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Blandman
26-04-2007, 14:43
Okay...so I was thinking the other day. Rough Riders, right. Why? Just why? We haven't used cavalry since WW1. Why on Earth would they use them so far into the future? They've got lasers, huge cannons, weapons capable of destroying a whole planet instantly. Cavalry don't really have a place in that type of warfare. To me, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I don't know. Rough Riders have always just seemed a little out of place to me.

Galvatron1701
26-04-2007, 14:50
Here's two reasons, they look cool and give the guard some needed mobility and puch/counter-punch. I do feel thsat the models could do with upgrading, and even sometimes feel that they should be on bikes instead of horses (I'll punish myself later for saying that).

Besides, we still use cavalry today. The British used cavalry in Afghanistan not only because tanks couldnt climb the terrain, but also because men on horseback frightened the local populace less then a whopping Challenger.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 14:52
They do give some good character, but they could give them something else for fast movement. Like an armoured car or something.

Aye. But what I meant was, you wouldn't send cavalry at a machine gun line would you? It would be suicide. Transportation is quite fine, but in battle? It wouldn't work. (unless you were reasonably close.)

Bloodknight
26-04-2007, 14:53
Horses don´t need fuel and can be eaten themselves.
So for logistic purposes horses are a lot better than bikes. Also you can actually fight from horseback while fighting from a bike will just lead to a serious overturning on impact. Bikes are even less realistic.

edit: you wouldn´t send any CC troops at a machine gun line, that´s why we don´t use swords in battles anymore except some bayonet fighting in urban areas. So technically not even Khorne Berzerkers would make any sense.

Kegluneq
26-04-2007, 14:55
You might as well say infantry has no place either, if you're reducing combat to Exterminatus...

Rough Riders have an advantage over vehicles in that they can cover fairly rough terrain stealthily and quickly. On agriworlds, where supplies of Promethium might be limited, they can be a great deal more self sufficient too. They also - perhaps crucially - don't require a constant Ad Mech accompinament.

I daresay their continued use comes from their ritualised role on planets of a lower technological level, where cavalry might dominate battle on open battlegrounds. Rough Riders are the IG's way of giving them an actual role in battle, and thanks to their uber lances they can actually play a respectable role.

superknijn
26-04-2007, 15:02
It's Warhammer 40K , so there are much less logical and realistic things than in other futuristic settings. Also, don't forget that there are many different worlds in the Imperium, among which probably not-so advanced worlds where there is simple laser-technology, but not enough fuel, materials or know-how to build tanks and the like. This is all very possible in the Imperium.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 15:02
edit: you wouldn´t send any CC troops at a machine gun line, that´s why we don´t use swords in battles anymore except some bayonet fighting in urban areas. So technically not even Khorne Berzerkers would make any sense.

It's a little different when you're a huge hulking power armoured freak with a huge axe. As opposed to a lightly armoured horseman.

Also, I never said fighting from bikes. I personally think that's a bit silly. But of course, Space Marines are super human. They can do anything and everything :rolleyes:

But I mean, what about Death Korps? Surely their world isn't very agricultural. Or Desert Raiders?

In my own opinion, not requiring fuel is one of their only advantages. But then, they need rest and food instead. And unlike machines, they die of exhaustion.

EDIT: Very true super, but they get used outside of those worlds as well. It just seems a bit, well, mad to send them at a firing line.

Kegluneq
26-04-2007, 15:07
But I mean, what about Death Korps? Surely their world isn't very agricultural. Or Desert Raiders?
Death Korps needed them for 'historical' accuracy :p And they could certainly use them when conditions get just a little too muddy for the big heavy tanks...

In my own opinion, not requiring fuel is one of their only advantages. But then, they need rest and food instead. And unlike machines, they die of exhaustion.

But when they do die, they're not as much of a loss - and can even be used for food and Administratum glue supplies.

Quin 242
26-04-2007, 15:22
As has been said,
Horses make good fighting platforms, additional unit speed and can carry a load. They don't need maintenance from a mechanicus and they can add to the food supply if absolutely needed.

In an ABSOLUTE pinch.. they even can be made into ad-hoc barricades :(

What's not to like?

cinera
26-04-2007, 15:27
plus sort off suits the fluff of the tallarn

after the huge war with chaos most of their tanks will have been destroyed, which includes sentinels.
So they would have needed a fast replacment to fill in the role of scouts.

then shortly after they had the war with eldar, all the new tanks that had been built would of perished in that war. Then in the midst of their fighting the deamons came.

So im pretty sure the tallarn would of used pretty much would they could of against their new arrival.

Then i guess because they proved usfull in fast strikes they started to use them afterwards, then it eventaully spread to over armies and such.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 15:27
I never said I didn't like them :p

They just seem out of place. Besides, what's the point of Rough Riders if their horse die of exhaustion, or if the men eat them. What are they gonna do then? Charge on foot with lances? :p

cinera
26-04-2007, 15:31
but then necrons shouldnt be bale to get up once you put a lascannon through their head should they? :D

veneto
26-04-2007, 15:36
If you're willing to suspend your disbelief for any of this, I don't see how Rough Riders are too difficult to factor into the world. However, I do believe that the models as they are not cohesive with the Imperial Guard models available.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 15:38
That's something completely different. Necrons are robots. Robots are tougher than humans (though I doubt they could take a Lascannon to the head. In fluff terms anyway.)

Still. Necrons. Completely different. They can't even run, never mind ride a horse.

EDIT: I know this is an entirely made up Universe, where a whole variety of stuff can happen that never would in real-life. But in such a setting, where daemons pop out of every orifice, giant space mushrooms go about smashing things up and generally very big mean looking things are everywhere, ya know, I'm just saying...would you throw cavalry against that?

I wouldn't.

cinera
26-04-2007, 15:40
that wasnt the point i was making, the point is if ancient robots can crawl out of crypts, get shot in the face with a lascannon and get back up again, then why cant you imagine a human riding a horse :p

Ross
26-04-2007, 15:44
But horses have been used to charge gun lines in historic(sp?) times.
True the humble horse does seem a little out of place, personaly I prefer the alien/lizard/wierd mounts. They seem better suited to 40k, but then again I'm a sucker for alien monstrosities (not Nids).

Oh and slightly off topic, bayonets are decoration now days, the geneva convention has banned their use, that and flamethrowers. You can have them for parade, but can't oil them ect. Huh, modern warfare.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 15:48
that wasnt the point i was making, the point is if ancient robots can crawl out of crypts, get shot in the face with a lascannon and get back up again, then why cant you imagine a human riding a horse :p

I can, it just doesn't make sense, but due to the Necrons background and such, within the 40K setting, I can completely accept it.

Ross: Yes. Cavalry have been used a lot in history, but after WW1 (about when the machine gun came in) they became quite, well, obsolete. Before then there weren't rapid fire weapons. Guns were one shot. Most firing lines could probably shoot about 2-4 shots before being charged down. Even then, not all shots would hit their mark.

Coasty
26-04-2007, 15:59
Oh and slightly off topic, bayonets are decoration now days, the geneva convention has banned their use, that and flamethrowers. You can have them for parade, but can't oil them ect. Huh, modern warfare.

This is most assuredly not so. I knew someone who took great pleasure in grossing out new recruits with his tales of making trench-kebabs in the Gulf in '91. They wouldn't be carried in the webbing if they weren't for using.

