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BullBuchanan
08-04-2005, 06:56
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I havn't seen it, so I'll rant anyway. What in the hell is the matter with GW? Its not bad enough that their prices are so steep that I dont even buy direct (95% of my shoppinbg is done on ebay for GW products) but then they have the balls to put 16 models in a box?

When I recenty decided that I was going to revamp my dwarf army and buy some more minis, I remembered that plastics only come in lots of 16 a piece. Honestly, who the hell fields a 16 model unit? I know some spearmen units are 15(5x3) but I'd be willing to bet that a good 75% of warhammer plastics units are fielded in 5x4, meaning that in order to do this you need to buy 2 boxes for 1 unit. So every time I decide I want to add a new unit, GW gets 60 dollars out of my pocket......absolutely ludicrous. When will these guys start paying attention to the people who are actually funding their company instead of just looking at their bottom line.

It's a damn shame, it seems like the industries that were founded with the most pure and honourable of intentions have become something completely different. Now maybe I'm exxageratting and they are hurridly working on a solution to this issue, but at this point I'm doubting it. Granted most of this post is just fueled by me being pissed at having to buy an additional regiment for 4 models, but what the hell I guess its a decent an excuse as any for openeing up a thread :cool:

NetGuru
08-04-2005, 08:33
What about ordering additional sprues from the online store instead of buying another box? normally some sprues contain atleast 4 troops for about 4-5, saving you from buying a 18 box (or the dollar equal)

Sojourner
08-04-2005, 09:00
What if you don't want 25 models? What if a casual shopper thinks 25 models and the corresponding price is too much?

Besides, models are moulded in fours, generally.

I do miss the 5 miniboxes, though.

BullBuchanan
08-04-2005, 09:39
i accidentally said 5x5 i meant 5x4 equally 20 models which almost everyone uses. Sorry for the typo

Avian
08-04-2005, 10:18
I can hardly image how you must feel about blister packs. 3 models in each and that's not even a legal unit. :rolleyes:

Drabant
08-04-2005, 10:40
I can hardly image how you must feel about blister packs. 3 models in each and that's not even a legal unit. :rolleyes:

Don't be silly, you know that's not what he means.

GW packs in this way, so you need about 1 & 1/3 package to make a complete unit, in several of their systems. I hate to think it's a deliberate strategy.

:0)
08-04-2005, 13:11
Chaos Warrior boxes must really **** you off.

Major Defense
08-04-2005, 13:50
Don't be silly, you know that's not what he means.

GW packs in this way, so you need about 1 & 1/3 package to make a complete unit, in several of their systems. I hate to think it's a deliberate strategy.

Well go ahead and think it because that's exactly what it is. People who have enough money to get ass-raped by GW's sales strategies can go ahead and do so while frugal skeptics like myself will stick to eBay.

P.S. - blister packs of 3 are legitimate units in warband rules.

Lord Lucifer
08-04-2005, 14:17
16 in a box is only becomming an issue now?
5, 6, 7 years ago, whenever the Soldiers of the Empire box came out, SotE had 16 in a box.
Along comes 6th ed. and GW has the nerve, nay, the temerity to raise that to 19!
Curse their black hearts!

Halberdiers used to be available in boxes of 8, mono-pose and poor quality.
Then the regiment box came out, twice the price, twice the figures, a free movement tray, free command bits (standard, drum, fancy sword etc.) that were multi-pose and good quality.
16 has been the number for a great deal of years

Empire Swordsmen used to be available in blisters of three for nearly the same price as the 8-man halberdier regiment.
Buying two boxes of 16 for a 20 man unit was still a hell of a lot cheaper than the blister packs.

I believe the reasoning was 16 is the minimum needed to get full rank bonus.
I prefer units of 24, so three boxes got me two big regiments, which suited me just fine


Then I got a spiffy new command sprue, making me happy as Larry. I took Larry to go see some circus clowns so he's very happy.
I like chopping up plastic bitz for conversions. My new command sprues give me bucketloads of Bitz.




The message in all this?
You can't please all the people all the time. You only want one regiment, so, sadly, it sucks to be you.
How about getting two boxes, and make 20 Dwarf Warriors, and 12 Crossbowmen?
Or a 12-strong Great Weapon flank-charger? (with the free wheel-in alignment even M3 Dwarfs can swing around if you play your cards right)


But it works for me, and it's a HELL of a lot cheaper than when I started, even with the price hikes.

Avian
08-04-2005, 14:33
GW packs in this way, so you need about 1 & 1/3 package to make a complete unit, in several of their systems. I hate to think it's a deliberate strategy.
In my experience, most of the time 1.5 boxes gives you a decent unit. I don't really see his problem, to be honest. You could have 50% more models in a box, but GW would charge you 50% more for it, so all you'd get is a less flexible system.

I would much rather have:
a) lower prices overall (duh!), and
b) less expensive prices on single sprues (9 for a knight sprue AND I have to pay postage???)

