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nooobie 69
06-05-2007, 14:28
Well now that the nemisis crown is coming up im thinking of starting a new army instead ofmy we. I thought i want one that can use alot of magic and have magic items that can help in the magic phase. Im kinda think more high elves because of them getting magic items cheaper but then tzeentch get extra power dice for each unit with the mark of tzeentch.
So can you please tell me which you think is best at magic and have the best items. Or if you think any other army is better can you say which and why thanks

Corai
06-05-2007, 14:47
Tzeentch. Aside from the fact that given the choice between tzeentch and anything else I'll lean towardfs the change guy. HE have a new book on the (not too distant) horizon so you'll find a lot of rules and models being replaced before the years out. Plus, not only is Tzeentch magic heavy, and chock full of rules and equipment to propogate that power, their mages can also do pretty well in a scrap. A HE mage army can still be taken apart in combat. people get a bit more of a surprise when they charge your spell caster and discover he ahs the stats of a chaos lord!

Thanks
Corai

ZomboCom
06-05-2007, 14:56
In terms of magical power, high elves probably edge ahead when maxed out.

Tzeentch may be able to have more power dice (just), but the lore is simply not particularly good compared to the myriad of options available to a high elf player.

Seer is the key.

nooobie 69
06-05-2007, 15:05
Yea thats the thing tzeentch might have more power dice but only have one lore of magic (i think) but high elves can use all the lores in the rule book and they have thier own thats good. Also in 1500 pts my friend who plays he got 11 power dice i cant remember how.

Vattendroppe
06-05-2007, 15:40
One thing's for sure, if you decide to go HE, wait until they've been redone this fall.

Bretonnian Lord
06-05-2007, 17:48
I've never played a tzeentch army but speaking from my experience against a friend's High Elves, I can say that the HE are capable of some pretty disgusting magic if they max out on it.

Stouty
06-05-2007, 18:16
Tzeentch max magic is something truly terrible to behold, there are just too many powerdice to do anything about and the lore has some pretty strong spells.

High elf max magic is horrible as well, book of hoeth and all those seers etc means you've got an unstoppable magic phase.

But other than that the 2 armies are so different I'm wondering why you're comparing. Tzeentch max magic will be a very small army but will have lots of heavy hitters (chariots and quite possibly a dragon) where as a high elf max magic army is still just a high elf army, only you can't take any combat heroes.

Decide on what you want from the army as a whole and your options should whittle down to the one you want fairly fast. Do you want a chaos army or do you want a high elf army? Try to forget the magic for a minute or two. They're both very feasible as a magic heavy army but they're so different you must have a preference.

sulla
06-05-2007, 21:26
So can you please tell me which you think is best at magic and have the best items. Or if you think any other army is better can you say which and why thanks

HE by a country mile. Seer skill plus 9 lores to choose from make their lowerr level casters much better. Higher level casters are about even but lvl2 with lore of Tz = underpowered spellcasting.

cinera
06-05-2007, 21:30
Tzeentch!
its his divine will that you play for chaos.

theunwantedbeing
06-05-2007, 21:32
Tzeentch does give you more powerdice than anyone else,quite a lot more infact.
But High elf magic is generally more versatile and with the seer honour you get to pick and choose the best spells for the job on every occasion,rather than with tzeentch just throwing every spell you have at whatever opponent you have.

Tutore
06-05-2007, 21:47
I would choose High Elves, but you already own Wood Elves. Isn't it boring to have two similar (but soooo different) armies?

Luthien
06-05-2007, 22:17
HIGH ELVES R TEH UBER!!!!1111!!!!one :D :D
seriously though they are rather good and with an update soon that means shiny new figs and new tactical oppertunities

Ninners
07-05-2007, 09:23
Tzeentch because they're chaos!

Come on, which is better, blue demons shooting fire or a pixie in armour?

Wadders
07-05-2007, 09:28
Max magic...?

I would use a Slann in a Lizard army..... that would wipe the floor with these two in the magic phase and have some heavy hitters....

if it has to be a choice between these two, I would prefer to play Tzeentch.

Goldenwolf
08-05-2007, 01:43
Max Magic can make for a crappy game.

However if you do want to go that way, then think about what else you want your army to do.

Undead can have a good magic phase, O&G and Skaven can too.

Tzeentch, High Elves, and Lizardmen can have the highest # of dice, but be warned that certain armies can deny your magic if they max out in magic defense. I have seen a Khorne army with 13 DD(Don't know if it was legal, but certainly kept my 9 Casting Dice in check with Gobbo's), and Dwarf armies with a huge amount of magic defense that stays around, whereas if you lose a caster or two you can lose 4-6 dice.

I admit I like the magic phase, but you must be able to compete in the other phases of the game if you choose to dominate one of them.

Lander
08-05-2007, 02:02
Wait for the new book for High Elves.

larabic
08-05-2007, 02:19
@lander: Wohoo i made some one sig!... sort of...

Go with HE the new stuff they are going to get is going to be awesome by all indications.

Alathir
08-05-2007, 02:23
Max magic...?

I would use a Slann in a Lizard army..... that would wipe the floor with these two in the magic phase and have some heavy hitters....




Yeah, unless an archmage casts pit of shades on his fat toad head (happiest day in my warhammer life...)


I've never found tzeentch magic to be as scary as people make it out to be... my bretonnian army really didnt suffer that much at all against it and i only had a single level 2 mage with the chalice of malfluer...

So I would reccemmend High Elves in this scenario... but I would definitley wait until the new list is out.. if you dont want to wait, then go with tzeentch.

Galladorn
08-05-2007, 02:25
it takes less skill to win with an army that generates insane power dice than to win with a toughness 3 army.
So High Elves is the way to go

popisdead
08-05-2007, 03:20
The tzeentch daemon list is pretty powerful and at 2000 pts can be uber gross, and it's this way in several different configurations.

High Elves are pretty weak and getting a redux in the fall so I'd generally stay away from buying an army, 6 months before better models come out for it.

Martyr
08-05-2007, 16:29
Yea thats the thing tzeentch might have more power dice but only have one lore of magic (i think) but high elves can use all the lores in the rule book and they have thier own thats good.

They have 4 Lores of Magic: Tzeentch which is gross, Fire, Shadow, and Death.

1 thing I think everyone is forgetting is that Tzeentch Sorcerers are not the puny regular sorcerers that are in the Chaos book. These are the Champions and Lords of Chaos, the close combat gods that Chaos is feared most for. Your magic fails? Stick them in the face with your halberd for a str 6 hit 5 times and STILL be able to take a hit at T5 not to mention having chaos armor and all the nice trinkets that chaos gives. Sure the cost of these things are a bit more in point cost but geez look at what you're getting!

-Martyr

Häxjägare
08-05-2007, 16:37
They have 4 Lores of Magic: Tzeentch which is gross, Fire, Shadow, and Death.

1 thing I think everyone is forgetting is that Tzeentch Sorcerers are not the puny regular sorcerers that are in the Chaos book. These are the Champions and Lords of Chaos, the close combat gods that Chaos is feared most for. Your magic fails? Stick them in the face with your halberd for a str 6 hit 5 times and STILL be able to take a hit at T5 not to mention having chaos armor and all the nice trinkets that chaos gives. Sure the cost of these things are a bit more in point cost but geez look at what you're getting!

-Martyr

If you mark a character they have to pick their spells from the gods lore. You could have your characters un-marked but with the new targeting rules that might be risky.

Martyr
08-05-2007, 17:09
Ah, you are right. Reading the army list again I see that you are correct. My apologies.

-Martyr

Häxjägare
08-05-2007, 17:44
Ah, you are right. Reading the army list again I see that you are correct. My apologies.

-Martyr

Not a problem at all:) Was one of the main reasons I switched from Nurgle to Tzeentch. I don't fancy Nurgles magic

Scibadi
08-05-2007, 20:42
The fact that HE mages have acess to 9 lores of magic and also the seer honour gives them a lot of cool spells to play around with and the ability to adapt to different situations. I would use the spells you have to hamper the enemy and reduce their CC effectiveness against your T3 infantry.

P.S @noobie69, Cooper is doing a Tzeentch army you really don't want to be doing the same army as him. ;)

eleveninches
08-05-2007, 21:13
book of hoeth! it lets you choose just one lv 4 wizard (be sure to get a banner of sorcery as well), and get most of your spells off (if sucessfully cast), and since there is no need for magic support, you can use the other charachter slots for fighty heroes to join your infantry units to give them the punch that they would otherwise be lacking.

lee
08-05-2007, 21:27
go tzeentch cuse chaos is cool

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 21:40
The book of hoeth isnt that great really.
You go from a 1/36 chance to a 5/36 chance of getting irresistable force.
Although its not quite that simple.....as most spells require a roll of 7+ to cast that are of any major use to you.
Which means a 2,2 and a 3,3 are of no use to you as they dont cause irresistable force,so in reality your only getting a 1/18 increase in getting irresistable force.
For 2 dice at least.

For 3 dice your irresistable force chances go from 8% to 37%
And you can include values of 2,2,N and 3,3,N As your remaining dice will very likely generate a number large enough to allow you get the irresistable force.

But this requires far more dice per spell,and each successive irresisbale force you get means you opponent has more dice to use to dispel any bound items you may have.

My that was a bit of a rant about how the book of hoeth isnt as good as it seems lol.

thorgrim
08-05-2007, 23:11
Tzeentch

Lord with the staff of change (re-roll casting dice) and a lot of tzeentch chariots. And you will never miscast.

nooobie 69
09-05-2007, 19:32
Ok so everyone is saying about tzeentch getting more spell casting dice and he getting better wargear but who do you think is better at dispeling enemy magic?

Häxjägare
09-05-2007, 20:15
Ok so everyone is saying about tzeentch getting more spell casting dice and he getting better wargear but who do you think is better at dispeling enemy magic?

High elfs. No question about it, Tzeentch regiments only adds power dices.

Caligula
09-05-2007, 20:42
If I had to pick, I'd say Tzeentch, if only because the High Elves are getting a new army book and model revamp relatively soon.

High Elves and Tzeentch armies both have the potential to be very dominating in the magic phase, so this is largely a non-issue. You'll be well magically either way you go.

For the other phases of the game, however, I think you'd be better off with a Tzeentch-themed Hordes or Beasts(or both) army.

If you want High Elves, I'd suggest waiting for their big release coming later on this year. For now, go with a Tzeentch army.

Scibadi
10-05-2007, 15:50
Only difference in dispelling is HE get +1 to their rolls.

Dark Haven
10-05-2007, 23:38
I voted for Tzeentch, but the others do a have point. Wait until the new HE come out and see if you like them. Thats way you won't waste money while you are unsure.