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scarletsquig
05-06-2007, 00:09
This thread: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87016 , about a 10-model chaos army got me thinking about the possibilities of utterly tiny (model-wise) armies.

So, I propose a competition - to come up with the smallest army possible within 2000 points - it may end up as chaos due to the chariot core choice, or some other army (ogre kingdoms maybe) could take the crown.

All variant/ white dwarf lists that have ever been published, along with all special characters are eligible to be included - it's all legal :)

Have at it!

I'll draw a little warhammer sketch as a reward for the winner - of anything in the warhammer world they want to see pencilled, preferably something humourous though ;)

theunwantedbeing
05-06-2007, 01:33
Chaos lord of tzeentch riding a chaos chariot of tzeentch
Fully equipt
3 x Exaulted champions of tzeentch riding chariots of tzeentch
All fully equipt
Dragon ogre shaggoth,great weapon.

2000pts exactly.
5 models.

Smallest possible 2000pts army(that keeps to near 2000pts)
Obviously you could make a 3 model army if you didnt use a load of points.

ehlijen
05-06-2007, 07:47
Do chariots used by characters still count as their relevant choices in the list? I thought they were just considered mounts from then on.

Here is mine:
White Dwarf, Thorgrim, tooled up thane bsb, oath stone, Ancestar Rune, Master rune of valaya
using the 7 knights scenario :p

Glorfindel
05-06-2007, 11:21
Do chariots used by characters still count as their relevant choices in the list? I thought they were just considered mounts from then on.

Here is mine:
White Dwarf, Thorgrim, tooled up thane bsb, oath stone, Ancestar Rune, Master rune of valaya
using the 7 knights scenario :p

Exactly what I thought

Frecus
05-06-2007, 16:22
Chaos lord of Tzeentch, dragon, skull of katam, golden eye, crimson armour, great weapon, shield...819
Exalted champion of Tzeentch, Tzeentch chariot, Power familiar, great weapon, shield...364
Exalted champion of Tzeentch, Tzeentch chariot, Battle standard, banner of the gods...460
Exalted champion of Tzeentch, Tzeentch chariot, Crown of everlasting conquest, great weapon...364

Total: 1999 Models: 4

Hah! 4!

Hmm... How effective would 3 chariots & a dragon be?

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
05-06-2007, 16:31
I'm sure someone could do something with malekith and 2 cauldron of blood's...

Mouse_NJ
05-06-2007, 16:46
Chaos lord of Tzeentch, dragon, skull of katam, golden eye, crimson armour, great weapon, shield...819
Exalted champion of Tzeentch, Tzeentch chariot, Power familiar, great weapon, shield...364
Exalted champion of Tzeentch, Tzeentch chariot, Battle standard, banner of the gods...460
Exalted champion of Tzeentch, Tzeentch chariot, Crown of everlasting conquest, great weapon...364

Total: 1999 Models: 4

Hah! 4!

Hmm... How effective would 3 chariots & a dragon be?

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

Scary enough in 2K your talking about having to deal with a terror causing nightmare on a dragon with a breath weapon and 3 chariots. I'm not worried about the chariots as any sensible army can probably pop 1-2 before they hit combat, however if you play smart you could really mess people up pretty

theunwantedbeing
05-06-2007, 16:50
Frecus yours is illegal as you've used up 5 character slots out of the available 4.

Malekith and 2 couldrens of blood?
The Couldren is a 0-1 choice so you cant have 2 of them.

Franco
05-06-2007, 16:51
Wont all of these lists be illegal??? You need a general and about 3 core units. Surely 3 chariots aren't legal are they???
I am probably wrong but it doesn't seem right. But i dont like to be a party pooper, and i would give a list but i only have WE and O&G lists, not the best for this!!!

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
05-06-2007, 16:52
Frecus yours is illegal as you've used up 5 character slots out of the available 4.

Malekith and 2 couldrens of blood?
The Couldren is a 0-1 choice so you cant have 2 of them.

******** :mad:

Franco, good point. what about the core?

Aflo
05-06-2007, 16:53
Frecus yours is illegal as you've used up 5 character slots out of the available 4.



No he hasn't...

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
05-06-2007, 16:55
No he hasn't...

I'm guessing he means that the Lord takes up a hero slot too?

theunwantedbeing
05-06-2007, 16:58
Tzeentch lord (lord) 1
Chaos dragon (hero) 2
Exaulted champion (hero) 3
Exaulted champion (hero) 4
Exaulted champion (hero) 5

By my count thats 5 slots.
As for the chariot thing,mortal chariots count as a core choice in an army with a mortal general.
Simialrly you can have beasts chariots as core in a beasts army.

He also isnt allowed the banner of the gods on his tzeentch battle standard bearer either,seeing as its an undivided only item.

TheWarSmith
05-06-2007, 17:34
Can special characters be tossed in?

theunwantedbeing
05-06-2007, 18:14
I dont see how using a special character will allow you to make an army smaller than 5 models......