Drabant
08-04-2005, 14:44
Smaller quantities does in deed mean greater flexibility, and that is the reason why your argument about blister packs is not valid. What would give even better flexibility is to release the figures in 8 figure boxes.

The problem here is that if you just want one unit, and have to use 1 1/2 box for it, you are wasting a lot of money. If multiples of 16 is a good unit size, then the system is flexible, but if you want multiples of 20, it definitly is not.

Bruen
08-04-2005, 16:49
So either mail order the exact number of sprues that you need or keep your left-overs until you have enough to make a "free" unit out of your bits box. You could even trade your spares with your mates for other things that you need.

Whats the problem?

imthedci
08-04-2005, 16:50
The thing that you have to remember is that, according to the rules, a full rank is 4 models. And since the highest rank bonus you can have is with 4 full ranks, 4 x 4 = 16. The sad thing here is that most people (GW included) like to have 5 models per rank which causes a problem. (The problem being 3 full ranks of 5, plus 1 extra model)

Annoying? Yes! But, as others have said, the cheapest thing to do to remedy the situation (since GW won't :rolleyes:) is to order an extra sprue from Mail Order.

Avian
08-04-2005, 16:59
Smaller quantities does in deed mean greater flexibility, and that is the reason why your argument about blister packs is not valid.
Eh? I wasn't aware I had an argument about blister packs. Or were you talking about someone else?



So either mail order the exact number of sprues that you need or keep your left-overs until you have enough to make a "free" unit out of your bits box. You could even trade your spares with your mates for other things that you need.

Whats the problem?
Ordering extra sprues is almost as expensive as buying an extra box. One ogre Bull sprue (2 ogres) is 12, which is at least 16 (20 in Norway, the same as a full box!) if you include postage. If you just want a single unit then the extra sprues are quite expensive bitz doing little for you.

Example: I want a couple of boxes of Rat ogres to convert Yhetees and a Gorger. That leaves me with a lot of giant rats I can't use in any of my armies and everyone I know have enough giant rats already.

Or to take another example: A single sprue of 12 2-point gnoblars cost an incredible 15 plus postage. (where is that WTF-smiley when you need it?)

BullBuchanan
08-04-2005, 19:06
right so im going to buy a 30 dollar box, 4 short of a unit then buy another sprue for 6 bucks or so plus probably 5 dollars shipping......its a joke. Or i could take my 16 and buy two blisters at 10 bucks a pop....either way, I think there's some people that are just way to complacent with GW policies.

Misfratz
08-04-2005, 19:57
Have you tried complaining to GW? What response did you get? In my experience with customer service that I found to be below par I've had good results by taking the time and effort to write a polite letter explaining clearly my complaint. You could give it a go and tell us what response you get. There are some constructive suggestions you could make:
Make ordering individual sprues cheaper [incidentally if you do this at a store you can collect it from the store and not have to pay postage].
Increase size of regiment boxes
Decrease size of regiment boxes
Introduce booster pack boxes [basically stock the basic trooper sprues as retail]

I once saw Tim Adcock sculpting a three-up of a Cadian Guardsman and he said he was doing this so they could release 'booster packs' of 3-part troops [although this was some time ago and I haven't heard of them since], so that people could get a small box of them "to fill in the gaps".

If you don't let them know GW may assume that you are happy to have left over parts so that you can use them for conversions, dead bodies on other bases, etc, etc. Given that most of the box sets can be used to make more than one troop type [eg Slaves or clanrats, swordsmen or halberdiers, etc, etc], it has never struck me as a problem that they aren't the exact number that I want at a particular time.

Also, in 40K most of the box sets are of the size of a full unit* [eg 10 tactical marines], it's simply that in Fantasy there is a much greater range of unit size. Supposing they did package 20 to a box? What about the person who wanted a unit of 25? They'd have to buy 40 instead of 32...

*There's one caveat to this and that is the Imperial Guard box set which doesn't come with heavy weapons so you have to get the expensive heavy weapons box set. The whole point of IG infantry is the heavy weapons they can lug around - why wouldn't you want them in the box???

Bruen
08-04-2005, 19:58
Oh dear, so this is just another "i dont have enough money to buy everything that I want right away" thread in disguise.

If you can't afford it then either go without or save up. Its only a hobby, not something important like health insurance or the mortgage.

lord_blackfang
08-04-2005, 20:36
BullBuchanan seems to be starting a lot of rant-threads...

I honestly don't know anyone who really ever only needed ONE unit of something and had no use for the 8-12 extra men he got from buying two boxes.

Ursca
08-04-2005, 20:44
You've also got to remember how many model you get to a sprue. GW only puts a certain amount of sprues in each box.

Units which are cheaper points-wise (goblins, etc) get 5 models to a sprue. More expensive units are 4 to a sprue. 4, 5 sprues gives you 20, 4, 4 sprues gives you 16.

If GW thinks they can get away with it, they give you one less sprue, because the troops are more expensive points-wise (chaos warriors. I assume that they are 4 to a sprue, but I haven't seen the sprue so I could be wrong.)
For cavalry, you get half as many models due to the steeds being roughly equal to model. (high elves: 16 spear elves - 8 silver helms, O&G: 20 goblins - 10 wolfriders.)

