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AlphaLegionMarine
24-04-2007, 18:48
Does anyone play them? How are they tactically? Fast and Shooty? Are they supposed to assault?

lord_blackfang
24-04-2007, 19:08
Bikes are best treated as fast tactical squads. More shooty than assaulty.

Gimp
24-04-2007, 19:38
from what I have heared very good.

the trick is not to rush forward shoot, assualt then die.

but to cycle around terrian and shoot only those models that can shoot back.

TheWarSmith
24-04-2007, 19:43
I'd strongly recommend using Ravenwing rules for them, as they'd be much much better suited for white scars.

AlphaLegionMarine
24-04-2007, 19:56
I really don't want to go to Ravenwing rules. May I ask the difference? My thoughts are it's either playing White Scars or Salamanders and Im trying to find which one fits me better. Im used to infiltrating my entire army for better firing positions (Alpha Legion advantage)

PrinnySquad
24-04-2007, 20:06
The INdex Astrates book I have has rules for them.
Dunno if they are avaible online.

==Me==
24-04-2007, 20:37
White Scars and Sallies use traits now, their old rules no longer apply.

If you want to go WS, I agree with TheWarSmith, RW are the best ruleset out there currently for a bike-heavy army such as the RW. Just take a counts-as Sammael (instead of a jetbike he has a chopper with scram jets that allow him to jump over terrain :D) and have at it.

Captain Micha
25-04-2007, 00:57
Ravenwing rules are much better for the scars.

Rogal
25-04-2007, 04:40
I have 3 marine armies, Space wolves, Imperial Fists, and White scars. The white scars are the tuffest to build and play, but look the coolest. First off, ignore some of the old editions of fluff about the scars. Yes they are based on the mongols of Gengis Khan and Tamerlan. Fantastic Calvery, yes, but the Mongols also had to preform seiges as well as used gunpower. This idea of limits on tanks is just lame, why limit your forces. The white scars are going to have all types of units, there not going to avoid a Space hulk or fighting in a Hive due to lack of flexability, they adapt and overcome.

For elites I take 3 dreadnoughts for long range firepower (Laz cannon and either missle launcher or power fist). Termies are ok, but your army is already going to have a lack of long range firepower. Dreads can also come in by drop pod and can fire all its weapons and still move. Slower then bikes, sure but you need the enemy to worrie about armor a little bit in hopes that less anti personal weapons come to bear on your expensive bikes.

Troops I try to take 1 to 3 bike squads, 5, some with melta/plasma and an attack bike. I also take a few tac squads purly to add men to the fight. I really want to add drop pods here but I'm limited to 3 and then no fast attack so that planes are on hold for now. A good scout unit or two are nice againse a few armies especially if you can get them pinned down.

Fast attack, depending on the number of Drop Pods I use, I take Land speeders. I really really hate glueing them together and with raven wing out, you might look to limit the 9 speeder force with 9 assault cannons. My fear that this will get altered to look more like raven wing one day. I also like to take one squad of jump marines here. Yes I know Ill catch alot of flack here about the limited use of bikes, but to be honest I beleive it was Paul Sawyer who really made the white scars a chopper force. I've curssed his name ever since. My white scar mech army collects alot of dust and had encountered a few warp storms (baseball bat) and so has been in decline over the years. Speeders are good, all I have to say is be forwarned of spending money and painting 9 A. cannon speeders cause i'll bet they will get nerfed.

Heavys I really catch hell here on moble forces, but you tie a commanders hands, we will find a new solution with what we have to work with. Buy a land raider and use it once in a while, its purly to keep your opponent honest and be ready to deal with armor and waste alot of points (hopefully) to deal with it. Main tank I like to use in most battles are a Predator destructor, H bolter suponsons, and pintle mounted storm bolter. This is a nice cheap weapon system against swarm armies (I would take 3 if I was allowed). The only choise left is Dev squads, and you take 2. I like to take one anti Armor and one anti infantry squad.

HQ's most are just added to a bike squad but taking one in a Termy command squad is doable. What sucks, no command squads for bikers, so its attach or teleport in.