Stabby Stabby! :D

stecal
26-04-2007, 16:06
If you want less fragile RR just buy them carapace and mount them on feral beasts (sic) per the doctrine in White Dwarf. Then they have a 3+ save like marines. Not sure it is worth the cost though.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 16:09
If you want less fragile RR just buy them carapace and mount them on feral beasts (sic) per the doctrine in White Dwarf. Then they have a 3+ save like marines. Not sure it is worth the cost though.

No, I wouldn't think it was. And I wasn't aware of that Doctrine, but it still wouldn't sway me.

I'm thinking more fluff wise really, I guess.

cinera
26-04-2007, 16:13
well fluff wise look above for my thing on tallarn, does that make any sense?

Blandman
26-04-2007, 16:16
For the Tallarns yes. But they're a very small part of the Imperial Guard. A very, very, very, very, small part. The same thing wouldn't really work in most other places.

Marine_Player
26-04-2007, 16:22
Calvary were used as late as WWII in large numbers mainly in Eastern Europe. They are still used today in a military capacity in mostly resistance or support roles.

Horses and infantry can go places that vehicles can't.

What does seem unlikely in modern warfare is using them in a 'charge.' In real life, rapid firing projectile weapons will take down horses very fast. When the horses go down, the rider goes down and the rider will be stunned or injured.

Horses are used best in a military fashion through their mobility. They could move troops around difficult terrain quickly and allow the troops to dismount and then the troopers can utilize their projectile weapons.

However, 40K is just a game and it seems cool to be able to charge across the field with a horse and lance like the knights of old. It makes the game more fun and adds flavor.

Coasty
26-04-2007, 16:28
However, 40K is just a game and it seems cool to be able to charge across the field with a horse and lance like the knights of old. It makes the game more fun and adds flavor.

But no charging tanks: we all know how that ends!*



*Yes, I know it never really happened, but still, it's an enduring image...

Blandman
26-04-2007, 16:28
Well, I'm a Bretonnian player in WHF, so I get quite enough of charging the enemy with them.

Most of those countries that used cavalry in WW2 weren't as technologically advanced, or a little backward in military terms. And I would imagine horses would be used today as a form of transportation, not combat. I'm not sure of course, but I find it hard to imagine.

Also. Helicopters can go places where horses can't. Why uses horses to get to a certain position when you can drop in from the air?

Quin 242
26-04-2007, 16:30
Fuel costs. Anti-aircraft fire. radar. noise.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 16:35
What about the food for horses and stuff?

And their is plenty of technology to avoid radar, and reduce noise.

Quin 242
26-04-2007, 16:43
there's a great story about the US versus Russia in the space race.

America spent years and years and thousands of dollars on how to get an ink pen to write in space without gravity. They spent another bundle on how to get a pen that would right on grease or non-porous surfaces. Then another bundle on how to make a pen that could do both. After a million or so spent on this wonder pen, they went to the international space station and were showing the nifty thing off to the russian cosmonaught.
They showed that it wrote in space and that it could write on greasy surfaces and on non-porous surfaces.
The russian Cosmonaught agreed that it was indeed a marvelous piece of technology.
The Americans asked him how the Russians had gotten around the problems that they had had.
The cosmonaught pulled a pencil out from behind his ear.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 16:46
Yes. I know that story, thanks. -.-

I question it's relevance to the topic though.

Quin 242
26-04-2007, 16:48
Never mind if you have to question it.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 16:49
What? Is it an implication to me over-complicating things?

cinera
26-04-2007, 16:49
well horses can eat most things in a field, so you only need to pack a little food for the horse and gather some more up in a field while the horse eats anyway.

I mean even if your city fighting, there will still be grassy areas nearby.

edit: quin was saying you dont need expensive hi-tech concealing equipment, when you could just use a horse...

Blandman
26-04-2007, 16:53
Depends what the world is like in general I guess. I mean, for example, you said Tallarns? I doubt there's much grass in the desert. Or the Death Korp. I can't see there being much grass on their planet.

So, yeah, over-complicating things. The point is, in 40,000 stuff like that shouldn't be hi-tech. It should be the norm. Horses are near enough useless now.

cinera
26-04-2007, 16:56
thats why imperial guard are the only ones that use horses, and lets be honest their are only a handful that use horses anyway.
Its not like the forces of cadia do mass cavarly charges is it? just forces like tallarn doing small counter strikes in the rear of an enemy.

Dazzled2u
26-04-2007, 16:58
An unarmoured Rough rider provides Character and model variation for the gamer - realistically it is impractical on most counts as the uber lance would kill the rough rider on detonation.

Trikes with a uber spear thrower mounted on the back - like a modern chariot would be excellent. Faster and just as agile as a horse.

Or an attack vehicle based on a dune buggie design.

A combination of both trike and buggie would provide an excellent fast attack arm to the IG.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 16:59
They could have desert buggies. That would be cool. Desert buggies that run on solar power! I'd buy it.

And lets be honest, fuel can't be that much of a problem. Have you seen the amount of tanks the Imperial Guard have?

Besides, it can't be just a handful if they're in the Codex. There must be a fair few using them.

cinera
26-04-2007, 17:01
but desert buggies arent needed are they, because they have horses, that are cheaper :p

Sekhmet
26-04-2007, 17:02
Oh and slightly off topic, bayonets are decoration now days, the geneva convention has banned their use, that and flamethrowers. You can have them for parade, but can't oil them ect. Huh, modern warfare.

Totally incorrect. The geneva convention doesn't restrict any weapons at all. Other international treaties restrict things like hollow-point bullets, explosive bullets, incendiary weapons (ONLY against civilian targets, military targets are still viable targets for napalm / flame throwers), mines / booby traps, gas and biological weapons...

Can you tell the theme here? It's indiscriminate weapons and those that cause unnecessary harm.

Bayonets have been a standard of warfare since the gun was invented, taking the place of swords and spears for thousands of years before that. How could they ban such a simple, effective and necessary weapon? There's a reason the armed forces still train with bayonets.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 17:05
but desert buggies arent needed are they, because they have horses, that are cheaper :p

You could make a wooden steam powered buggy! Besides, it's not like they'd be that expensive. If they can afford Chimeras then they can afford buggies.

Vote "Yes" for Imperial Guard Buggies! :p

EDIT: Also, they do use bayonets. If not, they'd use a knife, and that's just about the same thing.

BrotherMoses
26-04-2007, 17:05
EDIT: Very true super, but they get used outside of those worlds as well. It just seems a bit, well, mad to send them at a firing line.

Thought for the day: Only the insane have strength enough to prosper :D

superknijn
26-04-2007, 17:05
Maybe they are very common?
Maybe you don't see the point in using them, but an Imperial officer might.
The amount of 'feral' planets shouldn't be understated, there are quite a few, as well as planets where it is tradition.

It may seem unlikely in our world, but don't forget that this is the Warhammer 40K setting we're talking about; alot (if not the majority of) things do not make sense. If you were to live in the Warhammer 40K universe, and used logic, you'd probably end up dead.

Sekhmet
26-04-2007, 17:09
there's a great story about the US versus Russia in the space race.

America spent years and years and thousands of dollars on how to get an ink pen to write in space without gravity. They spent another bundle on how to get a pen that would right on grease or non-porous surfaces. Then another bundle on how to make a pen that could do both. After a million or so spent on this wonder pen, they went to the international space station and were showing the nifty thing off to the russian cosmonaught.
They showed that it wrote in space and that it could write on greasy surfaces and on non-porous surfaces.
The russian Cosmonaught agreed that it was indeed a marvelous piece of technology.
The Americans asked him how the Russians had gotten around the problems that they had had.
The cosmonaught pulled a pencil out from behind his ear.