That's the way it works, and unless we can persuade GW to sell 'booster boxes' then that's the way it's going to be.

BullBuchanan
08-04-2005, 21:15
Oh dear, so this is just another "i dont have enough money to buy everything that I want right away" thread in disguise.

If you can't afford it then either go without or save up. Its only a hobby, not something important like health insurance or the mortgage.

Damn I guess sombody let the trolls out of their cages.....Since you are so ignorant to misinterperet my post, why don't you go take yourself somewhere else. You obvioulsy have nothing constructive to add to the conversation, so don't waste my time.

And btw, I have the cash to purchase it if I wanted, but I don't think right and wrong should be justified by how much money you have.....

BullBuchanan
08-04-2005, 21:25
Also, in 40K most of the box sets are of the size of a full unit* [eg 10 tactical marines], it's simply that in Fantasy there is a much greater range of unit size. Supposing they did package 20 to a box? What about the person who wanted a unit of 25? They'd have to buy 40 instead of 32...


I would be happy if GW just made things playable out of a single box. For instance. There are very few people who field 4x4 regiments thus getting to 16 models. 15 at 5x3 would be more understandable, and then have 5 model booster boxes. "well what about the guy who wants a 23 man regiment?" tough he can buy a 5 model box for 3 models. Just to end that before that question comes up.

15 or 20 would make alot more sense in my eye for infantry. I wouldn't mind paying a couple extra dollars for a 20 man box instead of a 16 because time and money wasted on finding an alternate solution wouldn't be worth it.

apparently we have some harcore fanboys around here that have 0 complaints about how things could be made better, so I don't even know why they are getting psyched up over new things because the way things are currently is obviously perfect :rolleyes:

Cacodemon
08-04-2005, 22:01
i'd prefer them to be in multiples of 10 like some boxes are (20 models in Skaven and Goblin infantry for example, or most of the metal boxes with 10 models each).

In particular, the Bretonnian infantry has it bad with 16/box. They're cheap infantry in the game and benefit from numbers, yet they made so that you must buy lots of boxes to make them work.

:0)
08-04-2005, 22:03
Damn I guess sombody let the trolls out of their cages.....

Help me, I'm drowning in the irony!

BullBuchanan
08-04-2005, 22:04
i'd prefer them to be in multiples of 10 like some boxes are (20 models in Skaven and Goblin infantry for example, or most of the metal boxes with 10 models each).

In particular, the Bretonnian infantry has it bad with 16/box. They're cheap infantry in the game and benefit from numbers, yet they made so that you must buy lots of boxes to make them work.

I agree 10 would be absolutely fine

10 for $15 instead of 16 for 30 would be ideal imo.

:0)
08-04-2005, 22:07
What are you going to do about it?

BullBuchanan
08-04-2005, 22:12
What are you going to do about it?
:rolleyes:

EvC
08-04-2005, 23:00
I agree 10 would be absolutely fine

10 for $15 instead of 16 for 30 would be ideal imo.

Then for $30 you would be able to buy two boxes of 10. So basically you would like GW to sell you more for less. Wouldn't we all?! ;)

Cacodemon
08-04-2005, 23:30
Then for $30 you would be able to buy two boxes of 10. So basically you would like GW to sell you more for less. Wouldn't we all?! ;)

The cost isn't the issue here. Even if it cost exactly as much per figure as the current boxes, I agree with BullBuchanan that 10/box or 20/box would be much more IDEAL way to get the models than 16/box or 19/box.

Bruen
09-04-2005, 00:32
If money isn't a problem then just buy two boxes, save the spares and either trade them with your mates or save them for your next unit.

The point is that whatever number of figs there are in the box its not going to suit some people.

Sure they could have 10 and 20 fig boxes but more boxes cost more to stock, distribute and takes up more shelf space. This would make the boxes even more expensive than they already. This still doesn't help the people who want 16 figs or 25 or whatever odd number AND it doesn't suit both the people who want 20 figs in a unit with command and the people who want 20 figs in a unit without command.

OK you could have 20s in the shops and 10s as mail order only, but people in this thread have already complained about postage costs.

OK you could have 10s only but smaller boxes don't have the same economies of scale and thus will cost more than half the price of the 20s. I can hear the whining already.

GW will never win this argument, its just not possible to please everyone.

... but I don't think right and wrong should be justified by how much money you have.....

Oh please, spare me the amateur dramatics. This is no epic battle between good and evil, all we are talking about is a few quid and some routine packaging compromises that companies have to make all the time.

I used to have a camera that took 3 AA batteries, but I could only buy them in 2s, 4s and 12s. What did I do? I lived with it. If that was the biggest problem in my life I would have been a happy man.

BullBuchanan
09-04-2005, 01:14
If money isn't a problem then just buy two boxes, save the spares and either trade them with your mates or save them for your next unit.

The point is that whatever number of figs there are in the box its not going to suit some people.

