully as I value your opinion Champsguy, constant attention to only one aspect of the 40K is harmful. It turns off non-marine players. Using the same argument they could have come up with a draft Tau/eldar/necron/chaos sublist.




Let's say GW wanted to release Dark Angels because of the complaints on the SM codex. They wanted to experiment with combat squads and other rules, and DA was a good place to do so. They could then gather feedback and see what worked/didn't work before any SM revamp.

And they could do the same now with Orks or DE. Spark interest in a new release (while they complete the minis) with release of draft rules. The rules get playtested, items are tweaked and GW comes out with a new playtested codex, replete with a full line of minis.

jfrazell
18-04-2007, 20:31
We have had Marines Dex, BT Dex and DA Dex

We have had Tau Dex, Nids Dex and Eldar Dex

50% each even though Marines are where the sales are.

This is just a list update. It is not a dex. It is also not a bunch of models.

A "list update" is a new list by any other name.

I guess you're of the mindset that it should codex marines, BT, BA, DA, SW and codex non-marines because marines sell more? Its no wonder, as a non-MEQ you would hav ehad no reason to buy anything. If I were playing orks or DE I would not have bought anything from GW for years. Frankly I haven't bought anything marine related (except an Ahriman model for conversion) in what... two or three years?

Templar Ben
18-04-2007, 20:38
A "list update" is a new list by any other name.

I guess you're of the mindset that it should codex marines, BT, BA, DA, SW and codex non-marines because marines sell more? Its no wonder, as a non-MEQ you would hav ehad no reason to buy anything. If I were playing orks or DE I would not have bought anything from GW for years. Frankly I haven't bought anything marine related (except an Ahriman model for conversion) in what... two or three years?

Right just a list not a Dex. That is what I was saying.

Believe me, were I running GW DE would have been "squatted" already. I would have Codex: Lost Races to include the ones that did not sell so they could still be played but that is as much love as I would give them.

You had no reason to buy anything if you didn't play Marines, Nids, Tau, Eldar or wanted to convert Eldar into DE or convert the others into ork equipment. You got me there.

Comrade JC
19-04-2007, 00:09
Yeah, even as a DA player I agree the codex ratio is out to lunch. By the same token I hope non-MEQ players can sympathize with the fact that my army got royally messed up for a while after 4E marines were released. I won't get into that here, but suffice it to say I was as sore for the DA codex as an Ork player is for his.

Now, if GW was smart they would have done one huge SM release including all the chapters. That would of course require a lot of work and woundn't give them the sales benefits of multiple releases, which is probably why it didn't happen. As well, GW has to decide if they are going to treat SM chapters as different armies or not. This half seperate but not really approach is just going to antoganize everyone (except stock SM dex players).

I think this has a lot to do with the hate on marines, because each release is seen as a "marine release" instead of one for a specific set of players within BT or DA. To some extent they are general "marine releases" and I understand where the sentiment comes from, but the chapter players need their lists as well.

MrGarm13
19-04-2007, 05:09
I say everyone has their own personal opinions on armies. Arguing and complaining about Marines on Warseer probably isn't going to get GW's attention all that fast.

I agree Orks should be re done, but who knows, maybe their second up in the pipeline but are being playtested. I've only seen a copy of an Ork codex on a computer and some of the rules make you scratch your head and wonder what in the world is going on.

GW is making the rounds for codexs, it may be the long about way and may not make sense to anyone including GW, but they are gradually getting there.

And what exactly are we supposed to do, it's not really GW's fault Marines are bought so often, it's a world problem. If one of your friends is going to start playing, try to convince him to go with something other than Marines.

Ianos
19-04-2007, 08:30
And what exactly are we supposed to do, it's not really GW's fault Marines are bought so often, it's a world problem. If one of your friends is going to start playing, try to convince him to go with something other than Marines.

