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View Full Version : Ideas to save GW. (retro gamer fun!)



dancingmonkey
05-05-2007, 09:33
Here is a random thought I have had buzzing around for a few days.
Having spent the last few days slacking off from my rubbish new job, (I was migrating two filing systems into one, well worth
getting a degree for that!)and witnessing the interesting activities withing GW, I statred to postulate possible things
they could do to relieve this bad situation.

I will state catagorically now: THIS IS NOT A RUMOUR, HALF RUMOUR OR OVERHEARD SNIPPET OF INFO,
this is just me dwelling on the sad state of affairs in my hobby, and musing on the good old days (tm) of GW.

Based on current technology etc, what would really be great is a re-release of Gorkamorka. I know it had its critics,
and it was a silly game, but I had a few ideas that might be worth thinking about.

Step one, combine all three books (rules/uvver/digganob) into one SOFTBACK book, retailing at around 15-20.
This would be a stright reprint/combination, so no extra work there really. No box etc, no scenery, no cards.
Scenery for Gorka is pretty easy, (grab some rocks from the garden and off you go!), this book could also include
the articles from WD, (remember articles, they are those funny word things that sit alongside pretty pictures in
some magazines... ohh zing!)

Next stage is obviously the models. As we are all aware the orks are still lingering on the edge of the radar,
what better way to welcome them into the light than with a nice new (old) game that will introduce newcomers to orks,
and but a smile on the face of us oldies! Rather than have two mediocre gangs in a box with the rules, have a mob box.
Contents would be 1x Nob, 2x spanner, 6x boyz, 3x yoof, maybe a grot as an extra.

These would all be torso/leg combos, then the rest of the sprue would be a multitude of arms/weapons/glyph plates and
random orks bitz, so no two gangs would look alike. Im sure this could be whizzed up on the old Computer sculpter thingie.

The box would also include 2x trukk/track models. Perhaps watered down versions of the new mod able kits, and a
good showcase of what is coming. These would again be quite customisable.

Pricing could come in at around 25, with 2 vehicles and twelve orks. These could then be split into seperate boxes for
increasing gang size/ switiching to a 40k army.

I really feel there is some life in this idea, and wouldn't require much effort. It might get GW a bit of
respect back from those of us who have got a bit miffed with their attitude, and Im sure it would shift a whole load of
new orks when they come out!

As I stated before, this isn't a rumour, its just one haggard old gamers wishful thoughts,and ideas for GW's
possible salvation.

Thoughts and comments as ever.
Any other suggestions should be added below, maybe GW will get wind and wise up. (yeah right!)

Monkey out...

dodicula
05-05-2007, 09:52
entirely too reasonable, plus marketing would never go for it, because you didn't use the word "leveraging"

Coasty
05-05-2007, 09:56
Anything with Orks in it is fine by me!

Snapchuck
05-05-2007, 10:16
No not enough, I'm afraid.

Re-release Gorkamorka and Epic, and you're in for sure.

Crube
05-05-2007, 10:20
Certainly need more than just gorkamoka...

Personally, couldnt stand the game, but there are many fans...

Doing something similar for other classic games could work... EPic, manoWar etc would be great

rev
05-05-2007, 10:29
If:

1) GW focussed on the individual not the targets like they used to, I believe they'de be hitting targets with no problems. For instance, If I still got free superglue/other bitz with everybig order - i'd stop buying pick and mix style from online retailers and consider lumping my purchases and buying frmo my local store again. (obviously this needs to be coupled with a different approach to setting pirces, i.e not keep increasing them and therefore pricing themselves out of the market compared to the online sellers)

2) I know they get told to do it, but i wish the GW staff would stop trying to sell every new toy to the vets. I'm not going to take out a WD subsciption, no matter how many extra issues you give me - because even the free ones will be nearly 50% advertising which is exaclty what I dont want. When GW remembers to treat its vets on at least an equal footing with the kids, I think it'll see more of our money.

3) Support the game we enjoy, not the ones which have the most potential for profit. I know they need to make money, but as a vet i'd buy a bloodbowl team now and again on impulse if the store stocked them, I simply wont buy the latest tau auxillery box set or whatever they're trying to push that month to meet target.

just a few off the top of my nonce

The Dark One
05-05-2007, 14:16
Bring back Warhammer Quest and Man O'War and i'll be a very happy bunny

RobC
05-05-2007, 16:28
Didn't Gorkamorka sell very badly indeed, hence its shorter-than-usual store lifespan?