Sure they could have 10 and 20 fig boxes but more boxes cost more to stock, distribute and takes up more shelf space. This would make the boxes even more expensive than they already. This still doesn't help the people who want 16 figs or 25 or whatever odd number AND it doesn't suit both the people who want 20 figs in a unit with command and the people who want 20 figs in a unit without command.

OK you could have 20s in the shops and 10s as mail order only, but people in this thread have already complained about postage costs.

OK you could have 10s only but smaller boxes don't have the same economies of scale and thus will cost more than half the price of the 20s. I can hear the whining already.

GW will never win this argument, its just not possible to please everyone.

... but I don't think right and wrong should be justified by how much money you have.....

Oh please, spare me the amateur dramatics. This is no epic battle between good and evil, all we are talking about is a few quid and some routine packaging compromises that companies have to make all the time.

I used to have a camera that took 3 AA batteries, but I could only buy them in 2s, 4s and 12s. What did I do? I lived with it. If that was the biggest problem in my life I would have been a happy man.

:rolleyes: It's nice when you have the ability to take things out of context with impunity.....

:0)
09-04-2005, 03:32
:rolleyes: It's nice when you have the ability to take things out of context with impunity.....

What is your context exactly? You think it's unfair that GW doesn't allow you to make a full unit of twenty models from a single box? You said yourself you want it to be playable. Here, I'll sum up the previous post you ignored:

You: Want 20 models, box comes with 16.
Gamer 1: Wants 25 models, box comes with 20
Gamer 2: Wants 20 models, box comes with 24 models
Gamer 3: Wants 30 models, box comes with 16/20/24

In summary: Why don't we all whinge? You bid on ebay anyway, it's not like auctions are restricted to regiment boxes. I've seen 30 goblins offered, as well as thirteen skinks. How's them apples?

twisted_mentat
09-04-2005, 05:12
The Units are playable out of the Box. They may not be idealy playable for what you want to do with them ( i know, i've been buying chaos warriors like crazy trying to get units of 19. 19 because i'll always put a Champion/Scorcerer in the units).

There is non box that lacks the 10+ models that the majority of units need to have in them.

Also, most boxed sets can e made into more than one thing now....so any extras can go to a unit of those, or use them in conversions...

I'm going to start a Vampire Counts army becuse i have so many parts of Empire Troops laying around...

BullBuchanan
09-04-2005, 06:26
The Units are playable out of the Box. They may not be idealy playable for what you want to do with them ( i know, i've been buying chaos warriors like crazy trying to get units of 19. 19 because i'll always put a Champion/Scorcerer in the units).

There is non box that lacks the 10+ models that the majority of units need to have in them.

Also, most boxed sets can e made into more than one thing now....so any extras can go to a unit of those, or use them in conversions...

I'm going to start a Vampire Counts army becuse i have so many parts of Empire Troops laying around...

Alot of people have been tossing around the idea that you could use them for conversions. Outside of this forum very few people actually bother doing conversions unless they are in the hobby for the modeling. And when I'm paying 2.00 a pop per plastic model I think I'd rather be able to use it in the game.


You: Want 20 models, box comes with 16.
Gamer 1: Wants 25 models, box comes with 20
Gamer 2: Wants 20 models, box comes with 24 models
Gamer 3: Wants 30 models, box comes with 16/20/24

The reason why my opinion makes sense is that the majority of people use regiments of 5 men across right? Well The max Rank bonus is plus 3 and thats what most people go for in a unit. The only time youd ever want to field a 25 man unit would be against a super shooty army, and in that case its a specialized list. In a standard game noone fields 25 man units because its a waste of points, especially if the unit ends up getting run down, they cant fight, they dont add to CR, the only point of a 25 or 30 man unit is to absorb casualties, and again thats on a rare basis. Do You field 16 man units?....I really doubt it.

Oh im bruen will have some smart ass comment, but I just think its stupid that you have no options when purchasing plastic boxes. How would you like it if you went to a fast food place and they only had one drink size and they only filled it 3/4 of the way? Sure there wouldn't be anything wrong with it, but it wouldn't be enough, and if you wanted just a little bit more to make a full glass you had to buy another one. Chances are probably real good a place liek that wouldn't get alot of your business. Thats the way i feel. You cant even buy blisters to get it around where you need it. If I need a 20 bowmen regiment I have to spend 60 bucks and then I have essentially bits left over. It's a simple point im trying to make here but for whatever reason you cant grasp it. whatever its obvious some people can't be reasoned with so i'm done with this thread.
Later- Bull

Avian
09-04-2005, 07:29
There is non box that lacks the 10+ models that the majority of units need to have in them.
With each price increase, inconvenient box sizes become a more and more valid complait, because those spare models you are not using cost you more and more money.

And then there is the question of why a new Gnoblar box contains two double sprues for 18, while the Orc box contains four double sprues and a single command sprue and used to cost 15.

Is there any wonder I buy less minis? :rolleyes:

Bruen
09-04-2005, 09:35
With each price increase, inconvenient box sizes become a more and more valid complait, because those spare models you are not using cost you more and more money.

