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The Dude
27-04-2007, 06:20
An interesting point that has come out of cailus’ “nerfhammer” thread is the scaling back of wargear and other options and problems people have with their carefully converted miniatures’ compatibility with the new rules.

Now anyone who has been in this hobby for any length of time will have experienced at least one Codex change and the inevitable redundancy of certain miniatures. So, with that in mind, I open up this discussion.

Here we shall talk about miniature redundancy, how we deal with it, good “counts as” rules and so forth.

What redundancy issues have you had? How did you deal with it? What sorts of “counts as” things do you do?

I for example use the Iron Halo rules to represent the distinctive headdress my Chapter Master wears.

THE KAPPTIN
27-04-2007, 06:26
I think for the most part you just let it count as the same unit but without the fancy wargear (it's now for "decoration") and in the rare case where there is no corresponding character anymore, pick the obvious choice - of which there usually is one. Inventive "counts as" models never seem to be a problem, at least for the people on here, anyway.

e.g. no more squats? Blam! They're Guard! No more D. Speed on your Chosen Asp. Champs? Bam! They're... uh... Raptors?

WoW_Auron
27-04-2007, 07:03
As previously stated im not one of these ancient 40k players who have been playing the game since before i could walk. However.. I do see (quite often) people going well out of their way to find old or in this case "redundant" models to make unique additions to their armies, for conversion and / or fluff purposes.

Like, some guy wants 2nd ed. Marines for whatever reason. Are these not now what we would call "redundant" ? I guess, what i think im saying is these models always have a use. From what i hear, the fluff isn't changing for all these lists is it? It seems to be mostly a wargear change (to which most of your models dont have access to anyway). Whats to say CSM can't use the "old" WYSIWYG sonic weapons as funky looking boltguns. Assuming they would look to fit the fluff still.

For example, they may remove entries such as power axe/sword and simply refere to them as power "weapon" or as stated previously, rename chainaxe/sword to ccw. Just because they have been renamed, doesn't mean that WYSIWYG models can't still wield an axe and call it a power weapon, just because in text it is no longer refered to as an axe, right? I guess this is a very simple and obvious thing to say, but you can surely take this example to much bigger extremes, with no real problems.

What sort of changes are we expecting to see that could destroy an entire army? It can't really be that extreme, can it?

As to the question, i never had it in 40k because i play DE. Lord knows they don't get enough attention as to make my model range "redundant" .. such a thing would be a funny sort of blessing to a DE player! .. "What!? my warriors are redundant!? well its about damn time!"


An Ork player doesn't need specific models and rules in order to create a characterful army. Ork players focus on things they like and they work with what resources to get what they want

This can apply to anyone, playing any race. So if i ever experienced redundant models, those would be my source for such ideas.

alex03
27-04-2007, 07:19
Back when I got into warhammer in 2nd edition I was starting my first army, the blood angels. This is back when you bought the Death Company as a unit and could equip them however you wanted. For some reason I thought it would be cool to equip ALL of them with powerfists. I had them all converted up with various posed powerfists, and they were fully painted. Then 3rd edition rolled around.....

In some battles with friends I used them as normal DC marines. I never tried to get vet sergents to join the DC. Overall I was displeased with the direction the Blood Angels had taken, decided to play normal marines, and the DC got shelved. Every so often I have considered ripping the arms off them and redoing them with chainswords, ect.

The Dude
27-04-2007, 07:22
Back when I got into warhammer in 2nd edition I was starting my first army, the blood angels. This is back when you bought the Death Company as a unit and could equip them however you wanted. For some reason I thought it would be cool to equip ALL of them with powerfists. I had them all converted up with various posed powerfists, and they were fully painted. Then 3rd edition rolled around.....

In some battles with friends I used them as normal DC marines. I never tried to get vet sergents to join the DC. Overall I was displeased with the direction the Blood Angels had taken and they got shelved. Every so often I have considered ripping the arms off them and redoing them with chainswords, ect.

I too suffered from the loss of selected weapons on the Death Company. I'm still in the process of replacing those arms...