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

It's not a true story, but... the anecdote is good to remember. Except it doesn't quite work. Ok, at least it's kind of funny.



And roughriders do make sense.. remember, the game is basically a strange version of World War 2.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 17:10
Maybe they are very common?
Maybe you don't see the point in using them, but an Imperial officer might.
The amount of 'feral' planets shouldn't be understated, there are quite a few, as well as planets where it is tradition.

It may seem unlikely in our world, but don't forget that this is the Warhammer 40K setting we're talking about; alot (if not the majority of) things do not make sense. If you were to live in the Warhammer 40K universe, and used logic, you'd probably end up dead.

Damn...erm...damn...you got me there man.

Quickly reverted to something that you've previously stated!

Tallarn isn't a feral planet, but they still use them. Heh..he...silly Tallarn.

I'd probably end up dead even if I didn't use logic.

Still. Imperial Guard buggies would be nice. In my opinion anyway.

cinera
26-04-2007, 17:13
yes they could make buggies, but chimeras that carry troops to the battles and have lots of guns are much more valuble than a 4 seater buggy that could probably carry a heavy bolter if it was lucky...

Blandman
26-04-2007, 17:14
If a reasonably strong man can carry a Heavy Bolter, then I don't see why you couldn't put a few onto a buggy. Or even Heavy Stubbers.

Besides, they mount heavy weapons on buggies even now. I couldn't see that as much of a problem.

cinera
26-04-2007, 17:18
ok but your missing my point, the buggies are not needed.
the chimeras are needed because of their transport capability, and it would steal be more heavily armed and armoured than a jeep.

Besides all the metal they get are put towards the real warmachines like basalisks, baneblades the many varient sof the leman russ...

they already have sentinels and wild riders for the scout role, why would they need a jeep?

Coasty
26-04-2007, 17:23
Er...same reason our Army use Landies or those little buggies whose name I always forget (air mobile chappies use them) rather than Warriors for recce: they're nippy and carry everything they need for their role far more cost effectively than a larger machine.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 17:23
To look cooler? I thought that would be obvious.

And, as I think I've made clear, I'd choose a buggy or a jeep over horses any day. Also, Sentinels don't seem to be able to move very far for "scouts".

But I see I'm a minority in that view.

cinera
26-04-2007, 17:26
let me start of by saying:
Coasty... what are you on about?

and well yes your entitled to your opionon, but i quite like the idea of a cavarly charge because its different that most things in 40k

Blandman
26-04-2007, 17:29
I'm just guessing, but I think he's saying that, they're tougher (and faster) than infantry or horses, but not too heavy, like a Chimera and such...maybe...I think.

You know, fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee? That kind of stuff.

Coasty
26-04-2007, 17:31
Well the Chimera is an APC. It's a waste of a good machine to divert supplies of it into a role for which it isn't designed. Just about every modern army operates light recce or multipurpose vehicles similar to the Landrover or jeep. The IG are strangely lacking in that respect.

EDIT: Yes, the lepidoptera/ hymenoptera thing is more or less what I was gettig at. :D

Blandman
26-04-2007, 17:33
Yeah. I guess it's because they're more orientated to mass infantry pushes. Though I don't see why a few specialized regiments couldn't be out-fitted with buggies, jeeps, or another light reconnaissance vehicle.

EDIT: Lepi-what? Hymen-who now?

cinera
26-04-2007, 17:35
well i guess thats mainly because of game terms perhaps, we couldnt have menouverable (sp?) guard now could we?

Templar Ben
26-04-2007, 17:37
but desert buggies arent needed are they, because they have horses, that are cheaper :p

Maintaining a horse is not all that cheaper. If the buggy is using the same fuel as the other vehicles and the maintenance is much like the other vehicles the cost of keeping the vehicle drops dramatically.


Totally incorrect. The geneva convention doesn't restrict any weapons at all. Other international treaties restrict things like hollow-point bullets, explosive bullets, incendiary weapons (ONLY against civilian targets, military targets are still viable targets for napalm / flame throwers), mines / booby traps, gas and biological weapons...

Can you tell the theme here? It's indiscriminate weapons and those that cause unnecessary harm.

Bayonets have been a standard of warfare since the gun was invented, taking the place of swords and spears for thousands of years before that. How could they ban such a simple, effective and necessary weapon? There's a reason the armed forces still train with bayonets.

In the US, the training with bayonets is not because they are used on the field of battle but because they are a fun way to build a warrior ethos. Just like marching in formation serves no direct combat purpose as we never march into battle but it is good at teaching discipline. Fixing a bayonet will drop your accuracy because it throws off your weapon balance and it changes the point of impact of the rounds fired due to weapon drop in firing.

The last US battallion sized bayonet charge was in 1951. The UK guys have much more use of that tactic. It may be a difference in equipment and training more than anything else.


You could make a wooden steam powered buggy! Besides, it's not like they'd be that expensive. If they can afford Chimeras then they can afford buggies.

Vote "Yes" for Imperial Guard Buggies! :p

EDIT: Also, they do use bayonets. If not, they'd use a knife, and that's just about the same thing.

I definately want IG buggies. I showed pics of the DPVs in another thread. Bayonets are used as knives now among US forces. In fact when used with the sheath it makes a great wirecutter.


If a reasonably strong man can carry a Heavy Bolter, then I don't see why you couldn't put a few onto a buggy. Or even Heavy Stubbers.

Besides, they mount heavy weapons on buggies even now. I couldn't see that as much of a problem.

Well I think it should be able to carry an autocannon. Maybe we should start a "what we want in the next IG codex" now. :D IG will be out right before DE right? :p I kid, I kid.

Coasty
26-04-2007, 17:40
Well, we dropped large-scale charges around about the Somme, but we still seem to prefer the idea of getting into the bugger's trench with him and messing him up good and proper to the Americans' more shooty approach.

cinera
26-04-2007, 17:40
actually the more i argue against it, the more i fall in love with the prospect of guard buggies...

Blandman
26-04-2007, 17:41
Hmm. Could you give me a link to those pictures? I'd certainly like to see them.

Jokes aside right, I think having a "buggy" type unit for the Imperial Guard would be a good idea. I mean, why not? Add it in as a Doctrine maybe? Like I said, I see no reason why a specialized regiment wouldn't use them.

EDIT: Wait. Since when could Americans shoot straight anyway? :p (I'm kidding, seriously. Don't hurt me.)

EDIT2: That's right cinera. Join us. We have a buffet!

ancient_conflict
26-04-2007, 17:43
cavalry was used in the second world war though not the headlong charging type.

most cavalry men probably dismount before a battle and a select few stay mounted as a rapid counter-attack force

cinera
26-04-2007, 17:44
i might do it aswell for my new tallarn, make it like armour 11 front 10 side and rear. Give it an autocannon or another gun and make it 50 points.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 17:46
Well, the best way to make it actually legal would be to use the Chimera rules set and just not put troops in it. That's the best I can think of anyway.

DesertDirge
26-04-2007, 17:47
whatever the argument.. I'd love an army of Rough Riders!!

Blandman
26-04-2007, 17:48
Okay, now, if I could make an entire army of Rough Riders, then I'd have no qualms :p

Templar Ben
26-04-2007, 17:50
Well, we dropped large-scale charges around about the Somme, but we still seem to prefer the idea of getting into the bugger's trench with him and messing him up good and proper to the Americans' more shooty approach.

There is a lot to be said for that approach. It has worked after all. ;)


Hmm. Could you give me a link to those pictures? I'd certainly like to see them.