It is not a world problem really since all the xenos races together don't get half the promotion, cheaper prices and good ruleset as the marines do. I mean when i first started the game and i was looking at the rulebook army presentations, i was thinking "hey look at that, Imperial Guard and Orks. Most people must be playing these 2 armies cause they got numbers and Heavy Firepower/Melee respectively." Little did i know that beginers wanted the ultra-elite, few body count space marines. This is a true paradox in a strategy game and it is what defines the inapropriate handling of armies by the company.
As for convincing people not to start marines there is a very simple line i throw and works 90% of the time: "Why on earth would you want to do what everybody else does?".

Sai-Lauren
19-04-2007, 10:39
Let's put it this way.

Marine players complain that Starcannon gets rid of their armour saves? GWs answer? Reduce it's power.
Marine players complain that Terminators are not worth taking? GWs answer? Improve the Crux Terminatus save, and when that doesn't work sufficiently for people's tastes, overpower the Assault Cannon by shoe-horning rending on top.

If marine players asked for the moon on a stick, GW would pretty much ask them what type of wood they wanted the stick made out of.

BloodiedSword
19-04-2007, 12:00
I think another problem is the whole "Marines are so tactically forgiving" aspect, which is obviously aimed at newer players. ATSKNF is the biggest example of this, much more so than the 3+ save, T4 across the board, extreme flexibility of Tactical squads, etc. (Mind you, Chaos are just as bad with their Marks, if not worse)

The problem is what happens when you get an army designed for beginners, with a load of crutches aimed at assisting beginners, and give it to a veteran player.

Suddenly all these little crutches and small advantages add up. What was designed to help a beginner recover from a mistake can now be used to far greater effect by a veteran, who is now able to use all of these little aides to help him execute a battle plan with loads of room for things going wrong - a luxury that armies like Tau simply do not have.

I think this is at least part of the reason that many armies feel like they have to specifically tailor themselves against marines just to get an equal footing, and that obviously leads to Marine hate.

Groksnag
19-04-2007, 12:54
because they have ATSKNF and thus can't be overrun after losing an assault, they almost always get armor saves, and I just don't like them.

Blutrache
19-04-2007, 13:14
I don't. They're right at the core of what the 40k game is about. That they have advantageous rules is OK with me. After all they're supposed to be Heroes, each and everyone of them.

Why do people hate them? The need to feel special, more knowledgeable about the 40k universe? Self styled "fashionistas" perhaps? A desperate need to be unique?

Bottom line is that a game solely focussing on pitting the obscure mud-caste Tau vs. the depraved pink cultists of Slaanesh wouldn't be popular enough to even support a miniature range. ;)

It's just a game. If you're looking after something to get really upset about, how about global warming or something? :)

Arhalien
19-04-2007, 16:21
That they have advantageous rules is OK with me. After all they're supposed to be Heroes, each and everyone of them.



But by that arguing that way Eldar should have technology which is hugely more powerful than enything used by other armies! The numbers of Tyranids on the battlefield should be endless! And on and on and on. There needs to be some concept of game balance, and suspending that because an army is, fluffwise, the best, is a stupid idea.
I'm not, in saying that, saying that marines are unbalanced, I haven't played enough 40k to judge that at all for myself, although many people here seem to think so. I'm saying that, if they were unbalanced, then it could not be justified by the fluff.

Druss the Legend
19-04-2007, 16:26
Hokay...

kind of expected this but hey always been one for a heated discussion after reading every thing put in so far I have to agree with a number of you in that as much as I love my marines (hey I spent a year fully writing up their background and history... ...blame the roleplayer in me for that):

1: they are played by the majority of 40K players

2: Because of this and GW being a private company (who in the end is out to make money), more is done with them than any other force (I do agree with the ork players here Orks need a new Codex like in fantasy)

But one very quick question some of you get irritated by kids insulting every other army erm don' t know about you, but I was like that when I was a kid and well who' s going to take that kind putting down seriously I mean for god' s sake they' re kids!

Lastly I just want to say no army is better than any other SM, CSM, Tau, IG etc all have their strengths and weaknesses and I guess I was just trying to pinpoint where this extrme rivalry came from. I apologise as my original question nothing like this.

