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Carlos
04-05-2007, 18:48
Right first off let me make this clear: THIS IS A THREAD FOR DISCUSSION OF ARMY SPECIFIC RULES. PLEASE DO NOT TANGENT OFF ABOUT OVERWATCH, SAVE MODIFIERS AND TO HIT MODIFIERS.

With the advent of the 4th edition Codexes (Eldar, DAngels) we have a number of old 2nd edition rules returning to play. For example the actually-not-that-controvertial Combat Squads rule as well as the Avatar and his molten blood, plus Harlequins.

So, for thiose of you old enough to remember: What army-specific rules from 2nd ed would you like to see return?

HiveFleetEzekial
04-05-2007, 19:00
Well, since people complain about them so much currently..

Re-introduce JAMMING on AssCannons...?

Some of the hand-held, throwable grenades. (even grenade launchers as wargear for characters) Like the old smoke grenades, and all the rules that went with them (expanding, shrinking, moving, causing individual troops inside units that are inside the smoke to randomly move around, possibly taking them out of unit coherency) Dunno how I'd feel about the all-mighty vortex grenade returning though. Those things were nasty!

wingedserpant
04-05-2007, 19:04
Movement values...I think they were 2nd edition, I don't know. I'm young and wanting to learn...

chivalrous
04-05-2007, 19:09
I'd really like to see the return of the army specifics in game mechanics, such as the Tyranid rule where every enemy unit had to make a dice rule to see if something insidious had crept into the machinery, or a brain bug had taken over the mind of one of the troopers.
The Orks were able to double their strategy rating because of the impetus of a Waaagh (so something along those lines of Orks are the attacker in a scenario).
Imperial Gurad always received a preliminary bombardment and I think were always allowed to hold things back in reserve.

My memory is sketchy because I mainly played with Eldar, Necrons and Space marines in second edition.

Oh, on the subject of Necrons, bing back the scarab rule that reduced the armour value of a vehicle and their ability to self destruct!


Movement values...I think they were 2nd edition, I don't know. I'm young and wanting to learn...
I think that's part of the tangent that the OP wanted to avoid...

Slaaneshi Slave
04-05-2007, 19:20
Since you don't want me to mention modifiers... :p

A Psychic phase!

A Leadership characteristic which means something!

Onisuzume
04-05-2007, 19:30
Re-introduce JAMMING on AssCannons...?

A Leadership characteristic which means something!
I'll second these 2 notions.

And the movement values would also be nice. (that way people fear the speed of genestealers again)

Though imo the ASM and to-hit modifiers *should* return.
Don't care about overwatch though.

Bunnahabhain
04-05-2007, 19:32
Guard off board artillery , ie the preliminary and in game bombardments.

Split weapons teams

Mounted command squads, and the associated use of Rough riders as standard troops.

Storm troopers super duper lasguns being equivilent to a bolter.

Ronin_eX
04-05-2007, 20:16
Well since everything else I want to see back from 2nd edition is OT... :p

I will agree on the movement stat and bringing back running. The movement stat was much better than any of the "fleet of *" rules as they didn't need a special rule in order to explain why they move quickly. Taking out special rules (even USRs) where there can exist a general rule that applies to the whole game is always better as it makes for a more unified system.

I'd also like to see the psychology rules brought back mainly for things like Orks (hate and frenzy), Chaos (fear and terror), and even the guard (Ogryn with stupidity!). It would really bring that leadership stat into play a lot more and it would certainly give chaos an extra dimension beyond MEQ's with montrous creatures.

Jamming on an assault cannon would be great as well, that weapon needs to be dangerous to the user as well. I say any time 3 ones are rolled it explodes and kills the user or counts as a weapon destroyed (assault cannon) result and also causes a glancing hit on vehicles. Might see it used less as the be all, end all weapon in marine armies (it would be nice to see more variation in terminator squads).

susu.exp
04-05-2007, 20:47
Summoning points. It was a brilliant rule, though it would have to be adapted for Tseentch at least to fit with the way psychic powers work now (maybe give them D3 points for every unit with the MoT in the controling players movement phase?). Would remove the Siren Bomb and represent deamons being called to places where the respective emotions they feed on are present.

Ork weapons. Itīs good to hear the Shokk attack gun might make a come back, but I hope so do the lifta droppa and the pulsa rokkit. And custom weapons, the old friend of lootas.

Speaking of Orks: Wierdboyz and Madboyz! Ah fink Iīm gonna...