Jokes aside right, I think having a "buggy" type unit for the Imperial Guard would be a good idea. I mean, why not? Add it in as a Doctrine maybe? Like I said, I see no reason why a specialized regiment wouldn't use them.

Sure thing

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Desert_Patrol_Vehicle.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/dpv_lsvbugg.jpg

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/imgs/dpv.jpg

superknijn
26-04-2007, 17:51
Although I'd like IG Buggies (I just like everything IG vehicle-related), they don't really fit in with most of the Guard armies, as they're not massive, mobile yet slow, like most other things. The only thing that's geniunly fast (not mobile, fast) is the Salamander, and even that thing is more a tank than anything.

Than again, you can also say that of Rough Riders. ;) They're more a leftover from previous editions, left in as tradition. I personally would never use them, but to see the option removed would deter from the overall 'varied' theme the Guard list has.

Templar Ben
26-04-2007, 17:51
Here are some more you can only put so many pics at a time.

http://www.chenowth.com/img/mainwindow/dpv.jpg

http://www.chenowth.com/img/New/DPV.jpg

That last one has a DPV (Desert Patrol Vehicle) followed by a ALSV (Advanced Light Strike Vehicle). They both can have either a M2 (.50 cal) or a M19 (40mm grenade launcher).

http://www.chenowth.com/alsv.jpg

obithius
26-04-2007, 17:54
Hey,don't be questioning the cavalry within earshot of the Catachan CXIV Hermit Frog Rough Riders..!

Blandman
26-04-2007, 17:55
Thanks Templar. Those are some awesome pictures and just reinforces my opinion. I could totally see an army like the Tallarn's or something having a vehicle like that.

super: I could see them being put in specialized regiments. I mean, Catachans can't have tanks at all. I don't see why buggies would be too far of a stretch to put in.

EDIT: Oh no! Not the...the...the frog riders! *hops in buggy and drives away*

Sekhmet
26-04-2007, 17:57
In the US, the training with bayonets is not because they are used on the field of battle but because they are a fun way to build a warrior ethos. Just like marching in formation serves no direct combat purpose as we never march into battle but it is good at teaching discipline. Fixing a bayonet will drop your accuracy because it throws off your weapon balance and it changes the point of impact of the rounds fired due to weapon drop in firing.

The last US battallion sized bayonet charge was in 1951. The UK guys have much more use of that tactic. It may be a difference in equipment and training more than anything else.


It's not about a bayonet charge across a field, it's about building confidence with your weapon and all its functions, including its use as a stabbing weapon when no other option presents itself. Of course you wouldn't fix bayonets all the time, you'd fix them when, say, you're out of ammo and expecting close fighting, a truly desperate situation. A bayonet on a rifle is a far better close combat weapon than just a knife.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 17:59
A bayonet on a rifle is a far better close combat weapon than just a knife.

Due to it giving you a longer reach, is that right?

Sekhmet
26-04-2007, 18:14
Yep. You can kill someone with a bayonet that's out of arm's reach, whereas a knife requires you to get quite close.

Templar Ben
26-04-2007, 18:19
It's not about a bayonet charge across a field, it's about building confidence with your weapon and all its functions, including its use as a stabbing weapon when no other option presents itself. Of course you wouldn't fix bayonets all the time, you'd fix them when, say, you're out of ammo and expecting close fighting, a truly desperate situation. A bayonet on a rifle is a far better close combat weapon than just a knife.

I understand the part about building confidence in your weapons. I have been is combat at or about close contact and I thankfully never had to worry about using a bayonet. I am most thankful because I always brought a Spyderco instead. ;)


Due to it giving you a longer reach, is that right?

Correct. It is in effect a very heavy short spear.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 18:21
Hey. Would you guys happen to know anywhere I might get myself some bits and such to make a Imperial Guard buggy? I'm seriously considering making one now.

Templar Ben
26-04-2007, 18:23
Does this need to be 51% GW?

Quin 242
26-04-2007, 18:24
Plenty of examples on MANY different boards of the Land Speeder turned buggy

do a search here

Blandman
26-04-2007, 18:25
I'm not quite sure what you mean. I would essentially just make the buggy "shell" or something similar and more bulky, then add some things to give it a 40K spin.

EDIT: I wouldn't really want to convert the Land Speeder. Though it suits the Space Marines, I would want something more..."industrial" looking for the Guard.

Templar Ben
26-04-2007, 18:31
PM sent Blandman before we take this off topic too bad and get a mod spanking.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 18:32
get a mod spanking.

Sounds kinky. I'm game if you are. (I'm sorry. I couldn't pass off the chance to say that.)

Bunnahabhain
26-04-2007, 19:25
Empire pistoliers make very good Rough Riders. My regiment has 34 and counting at the moment, including a mounted officer and commisar.

In friendly games I sometimes use them as a troops platoons, as per a 2nd ed force, where you could use RR as troops so long as you brought the command platoon...

Quin 242
26-04-2007, 19:29
waiting for GW to adopt "Mounted" as a doctrine to allow RR as Troops and the option to mount the Command :)

It should have been in the codex :(

swordwind
26-04-2007, 19:43
Cavalry charges were used quite effectivly by the Polish in WW2. Get a few cavalry in amongst a tank formation with anti-tank weapons and they're be able to wreak havoc as the tank turrets cant turn fast enough to keep a steady aim on the horse or risk firing at thier own tanks. Of couse the cavalry actually had to get to the tanks first...

And bayonet charges were used by the British in the last Gulf War (2003).

See, sometimes old tactics have thier uses.

Templar Ben
26-04-2007, 19:52
Cavalry charges were used quite effectivly by the Polish in WW2. Get a few cavalry in amongst a tank formation with anti-tank weapons and they're be able to wreak havoc as the tank turrets cant turn fast enough to keep a steady aim on the horse or risk firing at thier own tanks. Of couse the cavalry actually had to get to the tanks first...

And bayonet charges were used by the British in the last Gulf War (2003).

See, sometimes old tactics have thier uses.

Yes that is why I was very clear about US forces choosing to not use that tactic. :cool:

There are a lot of doctrines I would like to see in the new Codex:IG

The Highlander
26-04-2007, 20:04
Imperial Guard general: We need you to raid this enemy supply dump 300 miles behind their lines. The only way to get to it without being killed is to march 500 miles though this hilly, wooded and rocky land here. Also due to enemy air cover we will be unable to supply you after you leave our base.

Imperial Guard Tank Commander: That’s impossible! Out tanks will never make it though all those woods and rocks! We’d need a major overall by the time we were half way there and we would never be able to carry enough fuel to last us all that way and back!

Imperial Guard Rough Rider Commander: No problem at all. Our horses will be able to cross that terrain without any difficulty, we can feed the horses on the grass and ourselves on whatever we can find or hunt. Best of all, we won’t be likely to get spotted my enemy air recon.

That’s why the guard still use cavalry.

Egfy
26-04-2007, 20:08
heres a news article that mentions US troops using horses in Afghanistan

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-10-07-afghan-lessons_x.htm

Kegluneq
26-04-2007, 20:31
That's actually a pretty good example of how Rough Riders should be implemented in 40k - as fast moving spotter units, coordinating artillery fire. I still like the idea of lance strikes though...

Stupid question time - do Rough Riders have Hit and Run? I don't have the Guard codex, but it would make sense if they did. :/

Sekhmet
26-04-2007, 20:51
No they dont.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 21:29
Imperial Guard general: We need you to raid this enemy supply dump 300 miles behind their lines. The only way to get to it without being killed is to march 500 miles though this hilly, wooded and rocky land here. Also due to enemy air cover we will be unable to supply you after you leave our base.