That said, my plan to revive GW retail's fortunes would be to widen choice of stock. We're all aware that the generally tiny shops GW uses can only hold so much range, but it is in my eyes essential to widen this range beyond the 'core' games.

Currently, the stores are only appealing to those who are young, have large amounts of disposable income (their own or their parents'), and have the time and willingness to play large-scale wargames. How about all of those who want, say, a board game that can be played in a couple of hours? Or a game that requires a small set of miniatures? Or, heaven forbid, a roleplay game?

GW as a company offers all these things and more. If they actually supported these ranges in-store then they'd get greater footfall, possibly leading to more cross-game purchases. Yes, clearly, the company directors are fully aware that WH40K/WFB/LotR make the highest margin, but it doesn't take a Harvard grad to know that lower-margin goods attract different parts of the demographic, who then buy other things. It's the kind of logic that has resulted in the seemingly inexorable rise of the supermarkets.

I'd also suggest that the larger GW stores try carrying other companies' products - but that would perhaps be a step too far, given direct price comparisons and the generally dismal attitude the rest of the industry has for GW after their little coup d'emografique in the late 80s.

Brinnyunlimited
05-05-2007, 16:53
I'd also suggest that the larger GW stores try carrying other companies' products.


I very much doubt GW would ever even dream of doing that. There's not a huge amount of profit in retailing other people's games, hence the lack of decent hobby game stores in the UK other than GWs and the only reason games like Warmachine and Confrontation aren't more popular here in the UK is because they are quite hard to get hold of. I would say a majority of GW hobbyists don't even KNOW there are alternatives to Warhammer and 40K. Advertising this fact would only turn more gamers away from the GW hobby and onto the competition.

I think GW should enforce it's specialist games more. I don't have time for huge scale Warhammer Battles anymore, but if my local GW catered for games like Blood Bowl, Necromunda and Warhammer Quest, i'd be in my local store a lot more than I am currently.

asmodai_dark86
05-05-2007, 16:56
Based on current technology etc, what would really be great is a re-release of Gorkamorka

Dont be silly. Nothing more to be said there really. If you want it, expect to see it when the Orks turn up for 40k...

I was about to do a whole deconstruction there, but then I realised your only actually talking about Gorkamorka, and it is in no way the solution to GW - they might turn a quick penny if they turned it into a computer game. 3rd person shooter, have it work a bit like a footie game (what I mean is change characters in the battle, inter battle options, hiring etc - a system that could also work for necromunda although a Gorkamorka game would be easier to make).

Specialist games are a money sink and its as simple as that - Yes there cool, but they cant get the kind of revenue they want, but in terms of money making there like mongoose publishing - no point in getting rid of whats on the table, so keep it back catalogue and leave people too it.

GW wants to make money? Fine. Start a new arm of investment. LOTR did well and proved that the company could have three systems on the go, but its now run its course and its time to put it to the side as a specialist game (so that it could get no more love then Necromunda et al...).

A new system would need more sophisticated rules (to entice back the people who've left), appeal to the old audience (the 40k/fantasy players who have matured), yet need to be distinctly different. Some kind of near future game wouldnt be a bad option (please no shouts of halo/gears of war/mechs yet), and it also means they could start from scratch and have everything in plastic.

Also, if it proves succesful then it can be expanded indefinately, if it doesnt, send it to specialist games and bring LOTR back into the main with a new edition/box set/whatever.

This would be possible given the sheer drive behind the new 40K edition - three rule books a year nearly? Yes I think cutting it back to 2 wouldnt hurt so that the necessary resources could be pumped into a new game.

Nyarlathotep
07-05-2007, 00:47
I know for a fact that GW think that Gorkamorka was a bad mistake as the target audience was too little... Just ork fans (this is why they released Digganob, to try to appeal to more players). And thinking along these lines, it was not a good idea.
Personally I loved it, but I doubt very much that it will ever see the light of day again.
BTW, If you look in the Necron codex, they nod there head in remembrance with the map of Angelis (the planet it was set on) with the pyramids on it.

dancingmonkey
07-05-2007, 10:58
I re read this one, and I think i kinda missed the point I was making, so feel free to ignore anything I said. (it was late, and I was tired, honest!)