Druss the Legend
19-04-2007, 16:28
Sorry just realised my "question" ended up being a rant and not a question. I humbly shoot myself :D

Storm Ghost
19-04-2007, 16:44
Don't forget the power of the Inquisition!!! Go daemonhunters!!!
Anyway, I only collect Space Marines because I always like the new models comming out every couple of months. I'am starting to collect a new army, IG because I don't want to end up having another SM force.... They are very fun and easy to paint though and perfect for conversions.

Dam. Druss the Legend we both have the same Avatar:evilgrin: :o I'am going to have to change now

Blutrache
19-04-2007, 17:00
But by that arguing that way Eldar should have technology which is hugely more powerful than enything used by other armies! The numbers of Tyranids on the battlefield should be endless! And on and on and on. There needs to be some concept of game balance, and suspending that because an army is, fluffwise, the best, is a stupid idea.
I'm not, in saying that, saying that marines are unbalanced, I haven't played enough 40k to judge that at all for myself, although many people here seem to think so.

And that is why the eldar has starcannons (which are/were hissed at by eldar opponents) and the tyranids has their "without numbers" rule! My view of this whining is that the unique abilities that applies to some armies become THE unfair advantage that wins or loses the game. Heck, I've had discussions where people says that the humble 1 pt bolt pistol on a marine character more or less constitutes such a unbalancing factor that it may actually tip the balance to one's favour! Irrespective if it does or not. Of course I agree that you need game balance. But really only in competitive games. I can personally enjoy a last stand scenario where the total amount of gaunts that I can kill before being wiped out is what really matters :evilgrin: and that is where scenarios come in. Personally I find this much more fun than a 2000 pt shoot n' slugfest on a barren grass board.
If anyone's looking for a perfectly balanced game on equal terms I suggest using 40k models on a chess board. For me this isn't exciting. Even though I get to choose the colour scheme.
As for marines being unbeatable. We all know it isn't so. And to say that "I hate marines cause they're soo unbalanced it's unfair" seems at best like a sweeping generalization and childish whining at worst.

Champsguy
19-04-2007, 17:25
If anyone's looking for a perfectly balanced game on equal terms I suggest using 40k models on a chess board. For me this isn't exciting. Even though I get to choose the colour scheme.


....

For some reason this really caught my attention.


King = Marine Captain
Queen = Librarian (heh heh... he's girly)
Bishops = Chaplains
Knights = Assault Marines
Castle = Terminators
Pawns = Tactical Marines

Anyone care to do any other armies?

Madfool2
19-04-2007, 17:26
I like marines.
*Puts on Kevlar jacket*
Just because they are popular and they have an over powered weapon doesn't warrent hatred for me, i mean if we all went on hatred for over powered weapons and wargear, everyone would be beating chaos players with mallets.

Thats what i think.

Zerosoul
19-04-2007, 17:31
But by that arguing that way Eldar should have technology which is hugely more powerful than enything used by other armies! The numbers of Tyranids on the battlefield should be endless! And on and on and on. There needs to be some concept of game balance, and suspending that because an army is, fluffwise, the best, is a stupid idea.
I'm not, in saying that, saying that marines are unbalanced, I haven't played enough 40k to judge that at all for myself, although many people here seem to think so. I'm saying that, if they were unbalanced, then it could not be justified by the fluff.

Your core point is absolutely spot on. However, that being said, I feel the need to say this.

Marines are certainly not unbalanced. They're quite balanced, in fact. They're one of the few codices where almost everything is good and worth taking. With the sole exception of the Assault Cannon nothing is too good or too powerful and even the AC is fine except when players go out of their way to maximize the number fielded. A Marine list can be competitive against any other competitive army list(assuming two equally skilled players, of course). It's just the nature of Internet forums to hate. Remember these key facts and you'll understand how these marine-hate threads work.