KITS AND BITS
27-04-2007, 14:00
i was slapped quite hard , when they started removing las weapons from the first edition of the eldar aspect army , and gave guardians and banshees shuriken weapons and the like !

CommisarMolotov
27-04-2007, 14:19
Well, when my Chaos Thugs with bows in Warhammer Fantasy were dropped from the codex, I cut 'em off at the waist, mounted them on horse bodies, and called them Centaurs.

Then, they, too disappeared from the next codex, and they've been sitting in a shoebox ever since.

When they didn't bother to include Daemon Cavalry in the newest Warhammer Fantasy codex, but said that "they might get around to releasing rules for them sometimes in the future," I was so angry that I sent GW a really nasty letter about it. Months later, they finally got around to issuing new rules for them in White Dwarf Magazine. By that time, they, too had been relegated to the "shoebox of shame," but at least they eventually got a reprieve.

There's a whole Genestealer Cult in that shoebox of shame, too. People blithely tell me to use them as "counts as" termagant broods. Playing "counts as" with an army that I used to use as a legitimate force is like kissing your sister. You can do it, but it just ain't as much fun...

My two-piece plastic Eldar Guardians with lasguns are in there with 'em, courtesy of the Codex re-write before this 'un. I had a LOT of those models, and they're now sitting in the shoebox of shame.

When I was a Necromunda enthusiast, they sold a beast-keeper model with three different kinds of beasts in the blister. Unfortunately, you could only have ONE TYPE included with the beastmaster in the game. The extra "ripper" and what-not are now sitting in the shoebox of shame, courtesy of GW's greed or stupidity (which do YOU think it was?)

I've got a buddy who has been screwed over TWICE like this by GW. He owns a really nice Chaos Dwarf force in Warhammer Fantasy. They haven't had a new codex or models available since the first Bush administration. He's also got a Squat army...'Nuff said about that. He has no "shoebox of shame." They're in a rusting biscuit tin in his garage.

Bloodknight
27-04-2007, 15:12
MY redundancies:
2 Leman Russ Exterminators, one Griffon. 2 imperial Preachers (yeah, there are priests in the list, but frankly they suck). The tanks sat on the shelf until FW released rules for them and they now get fielded every time ;). I haven´t fielded priests since the BBB rules got obsolete.
Oh, and several Electro priests I cannot use anymore, but they were sort of cheesy anyway.

Angelwing
27-04-2007, 15:25
ork goffik rocker. used as mek boy with kustom force field generator (two handed piece of equipment...)
battle sisters with powerfists-now power weapons
fratris milita- became redemptionists, then inducted guard then zealots.
squat models- necromunda gang, then kill team. others as inquisitor retinue members.

I try to find a use for everything. I even have an ambull. used this in necromunda, but is waiting for alien hunting inquisitors with a radical slant to be used again.

ashc
27-04-2007, 15:36
CommisarMolotov: Tell your friend to dig his chaos dwarfs back out; they are still a perfectly legitimate force with a surprisingly powerful list, even if it is the makeshift ravening hordes list.

Ash

lord_blackfang
27-04-2007, 15:39
I usually rip minis apart and re-assemble them so they're legal choices again. Got used to doing this back when I started playing and couldn't afford all the different units.

Gen.Steiner
27-04-2007, 15:54
COME ON PEOPLE, use your bloody brains! There's no reason to chuck models out, look:


Well, when my Chaos Thugs with bows in Warhammer Fantasy were dropped from the codex, I cut 'em off at the waist, mounted them on horse bodies, and called them Centaurs ... they've been sitting in a shoebox ever since.

Easy response to that: Marauder Cavalry with throwing axes, or Dogs of War light cav with bows. :)


There's a whole Genestealer Cult in that shoebox of shame, too.

Use the Imperial Guard list with the Apostate Cardinal HQ from Codex: Witchhunters. As for incest, in the words of the Etonian "Be fair, sir, it's not that bad."