How do the extra models cost you anything?

Just keep em in your bits box for conversions or until you need to make another regiment of whatever. If you are anything like me you will use them sooner or later. Alternativly trade them or sell them on Ebay.

The only time they cost you money is if you throw them away, or never use them.

Bruen
09-04-2005, 09:36
Alot of people have been tossing around the idea that you could use them for conversions. Outside of this forum very few people actually bother doing conversions unless they are in the hobby for the modeling.

I pity you if you genuinly never do conversions. Its a lot of fun.

Lord Lucifer
09-04-2005, 10:17
The cost isn't the issue here. Even if it cost exactly as much per figure as the current boxes, I agree with BullBuchanan that 10/box or 20/box would be much more IDEAL way to get the models than 16/box or 19/box.


Again, depends on what the individual wants.
Bull wants a unit of 20.
I want a unit of 24.
I solve my unit of 24 by getting three boxes of sixteen.
This works out perfectly, because I split one box in half and have the two units of 24 I want.

If it was a box of 20, I'd have left over models I can't particularly use... but Bull would be happy.

In big bold writing, the moral of the story is you can't please all of the people all of the time, but they're pleasing some people
If you aren't in that group it's pleasing, well, it certainly sucks to be you. If you are, it's GREAT.
The only question is WHO doesn't like it.


And Bull, if you want it to be different, you WILL find people who lack sympathy for your case, because it suits you but makes the same problem for them




And as a run-down, Regiment Sets with at least 20 figures:
Skaven
Goblins
Night Goblins
VC Skeletons
Gnoblars and Skinks?
Empire Militia

Sets with 19:
Soldiers of the Empire

16:
Elven Spearmen
Elven Archers
Dwarfen Warriors (various armaments) and Crossbowmen (same box)
Old Soldiers of the Empire
Tomb Kings Skeletons
Orcs
Chaos Marauders
Saurus Warriors?
Dark Elf Spearmen/Repeater Crossbowmen


Buggered if I Know:
Bretonnian Men at Arms and Bowmen



Some boxes DO have 20.
Again, sucks for your dwarf army.


Really a case of convenient for some but not all, and there's no way you can completely prevent that other than selling individual figures, which will undoubtedly cost more for individual packaging (working out more expensive in the long run), undoubtedly be mono-pose (again another case of disadvantaging a sizeable group of hobbyists), and possibly charge extra for command pieces.

Say it with me now, guys
It sucks to be you but it rocks to be me ;)

Cacodemon
09-04-2005, 14:07
I believe that in 40k GW has already produced packs of 4 plastic models for Khorne Berzerkers, Tau Firewarriors and Necron Warriors.

Bruen: You have to pay for the un-needed models, don't you? So if a regiment box is 30 for 16 models, it comes out at 1.875/model. And if I want a unit of 20, I have to shell out 60 to get two boxes only to field unit worth 37.5. See, it's simple.

Lord Lucifer
09-04-2005, 14:35
Cacodemon, unless the figures are sold seperately, SOMEONE is going to have the 'problem' of buying more than they strictly need.
Which means no matter what, SOMEONE'S going to be wasting money.

All changing the number would do, is 'screw over' someone else.

It's not FIXING the problem, it's making it someone else's problem.

Bruen
09-04-2005, 14:47
I believe that in 40k GW has already produced packs of 4 plastic models for Khorne Berzerkers, Tau Firewarriors and Necron Warriors.

I know for certain that there are no such retail boxes for Tau and do not remember seeing the others in store. As far as I am aware the only way to get 4s is to mail-order the sprues, a method that I have already suggested.


Bruen: You have to pay for the un-needed models, don't you? So if a regiment box is 30 for 16 models, it comes out at 1.875/model. And if I want a unit of 20, I have to shell out 60 to get two boxes only to field unit worth 37.5. See, it's simple.

Thats exactly my point, they aren't unneeded. Sure you don't need the for the unit you are making today, but you can use them for the unit that you make next week.

Using your example the unit that you make this week will cost you 60 but you will have 12 models spare. So for each of you next 3 units of 20 you only need to buy one 30 box. Even if the next unit isn't exactly the same its easy enough to convert plastics into something else.

They are also not wasted if you trade the spare models that you don't need for something that you do need or sell them on Ebay to other people who only want a few models.

In addition a box of 20 may suit YOU better because you want units of 20, but what about the person who wants a unit of 25, or 15 or 19 or 11 or whatever? Regardless of which box size GW picks it is never going to suit everyone.

SlaaneshSlave
09-04-2005, 15:39
What I don't understand is that the argument is centered on buying a single unit of core troops with no extras. I thought the point of this hobby is armies, not units. My skaven army has 80 clan rats & 60 slaves. The boxes of 20 work very well, even though clan rats are fielded between 25-30 models per unit.

Because you don't take a single unit of core.

And a quick costing side of this... In the world of comsumer products, packaging is about 25% - 60% of the total cost. (Yes, the cereal box costs more then the cereal inside.) This is why bulk is cheaper per unit. So, if 20 models cost $30, then you can expect 10 models to cost $18.