1. 3+ armor saves are impenetrable to anything other than tactical nuclear strikes. Even those might fail, so you can't count on them.
2. Terminators are fragile despite having a 2+ armor save and an invulnerable save. This is because only 3+ armor saves are impenetrable. A 2+ save is terrible and may as well not even exist.
3. Veteran sergeants with powerfists are in every army. No, I don't mean just Marine armies. They're also the most powerful thing in the game by an infinite amount. Nothing can hope to stand before their awesome might.
4. Only newbies, children, and people who want easy mode play Marines. A REAL wargamer plays (insert poster's favorite army here).
5. Marines are the most powerful army in the game.
6. Marines are the most terrible army in the game. This may seem to contradict #5, above, but look behind you! A bear! *sound of retreating footsteps, car starting, car peeling out*
7. If a gun doesn't have AP 2, it's useless, no matter how many shots it can put out or what its Strength is. You'd be better off shooting spitballs at your opponent, who is always going to be playing Marines. There are scattered reports of people playing games against non-Marines, but hey, there are scattered reports of people seeing Bigfoot, and you don't believe them, do you?
8. Bolters are beastly death guns rather than just quite good anti-infantry guns. This may seem to contradict #7, above, but that's a trick of the light. Don't ask questions.
9. Anything without Marine stats is a hopeless waste of time. Any save other than 3+ is worthless. Any Strength less than a Marine's is utterly meaningless. Any Toughness less than 4 is garbage. And if your army doesn't have BS4? What are you doing playing something besides Marines, the best army in the history of wargaming?
10. Despite the overwhelming evidence above that Marines are the best and most unbeatable army, a tactical genius can squeak out a win. It's a good thing that I, (the poster in question), am just such a tactical genius!
11. If GW supports their Marine players at all, this means that they're evil and hate you in particular, even if you play Marines, which you do, of course, since everybody does. Supporting the largest portion of their playerbase proves just how out of touch GW has really become with their fans and just goes to show that they're in it only for the money. Imagine - a multinational corporation that wants money!

jfrazell
19-04-2007, 17:33
Your core point is absolutely spot on. However, that being said, I feel the need to say this.

Marines are certainly not unbalanced. They're quite balanced, in fact. They're one of the few codices where almost everything is good and worth taking. With the sole exception of the Assault Cannon nothing is too good or too powerful and even the AC is fine except when players go out of their way to maximize the number fielded. A Marine list can be competitive against any other competitive army list(assuming two equally skilled players, of course). It's just the nature of Internet forums to hate. Remember these key facts and you'll understand how these marine-hate threads work.

1. 3+ armor saves are impenetrable to anything other than tactical nuclear strikes. Even those might fail, so you can't count on them.
2. Terminators are fragile despite having a 2+ armor save and an invulnerable save. This is because only 3+ armor saves are impenetrable. A 2+ save is terrible and may as well not even exist.
3. Veteran sergeants with powerfists are in every army. No, I don't mean just Marine armies. They're also the most powerful thing in the game by an infinite amount. Nothing can hope to stand before their awesome might.
4. Only newbies, children, and people who want easy mode play Marines. A REAL wargamer plays (insert poster's favorite army here).
5. Marines are the most powerful army in the game.
6. Marines are the most terrible army in the game. This may seem to contradict #5, above, but look behind you! A bear! *sound of retreating footsteps, car starting, car peeling out*
7. If a gun doesn't have AP 2, it's useless, no matter how many shots it can put out or what its Strength is. You'd be better off shooting spitballs at your opponent, who is always going to be playing Marines. There are scattered reports of people playing games against non-Marines, but hey, there are scattered reports of people seeing Bigfoot, and you don't believe them, do you?
8. Bolters are beastly death guns rather than just quite good anti-infantry guns. This may seem to contradict #7, above, but that's a trick of the light. Don't ask questions.
9. Anything without Marine stats is a hopeless waste of time. Any save other than 3+ is worthless. Any Strength less than a Marine's is utterly meaningless. Any Toughness less than 4 is garbage. And if your army doesn't have BS4? What are you doing playing something besides Marines, the best army in the history of wargaming?
10. Despite the overwhelming evidence above that Marines are the best and most unbeatable army, a tactical genius can squeak out a win. It's a good thing that I, (the poster in question), am just such a tactical genius!
11. If GW supports their Marine players at all, this means that they're evil and hate you in particular, even if you play Marines, which you do, of course, since everybody does. Supporting the largest portion of their playerbase proves just how out of touch GW has really become with their fans and just goes to show that they're in it only for the money. Imagine - a multinational corporation that wants money!