My two-piece plastic Eldar Guardians with lasguns are in there with 'em ... I had a LOT of those models

Err... you just call them shuriken catapults and keep on firing, comrade. :)


When I was a Necromunda enthusiast, they sold a beast-keeper model with three different kinds of beasts in the blister. Unfortunately, you could only have ONE TYPE included with the beastmaster in the game. The extra "ripper" and what-not are now sitting in the shoebox of shame, courtesy of GW's greed or stupidity (which do YOU think it was?)

The extras can become Tyranid Ripper Swarms, familiars for Chaos units, objective markers, scenery, or cute additions to scenic bases.


I've got a buddy who has been screwed over TWICE like this by GW. He owns a really nice Chaos Dwarf force in Warhammer Fantasy.

Which would be ENTIRELY PLAYABLE - see Ravening Hordes. :rolleyes:


He's also got a Squat army...'Nuff said about that.

Again, playable if you use Guard with Inquisitors and Allied 'Space Marines' for the Exoarmour and bikes.


Oh, and several Electro priests I cannot use anymore, but they were sort of cheesy anyway.

Psykers, Inquisitorial Henchmen, Priests, special weapons (meltaguns)...


I even have an ambull. used this in necromunda, but is waiting for alien hunting inquisitors with a radical slant to be used again.

Big Mutant in a LatD army list, or an Ogryn in a Guard list.

Use your imaginations!

sir.spamalot
27-04-2007, 16:00
Well luckily(or not) The ork codex hasn't been updated for quite a while(what 8 years or so...:( ) So nothin there...I guess I have been pretty lucky because my dwarfs didn't get hit to hard with the codex change.

cheers

Jesse Custer
27-04-2007, 16:26
It's a good thread The Dude!

I've been in the miniatures hobby from early 80's and like many here I saw more than one change in looks, feeling of an army, options changes, etc...

Usually when I have to change something, I foremost think about what's the best option for me: let a miniature 'drop' from my current army to my 'painted collectors' section or, if that's more sensible, to use it even if that would mean changing parts and bits (or adding new ones).

Last time I had to do something was on BTs, I wanted to use some new parts from the sprues and new options (or ones that I hadn't use before) on older miniatures. It made more sense to me to break an arm or a hand there and there, replace it and paint this specific new part or accessory (to update the look that has been way improved usually). I didn't feel like painting a whole new squad.
Just made more sense for me and I was greatly satisfied as I achieved to get a 'new' squad without taking the time to build and paint a whole new one from start (I'm a 'slow' painter it takes me a month and a half to paint a 5 men squad usually). It also made me correct past errors when I chose some options previously.

On the opposite, I do have to rebase my old BT Assault terminators (I told you I'm slow). I won't change the models, I like the painting so that's an easy choice.
However the squad leader (I used Jes Goddwin's Terminator captain) is equipped with a power sword and a storm shield, a mix of weapons you can't have as a Terminator squad leader in the new set of BT rules. I can't use it anymore within the squad and the way I converted the model makes it difficult to adapt it.
I'll just change the base and he will become an alternative army leader that would give me choice when choosing my army list.
In addition I'll take the opportunity to paint 4 new models that would 'push' the number of models within my assault squad to its maximum.

Last example: old SM Rhinos (and all the vehicules based on that chassis), choice was easy, the new ones just look so much better. I adopted the new ones and changed all those.

My point is that I don't feel forced by any change really, it all comes down to my personal preferences.
Of course I understand the frustration some may have when a change comes. But you know, change is inevitable, better to accept it and make the best of it.

Quin 242
27-04-2007, 16:48
There's a whole Genestealer Cult in that shoebox of shame, too. People blithely tell me to use them as "counts as" termagant broods. Playing "counts as" with an army that I used to use as a legitimate force is like kissing your sister. You can do it, but it just ain't as much fun...

I say that you are too harsh on the kissing of sisters... ;)



I've got a buddy who has been screwed over TWICE like this by GW. He owns a really nice Chaos Dwarf force in Warhammer Fantasy. They haven't had a new codex or models available since the first Bush administration. He's also got a Squat army...'Nuff said about that. He has no "shoebox of shame." They're in a rusting biscuit tin in his garage.
If you have his number or e-mail I'd be MORE than happy to take those off his hands.
Seriously. Have him contact me ASAP.