Imperial Guard Tank Commander: That’s impossible! Out tanks will never make it though all those woods and rocks! We’d need a major overall by the time we were half way there and we would never be able to carry enough fuel to last us all that way and back!

Imperial Guard Rough Rider Commander: No problem at all. Our horses will be able to cross that terrain without any difficulty, we can feed the horses on the grass and ourselves on whatever we can find or hunt. Best of all, we won’t be likely to get spotted my enemy air recon.

That’s why the guard still use cavalry.

That would be such a rare and unlikely thing. And it still doesn't explain why they would use them in a full on battle.

Duhgame
26-04-2007, 21:39
I think you may be reading too much into a sci-fi game. No offense, but it is fictional (or is it? ;)) and the creators have all the liberties in design that they want. On the fun "but just wondering why still?" part you can look to modern application and the fact that if you were in the IG would you rather be:

A. Conscript on foot who will get shot if he doesn't run fast enough.
or
B. Got on horseback who can get the heck out a bad situation if needed?

I would go "B" since my survival would probably be higher.
Just my 2 cents.

Blandman
26-04-2007, 21:46
Yeah, until you get shot by your own side for deserting. And I'll answer the first part of your post with...seriously...have you looked around these forums? It's what we come here for man :p

Corrupt
26-04-2007, 22:01
Due to it giving you a longer reach, is that right?

Know it was a few pages back...BUT
Empty rifle=stick
Empty rifle with bayonet=Spear
Spear > Stick :P

Rough riders FTW!

Now there are the sweet DKoK riders out I gonna shoe horn 2 squadrons into my IG army. Bin waiting sooooo long for these guys!

Elcampbello
26-04-2007, 22:47
I think the problem is that people are seeing 40K as SciFi rather than Space Fantasy in genre. In Space Fantasy, physics and common sence can be warped to fit the story!

Minister
26-04-2007, 23:06
Place an armoured regiment on garison duty on a colony world with solar cells to recharge lasguns and bountiful food sources. Come back two hundred later, you have a colony with mothballed tanks and hoarded ammunition. Place a rough rider regiment on garison duty on a colony world with solar cells to recharge lasguns and bountiful food sources. Come back two hundred later, you have a colony with a rough rider regiment garison and native mounted militia.

Supply chains are important. Especially when they don't exist.

Davout
26-04-2007, 23:47
I see Rough Riders as a very legit part of the 40K Universe for all the above mentioned reasons. Now saying that, I firmly believe the regular GW models need an update, as cool as the Attilans (spelling?) are they need to be redone.

The Death Korp guys are great, and fit my vision of 40K Horsemen very well.

As for real world examples the above mentioned US Special Forces work in Afganistan is the most recent. In addition there is this great book called "On the Roads of War" its all about a Soviet Cavalry officer during WWII. He spent his war with a Guards Cavalry division towing an anti tank gun. His unit would exploit any breakthrough the grunts made and charge on through. They would unlimber the gun and shoot the counter attaking German Panzers. Great book

Blandman
26-04-2007, 23:56
I know, I know. But as far as I've, Rough Riders aren't used for such things. They aren't used for small operations or towing guns. They're always charging headlong at the enemy line. Madness!

EDIT: Also, if anyone knows somewhere I could get bits from for an IG buggy, give me a PM. I really want to make one now :p

GreenDracoBob
27-04-2007, 01:18
As I see it, Rough Riders are a great idea for the 40k universe. Though the Imperium first expanded after an age of technology, it doesn't always go so well after that. There are no few worlds in the Emperor's domain that have regressed to a more basic form of technology. On these worlds, horses or other beasts would be in more common use than machines. When they send out a Guard regiment, it will include calvary out of nessecity or habit. This is how I see the Rough Riders in the most common sense.

A place like Krieg, on the other hand, is harder to explain. We used cavalry in WWI, as you have said, and Krieg is based off of those armies. Once again, it may be nessecity, in some regards, due to the lack of production during their civil war. Or maybe a unit that can react quickly to enemies charging/anti-tank role, as tanks would be busy crossing No Man's Land to smash people and armor in the trench systems.

Maguni
27-04-2007, 01:23
if you give a rough rider a lance thing, how many attacks does he get on a charge? only 2?

ArtificerArmour
27-04-2007, 02:26
I believe it's 2 attacks that ignore armour saves.

If you don't like rough riders, don't pick the rough rider doctrine. Simple. For the rest of us who like a counter charge unit that punches above it's weight, we'll keep them. But how can you question the use of horses when the same army utilises midgets, giants, bipedal walking machines and priests with armour piercing chainsaws?

Blandman
27-04-2007, 02:43
I never said I didn't like them, I just don't see the sense in them.

Also, most of the things you just mentioned then are either tough enough to charge an enemy line, or don't need to charge at all.

ArtificerArmour
27-04-2007, 03:37
I never said I didn't like them, I just don't see the sense in them.

Why? They are a perfect addition to the guard army. Not overly powerful, and if used wisely can change the outcome of a game.


Also, most of the things you just mentioned then are either tough enough to charge an enemy line, or don't need to charge at all.

Hardly.

Ogryns have a 5+ save and no power weapons. Their increased toughness hardly defends them against a well organised defence, whilst priests don't actually have any armour (or perhaps 6+, I forget) and are armed (if you so choose) with a weapon which requires them to strike last in close combat.

In fact, all those suggestions have been panned by guard armies for being too weak to be any real use to an IG army, being a points sink. Whilst overall IG commanders are actually very fond of the men on geegees.

You've seemed to miss the point that I was making, in that flavour wise, if an army is willing to field all sorts of wierd mutants and frothing madmen - why would they shirk at the use of a horse?

You're just like Hywel, you're equestist, unreasonable malice aimed against the common horse :(

Stormhammers
27-04-2007, 04:06
the Poles used cavalry on horseback in WW2, and contrary to popular belief, they were sucessful to some degree. Ultimately they were no match for the german mechanized juggernaut. Look up Polish Cavalry charges on wikipedia, it's pretty interesting. I prefer motorcycles as my rough riders, check out wargamesfoundry.com, they got some nice german biker models

cailus
27-04-2007, 05:35
Also note that in the 40K universe the rules of 21st century warfare are largely ignored. There is generally no respect for life of either the enemy or friendlies.

Most races don't use modern mechanised military tactics. Tyranids for example rely on a flood of bodies and not so much on ranged attacks. Ork firepower is generally useless and Orks prefer to rush into combat. Both loyalist and Chaos marines often have a preference for close combat. The Eldar too have their close combat specialists.

So Rough Riders do play a role. I suspect they would act as counter-assault units that is once the infantry has been engaged in close quarter fighting, the Rough Riders would assault. They would also be used for reconaissance as well.

Khaine's Messenger
27-04-2007, 06:42
You've seemed to miss the point that I was making, in that flavour wise, if an army is willing to field all sorts of wierd mutants and frothing madmen - why would they shirk at the use of a horse?

That's pretty much it, really. It's not that this is a universe of madness and so anything goes...it's just that Rough Riders have a notable use (scouts, harassing the enemy in large swathes of terrain; per the Epic: Armageddon book), there are worlds that train them, and the Imperial Guard not only has room for their presence but has used them to great effect. Will they inevitably be fed into a horrible meat-grinder from which no man or animal can emerge alive? Could be; the generic infantry regiment typically ends up ground up and burned out if you believe the background. Imperial generals are infamous for not caring about the special abilities of their men and just treating them like so many warm bodies; the difference between horses and IFVs is just a numbers game for their logisticians....