Thats funny right thar i don't care who ya are :D

KITS AND BITS
19-04-2007, 17:35
We have this question every week, use the search function and find quite a few discussions which led nowhere.

and it take more effort to point that out than it does to ignore it , no wonder you have so many posts ....

Templar Ben
19-04-2007, 17:36
....

For some reason this really caught my attention.


King = Marine Captain
Queen = Librarian (heh heh... he's girly)
Bishops = Chaplains
Knights = Assault Marines
Castle = Terminators
Pawns = Tactical Marines

Anyone care to do any other armies?

IG
King = Senior Officer
Queen = Commisar (Power behind the throne and most powerful piece)
Bishops = Priests
Knights = Rough Riders
Castle = Hmmmmmmmmmm Ogryns?
Pawns = Pawns (by that I mean IG men)


At our bunker I would say that the vast majority is SM players. We have big players, little players, players that climb on rocks....and almost all have a SM army that they can play. I don't care for the SM v SM battles and will often play someone's Tau or Eldar just to keep that from happening. I guess the hate must be in areas I have never played or is just confined to the internet. :chrome:

Arhalien
19-04-2007, 17:37
Your core point is absolutely spot on. However, that being said, I feel the need to say this.

Marines are certainly not unbalanced. They're quite balanced, in fact.

I never said that they weren't :p. My reason for disliking marines is more the fact that they're everywhere, too common, and for some reason i don't like that. It's not hatred, I have no reason for feeling that about this game, it's just a general tendency to support any other army in any battle I'm watching. I also dislike the Imperium on principle, which does beggar the question: Why am I going to do a guard army when the plastic greatcoat guard come out :confused:

AllSystemsGo
19-04-2007, 17:52
I don't hate or get angry playing the majority of my games against space marines. I don't feel any shame playing as marines myself from time to time. I made a concious decision a long time ago that any hate, shame, or otherwise strong negative emotion doesn't belong for me in this hobby. I'm in it purely for entertainment and as a outlet from the real world.:)

Besides, there are plenty of other things in life to get angry or hateful over than plastic army men, such as stubbing your toe, missing the bus, or when your ice cream falls off the cone on a hot day.

Arhalien
19-04-2007, 17:54
or when your ice cream falls off the cone on a hot day.

Happened to me once at a cricket match. Managed to catch it somehow :).

Nice sig btw :D

eldaran
19-04-2007, 18:15
Besides, there are plenty of other things in life to get angry or hateful over than plastic army men, such as stubbing your toe, missing the bus, or when your ice cream falls off the cone on a hot day.

Yeah, it really is a pain when that happens... especially when missing the bus and youre already late (grrrrrrrr)

BTW, how can we trust your sig? After all, as Churchill said:

"The only statistics you can trust are those you have falsified yourself"

Arhalien
19-04-2007, 18:20
, as Churchill said:

"The only statistics you can trust are those you have falsified yourself"

Or, as Disraeli said:

"There are three types of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

:D

AllSystemsGo
19-04-2007, 18:23
Or, as Disraeli said:

"There are three types of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

:D

I'm sure you've both heard the truth: 68% of statistics are made up on the spot. :p

Rider-Of-Kurnous
19-04-2007, 18:43
Look at WFB, there's no race pushed above all others, and there's no similar antipathy towards any of them as there is with marines..

I feel that you are completely wrong there Dwarves , Orcs and Empire are the center of most things in WFB!!

Rider-Of-Kurnous
19-04-2007, 18:46
where i play most people either play marines or a version of them (e.g. grey knights , black templars, dark angels)

Madfool2
19-04-2007, 19:24
I'm sure you've both heard the truth: 68% of statistics are made up on the spot. :p

Including that one :p

Blutrache
19-04-2007, 20:55
Your core point is absolutely spot on. However, that being said, I feel the need to say this.