CommisarMolotov
27-04-2007, 20:03
I say that you are too harsh on the kissing of sisters... ;)


If you have his number or e-mail I'd be MORE than happy to take those off his hands.
Seriously. Have him contact me ASAP.

I'll ask him. If he's interested, I'll have him send you a PM via my account.

Quin 242
27-04-2007, 20:08
Thank you sir.

I have an Army of Squats that need some friends if I am to ever get these imperial tanks out of my list :)

sir.spamalot
27-04-2007, 20:09
I'll ask him. If he's interested, I'll have him send you a PM via my account.
I would be so very interested in any old models...but it looks like Quin42 already has it covered, if there were any extras PM me..

cheers

chromedog
28-04-2007, 02:37
I've been playing since they published the FIRST book of the astronomican, so I have a lot of models that date back to then.
My old rhinos? They're still rhinos (I'm of the belief that APCs SHOULD be smaller than an MBT) and I have 9 of them, only my tanks use the newer chassis (only had one of the old preds, so easy change). My whirlwinds are both scratchbuilt from the WD article (pre-ish 100)
Old land raiders - lost in the mists of time. Had two (a box) but lost them somewhere. Have three new ones and a scratchbuilt one that looks like a DI (design improved) upgrade to the older one.
Marines with odd weapons - get used in my 40k scale =I= game - like scouts with shuriken cats. Odd marines no longer available (marine comms specialist) are in the box, awaiting inspiration.
Eldar models that have changed, like guardians with las weapons. Since eldar no longer use las weapons, they can't be las weapons. So my Guardians USED to be warriors, when they retired from active service, they kept their gear. Older pattern shuricat weapons. I even still use my guardians with lascannon and missile launcher models in brightance and EML equipped squads. I put down a marker for the 'platform' - since it is stated that one of the crew is actually carrying it. My spirit warriors (dreads with small 'heads' ) are wraithlords - just like the dreads. Ghost warriors are in a box, awaiting a use (only have 6 of them).

The majority of my stuff is still used as is.

nanktank
28-04-2007, 02:56
Well when I had second edition orks they had a traktor kannon, a lifta droppa, and a squig catapult, which now count as 2 zzapp guns and a lobba.

SwordJon
28-04-2007, 04:43
In all my experiences, I've never met a player that wouldn't allow a counts-as miniature or piece of wargear, as long as it was explained to him beforehand.

lanrak
28-04-2007, 09:44
Hmmm,
lets think about this a moment.
GW are in the buisness of selling models.So if they can re-enforce the strict 'WYSIWYG' mentality on players.All they have to do is make minor asthetic/rules changes ,and some gamers feel impeled to buy a whole new set of models.

This does appear to be working.(I know of at least one gamer who has a range of SM dreadnoughts with different weapon load outs ,but only uses a maximum of 2 in any force.Simply because he thinks WSYWIG is Imperative.So has spent more that necissary if he just said this model has weapons that 'count as.')

The bottom line is if he players are in agreement,(written army lists are quite usefull,)then use as many counts as/proxies as you want.
(We have played full games of 40k,WH without ANY GW models before.)
Playing the game of 40k is supposed to be fun.

So be creative, have fun ,sod GW PLC marketing policy.

Gen.Steiner
28-04-2007, 09:51
I know of at least one gamer who has a range of SM dreadnoughts with different weapon load outs ,but only uses a maximum of 2 in any force.Simply because he thinks WSYWIG is Imperative.So has spent more that necissary if he just said this model has weapons that 'count as.'

Er... he does know that Dreadnought weapon systems are interchangeable if you don't glue them on? :confused:

victorpofa
28-04-2007, 12:47
I acquired a bunch of old weapon sprues with various miniatures I got on the internet. These sprues have las weapons that marines can't use anymore, and hand flamers. If you use two hand flamers it can "count as" a normal flamer, am I correct? Or would it be acceptable to just use one that "counts as" a flamer?

Gen.Steiner
28-04-2007, 12:51
I acquired a bunch of old weapon sprues with various miniatures I got on the internet. These sprues have las weapons that marines can't use anymore, and hand flamers. If you use two hand flamers it can "count as" a normal flamer, am I correct? Or would it be acceptable to just use one that "counts as" a flamer?