Vehicles ramming. Cities of death brought some of it back, now give at least some armies the opportunity to make kamikaze runs with their vehicles (Tau, IG and Orks for instance). Would the Tau crash a Piranha into a Monolith for the greater good? Absolutely.

Bloodknight
04-05-2007, 22:11
What Bunnahabhain said. All of it, but especially the preliminary bombardment and the call-in artillery strikes.

Vaktathi
04-05-2007, 22:28
I'd like to see a Wierboy with a giant foot template psychic attack. (so two things I guess)

ReDavide
04-05-2007, 22:30
The return of the wraithguards' "Oops I fell down!" wounding rules. :p

Or, more seriously, the return of monofilament guns whose rules actually give them some flavor. Flame templates + initiative checks + entanglement > Strength & AP.

Sinzaren
04-05-2007, 23:38
Personally I'd like to be able to equip characters and squads a bit more. I used to love being able to make something uneque to play with. a squad make up that others didn't have, my own Marine Captain that was different to everyone elses. now everything just seems to be too similar. I know this is better form the tourny and younger player side of things but its a real miss for me. knocked me off playing 40k for 6 years and I'm only just starting back now.

Sinz

GreenDracoBob
05-05-2007, 00:43
Vehicles ramming. Cities of death brought some of it back, now give at least some armies the opportunity to make kamikaze runs with their vehicles (Tau, IG and Orks for instance). Would the Tau crash a Piranha into a Monolith for the greater good? Absolutely.

Well the Tau blow themselves for the Greater Good, so ramming isn't out of the question. Though I can't recall where that is in Cities of Death. Care reminding me?

As someone who never played 2nd Edition, I can't really comment, but many ideas I've seen in this thread seem pretty cool. The bombardments, the beefed-up Hellguns, thrown grenades, psychology and movement stats are something I've always been fond of. Maybe a few other things not mentioned here, but once again: what do I know?

WoW_Auron
05-05-2007, 01:12
Give us Shokk Attack gunz! not a rule per se, but i want to see them! We're they 2nd, or 3rd? I forget! Waaaagh!

Arkzein
05-05-2007, 01:39
Daemon world and LaTD, but that is coming eventually apparently, along with Huron soon.

More variation in the basic stats. Chaos Veterans being BS and WS 5 for example. Right now it's 3, 4 and 5 everwhere, (With Chaos 4, the odd 5 or 6). *shrug* everything feels very "samey" since 3rd. Used to love the progression of champions as well.

Oh and daemon Psychic powers based on the size of the unit.

lars4life
05-05-2007, 03:22
I would like to see the nids FU chart come back.

Jones is acting strangely................ God I miss that..............

Ork Comedy & randomness rules

Imperial Guard Preliminary bombardment ( I know its been said, but it was cool)

As broken as psykers could be, I miss the Psychic Phase. I loved the concept of 2 (or more) mega powerful beings locked in spiritual and physical combat.

Leonidas300
05-05-2007, 06:09
How about a return of more varried damage tables for vehicles. Maybe not a different table for each vehicle, but one for each class, or one for each armour value. Some of those tables were fun.

susu.exp
05-05-2007, 08:57
Well the Tau blow themselves for the Greater Good, so ramming isn't out of the question. Though I can't recall where that is in Cities of Death. Care reminding me?

One of the things that got rammed regularly was buildings. And thatīs back somewhat through wrecking equipment. The vehicle to vehicle ramming has not been reintroduced anywhere.

wighti
05-05-2007, 09:12
Movement rates, that'd be on the top of my list. It really gave a feeling of being different when your basic guardsman would move 4" and an eldar would be going at 5".

There's one thing tho that I want to mention, while being able to customize your characters more in 2nd edition, it also had some really inherent flaws. I really, *really*, dont want to see characters being beefed up to the power level they were at.

Terminator captain with a displacer field, need I say more?

sigur
05-05-2007, 10:29
Movement rates, that'd be on the top of my list. It really gave a feeling of being different when your basic guardsman would move 4" and an eldar would be going at 5".
...

True. I just recently found out that a sprinting Eldar counts as fast-moving target, therefore you'd get a -1 modifier to shooting at him/her. That made it just more interesting.

Otherwise, the whole Tyranid special rules were a nice idea. They might have taken it a wee bit too far (maybe not) but it was nice and characterful. It really showed how ...unfortunate you must feel when having to fend off a Tyranid attack.

Anyway, call-in artillery strikes were a very cool rule, as well as preliminary bombing. Not sure if the ability to split up squads plays that much of a role now.

For Orks: Everything. I'm quite keen on seeing what will happen to the Orks in 2008.