Eversor
09-04-2005, 17:37
This is what Gav Thorpe had to say on the matter when interviewed by Dysartes (question is bold, the rest is Gav's answer):


Since the largest costs of plastic minis are moulds and design, why have the # of sprues per box dropped from 5 to 4 in most of the new plastic sets? (i.e. Skellies get 5 sprues per box, for a total of 20 models, but Chaos only gets 4 sprues for 16 minis.)

Although there is no strict formula is this regard, there is a relationship between the number of models in a regiment set and the size of units people are likely to take, based vaguely on size and points value. On the whole, most regiments are sixteen-strong. Smaller, weedier troops such goblins, Skaven and such come in twenty-strong regiments, while harder units such as Chaos warriors come in smaller units, and cavalry comes in half-strength units (i.e. Eight silver helms compared to sixteen High Elf spearmen). These days the largest cost is in packing 100,000+ boxes, where the difference between putting five frames and two frames in a box can make a considerable difference to the profitability of a product. Our plastics strategy, like so many other aspects of the range management, is constantly being updated in light of new technologies, demand and planning, and so too are the numbers of models produced in plastic.

Bruen
09-04-2005, 17:45
Interesting.

Trunks
11-04-2005, 00:16
People really field most regiments five wide?

I personally field my minis with 20mm bases six wide in general. It's the best frontage for any regiment that is going to be armed for close combat in general.

My minis with 25mm bases tend to be four or five.

If you sell in smaller boxes, then you end up with twice as many "useless" command pieces.

I think that the regiment sizes that GW sells their figures in are quite reasonable. you never buy a single unit of core. If you do, you aren't "playing the game right". Is it really that bad to buy three boxes to make two complete regiments?

The 16 man boxes are ideal for those of us wanting a largish support unit. That's what those boxes are packaged with in mind. GW knows you will be purchasing multiple boxes for multiple regiments anyway. With many of the kits, it works out in your favor, you buy two boxes and get a nice sized main battle line regiment, and then use the remainder for a smaller support ranged unit or flanking unit (depending on the army).

Think things through a bit more . . .

Cacodemon
11-04-2005, 12:01
Personally, my most frowned-upon boxes of models are the Empire and Orc grunt infantry with 19 per box, effectively forcing you to get that one missing model from somewhere else to field a whole unit, and the Bretonnian Men-at-arms, which don't follow the "cost per point" system which GW seemingly follows (meaning that more powerful figures cost more).

I happen to like the idea that you could field the unit straight out of the box without any extra hassle, and right now some of the boxes aren't ideal for that purpose, in my humble opinion.

And the 40k four figures per box is something that I've seen on the online catalog of a local store, I'll look into it when I pop there the next time.

BullBuchanan
11-04-2005, 15:59
Since the largest costs of plastic minis are moulds and design, why have the # of sprues per box dropped from 5 to 4 in most of the new plastic sets? (i.e. Skellies get 5 sprues per box, for a total of 20 models, but Chaos only gets 4 sprues for 16 minis.)

Although there is no strict formula is this regard, there is a relationship between the number of models in a regiment set and the size of units people are likely to take, based vaguely on size and points value. On the whole, most regiments are sixteen-strong. Smaller, weedier troops such goblins, Skaven and such come in twenty-strong regiments, while harder units such as Chaos warriors come in smaller units, and cavalry comes in half-strength units (i.e. Eight silver helms compared to sixteen High Elf spearmen). These days the largest cost is in packing 100,000+ boxes, where the difference between putting five frames and two frames in a box can make a considerable difference to the profitability of a product. Our plastics strategy, like so many other aspects of the range management, is constantly being updated in light of new technologies, demand and planning, and so too are the numbers of models produced in plastic.


So if this is the case, with GW Bs'ing that players love to field 4 wide models and they do everything they can to accomodate them, then why is everything else made by GW centered by 5 wide.

Movement Trays come in 5x4 and 5x2

GW sells full regiment metal boxes at their online store. There are always 20 models plus command. These models are never ranked up in 4x6,6x4 or any other formation, they are always 5x5

Warhammer Rulebook- Most of the units depicted are 5 wide there are a few 4 and a few 6 wides but the overwhelming majority is 6 wide.



Now people have said that upgrading a box to twenty would screw over those looking for a different regiment size. First off if GW were to up their model count per box 4 models and 1n some cases, I highly doubt a price increase. Things that come 20 to a box now run the same price as the 16 boxes. Furthermore lets run the scenario out

Models per unit With current layout

11- First off this is bogus. I have NEVER known anyone to field a unit of 11, but anyway. You buy 2 boxes and you have two units plus 10 models left over, too bad gotta buy another box.

15- You have 1 model left over.

19- If you field a unit of 19 and plan to add a character to it, then some armies will allow you to buy a box and be done, in others you'll be 3 models short.

20- You are 4 models short per box. you get 2 units out of three boxes and have 8 left over. This is the largest percentage of extra models in the comparison.