Marines are certainly not unbalanced. They're quite balanced, in fact. They're one of the few codices where almost everything is good and worth taking. With the sole exception of the Assault Cannon nothing is too good or too powerful and even the AC is fine except when players go out of their way to maximize the number fielded. A Marine list can be competitive against any other competitive army list(assuming two equally skilled players, of course). It's just the nature of Internet forums to hate. Remember these key facts and you'll understand how these marine-hate threads work.

1. 3+ armor saves are impenetrable to anything other than tactical nuclear strikes. Even those might fail, so you can't count on them.
2. Terminators are fragile despite having a 2+ armor save and an invulnerable save. This is because only 3+ armor saves are impenetrable. A 2+ save is terrible and may as well not even exist.
3. Veteran sergeants with powerfists are in every army. No, I don't mean just Marine armies. They're also the most powerful thing in the game by an infinite amount. Nothing can hope to stand before their awesome might.
4. Only newbies, children, and people who want easy mode play Marines. A REAL wargamer plays (insert poster's favorite army here).
5. Marines are the most powerful army in the game.
6. Marines are the most terrible army in the game. This may seem to contradict #5, above, but look behind you! A bear! *sound of retreating footsteps, car starting, car peeling out*
7. If a gun doesn't have AP 2, it's useless, no matter how many shots it can put out or what its Strength is. You'd be better off shooting spitballs at your opponent, who is always going to be playing Marines. There are scattered reports of people playing games against non-Marines, but hey, there are scattered reports of people seeing Bigfoot, and you don't believe them, do you?
8. Bolters are beastly death guns rather than just quite good anti-infantry guns. This may seem to contradict #7, above, but that's a trick of the light. Don't ask questions.
9. Anything without Marine stats is a hopeless waste of time. Any save other than 3+ is worthless. Any Strength less than a Marine's is utterly meaningless. Any Toughness less than 4 is garbage. And if your army doesn't have BS4? What are you doing playing something besides Marines, the best army in the history of wargaming?
10. Despite the overwhelming evidence above that Marines are the best and most unbeatable army, a tactical genius can squeak out a win. It's a good thing that I, (the poster in question), am just such a tactical genius!
11. If GW supports their Marine players at all, this means that they're evil and hate you in particular, even if you play Marines, which you do, of course, since everybody does. Supporting the largest portion of their playerbase proves just how out of touch GW has really become with their fans and just goes to show that they're in it only for the money. Imagine - a multinational corporation that wants money!

Zerosoul, you are my official hero! May you be immortalized in 28mm heroic scale plastic.

sliganian
19-04-2007, 21:33
Including that one :p

Bah! 5 out of 4 people don't understand math anyways! :D

EDIT: Woot! Post #200!

AngryAngel
20-04-2007, 06:11
You clearly haven't played any other army other than marines, or nothing that's dissimilar to them. SMs are far more forgiving than any other army. Tactical slip-ups cost you far less, for the reasons that other people have pointed out above.

The rest of your post hardly did much to enhance your and other SM players either, if anything it's as irrational and arrogant as how you percieve the 'SM haters' to be.

Actually I've played Tau and imperial guard..and done very well with both. Though I guess gun line tau and massed guard are very tactically forgiving too ?

The points given I'm afraid to say are BS..I've played the games and I've seen where bad decisions lead rapidly. Thats true for marines, tau and imp guard. So you keep living in your "elite" world there buddy if thats what ya need to go on.

As for my arrogance, sorry bout that, though here is the only place I deal with such reckless army hate. As for your opinion of me, I assure you I look at you in the same light my good man. Though I promise ya was plenty of rationality in my post. Perhaps more then your capable of understanding however as it does lean more towards understanding human nature.

AngryAngel
20-04-2007, 06:18
Your core point is absolutely spot on. However, that being said, I feel the need to say this.

Marines are certainly not unbalanced. They're quite balanced, in fact. They're one of the few codices where almost everything is good and worth taking. With the sole exception of the Assault Cannon nothing is too good or too powerful and even the AC is fine except when players go out of their way to maximize the number fielded. A Marine list can be competitive against any other competitive army list(assuming two equally skilled players, of course). It's just the nature of Internet forums to hate. Remember these key facts and you'll understand how these marine-hate threads work.