Just yesterday I thought of how cool the old demon summoning points were. It would be really cool if they reintroduced them in some way but I doubt they will.

Iradeus
05-05-2007, 11:41
Like has been posted several times, movement rates is first and foremost for me. Fleet makes units too generic and similar to each other without giving armies their own individual feel during movement (which, after playing fantasy, makes up an even larger part of my 40k game now).

Mort
05-05-2007, 12:38
GIVE ME MY PLASMA BLASTER BACK!!!!!!!

well...
apart from that,some of the more devastating grenades(rad,vortex,virus) and all the cool ork artillery like shokk attack gun and pulsa rokkits.

reintroduce the weapon team rule for guard.as well as ramming rules that can actually kill infantry.

oh,and there was that graviton gun...

grimsnagga
05-05-2007, 12:56
Jones is acting strangly... I loved that. Lost an entire eldar squad to it and I loved it.

Detached IG heavy weapon teams
Rough rider command squads
IG veteran special abilities
Preliminary barrage

Allies(!)

Hellebore
05-05-2007, 13:10
Daemon world and LaTD, but that is coming eventually apparently, along with Huron soon.

More variation in the basic stats. Chaos Veterans being BS and WS 5 for example. Right now it's 3, 4 and 5 everwhere, (With Chaos 4, the odd 5 or 6). *shrug* everything feels very "samey" since 3rd. Used to love the progression of champions as well.

Oh and daemon Psychic powers based on the size of the unit.

That wouldn't work for BS, because it works on a base 5 system rather than 10, so putting the BS of a model up by 1 point is like putting the WS of a model up by 2.

If, on the other hand they made BS a comparable stat like WS, it would be a good idea. Imagine using the WS vs WS table to determine hits, but instead it is BS vs I or BS vs BS (an abstraction that could be passed off as ability to use and avoid ranged weapons).

Even the old to hit modifiers were dumb, because a BS 10 model with no modifiers had just as much chance of missing as a BS 6 model (1/6), and the only advantage came when stacks of mods were applied (so I can hit a dude behind a wall at long range on a 2+, whilst you need a 4+, but we both need a 2+ to hit a stationary guy in the open?:wtf:).

I don't think the jam rules need to be reintroduced, guns don't jam often enough to have a rule for it. Rather I think the idea of rending needs to be changed.

hellebore

WoW_Auron
05-05-2007, 13:16
Rather I think the idea of rending needs to be changed.

AGREEEEEEEED.

Especially with all this attention Assault Cannons get. I keep telling a mate of mine the gun itself is NOT "cheesy" its a range 24" Heavy4 S6 gun, big woop. It's the rending rule.
Granted it has a guarenteed efective range of 30" because everything able to use one can move 6" and still shoot one.

However, not an assault cannon discussion, even though they do seem to crop up everywhere :p

Personally i like the rules just the way they are. Hehe.

Captain Micha
05-05-2007, 13:27
I want grenades that do something other than negate cover.. (just give us some throwing rules... none of the overcomplicated crap)

Make Perils of the Warp something wicked.. like oh I don't know.... a daemon coming through..... instead of "oh noes my psyker took a wound"

more stuff involving leadership...

Arkzein
05-05-2007, 13:41
That wouldn't work for BS, because it works on a base 5 system rather than 10, so putting the BS of a model up by 1 point is like putting the WS of a model up by 2.

If, on the other hand they made BS a comparable stat like WS, it would be a good idea. Imagine using the WS vs WS table to determine hits, but instead it is BS vs I or BS vs BS (an abstraction that could be passed off as ability to use and avoid ranged weapons).

Even the old to hit modifiers were dumb, because a BS 10 model with no modifiers had just as much chance of missing as a BS 6 model (1/6), and the only advantage came when stacks of mods were applied (so I can hit a dude behind a wall at long range on a 2+, whilst you need a 4+, but we both need a 2+ to hit a stationary guy in the open?:wtf:).

I don't think the jam rules need to be reintroduced, guns don't jam often enough to have a rule for it. Rather I think the idea of rending needs to be changed.

hellebore

Aye, was just trying to avoid going into a non-army specific area just, Rules would need tinkering to make it worth having a 1-10 range and not giving too many advantages for a single increase, but that would take things away from the allmighty D6... ;) Guess I was just a fan of hero-hammer somewhat, extremely strong characters, damned tough elite troops and grunts that were, well, grunts. (More RPG-esque than a wargame mind)

Oh and as mentioned above, Allies. Orks fighting for Chaos again! *laughs*.