I agree that gorka wasn't the best game ever (EPIC!!!) but it was fun. I think what I was tryint to illustrate is ideas for using the new tech to cheer up us old folks. I know they keep on harping on about lack of shop space ( I was working for GW when we did the focus on Spec games for about a year, you know, when you could get about half of anything usefull in store to play a game, all in shiny new boxes), so I know we will never see the full ranges in store, but I really think they need to bring back about of the old magic.

Gorka was my example, as this was an idea I had kicking around, but it applies to all the games. (especially epic). I think the mistake came in making the specialist games "special". It was like creating a two teir system.

"Ah your new here, play LOTR as its accesible, (being in the public eye and all)"

"Ah youve been playing a while, here are some great games that are only available via MO, and no one really plays cos they are hard to get hold of. But they make you cool and mysterious, (and a lonely gamer with no opponants!)"

Coupled with the seeming decision to make epic the most expensive game of all time. (How much for 4 landraiders!) Which is a shame as the new rules are actually rather good. It just means no one really can progress beyond the core three, which can get a bit tired.

GW has this supposed new model, of a gamer with their 1500 pt 40k and 2000 pt wh armies, which just seems slightly silly. I played with 3000+ in my early years of GW, but since working for them, and with the new environment, it seems so hard to get a game of this size! MY 10,000 pt DE army, and similar empire just feel lonely in the new climate.

Umm, ive really lost the thread of what I was saying, but basically, I feel GW should be a more rounded experience for all, and that by splitting of the older games, and killing support, they may have dug themselves deeper into their grave!

Old School
07-05-2007, 14:11
Can someone explain to me how the new CAD sculpting process works? Don't the sculptors make a 3-up model, which gets scanned in to the computer and then these moulds are created by robot? Is this right?

Why don't GW take OOP models, scan them in and have regular 'Retro' special deals. For example, the original RT Space Marines. If you look on eBay, these go for a lot of money. Even compared to the better sprues we have now. I'd also love one of the original SM dreadnoughts.

I really think GW should stop concentrating on what's new and shiny now, and go back and dig up some past greats. They don't have to redo EVERYTHING again, just once and while bring out a classic.

Fat chance that'll happen though, but I like to dream.

RobC
07-05-2007, 15:17
It's possible in theory, but it would require a complete set of untouched sprues, or the original masters. Also, GW would have to consider it worth their while to invest the time and money it takes to prepare such a project, and whether there would be sufficient sales of said range once all the work had been done.

I wouldn't hold my breath.

Old School
07-05-2007, 15:40
Of course it's not going to be a huge seller, but it'll attract back the veterans, which we all know GW have listed as low down in their priorities.

Zink
07-05-2007, 15:57
So many people in various places have said that specialists games lost money for GW. But did they ever really get any support? It was damned hard here to find any of them to look at or buy. Even now there's a GW store that I browse occasionally but I can't buy and never could buy certain things there. I wanted some of the newer Mordheim models years ago. Not in the store. Wanted a look at BFG. Not in the store. Recently wanted some warmaster or battle of five armies stands for a campaign I want to run. BoFA has a painted display in store but isn't available for sale and warmaster has nothing. I could be wrong but it seems to me they decided that they wouldn't sell and didn't give them any coverage and made it a self fulfilling prophecy. I'd like to see more from them in terms of smaller games games that don't cost $500+ dollars just to start. The amount of money and work that's needed to play is the main reason why I can't recruit new people to play with here. But a $50 board game allows people to play and get hooked on the idea on miniature games.

dodicula
07-05-2007, 16:25
I think you are on the right track with gorka morka, in the sense that GW needs intro games, i.e. games that can be played for well under a hundred dollars in initial outlay. There is sort of a gap that forms between veterens and newbs when the newbs get their first couple of regiments and the vets all want to play 1500+ and intro games like gorka morka help bridge that gap. Mordheim did a better job of this than Necromunda/Gorka Morka because it had all the races but GW needs something like this for both games, because warbands did start armies, and GW needs people to start new armies

Mr Zephy
07-05-2007, 16:29
Can't you just ask the store and they'll order one in, like mail order bitz?

snurl
08-05-2007, 11:36
Here's an idea- Have you ever seen a GW TV commercial?
People buy things they didn't even know they wanted after the nice TV tells them to. I think it would do wonders for sales, and also public exposure to wargaming in general.