1. 3+ armor saves are impenetrable to anything other than tactical nuclear strikes. Even those might fail, so you can't count on them.
2. Terminators are fragile despite having a 2+ armor save and an invulnerable save. This is because only 3+ armor saves are impenetrable. A 2+ save is terrible and may as well not even exist.
3. Veteran sergeants with powerfists are in every army. No, I don't mean just Marine armies. They're also the most powerful thing in the game by an infinite amount. Nothing can hope to stand before their awesome might.
4. Only newbies, children, and people who want easy mode play Marines. A REAL wargamer plays (insert poster's favorite army here).
5. Marines are the most powerful army in the game.
6. Marines are the most terrible army in the game. This may seem to contradict #5, above, but look behind you! A bear! *sound of retreating footsteps, car starting, car peeling out*
7. If a gun doesn't have AP 2, it's useless, no matter how many shots it can put out or what its Strength is. You'd be better off shooting spitballs at your opponent, who is always going to be playing Marines. There are scattered reports of people playing games against non-Marines, but hey, there are scattered reports of people seeing Bigfoot, and you don't believe them, do you?
8. Bolters are beastly death guns rather than just quite good anti-infantry guns. This may seem to contradict #7, above, but that's a trick of the light. Don't ask questions.
9. Anything without Marine stats is a hopeless waste of time. Any save other than 3+ is worthless. Any Strength less than a Marine's is utterly meaningless. Any Toughness less than 4 is garbage. And if your army doesn't have BS4? What are you doing playing something besides Marines, the best army in the history of wargaming?
10. Despite the overwhelming evidence above that Marines are the best and most unbeatable army, a tactical genius can squeak out a win. It's a good thing that I, (the poster in question), am just such a tactical genius!
11. If GW supports their Marine players at all, this means that they're evil and hate you in particular, even if you play Marines, which you do, of course, since everybody does. Supporting the largest portion of their playerbase proves just how out of touch GW has really become with their fans and just goes to show that they're in it only for the money. Imagine - a multinational corporation that wants money!

lol lol lol..quite a good post my man. I almost pissed myself laughing so much reading this. I should print it out and bring it with me if I "ever" run into the hate offline. I can hand out this, place my hand on their shoulder and say.."It's ok..there are people who understand you." Then maybe we can share a moment, something perhaps just a tad emo..but what the hell..it'll just be so touching.

MrGarm13
21-04-2007, 20:36
Your core point is absolutely spot on. However, that being said, I feel the need to say this.

Marines are certainly not unbalanced. They're quite balanced, in fact. They're one of the few codices where almost everything is good and worth taking. With the sole exception of the Assault Cannon nothing is too good or too powerful and even the AC is fine except when players go out of their way to maximize the number fielded. A Marine list can be competitive against any other competitive army list(assuming two equally skilled players, of course). It's just the nature of Internet forums to hate. Remember these key facts and you'll understand how these marine-hate threads work.

1. 3+ armor saves are impenetrable to anything other than tactical nuclear strikes. Even those might fail, so you can't count on them.
2. Terminators are fragile despite having a 2+ armor save and an invulnerable save. This is because only 3+ armor saves are impenetrable. A 2+ save is terrible and may as well not even exist.
3. Veteran sergeants with powerfists are in every army. No, I don't mean just Marine armies. They're also the most powerful thing in the game by an infinite amount. Nothing can hope to stand before their awesome might.
4. Only newbies, children, and people who want easy mode play Marines. A REAL wargamer plays (insert poster's favorite army here).
5. Marines are the most powerful army in the game.
6. Marines are the most terrible army in the game. This may seem to contradict #5, above, but look behind you! A bear! *sound of retreating footsteps, car starting, car peeling out*
7. If a gun doesn't have AP 2, it's useless, no matter how many shots it can put out or what its Strength is. You'd be better off shooting spitballs at your opponent, who is always going to be playing Marines. There are scattered reports of people playing games against non-Marines, but hey, there are scattered reports of people seeing Bigfoot, and you don't believe them, do you?
8. Bolters are beastly death guns rather than just quite good anti-infantry guns. This may seem to contradict #7, above, but that's a trick of the light. Don't ask questions.
9. Anything without Marine stats is a hopeless waste of time. Any save other than 3+ is worthless. Any Strength less than a Marine's is utterly meaningless. Any Toughness less than 4 is garbage. And if your army doesn't have BS4? What are you doing playing something besides Marines, the best army in the history of wargaming?
10. Despite the overwhelming evidence above that Marines are the best and most unbeatable army, a tactical genius can squeak out a win. It's a good thing that I, (the poster in question), am just such a tactical genius!
11. If GW supports their Marine players at all, this means that they're evil and hate you in particular, even if you play Marines, which you do, of course, since everybody does. Supporting the largest portion of their playerbase proves just how out of touch GW has really become with their fans and just goes to show that they're in it only for the money. Imagine - a multinational corporation that wants money!