TeddyC
05-05-2007, 13:48
Would it not be easier to say which army specific rules you WOULDNT want back?

Captain Micha
05-05-2007, 13:49
Teddy, then I'd say -most- of 2nd edition ! *snicker*

I'm pretty happy with the rules as they are. minus the things I posted

Ironhand
05-05-2007, 14:02
I agree with Captain Micha. The current rules I think are quite good and a vast improvement over 2nd Edition. A lot of the things people have mentioned - vortex and virus grenades for instance - were horribly unbalanced, as were many of the other army "flavor" rules. If some more of them do come back, as the have in the DA Codex, they'll be something quite different with the same name, and hopefully much better balanced.

yabbadabba
05-05-2007, 14:04
If I want any 2nd ed rules then I just play 2nd ed or my mates and I make up a house rule based on it.

Can't see all the fuss myself. This version of 40K is completely different from 2nd ed. No point complicating things by bring back back old stuff as "official".

What I would like to see is GW release 2nd ed and RT again as downloads or special editions. That would be nice.

So overall, anything I am not happy with in this version I change. Apart from that I am happy.

Bolter Bait
05-05-2007, 14:12
Assault Cannons to jam again - they're finicky, awkward devices and stand out as weapons that should be seen to jam on the table top.

Carnifex Energy Field - IIRC, a Carnifex used to have a bio-electric field or somesuch that gave it a better save and could short out the Invulnerable saves of nearby units. Brought back in a sane form, something like a 6 or even a 5+ Invulnerable Save during the enemy turn, or you can instead elect to not have a personal Invulnerable save next turn and use it to instead negate the Invulnerable save of any models in BtB with the fex for that assault phase.

Boneswords for Warriors - I actually have no idea what their rules would be, since giving the unit a continuous Catalyst ala the Tyrant would not be fun for anyone.

Grenades and Missiles! - Bringing back the old grenades and missiles sans the insanity that came with them would be nice. Don't make them overused by allowing anyone to have them but allowing special units (veterans, perhaps?) to wield them would be fine. I know that the Elysian drop-troops have the option to give models with access to the armoury a combi lasrifle-krak grenade launcher and it would be nice to see more units gain similar weapons.

Overwatch - Bring it back but only for automated sentry turrets. In the process, give most armies some form of sentry turret.

Bloodknight
05-05-2007, 14:24
@Susu: Orks can "ram" other vehicles, as their vehicles can get CC gear, which only works against other vehicles.

Onisuzume
05-05-2007, 14:30
Rather I think the idea of rending needs to be changed.

AGREEEEEEEED.

Especially with all this attention Assault Cannons get. I keep telling a mate of mine the gun itself is NOT "cheesy" its a range 24" Heavy4 S6 gun, big woop. It's the rending rule.
Granted it has a guarenteed efective range of 30" because everything able to use one can move 6" and still shoot one.

However, not an assault cannon discussion, even though they do seem to crop up everywhere :p

Personally i like the rules just the way they are. Hehe.
Afaik; assault cannons should never have gotten rending in the first place.
Rending is a TYRANID rule originally made for TYRANIDS so they have a way to deal with enemy armour. It was given to them in an attempt to make Genestealers as scary as they were back in the second edition, where rending-like rule were non-existant except, perhaps, for the Harlequin's Kiss.

Assault Cannons to jam again - they're finicky, awkward devices and stand out as weapons that should be seen to jam on the table top.
Which could justify a strength increase. (to S7, since it's a "self-loading machine autocannon" used by Space Marine terminators and select other units)
Sustained fire dice would be an excellent way to limit the # of shots.

Carnifex Energy Field - IIRC, a Carnifex used to have a bio-electric field or somesuch that gave it a better save and could short out the Invulnerable saves of nearby units. Brought back in a sane form, something like a 6 or even a 5+ Invulnerable Save during the enemy turn, or you can instead elect to not have a personal Invulnerable save next turn and use it to instead negate the Invulnerable save of any models in BtB with the fex for that assault phase.
If the 'fex gets that; then shouldn't a hierodule get something similiar?

Boneswords for Warriors - I actually have no idea what their rules would be, since giving the unit a continuous Catalyst ala the Tyrant would not be fun for anyone.
They more or less functioned like upped power weapons... So lets make them power weapons again.