In conclusion, your army is fun to play but not real competive compared to normal marines, and Dark angles will just make you look sad. Your going to lack firepower, numbers, armor, and just overall flexability. Your main strength is that you look cooler then most marines, you look like stormtroopers in white, what else could be cooler. Your victories are based on your skill as a commander more so then just about any other marine crew. I like the bikes but Games Workshop I hope alteres the lack of armor/transports for the White Scars both from a player and a sales point of view.

AlphaLegionMarine
25-04-2007, 04:47
I might consider a succesor chapter from the White Scars, perhaps infiltrated by Alpha Legion and using BSatW, True Grit and Aspire to Glory instead.

Lancaster
25-04-2007, 05:01
Ahh... White Scars... Ironically the only non-white space marines (they are Indian if I am not mistaken)

Does anybody have the traits that represent them?

I know salamanders are the one for two special weapons, but no idea on white scars

AlphaLegionMarine
25-04-2007, 05:06
Mongolian actually.

Traits are Be Swift As The Wind and True Grit, disadv:flesh over steel

Rogal
25-04-2007, 05:17
There Mongolian not Indian (India had an empire called the Margules). White scars get Trust your battle brothers (Truegrit/counter attack), Be Swift like the wind (allows more bikers in elite and troop selection areas), and Flesh over steel (this really limits armor). No marine force is pure one race either since most recrute off many different worlds. Some don't but many due. Its either your human or not to be trusted, color of skin is not really an issue since marines are based from great warriors from all areas and time periods in human history. It seems prior to WW I all historic culture that was warrior based could have a marine chapter based on them. WW I on, your history is more modled on the Imperial guard it seems.

AlphaLegionMarine
25-04-2007, 15:44
again I ask, what is the Ravenwing advantage?

(as I read the Ravenwing, opinions? thread)

sliganian
25-04-2007, 15:52
Ahh... White Scars... Ironically the only non-white space marines (they are Indian if I am not mistaken)

Does anybody have the traits that represent them?

I know salamanders are the one for two special weapons, but no idea on white scars

Only non-white? Well, if folks are playing the Race card, the Salamanders are often portrayed as black, and I painted any of my Sallies that way as well.

Having said that, I can't say I ever bothered to sit and think of SM's as 'white' or not. Kinda hoped folks woudl get past that and paint how they wanted. :rolleyes:

TheWarSmith
25-04-2007, 16:04
ravenwing have greater access to landspeeders(might not take those in white scars).

Their bike squads scout

They don't need 5 man bike squads(it's 3 or 6, nothing else)

No restrictions on transports

ravenwing standards granting +1 attack.

ALL bikes have teleport homers.

Gimp
25-04-2007, 16:10
Ahh... White Scars... Ironically the only non-white space marines (they are Indian if I am not mistaken)

Does anybody have the traits that represent them?

I know salamanders are the one for two special weapons, but no idea on white scars


Sorry dude got you facts wrong.

White Scars are mongolian.

And as far as i know the salamanders represent people from africa and mortifactors represent people from the west indies.

Ha coming from a person that lives in africa i think its really cool.

Now the question remains how to blend Zulu and Xhosa tradition with Space Marine Fluff?

AlphaLegionMarine
25-04-2007, 16:18
Thanks for the info TheWarSmith. I think this is the way to go. Do I really have to have all the iconography of the Dark Angels if I get the Ravenwing boxset? I added it up, and it's $70 cheaper than what's in the box. :O A surprising deal and I might need a couple or even 3.

Feor
25-04-2007, 16:35
I had the idea of using either BSatW or Ravenwing rules to make a marine chapter using iconography and various bits from the Fantasy Bretonians. Truly Knights in space.

Course, I went a little past that, actually designing my list as Brets in space. ("Peasent Bowmen" scout snipers, "Pegasus Pattern" Landspeeders, "Trebuchet" pattern whirlwinds, etc.) But it's still an idea for you.

Or you could combine the two, Make a Salamanders successor chapter that rides bikes. (BSatW, Never Despair, and Flesh over Steel look decent)

AlphaLegionMarine
25-04-2007, 16:40
I would use Aspire to Glory for a drawback as I like tanks but Im not so fond of the boxes called Dreadnoughts.

I haven't seen a paint scheme or chapter badge for the Destroyers (White Scars successor chapter)

TheWarSmith
25-04-2007, 16:55
Just get the stuff and skip on the iconography. You can build all of it without all the extras.