Heh, this is funny. You should make a thread with all these about all the armies. I wonder if it'd turn into the biggest flame war that Warseer's ever had.

Outlaw289
21-04-2007, 21:16
I tend to not like certain kinds of Marines. They're easy to min-max, cheese-out, and have over the top options. Most players don't do them, and playing against a balanced Marine list is fun (since they're still tough and able), but most players don't like simple, forgiving, and powerful cheese options they can take.

RavenMorpheus
21-04-2007, 21:26
Everybody hates SM for the same reason I hate questions like this - becasue I do?!

Darkhorse
21-04-2007, 21:32
From our current campaign;

Who we are and why we fight

The self-proclaimed ‘Forces of Good’
If you believe that the Inquisition is always right then this is the side you want to join. Lead by the Daemon Hunters and gathered from across the galaxy (otherwise known as the 30 mile zone around Chester) you have to be either a member of the Emperors supposed Elite; the Space Marines, or a hunter of some kind (daemon, witch and heretic are the favoured choices.

If you have chosen the ‘Goodies’ then your reason for fighting is as follows: The Inquisition claim to have uncovered a plot to kill the Emperor and destroy the Imperium of Man (not especially original but everyone loves a good ‘End Of The Universe‘ action spectacular). Intelligence from various sources has pin-pointed a shadowy individual, known only as Dorn, to be the catalyst of the heretical movement. Mentions of a dark force called Dar’koth also fill the reports, although what this force is can only be speculated at.


A wide selection of mostly anonymous Space Marine Chapters have formed up to be lead by the Daemon Hunter that is (the Supreme Co of the ‘Forces Of Good’). So far they have advanced steadily outwards from their bridgehead into the centre of Maginor Prime. However they have struggled in some areas and at least one Marine army has been spotted hiding behind buildings and going for a draw while attacking (you know who you are!) hardly very superhuman or heroic.


‘The Axis Of Evil’
Fighting against the horror of ruled over by Space Marines are the best of the rest, an alliance made out of everyone else with no regard for personal vendettas or blatant conflicts of interest. The Supreme Commander of this bizarre shambles is a self-styled Warlord in the form of our very own Dark Eldar Archon.
In actual fact the pointy eared one appears to have tagged along to a wave of Chaos Marines, and some very confused Salamanders, and by some fluke ended up in charge. The large Imperial Guard contingent is currently following orders to clear the planet of all hostile forces, with all orders received by radio from the Imperial Governors Palace (also the place that the Dark Eldar first landed, funny thing that).
God knows what secret plan the Necrons are following, but it seems that currently their aims coincide with the rest of the universe; namely kick seven shades of the brown stuff out of the Space Marines, and at least 50% of the universe is a fan of anyone that follows that plan.
With this kind of a plan, everyone who has a hatred for power armour is called upon to feed that hatred, to nurture it, and then release it in a non-pacifist kind of way (as directed by your company manual).

The forces of Good are of course the SM led by Daemon Hunters, ie; Grey Knights.
The Axis of Evil is the other half of us including 2 SM players who couldn't fit into the FoG without unbalancing the sides, 3 IG players, 2 CSM, 1 DE and a Necron army.
SpaM again.... :rolleyes: