View Full Version : Two levels of 40k?

30-04-2007, 16:55
It seems like there are two trends right now in 40k.

1) Except for price, the barrier to entry to 40k is lower than it was before.

The basic game and primary armies are getting dumbed-down, streamlined, whatever you want to call it. This makes it easier to "get into " the game for kids and the less hard-core gamers.

If you buy a box of models, any box, it seems the goal is to make sure those models can be used as a single unit and be just as effective/inneffective as any other unit you could have bought. This prevents a certain amount of hard feelings when previously you might pay an outrageous sum for a bunch of useless models.

2) Forgeworld is on the rise. It has beautiful models, nifty and more complex rules and much higher price points.

Forgeworld is also becoming accepted at most tournaments.

So, what do I make of this? There might very well be two levels of 40k in the future. The entry-level game and the advanced game which will be available through Forgeworld. To use a car analogy, they are becoming the gaming equivalent of Toyota and Lexus. Same company, different target markets.

I actually like the concept of this, except that FW is sufficiently expensive that I can't have both a house AND a Elysian army. And since I need a house to store my armies...

30-04-2007, 17:24
They are having enough trouble getting one level of 40k to work/sell right. Doubt having a 2nd leveln would help much...See your point though....

30-04-2007, 18:00
If they really wanted to do that, a set of advanced rules, that were totally optional would be the way to go.

30-04-2007, 18:01
You mean Porsche and Lexus. GW keeps touting its "Porsche of Miniatures" slogan, last I heard.

30-04-2007, 18:08
Won't happen. Having been to several Games Day seminars where the question was raised, the response has always been no. They don't want the same problem that happened to Dungeons and Dragons in the late 1980's, where no one actually bought the regular edition. No one generally wants to play the "basic" version of any set of rules, and it hurts the image of the product when you have a version which doesn't sell at all.

30-04-2007, 18:31
Well, maybe they won't make it "official" but they already have a standard and luxury brand for miniatures. FW has to be allowed at tournaments in order to generate sales.

So in the end, you have the market stratification anyway unless they go and kill FW. Granted, that is the bone-heading kind of thing they might actually go and do.

30-04-2007, 21:51
We also already have a 'beginner' and 'advanced' ruleset, through the Battle For Macragge set...

The Song of Spears
30-04-2007, 22:37
Being the ever optomist i really hope your idea of 40k for the masses and forgeworld for the experts (read: addicts) is way cool, FW simply needs to release optional rules for existing models as well as their own makes, and for more armies.

Slaaneshi Slave
30-04-2007, 22:44
GW already have Beginners, Intermediate, and Advanced rules, though.

Beginners : Warhammer 40,000
Intermediate : Warhammer
Advanced : Most Specialist Games

30-04-2007, 23:19
I don't think this'll happen. Largely because if you have 2 "levels" of game you'll end up with people only playing one or the other. Either the majority will see the "basic" level of game as dumbed down and not want to play it, or the majority will see the "advanced" version as too complex and stick to the basic. And it'd be even worse if the Advanced rules were forgeworld. If it were the former case, people who couldn't afford forgeworld would feel alienated, like they weren't good enough to play "real" warhammer, and in the latter case people who see the advanced rules as overcomplicated would have even less impetus to give them a chance because the models are so expensive.

No, I think the current setup, with the game, the starter game (which isn't "dumbed down" rules, just a very specific set of scenarios to keep you from running into the more complicated stuff), and then the "semi-official" Forgeworld stuff as optional is probably the best layout.

Chaos and Evil
01-05-2007, 00:03
Advanced 40k is called Epic :D

NB: I say this as the proud owner of an Elysian Drop Troop army.

01-05-2007, 00:10
If Aeronautica Imperialis is any example of what "Advanced 40K" from Forgeworld would be like then I say bring it on. What a fun, simple, elegant, and extremely easy to learn game. Short of a few glitches in points costs and movement orders, it's also very well balanced.

More importantly Aeronautica is proof that you don't need a super-complex ruleset and so called "advanced game" to have a fun game for hardcore gamers.

However, I don't think the existing forgeworld rules or models bring 40K to any sort of advanced tier. They're just additional variety. The flyer special rules while a little clunky, don't interfere with the basic game mechanics and adds another dimension to a normal game. The superheavies and bio-titans are cool toys for those epic megabattles that integrate rather seamlessly as well.

I really don't see any stratification of 40K gaming based on Forgeworld. You don't need a Forgeworld model to play the game, and can play more competitively if you avoid Forgeworld rules altogether. I see more of a stratification along the lines of ultra-competetive gamers and beer and pretzel gamers.

01-05-2007, 00:15
The trouble i see with this Forgeworld = advanced view is that it also would equate to Forgeworld = expensive and so only people who can afford forgeworld goodies get to join the 'advanced' club.

no thank you.


01-05-2007, 00:21
Its funny how so many people equate 40k with beginners. LOL that is so absurd its not even funny. :rolleyes:
Now, a way to keep them seperate would be to market them as completely seperate games and they already have enough offshoot games that could qualofy as "advanced" such as necromunda and inquisitor. Besides, they will never make everyone happy all of the time so rather then trying to please people, they would be better off just doing it right.
In my opinion, I like the new stuff but I like the older stuff better as it was designed for fun rather then tournies. Does that mean I wont play the current edition? No, I accept it as it is the faults along with any improvements and learn to cope with each new version as it comes.
My only wish is that they would wise up and release everything for each new edition together in one lump rather then staggering within each edition so that 50% or more of the armies never get fully updated for each consequtive edition.

Slaaneshi Slave
01-05-2007, 00:23
The reason people equate 40k with beginners is that the game you just called "advanced" - Necromunda - has the same core rule set as 40k used to have. 40k is very much a beginners / dumbed down game compared to its earlier incarnations.

01-05-2007, 00:32
You are right there, it has been dumbed down very much since its original (and best) incarnation of Rogue Trader. However, it does still offer much in the way of tactics and strategy if one is perceptive enough to make use of them. Calling it "for beginners" implies that only beginners play it. I myself started with fantasy and moved onto 40k later because I liked its imagery and gothic feel as well as it being a cheaper game to play then fantasy (lol, not that any GW game is inexpensive. although necromunda and Blood Bowl relatively are due to being able to get free rules and convert models.)
The only reason I called Necromunda "advanced" is because it has a more lasting effect. The events within each game directly affect your gang from gang to gang and you often have mismatches and such stuff as after game events that affect the outcomes of future games. I was not referring specifically to the combat rules but the game as a whole.