Would it work?

The game is afoot
08-05-2007, 11:42
Well perhaps if they spent 2-3 million on TV advertising instead of throwing it down the toilet with Warhammer Online they would have been a lot better off.

snurl
08-05-2007, 11:46
You can put commercials on cable TV for way less than that, unless you are putting it on during the superbowl.
We did regional cable commercials for our Halloween attraction for less than 20,000. But then again, we did all of the production in house.

Osbad
08-05-2007, 12:57
When LotR was released as a part-work by De' Agostini (Battle Games in Middle-earth) it was initially advertised on TV. GW stores were inundated with people walking in off the street as a result, as well as the bagazine being so popular that they had to quadruple the size of the print run from initial esitmates and increase its run length by dozens...

Clearly GW don't think it would work for the normal games though...

Zink
08-05-2007, 13:43
Can't you just ask the store and they'll order one in, like mail order bitz?

I could. But as I live 200+ km from the store and am only there every month or two I didn't feel like it. Some of the stuff I just wanted a good look at before I threw a bunch of money away. My point is if they don't even offer their products in their stores how are people supposed to know about them and get interested in them? I buy mostly on line but sometimes I want a specific model and I'll buy it more expensie at the GW store just to have the one I want. But usually that model isn't available. The lack of advertising and accessibility is a problem IMO. Unless you're a hard core GW gamer you may not even know about most of their products because they aren't shown anywhere outside of White Dwarf or the GW websites.

Nyarlathotep
08-05-2007, 14:21
Well perhaps if they spent 2-3 million on TV advertising instead of throwing it down the toilet with Warhammer Online they would have been a lot better off.

I think that the money coming in from suscribed players will more than pay back the money invested. I think that the game could make GW an awful lot of money.

I think the reason the adverts for LoTR worked so well was because it was for LoTR, every one knows what that is. I dont think it would work so well for WFB or 40K (they would have done it by now if they thought it would)

TeddyC
08-05-2007, 17:28
focus on Bloodbowl, Necromunda, man o war and Epic.

Relegate LoTR to a specialist game where it deserves and where those past greats now sit only fondly remembered only by us it seems..

Attract all the vets back that way and turn GWs back into 'Hobby Centres' and not 'Toy Stores'

ZeroTwentythree
08-05-2007, 20:01
The real reason why Gorkamorka failed - typical gameplay:


"Ok I shoot at the trukk!"

*roll die - consult chart*

*roll die - consult chart*

*roll die - consult chart*

*roll die - consult chart*

*roll die - consult chart*

*roll die - consult chart*

*roll die - consult chart*

*roll die - consult chart*

"Damn, nothing happened. For my next shot..."

*repeat*

Llew
08-05-2007, 20:23
You can't fault GW for not being as concerned with the veteran players for a couple reasons.

First, a lot of people who have played for a long time are whiny. The moan and groan about how much better such and such unit used to be, or how the new stuff doesn't look as good, or how GW screws everything up when they try to change it.

Second, veterans probably won't bring the big chunks of cash that a new enthusiast will bring in. I have OCD where miniatures are concerned, so yeah, I'll buy new armies I don't even plan on playing, but most people are smarter than that. They'll keep their old army almost as a status symbol to prove that they've been in the game longer than anyone else. They'll buy nifty new units, but they probably won't drop a lot on new purchases.

If they've reached the easy-saturation point, then they need to work harder at bringing in new gamers. Unfortunately, wargames are a very specialized hobby. I *love* playing them, and I love painting miniatures. But I still have about 15 regiments of unopened plastics because I HATE SCRAPING OFF THE FRICKIN' MOLD LINES. In other words, wargaming isn't going to appeal to everyone, especially when people would rather sit down and play a game as opposed to sit down and build stuff to play the game later.

Their best bet is what they're doing: licensing GW products to computer games. They have a tremendous intellectual property built up over time. It lends itself to a variety of game experiences and has the potential to generate far more money for them than the wargames. And it may even encourage a few computer gamers to come over to the darkside of table-top gaming.

Re-doing and re-releasing old classics like Mighty Empires and Man O' War is smart too, but that's not going to stand any chance of bringing in a cash flow profit of millions of dollars a month. (I don't know their licensing deal for Warhammer Online, but I have to assume it would be lucrative for them if it takes off.)

GW is doing what it can and seems to be working hard at making money, even if we gamers don't always like how they go about it.

Templar Ben
08-05-2007, 20:24
focus on Bloodbowl, Necromunda, man o war and Epic.

Relegate LoTR to a specialist game where it deserves and where those past greats now sit only fondly remembered only by us it seems..

Attract all the vets back that way and turn GWs back into 'Hobby Centres' and not 'Toy Stores'

Why focus on those 4 lines you mentioned?

Why relegate Lord of the Rings to specialist games? How does it "deserve" that?

ZeroTwentythree
08-05-2007, 20:33
Their best bet is what they're doing: licensing GW products to computer games. They have a tremendous intellectual property built up over time. It lends itself to a variety of game experiences and has the potential to generate far more money for them than the wargames. And it may even encourage a few computer gamers to come over to the darkside of table-top gaming.



Totally agree. And I don't even play computer games. It's a way to make money with already developed concepts as well as promoting its other (tabletop games, books...) products. There may be some risk of cannibalizing and taking a small part of the market away from the tabletop products, but I would think the potential for a crossover in the opposite direction makes that a risk worth taking.

RobC
08-05-2007, 20:43
It depends how much money they actually make from licensing. There's little if any chance that they'll ever risk doing games in-house (not after the Climax debacle), and while licensing does increase awareness of their brand, it doesn't necessarily translate into new sales.

doomlanger
08-05-2007, 20:45
here's a radical idea on how to save gw...
Buy their toy soldiers and play their games!
Stop whining about how you think they've sold out, or that their models are too expensive cos here's the key point - no more GW means no more WFB,
40K or any of the other "specialist" systems you forum crowds seem to find so attractive.
i love these games too, and i for one get no pleasure from hearing bedroom businessmen bang on about how GW deserves this latest turn of events. so think about it. you can actually make a difference now.. every customer counts.

RobC
08-05-2007, 20:53
You're missing a crucial point.

There are pretty much only two ways that an unhappy GW 'hobbyist' can make their dissatisfaction known. The first requires that they spend huge amounts of money on company shares - an option very few if any of us can actually manage.

The second is to take our money elsewhere. 'Never mind what's been selling - it's what you're buying,' to quote a certain person. Companies tend only to listen when their finances are hit. Unfortunately, GW hasn't yet taken the hint that people are unable or unwilling to tolerate the continual price increases and lack of decent new product.

If GW was in trouble through no fault of its own, I would agree. But it's not, and to 'support' it in the way you suggest would only send the message to the directors that they were right all along.

Llew
08-05-2007, 21:13
I don't know the situation elsewhere, but my local hobby shop stocks a lot of GW stuff, but that's dropping. Why? Because they positively hate dealing with GW.

GW has developed a couple business tactics that are theoretically good for them, but absolutely gut their credibility with the independent game stores. The frequent price increases, lack of bits sales, direct-only specials and "ninja" release schedules, plus just a generally difficult-to-deal-with attitude has made it harder for stores to get excited about pushing their products.

I can go in on a weekend and see any number of games being played and demoed, but 9 times in 10, they're not GW games.

GW does need to do some repair work along their entire supply chain and completely revamp their marketing. But not everything they're doing is worthless.

There's enough value in their name and IP that, even if they completely tank things, someone will probably buy them up and continue in some manner.

Mr Zephy
08-05-2007, 21:19
I've recently been seeing GW stuff in my local hobby superstore, Hobbycraft. I don't have a local independent stockist. There were a few, but they've gone down. I think GW is justified in not trying too hard to please the Indie shops, because why be tied to a way of selling your stuff that evidently isn't working?

t-tauri
08-05-2007, 21:21
It depends how much money they actually make from licensing. There's little if any chance that they'll ever risk doing games in-house (not after the Climax debacle), and while licensing does increase awareness of their brand, it doesn't necessarily translate into new sales.
I'd argue that they're actually very poor at exploiting this. Where are the Dawn of War or Mark of Chaos tie-ins? Dawn of War has sold very well yet they've not released a "Dawn of War" branded starter box-a repack of Macragge with a DoW cover and a couple of scenarios and you've the chance of upping sales. Same for Mark of Chaos.

Mr Zephy
08-05-2007, 21:24
On these forums people were incessantly complaining as to the lack of a female farseer from the game. People actually want this stuff, and they're not doing it.

Exterminatus
08-05-2007, 22:16
You want bigger, better, shiny new models and excellent fluff? Money is needed to bring you these things my friend, and if we all stop purchasing from GW they will go down the drain.

GW is.......... you, the consumer.

TeddyC
08-05-2007, 22:26
Why focus on those 4 lines you mentioned?

Why relegate Lord of the Rings to specialist games? How does it "deserve" that?


The 4 lines mentioned are different, A different scale, a different rule set, an RPG as opposed to a wargame

LoTR is declining in popularity. Why not give some of the other games a re hash and get some long time vets back into stores and get some new kids interestd in some different style of games

Mahwell Skel
08-05-2007, 23:55
I'd argue that they're actually very poor at exploiting this. Where are the Dawn of War or Mark of Chaos tie-ins? Dawn of War has sold very well yet they've not released a "Dawn of War" branded starter box-a repack of Macragge with a DoW cover and a couple of scenarios and you've the chance of upping sales. Same for Mark of Chaos.

Great post. Total failure to expoit a new market. So sad. DoW especially such a good game why oh why is this not exploited to death?

Also where are the pirate style figures and the sea based skirmish game? Every child this summer will be watching pirates of the carribean. Where are the pirate zombies famous for terrorrising the islands off the Lustrian coast (you can have that one for free GW)? Man O War rerelease too late by 3 years...

Bombot
09-05-2007, 00:03
Also where are the pirate style figures and the sea based skirmish game? Every child this summer will be watching pirates of the carribean. Where are the pirate zombies famous for terrorrising the islands off the Lustrian coast (you can have that one for free GW)? Man O War rerelease too late by 3 years...

Well they did a limited edition Pirate Zombies kit.

I believe you can still buy the necessary sprues, so why it was only limited, only GW know.

nap1st
09-05-2007, 00:13
Great post. Total failure to expoit a new market. So sad. DoW especially such a good game why oh why is this not exploited to death?

Also where are the pirate style figures and the sea based skirmish game? Every child this summer will be watching pirates of the carribean. Where are the pirate zombies famous for terrorrising the islands off the Lustrian coast (you can have that one for free GW)? Man O War rerelease too late by 3 years...

I think you just hit a very large nail on the head for what is wrong about Games Workshop. Failing to exploit popular culture like it used to, I mean look at rogue trader, in the 2nd version of the vehicle rules they admitted they were inspired by star wars toys for use as vehicles. Now look at the clunking Behemoth, they did some rules for zombie pirates and then did nothing else with them. They could have done a pirate dog of war list, they could have re-released Long Drong's Pirate slayers, or other model ideas for pirates.

Nyarlathotep
09-05-2007, 00:58
I think you just hit a very large nail on the head for what is wrong about Games Workshop. Failing to exploit popular culture like it used to, I mean look at rogue trader, in the 2nd version of the vehicle rules they admitted they were inspired by star wars toys for use as vehicles. Now look at the clunking Behemoth, they did some rules for zombie pirates and then did nothing else with them. They could have done a pirate dog of war list, they could have re-released Long Drong's Pirate slayers, or other model ideas for pirates.

What you have to remember is intellectual property, trademarks and copyrights are a lot stricter and comprehensive now than they were in the 80's and 90's. Who knows what the legal complications are, especially with a company like Disney. If they feel you are making money from something that is even remotely influenced by them, they will sue you.

I expect that GW never released models for DoW or MoC because I imagine that the NAMES are TM of the respective game manufacturers. Obviously, they will be giving GW a large royalty for using there intellectual property, but I doubt that GW would want to give money back to them for using the names to sell models.

Templar Ben
09-05-2007, 02:54
The 4 lines mentioned are different, A different scale, a different rule set, an RPG as opposed to a wargame

LoTR is declining in popularity. Why not give some of the other games a re hash and get some long time vets back into stores and get some new kids interestd in some different style of games

Given that the rules are so different, scale is different and one is an RP, why would they want to have lines that will not have synergy with the existing lines? I just don't see the logic except as a spaghetti method of throwing it against the wall and see what sticks. They really don't have the cash to do that.

So you are saying that since LotR is not as popular they should go with the games that they know didn't sell?

Then again I will fully admit that I don't understand the minds of many GW players (at least the ones that post here).