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View Full Version : Xbows on pistoliers? What do you guys think?



gorenut
27-04-2007, 08:53
I've realized that with Empire.. I've kind of gotten too far from Fantasy. I originally started Fantasy to totally get away from 40k... now Space Marines are no problem.. but I'm still stuck getting guns. Ruleswise.. I have no problems.. but I'm a collector before gamer. So aesthetically I would like to maybe replace all my black powder weapons to conventional medieval weaponry.

My first step is to change Pistoliers into horseback repeater crossbows. I was thinking of using the crossbows from the new ranged empire set. They actually fit on to the outrider cloaks perfectly. I guess the only explaination on why the xbows are so big with such low range is that they might have some funky modified bolts that don't shoot too far but are extremely heavy and perhaps have modified metals created by my Metal mage. Also the fact that they're shooting the xbows on the move also mess up the effective range of the xbows. However, I gotta find a way to put a repeater clip on top of the xbows. I know dark Elfs have them.. but do you guys think those are too small?

On a side note.. I'm also nixing the idea presented on another forum of using the new mage models on platforms as artillary to replace cannons (metal mage lobbing big balls of metal in place of cannons).

So what do you guys think of this idea? Good? Bad? Any other ideas? Would you guys have problems with this? Thanks for any input.

Bretagne
27-04-2007, 09:32
i think it would look ok, but crossbows couldnt be used on horseback, especially the kind of horses that move around, on legs.
the mage idea is kind of cool. i like it. consider doing a large base with an open air alchemist's workshop, where a wizard would create alchemical fire, flying balls of molten metal and so forth. it would look better than just a mage on a big base.

Chiron
27-04-2007, 09:38
An idea I never got around to is using some of the wood elf plastics to make pistoliers into mounted mages, apprentices able to fling fireballs/low powered spells instead of pistol shots

should be easier to do when the plastic wizard box shows up

snurl
27-04-2007, 09:38
Crossbows are Move or shoot, but I like the way you think.

Bretagne
27-04-2007, 09:43
on the other hand, pistols would be tough to reload after firing, unless of course you had a ton of them stashed away about your person. i saw Glory, its tough to load a gun!

Noldo
27-04-2007, 09:46
Dark Elves have repeating xbows, that are definetly not move or fire so some precedent is there. One just have to make them much more heavy in order to justify strenght of pistol shot.

Definetly nice idea for low gunpowder empire.

snurl
27-04-2007, 09:46
I was in Gettysburg, and it Is tough to load a gun. But well drilled vetran troops could get off about 3 rounds a minute.

Bretagne
27-04-2007, 09:47
and thats with Matthew Broderick breathing down your neck!

snurl
27-04-2007, 09:49
No, Richard Jordan (Gen. Armistead)

the1stpip
27-04-2007, 10:04
Assuming you want to use the rules as they are, but use crossbows on the models instead of guns, I see absolutely no problem...

gorenut
27-04-2007, 10:07
i think it would look ok, but crossbows couldnt be used on horseback, especially the kind of horses that move around, on legs.
the mage idea is kind of cool. i like it. consider doing a large base with an open air alchemist's workshop, where a wizard would create alchemical fire, flying balls of molten metal and so forth. it would look better than just a mage on a big base.

Thats what I initially thought too.. but apparently the French did it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/FrenchMountedCrossbowman.JPG

And yes.. ofcourse I'm gonna put the mage in some kind of little structure dragged around by 3 minions. It'll be like some magic focus station and also to show why they'd have the same toughness as a cannon (semi-fortified).

SO yea.. as mentioned above with the xbows.. the reason why its only 8 inch shot with a xbow is because it's compensated for movement and different amunition on top of it being repeater. I'm actually getting excited to get all of this together now.

snurl
27-04-2007, 10:14
Sounds like a well thought out plan, I like that you are compensating range due to being mounted/repeating. Please post a picture when you assemble one, they sound cool.

Jan Polder
27-04-2007, 10:18
Mounted crossbow men is hardly a strech of the imagination because it has been done historically speaking. I am suprised that Bretagne said it isn't possible. You must remember that there were a lot of different kind of crossbows.

Cheers

max

gorenut
27-04-2007, 10:21
"The invention of pushlever and ratchet drawing mechanisms enabled the use of crossbows on horseback."

also

"The Saracens called the crossbow qaws Ferengi, or "Frankish bow", as the Crusaders used the crossbow against the Arab and Turkoman horsemen with remarkable success. In the armies of Europe,[16] mounted and unmounted crossbowmen, often mixed with javeliners and archers, occupied a central position in battle formations. Usually they engaged the enemy in offensive skirmishes before an assault of mounted knights. "

haha, sorry if this is becoming another cliched Fantasy history lesson. I just want to make sure what I'm coming up with right now makes atleast some sense.

Hywel
27-04-2007, 12:11
Mounted crossbowmen is entirely in-keeping with a late medieval army. They were some of the most disliked troops around and generally considered 'unsporting' by the nobles. For this reason they often suffered miserable fates when captured and were common as mercenaries rather than feudal troops.