Grenades and Missiles! - Bringing back the old grenades and missiles sans the insanity that came with them would be nice. Don't make them overused by allowing anyone to have them but allowing special units (veterans, perhaps?) to wield them would be fine. I know that the Elysian drop-troops have the option to give models with access to the armoury a combi lasrifle-krak grenade launcher and it would be nice to see more units gain similar weapons.
Hallucinogen Grenades anyone? Just reading the table that came with it is good for a laugh.

lomo
05-05-2007, 14:58
Make Juggernauts of Khorne decent again, and bring back jamming on SM assault canons. Thats just a couple army specific rules that I could think of off the top of my head.

I do semi-like the 4th edition 40k rules in general, I think they are better suited to playing tournaments and playing quick games at veterens night. I do miss the in-depth nature of 2nd edition, and the actual game just seemed to more sense. More of a simulation. Whereas the new game just seem too much dumbed down, IMO the only other main thing that has improved (other than speed) is the assault rules.

Hellebore
05-05-2007, 15:10
A special rule is a special rule, I don't think that just because it first appeared in one codex it should stay there. True grit was originally space wolves only, now look at it.

The choppa rule has also proliferated.

The thing with genestealers is that they used to be S6, making them S4 required either points reduction or something wierd, hence rending.

The rending rule is wierd any way - it bypasses several core mechanics, like always fail on a 1, and causes automatic wounding - the only things that did that back in 2nd ed were the thunder hammer and Kiss iirc.

I think rending should be simplified and made less nasty, something like: every hit that rolls a 6 counts as ap 1, thus more likely to kill, and always causing penetrating hits, but not on vehicles with really high AV.

A genestealer should not be able to blow up a land raider, nor should a machine gun.

At least if they lessened the extra d6 to a d3, we wouldn't see such ridiculous things happening against vehicles...

Hellebore

Onisuzume
05-05-2007, 15:53
I think rending should be simplified and made less nasty, something like: every hit that rolls a 6 counts as ap 1, thus more likely to kill, and always causing penetrating hits, but not on vehicles with really high AV.

A genestealer should not be able to blow up a land raider, nor should a machine gun.
I guess, but then again; genestealers are known to claw their way through almost anything. I'm currently reading IA4 and a genestealer simply clawed it's way through an armoured door without really trying hard.

The thing with genestealers is that they used to be S6, making them S4 required either points reduction or something wierd, hence rending.
They also halved their attacks.
Imo; I'd be willing to scrap the entire "rending" rule alltogether.
As long as my genestealers get their old statline back. (which means improved WS, S, I and A)
And maybe give the broodlord the old patriarch statline.(except the movement value...)

Curufew
05-05-2007, 16:02
Movement Rates
Modifiers. To hit and armour save modifiers for Close Combat only
Psychology tests like fear, terror
Grenades that you can throw and do damage
Invulable saves that stack.
Vehicles that are actually worth their points

Bolter Bait
05-05-2007, 16:15
Carnifex Energy Field - IIRC, a Carnifex used to have a bio-electric field or somesuch that gave it a better save and could short out the Invulnerable saves of nearby units. Brought back in a sane form, something like a 6 or even a 5+ Invulnerable Save during the enemy turn, or you can instead elect to not have a personal Invulnerable save next turn and use it to instead negate the Invulnerable save of any models in BtB with the fex for that assault phase.
If the 'fex gets that; then shouldn't a hierodule get something similiar?I was thinking more of giving the Fex an option to take a bio-electric biomorph if the player wanted instead of making it standard on the fex (IIRC, a 2nd ed fex had the field and a 36" bio-plasma ranged attack as standard). Going back through the FW bio-titan list and opening them up to biomorphability and adding the electric field to that list of options would solve the issue of why a lowly fex has something awsome while a heirodule doesn't.

Although I'd be more concerned with the main 40k rules rather than the FW "optional" rules. Bring back 2nd edition rules to the main game first and then we'll worry about porting them over to FW. :D

susu.exp
05-05-2007, 17:49
@Susu: Orks can "ram" other vehicles, as their vehicles can get CC gear, which only works against other vehicles.

Dang, your right. Shows how little I take my greenskins out these days... Itīs still not built in, "every vehicle has it" ramming. And that just added a lot of fun mayham. The Rhino driver that got killed and landed on the gas, making the Rhino run down that building with the enemys Heavy weapons... Priceless. When pointing a tank in some direction could mean your opponent wouldnīt shoot at it, because it might do a lot more damage to his army blowing up. And when you kept on pouring fire into disabled machines to prevent them from doing stuff like that.

Bloodknight
05-05-2007, 20:39
Yes; we had a situation like that in a 2nd edition game which I remember dearly: a unit of ratlings killed the driver of an ork buggy, which went out of control and ran into the mission objective, destroying it.