25- You currently are 9 models short per box. You get 2 units per every 4 boxes.




Now for the WITH 20 Per Box

11- Ok so now your 11 man unit has 9 models left over per box. You buy a blister or a command unit and all of a sudden you have 2 units per box.

15- These are the people most affected by an increase in box size, however because box sizes are now based on 5, those 5 extra models could easily be contributed to another unit, or you would get 4 units with every 3 purchased boxes. Either way not terribly bad.

19- You now end up with the perefct amount you need plus 1 model, no matter what army you play. This is the cushiest position to be in, because it gives you your full regiment plus an additional model if you decide someday you wnat to pull the character and go twenty models strong. You can also use the model for conversions, since so many people love to do them.

20- Finally now you get 1 unit 1 box or two units 1 box if you want to split up what units you turn the box into. really no matter how you break it up, you are going to be ok. This is probably the overwhelming majority of core-unit sizes.

25- You are still in a poor position, however 1/2 as poor as before. Now being 5 models short instead of 9 this gives you eiether 3 units every four boxes. or two units every 3, a 30 dollar savings for this indivual if they only want 2 units.



So when you take a close look at this you can see that the most common median for everyone would be 20 models a box. This would get rid of the uneven numbers, and pretty much be more favorable and save more cash for everyone.

So if someone wants to dispute it with "It's fine the way it is" be my guest. Anyone who can read can see it, and see that it indeed helps almost everyone, where as the current system is only advantageous to some.

Ursca
11-04-2005, 16:14
I'll just add that the movement trays fit either 4 25mm models across, or 5 20mm models across.

BullBuchanan
11-04-2005, 16:20
I'll just add that the movement trays fit either 4 25mm models across, or 5 20mm models across.

Arnt all core 20mm? Thats really what we are talking about in this situation. sure they may fit 25mm also, but in all pictures regarding core units GW always pictures them 5 across in their movement trays.

taer
11-04-2005, 16:55
Nope. All chaos core are on 25 mm. Orcs are on 25mm.

Bruen
11-04-2005, 17:07
First off if GW were to up their model count per box 4 models and 1n some cases, I highly doubt a price increase. Things that come 20 to a box now run the same price as the 16 boxes.

It was at this point that I realised that you have no clue. 4 extra models for free? Not in this reality.

I'm out of here.

pyremius
11-04-2005, 19:28
Lizardmen have 25mm core. In the standard list Skinks are skirmishers only, so their 20mm base is irrelevant. In a Southlands list, though, (and possibly for the new Rise of Sotek list) they could be used in ranks.

Incidentally, Skinks come 24 to a box, and the unit has two different weapon options.

Gop
11-04-2005, 23:10
Not defending GW, coz they will have marketing strategies. Its like putting an odd number of bread slices. You'll have to buy another loaf.

Imbroglio
12-04-2005, 18:10
My last fantasy army it wasn't a problem anyway. I played Dark Elves, so there were 16 in the box. I just bought them two at a time, built a unit of 20 spear eleves, and 12 RxB elves.

Worked out for me,

-- Imbroglio

Sir_Glonojad
12-04-2005, 18:14
Actually, I built 16 Crossbowmelves myself (allowing me to field 10-12 with extra models for command, should I need one), though when Warriors got re-priced (points wise) I remodelled four of them into spears and got an extra box.
Still, as I'd rather have 25 speardruchii, I still need to get extra 4 or 5 models, and the only option is to get another box :(.

heldane
13-04-2005, 13:32
If its really that much of a problem then order the models direct from GW Mail order. Get yourself a box of dwarves and then a sprue and a shield sprue. Grand total $37.50.

Do it through the local GW store and its free postage.



Incedentally, using the prices on the GW US store page a box of 16 Warriors is $30.

To buy the components seperately will cost you $35 (4 shield sprues, 4 warrior sprues and a command sprue)


Just bite the bullet and pay the cash, stop whinging to us. Also remember that this is a luxury hobby, its something you do because you can, not because theres a guy with a gun to the side of your head telling you if you dont then you'll die.


Cheers

Dan

Cacodemon
13-04-2005, 19:55
Just bite the bullet and pay the cash, stop whinging to us.

Aahh, the fanboy mentality. If you don't like the opinions in this discussion, stop reading. It's not like there's someone pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to read.

Auzu
13-04-2005, 21:42
Aahh, the fanboy mentality. If you don't like the opinions in this discussion, stop reading. It's not like there's someone pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to read.

That is his opinion I would suggest that you respect it. I would also strongly advice that you don't throw a "fanboy" label at anyone that dosn't agree with you.

Thank you.

Crazy Harborc
14-04-2005, 00:57
There are those who do not (or haven't yet learned to) care about "value pricing". I do wish I did not have to care about "price" but I do.

Recently, a company got a great deal on the price of tin (it's in all metal minies). The company now had a good opprotunity to make extra profits. They and all other metal minies makers had raised their prices in 2004, when the tin market was all but shut off by China (no rant about that here).
Well guess what!!