However, I never really read military history, this is just what I find out in passing. How they were actually used on the battlefield I don't know. I always assumed they dismounted to fire, but it seems not!

I say go for it. It's all about looks and theme at the end of the day, in this case you're fortunate enough to have some historical backing too!

Griefbringer
27-04-2007, 18:01
Mounted crossbowmen were definitely a real troop type in 15th century France, Italy and central Europe - my understanding is that they used a lighter crossbow that could be reloaded while mounted.

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 01:59
No, Richard Jordan (Gen. Armistead)

no dude, it was matthew broderick, shooting a colt revolver into the air behind that one soldier.

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 02:01
Thats what I initially thought too.. but apparently the French did it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/FrenchMountedCrossbowman.JPG


hmmm. that does look good. good luck with that.
what about my alchemist workshop idea *pants*
either you do or i will brotha!

gorenut
28-04-2007, 05:32
I think the mage with the "crystal" ball would be perfect to be put in the fortified mage platform. Just paint the ball metallic and we got an Alchemist ready to launch a "cannon" ball.

Jonke
28-04-2007, 05:42
Build 'em with a brace of crossbow pistols, i.e. small one-handed crossbows. I think there comes one or two on one of the old mordheim sprues or it might be possible to modify the dwarf crossbows to be one-handed.

I think your ideas are great!

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 06:37
Build 'em with a brace of crossbow pistols, i.e. small one-handed crossbows. I think there comes one or two on one of the old mordheim sprues or it might be possible to modify the dwarf crossbows to be one-handed.

I think your ideas are great!

dont over do it with the mounted crossbowmen. you dont want it to look like the Warhammer Wild West Road Show.
how do you expect to hold the reigns if your shooting two crossbows?

Jonke
28-04-2007, 06:38
How do you hold the reins shooting two pistols?

gorenut
28-04-2007, 07:42
For horseback, I think I prefer the idea of repeater xbows. I think it makes even more sense than dual pistols on horseback.

CommanderCax
28-04-2007, 11:00
In Warhammer 3rd. edition the Empire army could use so called Kriegsritter. These were equipped with crossbow and light armour and optional with spear and shield. They had the function of light cavalry as no Pistoliers or Outriders were available in this edition.

These are mounted militia raised by the Electoral Provinces. They play a vital part in keeping the peace in the provinces and form a useful supplement to the heavily armed knights in battle.

gorenut
29-04-2007, 07:44
On a side note.. if I can find a bit that looks like a little box, then I can just glue those on top of the xbows. As long as it looks like a box that puts bolts in em. Anyone have any clue of a bit that might look like that?

Griefbringer
29-04-2007, 08:34
If you are handy, you could just try cutting a box-shaped form out of plastic sprue.

gorenut
29-04-2007, 09:02
actually, my jog may have gotten easier. I just noticed that in the new state troops sprue.. there is in fact 1 repeater xbow per box.

gorenut
29-04-2007, 09:38
Ok, I did a quick mock up of what I'm talking about. What do you guys think?
http://usera.imagecave.com/gorenut/xbowa.jpg

http://usera.imagecave.com/gorenut/xbowb.jpg

gorenut
29-04-2007, 10:01
PS: I'm not 100% sold on this idea.. so feel free to be mean if you want. I won't get butt-hurt over it.

Young guys galloping around with pistols still has an extreme charm to me. It's so thuggish.. like the fantasy version of a gangster driveby.

Griefbringer
29-04-2007, 11:52
Bit dark picture - could you place the model under a lamp or something when taking the next photo?

However, looking at the picture, what I see looks quite impressive!

gorenut
29-04-2007, 21:47
Bit dark picture - could you place the model under a lamp or something when taking the next photo?

However, looking at the picture, what I see looks quite impressive!

Thanks. I edited the photo to look a little brighter. I did have a lamp, but my camera is seriously just terrible, haha.

Right now, the only problem I see here is that people might more likely mistaken this guy to be an Outrider rather than a Pistolier.

Bretagne
29-04-2007, 22:41
i like the model. the weapon fits nicely. my only gripe is the plume on the hat. it looks like something out of Dr. Seuss

gorenut
29-04-2007, 23:44
i like the model. the weapon fits nicely. my only gripe is the plume on the hat. it looks like something out of Dr. Seuss

Hah, thats actually one of the parts I didn't convert. That's default. I like it though personally.

Bretagne
30-04-2007, 00:05
yes but would a rough, tough outrider look like a Las Vegas Casino Dancer?

Aorek
30-04-2007, 17:42
Right now, the only problem I see here is that people might more likely mistaken this guy to be an Outrider rather than a Pistolier.

Yeah looking more like an outrider than pistolier. Any reason your using them as count as pistoloers rather than outriders? (not very familiar with empire :D )

gorenut
30-04-2007, 19:53
Yeah looking more like an outrider than pistolier. Any reason your using them as count as pistoloers rather than outriders? (not very familiar with empire :D )

I just feel Pistoliers are more useful than Outriders. More or less.. I think Handgunners can fill in a lot of the roles of Outriders. Pistoliers have no other substitutes (unless you take DoW or allies).