Barbarossa
27-04-2007, 06:49
Yes, it doesn't make sense to send RR against a firing line. But the same can be said about Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Berzerkers, SM and CSM close combat units, almost all Tyranid and Ork units and whatever else I have forgotten. Every army in this game has a dedicated CC unit which just charges at the enemy. So it does make sense to have a countercharge unit for the guard.

Svenson
27-04-2007, 12:25
But, why would we have sentinels then? As a unit their all together completely useless, for much the same reasons as horses. Their not fast, they don't hold any particularily nasty weapons. Walkers in general have a tendency to fall over in rough terrain, a buggy would be much better. They are included purely because they look cool! Who wouldn't want to do a charge of the light brigade across a field while death rains down on them?

Blandman
27-04-2007, 13:14
Okay, I'll say again maybe? I never never said I didn't like Rough Riders, I just personally can't see the real use of them in such a setting. And why, someone asked. All you have to do is look back at my posts for that answer.

And on the topic of tougher units. Ogryns and Priests certainly are tougher. They have more wounds, more attacks, better strength in the long run. Also, the Priest can have a 4+ Invulnerable save, so there we go.

Also, about other CC units in other armies. It's a bit silly to mention them, especially Orks and Tyranids, because not only are there vast numbers of them, but they're actually built for CC. And both Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines (most notably Berserkers) are really strong, really fast, well trained, heavily armed, super humans. There isn't any comparison. The only thing the Rough Riders have going for them is the +2 strength, even that's only when they charge.

Again, Sentinels. It's different. Okay. If you don't consider a Lasconnon, or an Autocannon lethal, well...I don't know man, sounds a bit silly to me. They can move 6 inches before the game even starts, and they're actually pretty good at tying units up in CC. If you think they're useless, then you're either using them in a less efficient way, or someone you watched is using them in an equally inefficient way.

Lastly, lets compare it to other armies fast striking units shall we? Space Marines and Chaos. Bikes. Okay. Seriously, a horse, is not going to stand up against bikes, no chance. Eldar and Dark Eldar. Jetbikes! Not just normal bikes, even faster bikes. Again, no chance in hell. Tau, I believe their fast moving unit is a piranha right? Same result. Again, Land Speeders. Hell, even Orks have bikes. Orks for crying out loud! The only armies I haven't mentioned would be Tyranids, because all of their units are fast, and you don't want to be in CC with them as the Guard. And lastly Necrons, because they don't need fast units, and you don't want to go into CC with them either!

And lets take it out of fluff and put it on the table top. You can't use them for recon then, can you? So what good are they? What are they going to do? You say, make a counter-charge, but any smart player would gun them down before they had the chance!

Quin 242
27-04-2007, 15:20
if you give a rough rider a lance thing, how many attacks does he get on a charge? only 2?

ONLY two?
S5 power weapon attacks? Who else in the IG army gets that? This is why RR are feared. On a charge, an IG squad can DECIMATE a MEQ or even a terminator squad.
Oh, and the Vet Srg gets 3 :)

But once they've blown the lances they get REAL useless... They become mobile laspistols :(

Inquisitor Maul
27-04-2007, 17:54
ONLY two?
S5 power weapon attacks? Who else in the IG army gets that? This is why RR are feared. On a charge, an IG squad can DECIMATE a MEQ or even a terminator squad.
Oh, and the Vet Srg gets 3 :)

But once they've blown the lances they get REAL useless... They become mobile laspistols :(

3 attacks each (4 for the Sergent) is nothing to snort at, expecialy in the hand of someone who knows how to use the mobility of Rough Riders to their advantage. Picking on Heavy weapon teams, attacking tanks with bombs/grenades and such. They sure have their uses even without the lances.

Bunnahabhain
27-04-2007, 18:00
2 S5 power weapon attacks, at a decent initave , with a 19-24" charge, for 11 points each. That's not useful?? Bit of mathhammer. 1 RR charging will kill 2/3 assault marines, or 8/18 of a terminator.

The once use bit makes them not nearly as good as other armies fast striking units, because a) they're cheaper than others, and b) They're Guardsmen. They're not supposed to be that good individually.

If they scare your enemy then they stay out of charge range of the RR, spooking the enemy. It's beating them without even going into combat. Alternativley, they spend alot of firepower killing one unit, leaving your other units untouched. You win either way.

incarna
27-04-2007, 19:30
I had an IG army that had 3 squads of 10 rough riders and they were consistently the best performing unit on the table vs marines, chaos, or necrons. I sold the army on e-bay a few months back but part of me regrets that decision. It was fun to slap 30 rough riders down on the table and see the confused look in my opponents eyes; “I’ve never seen THOSE before… let alone so many… I wonder what they do.”

Regardless, my army theme was World War 1 style army. The planet my army came from was stuck at World War 1 level technology. That’s how I justified the inclusion of Rough Riders.

But including horse-mounted infantry in a 40k army is completely justifiable when you take a step back and look at the big picture. People have made good points about maneuverability, stealth, maintenance, etc. but the real crux of the issue is this;

The wars of the 41st millennium are usually not fought for land or resources. The battles of each war are fought for these things… but the heart of the WAR is for survival. Imagine your planet is being descended upon by millions, perhaps billions of nightmarish Tyrinids or overgrown with Orcs, or infested with vile Chaos. Your job is not only to hold the planet, but to SURVIVE. You would throw EVERYTHING you had at these creatures. Every man, woman, and child would be armed. Anyone capable of fighting would be given every resource possible to fight… which includes horses… which are cheap, expendable, and easily replaceable… I doubt enemy orbital bombardments are targeting horse farms… they’re targeting manufacturing facilities.

Hell, if it comes down to it, the people who own animal shelters on Earth would release their hoard of puppies and kittens against the nids if for no other reason than to slow the monsters down.

Quin 242
27-04-2007, 19:41
I play with 20 Squats on bikes or trikes as rough riders.

One unit with lances and the other without but with two flamers.

They do well :)

I have enough models for another 10 but I REALLY like my hellhound :)

Watcher666
27-04-2007, 19:47
crazy humans with uber lancers on genetically engineered super horses, see doesnt that sound more 40k? =P

Bunnahabhain
27-04-2007, 20:22
crazy humans with uber lancers on genetically engineered super horses, see doesnt that sound more 40K?

It does, but the marines really don't need any more units....

ctsteel
28-04-2007, 11:32
I'm a fan of the rough riders concept - I have just started putting together an IG force to use as allies for my inquisition. The central theme piece will be a unit of RR modelled around the valkyrie warrior women of Norse mythology.

I'm also planning the rest of the army around the 'charge of the light brigade' style force from WW1 and such - my plan is to have a basilisk at the rear lobbing indirect fire, mortar crews providing similar support, to keep the enemy's head down or force him out into the open, at which point my rough rider squadrons charge into them with hunting lances. For me its more about the fun of that kind of force/imagery than any particular competitive force - imagine the cavalry charging headlong into the enemy, their bullets flying past, while the artillery to the rear is raining shells down on the enemy front lines. Fantastic stuff.

@ Blandman - insaniak here on the forums has made a 40k IG buggy in the past, I've seen pics of it on his site and up for auction on eBay.

Link - http://www.underthecouch.net/utc/modules.php?set_albumName=album06&id=groundhog1c_001&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

(obviously the design and images are his property, if you want some help with the design I suggest you contact him)

Chaos and Evil
28-04-2007, 12:29
Rough Riders are perfectly appropriate to a game where the main method of killing the enemy is to charge at them and hit them with your chainsaw-swords.