I use hand flamers as master-crafted plasma pistols. :) Alternatively you can just say it's an artisan-built flamer. Depends what you want to do.

On the other hand you could send them to me... :angel:

lanrak
28-04-2007, 16:17
Hi all.
Now Hand Flamer( Pistols) are no longer 'GW suported'.Having hand flamer in each hand and counting it as a flamer is just fine and dandy.
Sheesh, as long as you and your opponent are happy and clear with what models represent,go have fun.
In game terms the models are just '3D counters' to give a visual representation of the units disposition.
WSYWIG just makes it easier to follow.

Yes I know weapons on dreads are interchangable.And if you use magnets you can change load outs on other models too.(But why bother if you can say this counts as?)
But the gamer in question like to add lots of detail and conversion.And swaping out weapons was not realy viable.
( I have heard of some kiddies throwing away models when they are 'killed' in game,and buying new ones!!!)

Now if you want to attend tournaments ,then yes abide by the rules and restrictions of said tournament.(It is just sensible polite consideration.)

But for friendly games do what you like,(within the confines of reasonable behaviour), and have FUN.

Gen.Steiner
28-04-2007, 16:42
But the gamer in question like to add lots of detail and conversion.And swaping out weapons was not realy viable.

I... still don't get it. No matter how much detail and conversion you do to a Dread, it's still got a pin and lug for the weapon. Thus you can super-detail and convert the weapon and still make it interchangeable...


But for friendly games do what you like,(within the confines of reasonable behaviour), and have FUN.

I agree! :D

malisteen
28-04-2007, 22:21
I had some interesting experiences with tyranids. I acquired a 2nd ed tyranid army 2nd hand right at the end of 2nd edition 40k. I discovered in the black codex that many of my gaunt options (harpoon things, webbers) for gun upgrades had vanished. 'eh', I said, 'it's just a temporary list.

Well, I played a long time under the black codex (nids were waiting years for a 3rd ed book). In them days Tyranid win = many termagants with many genestealers behind them and a couple invisible hive tyrants in front. So I acquired gads of genestealers and termagants in those days.

Finally the 3rd ed book hit, and boy was that a mixed bag. My javalins and webbers became legal again (as venom cannon and barbed strangler mutants respectively). But termagants, while still legal, became terrible! There was literally no reason to use them, and in an army that actually punished you for taking more differant kinds of units, that hurt. Genestealers also suffered, but not as badly.

Well, I decided there was nothing for it but to convert all my termagants into spinegaunts. Much cheaper, almost as good. Well, spinefists came in pairs at that time, but there didn't seem any reason for it, so I just cut off the fleshborer ends of all my termagants and molded really terrible makeshift versions (they were my first attempt at sculpting. My friends called them wantons).

Of course, now fleshborers don't suck so bad, and spinefists are specifically paired weapons in the rules, and are twin linked because of it! I wish I hadn't converted all those gaunts. Sadly, my javalin-things and webbers are once again banished to the shadow realm.


At this point, I'd much rather just ditch the lot of my 'ole bugs. My chaos and eldar armies are much better off, and if I did want to do bugs again, I'd rather just start over

Onisuzume
28-04-2007, 22:26
I got a few dozen skinks with shortbows, which are now only legal/available in southlands army lists... A list that I don't like.
So they "count as" having either blowpipes or javelins&shields. (don't mix it in the same battle though)

Next I got a Asmodai model.
Though I must say that I never intended to use him as such so now he has a plasma pistol instead of his sword. The sword is floating around in my bits box till I find a use for it.

Sadly, my javalin-things and webbers are once again banished to the shadow realm.
There's a thread about that and with the rules on the uk site I'd say that they're still legal to field. (or at least in friendly games)

Playa
29-04-2007, 03:34
Hey,


I got a few dozen skinks with shortbows, which are now only legal/available in southlands

I have a Unit of Pink Skinks that 'count as' Horrors in my CSM list. :- )

But my redundancy story concerns the 3rd ed version of Cultists.