Hywel
01-05-2007, 00:55
I think that looks great. Just emphasise that they're pistoliers before the game begins and there's no problem.

Their in-battle antics should leave no room for error in their identification! :D

sabre4190
01-05-2007, 03:02
I love your ideas. In my opinion, the empire are a little to stylized. I like the more classical and medieval appearance. While I myself don't have a problem with guns, your crossbow idea seems like a step in the right direction. It comes off as a solid model that looks great. I can see the empire making a light repeater crossbow. Im actually surprised they dont have them yet!


And then comes the cannon. Im sorry but I think mages as cannons would be a little confusing. You do need mages as magical support, and I think it would be a little tricky. Maybe a larger platform could work, but be careful. However, I think what you would enjoy making some kind of other classic war machine. A bulkier bolt thrower could work well as a cannon, since it penetrates through ranks anyway. And I can see it bouncing a little to reflect the angle it is fired at (it might not hit the ground, but maybe go a little higher instead of being a straight line). Or maybe a classic stone thrower could work in some way. From the work youve put together on the model here, you seem more than up to the challenge. Keep up the great work.

gorenut
01-05-2007, 07:22
Haha.. now I'm getting extremely conflicted. I still kind of want to just keep my pistoliers they are because theh gunpowder and medieval makes a nice juxtoposition that isn't traditional fantasy. IN the same boat.. I would love to do conversions just to have a uniquely themed army.. what to do, what to do....

gorenut
02-05-2007, 18:40
And then comes the cannon. Im sorry but I think mages as cannons would be a little confusing. You do need mages as magical support, and I think it would be a little tricky. Maybe a larger platform could work, but be careful. However, I think what you would enjoy making some kind of other classic war machine. A bulkier bolt thrower could work well as a cannon, since it penetrates through ranks anyway. And I can see it bouncing a little to reflect the angle it is fired at (it might not hit the ground, but maybe go a little higher instead of being a straight line). Or maybe a classic stone thrower could work in some way. From the work youve put together on the model here, you seem more than up to the challenge. Keep up the great work.

Yea, I've also considered making a modified bolt thrower to represent a cannon.. but after seeing the new mage models, I just had to find an excuse to field them. My army has no mages in it (it's warrior priest heavy), so this would be my excuse to have them. As mentioned, my idea would have them be in some kind of fortified platform used to focus energy. The crewmen would be represented by either acolytes or familiars (destroying them diminishes the "cannon's" effectiveness). Haha, we'll see... if I decide to stick pistoliers with pistols instead of the xbow idea, I'll probably just go ahead and include a cannon.

Any other opinions are certaintly welcome.

KingTut
02-05-2007, 19:05
Im not so hot on your pistoliers idea because it would be even harder to load a xbow on horse back unless you were REALLY strong. They would have the support the bow with thier feet and pull it back with both hands or a special type of glove.

I however do like your alchemists siege weapon though. And why not, a practical idea when black powder is out. Use the next best thing volatile magical elixers. Al-kahest to go!

gorenut
02-05-2007, 19:15
Im not so hot on your pistoliers idea because it would be even harder to load a xbow on horse back unless you were REALLY strong. They would have the support the bow with thier feet and pull it back with both hands or a special type of glove.



Yea, I understand, which is why I went for the bulkier looking repeater xbow. My thinking behind that concept is that the xbow has all these mechanisms inside which does all the "reloading" - hence why it's so bulky for its short range. All the user has to do is load bolts into the top.

Jonke
02-05-2007, 19:44
I think you should arm them with a smaller crossbow. One wich seems possible load without using your feet or a winch. Rugluds armoured orcs have nice small crossbows. You would have to file of the orc hands of course and add some sort of magazine on top to make them repeating.

Peace!

edit: The birdmen of catrazza also have small, light crossbow. Couldn't find them searching the online store but they should be there.

gorenut
02-05-2007, 22:52
I think you should arm them with a smaller crossbow. One wich seems possible load without using your feet or a winch. Rugluds armoured orcs have nice small crossbows. You would have to file of the orc hands of course and add some sort of magazine on top to make them repeating.

Peace!

edit: The birdmen of catrazza also have small, light crossbow. Couldn't find them searching the online store but they should be there.

I will look into the birdmen. I totally forgot about them.

Admittedly.. the pictures I have make the xbows look bigger than they actually are. Maybe I'll take better pics when I get the chance. As mentioned, the length of the xbow is actually the same as the pistols, except the xbow has additional length in the stock. When my cousin came over and took a look at the model, his initial reaction was also, "oh.. these look smaller than the pics"

Again, thanks for all the input so far.

I think I might just stick with black powder weapons. It does set Warhammer slightly apart from conventional fantasy out there. I guess I'll look forward to High Elfs to be my high fantasy army and utilize the unique combination of themes and juxtoposition put into the Empire army. The only other alternative I might do is use dark elf repeaters as pistoliers and use these ones as outriders. Again, thanks for all the input.