Only problem with the bikes is no gun options. No plasma/melta options whatsoever. So I'll probably bits order the chaos ones if they fit.

AlphaLegionMarine
25-04-2007, 17:11
even with the regular marine bikes? (Not Ravenwing)

FireN.Brimstone
25-04-2007, 17:39
The difference before the most recent codex was you could have Tanks. After the most recent codex the difference is far more negligible. They are:

Be as Swift as the Wind advantages
- Bike squads can have attack bikes in them,
- Elite bike squads (and depending on your reading of the trait attack bike squads) can have furious charge or tank hunters.
- All bikes can take Skilled Rider
- Can have as many assault cannon speeder as you want

Ravenwing Advantages:
- All bikes have scout USR (this is the main reason to go Ravenwing to count as White Scars)
- All bikes have teleport homers (only comes into play if you use terminators though, which are exactly all that white scar like)

The Be as Swift as the Wind list may be longer, but the Ravenwing Scout USR is a very good advantage. Just keep in mind, bike armies are NOT assault armies, there all about using speed and terrain to create local fire superiority to take your opponents army out piece by piece. These armies only use assault to finish off weakened units or to gain cover from enemy fire.

(this is coming from someone who hasn't read the Dark Angles codex, so feel free to correct me folks)

TheWarSmith
25-04-2007, 17:48
ravenwing also allows you to run tons of little 3 man bikes squads, because they field split a choice of 6 into 2 3 man squads without taking up extra choices.


To the OP, not sure if you were planning on using actual ravenwing boxes.

AlphaLegionMarine
25-04-2007, 18:00
I was going to grab a few of the Ravenwing army deals. Im asking do the regular Space marine Bikes (think Ultramarines) come with plasmagun or Meltagun bitz?

Worsle
25-04-2007, 18:11
I thought that teleporting in assault terminators was very much in the charicter of the White Scars.

Big problem with the current white scar rules using the normal codex is the limitation on transports. While the white scars use bike more than other people they also make sure all of there squads are transported and rhinos are both cheaper in the DA codex and not limited. Personally I think the DA codex represents the white scars a lot better just now.

TheWarSmith
25-04-2007, 18:11
yes, they do, but they're very dated early 3rd ed(maybe 2nd ed?) metal torsos. I think you'd be better off getting the chaos metal bits that mount on the bike if they fit, which i think they would.

Feor
25-04-2007, 18:18
Also of note, the bikes are easily converted using regular Space Marine torsos and weapons. So if you have some floating around, the fact that the box only comes with a limited selection isn't a major factor. For my one bike squad I used the included Plasmagun, then modded the second plasmagun and sergeant.

AlphaLegionMarine
25-04-2007, 18:35
Hmm using Ravenwing rules to represent White Scars seems more and more plausible. Or even a break away chapter from the White Scars that resembles Dark Angels.

Gimp
25-04-2007, 18:50
I am not a huge fan of the new dark angel rules.

i find them way to restrictive.

there is hardly any choices in the list espicially when it comes to characters.

AlphaLegionMarine
25-04-2007, 18:53
My fear is DIY codex lists and the Marines that dont have a book are going to be thrown all into Nilla Marines with the Redux in the next year or two, so I feel Ravenwing is the better way to go.

Just like Alpha, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Word Bearers are Black Legion based on rumors.

TheWarSmith
25-04-2007, 18:55
yeah, characters are a bit too restricted.

Worsle
25-04-2007, 19:41
That is the other advantage of the DAs they have a codex and you can be sure the rules will be like that for quite a few years to come. While the DA charicters are more restricted that is the future, it can be helpful to embrace it now.

Rogal
25-04-2007, 22:00
The only possible disatvantage with making a white scar army from the Dark Angle army list is that it won't be tournament legal. For alot of players this matters very little, but for those that play in these events, be warned is all.

"Codex: Space Marines Traits may be used. If using a Chapter with defined Traits in the Codex, those must be used." Quote from the Grand Tournament rules about space Marine armies. Play the scars how you want for having fun is all that really matters. I just hate seeing players build an army just to have alot of it become null and void due to new rule books ect. I agree that Dark Angles are closer to a white scar force then what was handed to them in the main marine book.