Old Glory, a maker of good metal minies, lowered their prices back to pre-tin crisis levels. 30 foot or 10 cav. were $33(USA), back to $29(USA) Some prices like for command bags, weapons(metal javelins, spears, pikes etc) are different.

What other minies makers have passed on savings to their customers? What other minies makers even promised to try? Oid Glory promised and did it.

therisnosaurus
14-04-2005, 02:18
HERESY :P

tis a fair point, but they only did it because they got a great buy on tin, so they could decrease their costs, still increase profit per item and the decreased costs would attract more buying making even MORE profit. I'm sure GW would do the same in the same scenario.


on the boxes, well, to be fair, I've never had a problem. most armies that have 6 per box, I'm going to field in regiments of either 16 or 24 (16 for chaos and lizzies, 24 for brets, elf spearmen, orcs, marauders and Tk skellies. note that the two that are fielded in units of 16 can generaly beat the **** out of anything, and those that are in 24's NEED the outnumbering bonus that will generaly give them to win combats. the tweny a box troops i will almost never field in units less than 30- VC skellies, zombies, gobbos, empire soldiers and so forth. gobbos idealy need 40 per unit, but in each of the above cases it's 3 boxes for 2 units exact or 2 for 1 in the case of gobbos. gnoblars go in units of 20, so I have 4 left for pets and skinks generaly go into two units of 12, about the right size IMHO.

for your dwarves, buy 4 boxes. that gives you 64 models. two units of 20 clansmen and 2 units of 12 crossbowmen. can you do much better than that?. if you just want a SINGLE unit, then buy the sprue, just make sure you do all your bits along with it and if you live in australia, use the US online store, not the UK :P, but to tell the truth, I've never had the need to do so. even better- say you want longbeards, use the great weapons, add a bit more beard with GS, paint em up pretty and voila ! instead of spending (going on australian money here) 5x16 dollars +18 for command for a total of 98 dollars for the regiment you spend a mere 50 (+12 for the GS if you want to be pciky). some people need to be reminded, I think, that if you didn't have plastics, they would be metal, and that would mean instead of paying say 50 bucks for a unit of knights, you would be paying 128. almost three times the price. want ten in a unit? buy another box, you are STILL saving money and you have 6 models left over for the bitz box or another smaller unit. the same applies to metals- 20 metal skellies with command used to cost 102 bucks. the 20 man unit when it came out cost 35. you could get 60 for only 3 bucks more.

to sum it up, i can really see no point in the argument- the plastics for both cost effectivness, quality and customiseability are amazing value, and even people on a budget can run quite well off plastics


as I final note, i'd like to point out that my armies are pretty much exclusively plastic, the majority of characters included. they are fluffy, relatively competetive, look great and cost frolic all. as in 400 bucks for 4000 points of empire (about 300 US dollars). in my eyes, that's pretty decent value. (okay, so I got some of it at a sale :P)

daryl_ks
14-04-2005, 03:35
You could just buy three boxes (3x16 = 48) and get two units of 24!!!!

that's even cooler... and you get a bigger ARMY!!!!!


buuhhaaaaaaahhahaha!!!

Cheers!

Daryl,


Vut seriously, I love having a few extra figures in there as it allows me more room for cutting slicing and dicing little plastic soldiers into new and exciting forms of plastic toy soldier... and that's fun.

heldane
14-04-2005, 19:31
Aahh, the fanboy mentality. If you don't like the opinions in this discussion, stop reading. It's not like there's someone pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to read.


Im not a fan boy, I dont like shelling out so much of what little of my hard earned cash I have to GW.


Sure I could use cheaper websites and get stuff at up to 30% less but I prefer to pay in a GW store. I play in my local on a regular basis and im almost always in there on a day off painting while the guys work.

Now I could but stuff cheaper and do the same but I doubt the stafff in the store would be pleased with that and I for one would hate myself for being so ckeecky. I enjoy my hobby and can afford to shell out the cash I need.

Besides its not like the price rises arent something that is just sprung on us. GW tell you 3-4 months in advance. I take advantage of this to buy in anything I feel I might need before the prices rise - if I find out that I wont need it i put it on ebay at the price I boutgh it and someone gets the unit at the same price I bought it.



I apologise for my somewhat odd mentatilty towards it and what little morals I feel I display towards my hobby, but thats how I am.



Cheers

Dan

Trunks
14-04-2005, 21:32
GW tell you 3-4 months in advance. I take advantage of this to buy in anything I feel I might need before the prices rise - if I find out that I wont need it i put it on ebay at the price I boutgh it and someone gets the unit at the same price I bought it.

That is exactly why they "warn" people in advance, because it causes a buying frenzy before the prices rise.

Crazy Harborc
15-04-2005, 00:42
Until a couple of years ago, there were NO official GW stores within 4 hours drive of my area. For 25 plus years there were no GW stores near here.

I do buy from the local indies not just on-line at a discount. I buy a little bit at the GW store. I am not the only one who thinks that after 25 plus years of no "GW" stores to use and full list prices anyway............I've got a few years coming of GW's free table use.