I had sixty with Lasguns when, suddenly, Cultists couldn't have Lasguns.

It's disappointing having a redundant mini, but SIXTY? Arrrgh!

The new Alpha Legion rules said 'ccw only with optional pistol'.

So, I scraped up every blade and pistol-type weapon in the bits box.

Now, every CC has a weapon that 'counts as' a las- or auto-pistol.

And yes, these include scavenged Hand Flamers and Shuripistols.


Playa

--

Sixty! Grrr!

The Dude
29-04-2007, 12:40
All good stories, and fine examples of either using "Counts As" to get around the problem, or simply sucking up the hurt and re-converting.

So we can all see there is no need to get upset about rules changes. Use your brain, or have fun with the conversion opportunities. :)

CommisarMolotov
29-04-2007, 13:52
COME ON PEOPLE, use your bloody brains! There's no reason to chuck models out, look:

Use the Imperial Guard list with the Apostate Cardinal HQ from Codex: Witchhunters. As for incest, in the words of the Etonian "Be fair, sir, it's not that bad."

Use your imaginations!

Wow, that's an excellent substitute for the Genestealer Magus and Brood Brother squads. When used in concert with the Broodlord and 'Stealer Broods from the Tyranids codex, it's a decent approximation of the old Cult list.

Thanks for the suggestion, Steiner. Do you think people would have a problem playing against a Tyranid list with Witchunter adversaries included even if they're not playing a Witchunter list?

Sir_Turalyon
29-04-2007, 14:06
None of my Orks is newer then Gorkamorka range, so I have a few compability problems with them... Combat knives, spiked knuckles sometimes become choppas, althrough I prefere to assign them to close combat weapon squads like tank huntas. Plasma and meltaguns become burnas - closest thing orcs have to assault weapons - or if they are plastic they are ripped away and reassigned to my Guard. One plasma gun on powerfist-armed nob is a slugga now. Heavy stubbers and custom combi weapons are just big shootas, while Plasma Cannons and Multi Meltas became rokkit launchas (single shot high ap weapon) - I don't use custom blastas on foot so there are no compability problems. Many of my most beautiful nobs have power axes (sometimes halebard-size); they are most often used as power claws - if opponent has problem with that, I swap model.

My Guard still uses Exterminators and Vanquisher using Forge World rules. Some illedal command models (comm-link operator with special weapom) have been rearmed. Hand flamers are used as bolt pistols. Some of 2nd edition seregants carry bolt pistols / other weapons normaly not availiable to them - these count as laspistol / ccw. Officers with shotguns became seregants. Rough Riders with lasguns and hunting lances (first 3rd ed codex) are supopsed to have laspistols instead.

In Fantasy, my unit of Questing Knights with lances became "the Dukal Guard", first KotR unit to be included when I make an army list.

Gen_eV
29-04-2007, 14:07
Do you think people would have a problem playing against a Tyranid list with Witchunter adversaries included even if they're not playing a Witchunter list?

Personally, I think the "only when playing WH/DH" comments in the two Inquisitorial Codices was a stupid move on the part of GW - if not for that, I'd've had great fun making adversaries. Not knowing any WH/DH players, however....

So yeah, I see no reason why anyone would have a problem with it, seems perfectly acceptable to me.

Gen.Steiner
29-04-2007, 16:07
Thanks for the suggestion, Steiner. Do you think people would have a problem playing against a Tyranid list with Witchunter adversaries included even if they're not playing a Witchunter list?

Any time. :D No, well, I wouldn't have any problems with it at all. I suspect most people wouldn't either, particularly not in friendlies. I mean - Genestealer Cult! :D Who doesn't like the cult?

Arhalien
29-04-2007, 16:08
I mean - Genestealer Cult! :D Who doesn't like the cult?

The Inquistion? :p

Easy E
29-04-2007, 16:38
I waste nothing.

Of course, I play orks so it is easy. I actually prefer the old wartraks/skorchas that are about the size of a warbike. The dreads are also a lot smaller. Easier to store and transport.

80% of my army is from the old 36 space orks for $25 plastic boxset.