==Me==
25-04-2007, 22:07
Only problem with the bikes is no gun options. No plasma/melta options whatsoever. So I'll probably bits order the chaos ones if they fit.

Upgraded weaponry is carried by the rider, not mounted on the bike, and there's plenty of em in the boxes IIRC:angel:

@Rogal: If something so pedantic was enforced, I wouldn't play in the tourney anyway. Besides, easiest way to get around it is call them the White Knights of the Emperor or something and count as RW.

AlphaLegionMarine
25-04-2007, 22:30
I have no plans to ever play in tournaments. I play with a dozen or so guys in various people's houses (rotates on who makes it week to week).

Heh, Me. What do I do when they ask about the shoulder insignia? Not like it would ever matter, but funny.

==Me==
25-04-2007, 22:35
Instead of white knights, go for Emperor's Thunderbolts or whatevs :D

Captain Micha
26-04-2007, 01:42
to heck with grand tourney rules. nothing would really stop him from painting his das like scars now would it? or are they -that- dumb? *L*

just don't claim them as scars at gt simple as that.

keatsmeister
26-04-2007, 01:54
Nice as Ravenwing rules are, they don't really have that much over the White Scars using traits to make a significant difference. The major influence is whether you would use infantry and supporting armour if you allowed yourself the option.

I have a fair amount of success using traits, by employing the bulk of my units as bikers, but by taking at least one squad of Scouts (either Snipers/Heavy Bolter or Assault weapons/Vet Serg with Thunder Hammer) and an infiltrating Veteran squad with either Plasma or melta weapons. I also vary this with a jump pack squad if terrain is likely to be horribly dense. My bikes do run about adding their firepower, but they can be great for driving straight at the opponent, and pinning an element of their force back long enough for your supporting units of infantry to get in the fight. As all my infantry units can infiltrate, this is rarely an issue.

Whichever Codex rules you use, the speed of bikes can make a huge difference when used well. Deploying your first two units in opposite ends of your deployment zone and spreading them out can contribute to less experienced gamers spreading out to match you, or to contest objectives. By using your turbo speed, within a small space of time, if the opponent does spread out, you can condense your force into a small, compact unit which can annihilate one section of your opponent before moving on to the next section. I've used this several times. It's a simple strategy, but one that works well

neko_katan
26-04-2007, 03:26
DREADNaUGHTS ARENT IN WHITE SCARS!!!

sorry...but had to put htis in and its one of the big flaws of the current White Scar rules in the new Space MArine book..but it's stated explicitely in their fluff that white scars do not use ANY dreanaughts..sarcophagi..etc. no..not even a dreadnaught sarcophagus...etc. they feel that when their warriors die..or are mortally wounded..etc. beyond just bionics..they should be left to rest and be burried...not kept alive with a bunch of tubes...so..if you wanna play fluff White Scars...which if you are investing the money in all those bikes you might want to do..XD...uhh...yeah..they dont use any dreadnaughts...period... and the living marine in a dread...doesnt seem to fit their style...soo..heheh :D

TheWarSmith
26-04-2007, 04:32
The only possible disatvantage with making a white scar army from the Dark Angle army list is that it won't be tournament legal. For alot of players this matters very little, but for those that play in these events, be warned is all.

"Codex: Space Marines Traits may be used. If using a Chapter with defined Traits in the Codex, those must be used." Quote from the Grand Tournament rules about space Marine armies. Play the scars how you want for having fun is all that really matters. I just hate seeing players build an army just to have alot of it become null and void due to new rule books ect. I agree that Dark Angles are closer to a white scar force then what was handed to them in the main marine book.

That's so rediculously ludicrous it's not even funny. I think what they're more trying to say is that you can't/shouldn't take white scars, but give them a different disadvantage in order to better suit you.

So the way around that, if you gave a $#!%, is to have the army "look" like white scars, but use DA/RW rules. Say they're a successor chapter of white scars or whatever. Honestly, if a player ever had a problem with using rules that you honestly felt better fit(and weren't just a power gaming git), i'd simply refuse to play him.