Svenson
28-04-2007, 14:03
Again, Sentinels. It's different. Okay. If you don't consider a Lasconnon, or an Autocannon lethal, well...I don't know man, sounds a bit silly to me. They can move 6 inches before the game even starts, and they're actually pretty good at tying units up in CC. If you think they're useless, then you're either using them in a less efficient way, or someone you watched is using them in an equally inefficient way.

Ok, I may have been wrong about them being useless. But as people have pointed out rough riders are also far from useless. Your argument seems to be that Rough Riders are not suited to battlefields of the 41st millenium, but in the same way neither are sentinels, they may look cool. But walkers are not a viable option, if they were we'd have them in todays armies. They simply don't work.

But then, why have anything in these battles? The best way would be to evacuate the world and then exterminatus it! But I think we all agree that would be a very boring game, the reason they and most other things are in this game is too look cool

Blandman
28-04-2007, 14:22
Okay. I've seen Rough Riders used once where I go to game, and I've been going for around six years. In that one time I saw them, they were gunned down before they could even do anything. Any player that knows what they're facing will gun them down as well. Unlike most other fast attack units, they don't have any amazing armour saves to stop them from being slaughtered.

I personally, would really like to see a new IG option, to make an entire regiment of Rough Riders. That would be awesome. Your opponent wouldn't know which way to look. But unless that happens, even three squads of ten men will get cut down, unless you move them through cover, but that sacrifices their fast moving capability.

Also, Chaos and Evil, I don't know what game you're playing, but I prefer to stand back and let my guns do the work ;)

Again, I see this "Sentinels are useless" argument. No reasons come along with it though. Like I've said before, you can't be using them to their full efficiency if you think that. They've saved me a fair few times.

ctsteel: Thanks for that man, I'll see if he's willing to help. Also, I believe you meant the Crimean War with the Charge of the Light Brigade :)

Wolfsbane
28-04-2007, 14:28
Do rough riders only fit the single role of counter-attack/suicide rush units? I know they can take lasguns instead of their melee combo as well as a special weapon.

So would fleeting lasgun support be useful, maybe give them a plasma gun. The sarg could be given a storm bolter or plasma pistol. Has anyone tried this, or is it just a waste of points for highly mobile fire-support?

Fear is the mind killer
28-04-2007, 14:42
In the far future armour has been improved so much that close assault armies are viable again. When these close assault heavily armoured infantry can land a few feet away and quickly assault you, the ability to take a fast-moving squad with armour-piercing weapons becomes a very effective defense.

ctsteel
28-04-2007, 14:45
Also, I believe you meant the Crimean War with the Charge of the Light Brigade :)

Are you referring to the poem the Charge of the Light Brigade, which (from looking it up just now) was written circa 1870 so would have been from that era? I was thinking more the Australian light horse brigade, but the poem's imagery is just as good :)

The australian light horse charge (and the movie The Lighthorsemen which is based on it) is the main memory I have that is my inspiration. Re that charge (taken from wikipedia):


On October 31, 1917, as part of the Sinai and Palestine campaign during World War I, the Australian 4th Light Horse Brigade, under Brigadier General William Grant, charged more than four miles at the Turkish trenches, overran them and captured the wells at Beersheba. This is often reported as the last successful cavalry charge in history.

Svenson
28-04-2007, 14:47
Again, I see this "Sentinels are useless" argument. No reasons come along with it though. Like I've said before, you can't be using them to their full efficiency if you think that. They've saved me a fair few times.

Erm... If you read my last post I said that I was probably wrong about sentinels being useless.

My argument is that they are not viable, mechs with only 2 legs would not work on your typical battlefield: They are too unstable and would fall over on any rough terrain, add to this the fact that the amount of energy required to make them work is more than a buggy, so why not just use one of those?

Once again, I am not saying sentinels are useless, I am saying that mech's/walkers or anything else that is manufactured to walk around on 2 legs is not a good idea on a battlefield!

Blandman
28-04-2007, 15:00
That's a little different to what I'm saying Svenson. Still, I can see where you're coming from. But then, having horses isn't a good idea when there are guns that can melt your entire body in a second, and giant monsters roaming about. Personally, I'd prefer a walker with a big gun than a horse and a lance.

And again, if we're talking about buggies, they'd be better than Sentinels and horses. So why not just use those instead of either units?

ctsteel: A right. I wasn't aware of that. You learn something new everyday. Thanks for that.

Chaos and Evil
28-04-2007, 15:07
Also, Chaos and Evil, I don't know what game you're playing, but I prefer to stand back and let my guns do the work

I was merely making a comment as to the fun hyper-real nature of 40k... Rough Riders are perfectly believable opponents for Daemon princes and 8ft tall sociopaths in power armour. :)

Blandman
28-04-2007, 15:11
Oh yes, I could certainly see them charging those things, and dying, very quickly, but extremely horribly and painful. Yes. I can certainly see it :p

ancient_conflict
28-04-2007, 17:50
What about the food for horses and stuff?

And their is plenty of technology to avoid radar, and reduce noise.

can i just point out one little point of info that the yanks dont like getting out.

when they when to show us the stealth planes they sent over a B2 stealth bomber, one of the most technologically advanced planes in the world. they rang the UK military to inform us that "they where coming into land in about 10 mins" (note the runway was already prept) the reply to this was "we know we have been watching it on radar for the last half an hour"

theres no such thing as true stealth it can just make it difficult

Bunnahabhain
28-04-2007, 17:51
They do indeed die soon after charging those assorted nasties, but a few seconds after their shaped charge has blown one a large hole through the one of the other gribblies, which is much more than use than the standard guardsmens response to them, which is merely to die in large numbers.

Sometimes, they even succeed in wiping out the unit they hit, and so living to die stupidly] in an heroic fashion at a later date.

madd0ct0r
28-04-2007, 19:24
Sentinals are designed for scouting in very rough terrian where buggies or bikes wouldn't be able to go (at least not without having to be carried)
Rough riders fufil a simialr role but are far less relient on technical support, but are more fragile. Also, the taliban defeated the russians in afgahnistan using pack mules instead of tanks.
Yes these units weren't and shouldn't be being used in a pitched battle, but don't forget the extremely close range size of the board. Like I'm sure somebody mentioned, that close, a fast unit with armour bursters can wreak havoc on a tank division.
It's a bit like a bayonet charge, it does have it's uses but only sometimes.

Eidolon
28-04-2007, 19:45
They don't make much sense imho, but it seems GW has a soft spot for Mongols (They even added them in LOTR for crying out loud).

Dtrik
29-04-2007, 00:02
I love the idea of Rough Riders just because its such a glorified and romantic vision of war and glory that is so rarely seen in the grim universe of 40k. It doesn't get much more romantic then a horseback charge against the odds! :D

cinera
29-04-2007, 00:12
romantic wouldnt be my choice of words. Just very brave and heroic!!

i guess the main reason they added rough riders in was probably to give the IG some fast counter attacking units.
It probably has nothing to do with the fluff what so ever.

Blandman
29-04-2007, 01:07
But the thing is, Imperial Guard should be keeping any enemies at arms length (Bar Tau. Then you get up close and personal to them grey face pansies! ;) ). The only reason Guardsmen should move forward is to bring their full firing power to bare! Of course, there'll be Deep Striking enemies, but sheer numbers should suffice to tackle them. And any enemy fast attacks should be dealt with A-sap.

I'm not sure about you guys, but I very rarely send my Guardsmen into combat, unless it is an absolute necessary.

Wolfsbane
29-04-2007, 01:08
Ok, I'll ask again now that I have an avatar.

Has anyone fielded Rough Riders as fast moving fire support? Aka, fleet of hoof with lasguns/special weapons?

Blandman
29-04-2007, 01:15
Oh sorry, I didn't see your post. Erm...well...as is evident, I never have. Neither have I seen it done. It seems viable enough. A sort of hit and run unit, instead of a one trick pony.

If someone else could answer Wolf's question in more detail, that'd be great.

cinera
29-04-2007, 01:19
but rough riders are good, i was watching an eldar v guard match with keen intent to learn from the guard player, his rough riders circles the edge of the board and took out two dark reaper squads and a ranger squad!

yes i agree normally you should avoid combat, but every army has some long ranged units that are easier to kill in melee!

ctsteel
29-04-2007, 01:25
i could see the potential in a special weapon RR squad, they could gallop alongside an enemy tank and cut it open with meltaguns :D

Blandman
29-04-2007, 01:55
yes i agree normally you should avoid combat, but every army has some long ranged units that are easier to kill in melee!

Blasphemy! Non can withstand the full force of an Imperial artillery barrage! :p

Wolfsbane
29-04-2007, 03:58
I don't plan on having a finished IG force for some time but now I need to model both melee and fire support rough riders to figure it out myself.

O poop, now to figure out what they ride.

Stormhammers
29-04-2007, 04:37
put them on bikes! check out wargamesfoundry.com, in the ww2 section, they have some nide krauts on bikes, also you can find any number of histroic cavalry you can convert...one day I will have my roughriders.

Magistrate
29-04-2007, 06:36
For the Tallarns yes. But they're a very small part of the Imperial Guard. A very, very, very, very, small part. The same thing wouldn't really work in most other places.

What you guys, especially you, don't seem to understand is the Imperial Guard has no generic template. Each army of the Imperial Guard is entirely homegrown and thus completely tailor made to their environs and heavily influenced by the culture they came from. The only thing common about one planet's regiment to another's is the gear they're carrying ( Lasguns anyone? ), and even then that's not always consistent. Hence why there is combat doctrine rules.

At any rate, I prefer lots of Carapace armor and Rough Riders being my second string counter-chargers. You'd be surprised the kind of crap a 4+ save shuts down, such as being completely Rapid Fired to death by Marine Bolters.

trailerparkboys
29-04-2007, 10:43
Here's two reasons, they look cool and give the guard some needed mobility and puch/counter-punch. I do feel thsat the models could do with upgrading, and even sometimes feel that they should be on bikes instead of horses (I'll punish myself later for saying that).

Besides, we still use cavalry today. The British used cavalry in Afghanistan not only because tanks couldnt climb the terrain, but also because men on horseback frightened the local populace less then a whopping Challenger.

personally i dont think they look verry good

Blandman
29-04-2007, 17:31
What you guys, especially you, don't seem to understand is the Imperial Guard has no generic template.

Yes, surely I never realized this :rolleyes:

Because I've never read the Codex or anything like that. I would guess that the vast majority of Imperial Guard regiments don't use Rough Riders. They aren't good for much more than scouting. And as I've said before, any smart player will take them down before they can even get close enough to do anything.

If I was going to have a fast counter-attack unit, I sure as hell wouldn't use horses and lances.

Fear is the mind killer
29-04-2007, 18:38
And as I've said before, any smart player will take them down before they can even get close enough to do anything.
If they can take them down. Rough riders are ideal for hiding behind woods or buildings, as they can assault targets up to 24" away, and on all good battlefields there will be some terrain to hide behind which can be used to charge the opponent before they can fire a shot.


If I was going to have a fast counter-attack unit, I sure as hell wouldn't use horses and lances.

Well at only 8pts each they are ideal for tying up the enemy and can also take a bit of damage and still deliver a hit courtesy of sheer numbers. Add to that they can be upgraded to be bionic and/or have a 4+ save and also have the option of being armed with S 5 power weapons (1 hit only but still a good hit) makes them perfect for dealing with heavy infantry, especially deep striking marines.

GreenDracoBob
29-04-2007, 20:02
So the original poster, despite our many attempts to persuade him, is still convinced that Rough Riders would rarely, if ever, used by a Guard force. You know what this tells us?

If he has an IG army, he'll pretend that the Rough Riders unit doesn't exist.

For the rest us, we can use a unit that we see as fluffy and effective in the role they are supposed to perform. A role that is decided by the player, not the actual realism that 40k lacks.

Fear is the mind killer
29-04-2007, 20:09
Yeah he's in for a shock when he plays against an army with Take The Fight To Them (or a Black Templars army or a Blood Angels army) which arrives using drop pods.

wingedserpant
29-04-2007, 20:16
No, I wouldn't think it was. And I wasn't aware of that Doctrine, but it still wouldn't sway me.

I'm thinking more fluff wise really, I guess.

God your ignorant. People have already explained why they would be used fluff wise. The horses are more stealthy than bikes and giant aliens so they can speed round flanks and the like. On the tabletop you have to be careful not to expose them to rapid fire weapons so does that not explain it to you.

You might aswell question infantry-they die just as fast. Rough riders are just faster.

cinera
29-04-2007, 20:21
any smart player will take them down before they can even get close enough to do anything.

If I was going to have a fast counter-attack unit, I sure as hell wouldn't use horses and lances.


Thay why they have fast horses, so they can move behind cover and NOT get shot!

also i would definatly chose rough riders for their 5 strength power weapon attacks!

swordwind
29-04-2007, 22:14
I think now would be a good time to mention that you aren't supposed to charge your rough riders directly into the enemy guns ala the Light Brigade. Not even a Berserker can withstand running straight at a storm of explosions and machinegun rounds the size of a child's head. But a whole bunch of guys on horses or dirtbikes slamming into the back of your machinegun position, hacking up the important bits with chainsaws and then riding away as fast as they appeared? Sounds like a great tactic to me.

Edit: Or you could be this guy...
http://www.myspaceantics.com/images/funny/donkey-sniper.jpg

Neilza
29-04-2007, 23:11
omg lolololol

Earl_UK
29-04-2007, 23:35
a few things where i see rough riders been viable....

Feral worlds, even though the imprium has technology, on a back water world, with innate corruption backward socity, the horse could still be the main advantage.

Cerimonal, even today the Queen has a Calvary and still does the changing of the guard.

Logistics....

Technology does not always win a war.. (Vietnam)

They work fine for me :D

Blandman
30-04-2007, 03:05
God your ignorant.

Do you generally go around insulting people, or is this a new thing for you?

I'm not arguing facts, it's my opinion that there are things more effective than horses for such things. God. Don't insult people like that man, it isn't cool.

Also, please, don't speak as if I'm not here, that's kind of childish :rolleyes:

Seriously, if you can't deal with those things without Rough Riders, you're doing something wrong. And there's no if Draco. I do use Imperial Guard. I acknowledge Rough Riders, but I don't see them as a good option for me. I'm not trying to force things on anyone. Please, stop treating me like I'm some sort of ignorant little kid and respect my opinion like I've respected yours.

This isn't some place to come rolling in and calling people idiots (though such people infest the internet with their annoyances).

I've been shown some good reasons for why Rough Riders are used. But, it has been on feral worlds. On a Galactic scale, they'll be in the minority. I've also admitted that they can be used for certain things. But they can be out-done! By what? It's the 41st Millennium! Be creative!

No more being nasty. Play nice please.

EDIT: But those cavalry aren't used in combat. They are just for show. And it's great that they work fine for you. Awesome. But for me, no thanks. I'll stick to my guns (Ha. Pun.)