Rogal
26-04-2007, 07:45
The orgional White scars army list came out in 1988 in Chapter Approved. Dreadnoughts, jet bikes, land speeders Land raiders, and hover tanks were all part of there forces. Infantry also played a bigger part back then. Cobra squads were there recon units that had jump packs. The soul drinkers were there veteran assault infantry. This was 1st edition before the Chaos books came out. Armies from this time seem to be almost pre hersery. ( The orgional Dark Angles Ravenwing all used mostly jet bikes, there list is back in WD 90 something) The white scar fluff has changed over the years alot compared to many other chapters, primarly because there are not a major chapter (sales wise).

keatsmeister
26-04-2007, 10:23
That's so rediculously ludicrous it's not even funny. I think what they're more trying to say is that you can't/shouldn't take white scars, but give them a different disadvantage in order to better suit you.

So the way around that, if you gave a $#!%, is to have the army "look" like white scars, but use DA/RW rules. Say they're a successor chapter of white scars or whatever. Honestly, if a player ever had a problem with using rules that you honestly felt better fit(and weren't just a power gaming git), i'd simply refuse to play him.

Really? First of all, the traits listed in the codex were only ever guidelines to how they should be used. They were never air-tight rules which must be adhered to by all White Scars forces. Second, even if they were, the hobby is flexible enough to accept minor personal variations. If someone feels strongly enough that a particular ruleset better fits the style of fighting for their particular force's background, then I'd be happy enough with that. Finally, even if I did have a problem with it, don't you think it makes a stronger point when you play them, and totally annihilate them?

Rlyehable
26-04-2007, 11:55
I think that if I were to run White Scars, I would just give them "Be Swift as the Wind" and a minor drawback. Mount any HQ ICs on bikes and forget the command squads.

When they redo the SM codex, I hope that Be Swift as the Wind and Blessed Be the Warriors will allow for bike/jumppack (respecivly) command squads.

And yes the "Red Lightning" chapter (above traits) with white armor and yellow trimmed red lightning bolt symbol were more common than official White Scars for a while.

AlphaLegionMarine
26-04-2007, 13:12
I dont think any traits will be in the new SM dex. White Scars will only be achievable by Ravenwing. Look at what they are doing to Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and the Night Lords. The rumors that Brimstone has posted about the new 'dex is pretty much rolling them up into Black Legion.

Feor
26-04-2007, 14:33
There's way too many traited armies out there for GW to drop the traits system alltogether. I can see it getting some revision, but not being simply abandoned.

Also, @ keatsmeister: the rules in the codex aren't "guidelines," right in the codex, page 45: "If you wish to play an army of one of these Chapters using the Chapter Traits rules, hen these are the traits you must use." it does clarify that you can play them without traits (a little unfluffy for White Scars, though) and you always have the option of creating your own "Successor Chapter" with it's own traits.

lord_blackfang
26-04-2007, 14:35
Red Scars: Be Swift as the Wind, Die Standing. Same colour scheme. Sorted.

AlphaLegionMarine
26-04-2007, 14:48
Hmm, well I guess I'll give it some more thought. I still think the Ravenwing boxes are a great way to start White Scars no matter which way I decide to go with Ravenwing/White Scars.

keatsmeister
26-04-2007, 15:14
Also, @ keatsmeister: the rules in the codex aren't "guidelines," right in the codex, page 45: "If you wish to play an army of one of these Chapters using the Chapter Traits rules, hen these are the traits you must use." it does clarify that you can play them without traits (a little unfluffy for White Scars, though) and you always have the option of creating your own "Successor Chapter" with it's own traits.

Never mind. Misunderstanding....too much grog in the system....:confused:

That's what happens when you play by the book for so long you don't even go back to refer to the word for word detail.....

Anyways, the Successor Chapter is a seriously good option if you don't want to be bound up by the likes of taking Flesh Over Steel, not my favourite part of fielding WS these days. Get a basic force toegther, without investing too heavily in flashy elite units that would commit you to any one option. Play a few friendly games with each ruleset, and see which one appeals to you in terms of style, and go with that one.

lord_blackfang
26-04-2007, 15:16
Hmm, well I guess I'll give it some more thought. I still think the Ravenwing boxes are a great way to start White Scars no matter which way I decide to go with Ravenwing/White Scars.

No doubt about that. I'd get 2 at the very least, even if you plan on including lots of support (Predators, etc)