TheWarSmith
05-06-2007, 18:49
Smallest army is 5.

1 lord of some type
3 chariots
1 big monster

Franco
05-06-2007, 20:41
Tzeentch lord (lord) 1
Chaos dragon (hero) 2
Exaulted champion (hero) 3
Exaulted champion (hero) 4
Exaulted champion (hero) 5

By my count thats 5 slots.
As for the chariot thing,mortal chariots count as a core choice in an army with a mortal general.
Simialrly you can have beasts chariots as core in a beasts army.

He also isnt allowed the banner of the gods on his tzeentch battle standard bearer either,seeing as its an undivided only item.

I was thinking that.
I dont think you will find a smaller army than 5. Unless you have 3 core and one character. But those 4 things would cost alot.

Glorfindel
05-06-2007, 20:54
To my understanding chariots used for characters don't count towards unit slots just like ridden monsters

scarletsquig
05-06-2007, 21:14
Can special characters be tossed in?

all special characters are eligible to be included
:)

I still have no idea if those character chariots count towards core choices or not.

anyway, keep thinking outside the box with this one - literally anything can be used, even WD variant lists, that are still usable for 6th and 7th edition.

Atrahasis
05-06-2007, 21:21
To my understanding chariots used for characters don't count towards unit slots just like ridden monsters

Your understanding is incorrect. Mortal/Beast chariots count towards their respective slots.

ekxw
05-06-2007, 21:28
uhmm easy 3 chaos knights units 1 chaos dragon and tzeench lords, i have played against this army, it isnt fair but some people use it

TheWarSmith
05-06-2007, 22:10
if you mean 3 UNITS of chaos knights, then that's going to be 12 models minimum.

I'm pretty sure it can't be done with less than 5.

you need 1 character(chaos lord on dragon/archaon)3 core, and some big monster(giant/shaggoth/exalted champion, etc.), and chaos chariots(of any variety) are the most expensive single model in core section

Vattendroppe
06-06-2007, 09:23
I've calculated a bit on the army and it doesn't seem possible to get up to 2000 pts with 5 models.

With Khorne is the maximum I seem to get 1410 - Bloodthirster, three chariots and max tooled exalted champion.
With Nurgle 1415 - Max tooled up Demon Prince (It's actually 10 pts over the great unclean one), three chariots and max tooled exalted champion.

Now, I'm not that great with chaos, but it seems that the shaggoth cannot be included in an army led by a demonic character. So they're not in this calc, I'm pretty sure they don't make up for their points provided the massive costs of the demonic lords.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
06-06-2007, 16:29
can we see what's the smallest army except that chaos style list because that's boring...

TheWarSmith
06-06-2007, 16:38
Shaggoths can be included in ANY armies led by any kind of general, just not if the army is specifically "Daemonic Legion".

IF characters that ride chariots count as both choices, then i think you could do it with 4 models(if you count the character on chariot as 1 model).

Tzeentch lord on dragon(about 850)
Exalted in chariot(340)
Exalted in chariot(340)
Exalted in chariot(340)


Hmmm, that actually still comes up a bit short.

Dragon of the Pants
06-06-2007, 16:47
And youve got too many characters again.

Sherlocko
06-06-2007, 16:55
@TheWarSmith: Not Daemonic Legion, Deamonic general. Even if it is just a mortal dude with the item wich makes him deamonic. :)

belgarath97
06-06-2007, 17:11
It says in the book that the chariot a character is in are additional to the number of chariots allowed (ie special or rare), doesn't it?

theunwantedbeing
06-06-2007, 17:18
No you made that up.

"he can ride a chariot chosen as normal from the mortals section,displacing one of the crew"

ie.
You can put him in a chariot if you bought one from the mortals section of the rulebook.

Not

He may be mounted in a chariot at Xpts

TheWarSmith
06-06-2007, 17:33
@TheWarSmith: Not Daemonic Legion, Deamonic general. Even if it is just a mortal dude with the item wich makes him deamonic. :)

Nothing prohibits the selection of rare choices from either book based on the general's mortality(daemon/beast/mortal)

So you could do:

Dragon lord
2 exalted in chariots
3rd chariot
hellcannon

the1stpip
06-06-2007, 19:22
Ok then, this is for Orcs and Goblins, not the easiest army to build on the cheap.

Azhag the Slaughterer

Black Orc Big Boss; Heavy Armour; Shield; Shaga's Screamin' Sword

Black Orc Big Boss; Heavy Armour; Shield; Basha's Bloodaxe

Black Orc Big Boss; Heavy Armour; Battle Standard; Morks Spirit Totem

5 Goblin Wolf Riders; Spear; Short Bow; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Boss

5 Goblin Wolf Riders; Spear; Short Bow; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Boss

7 Goblin Wolf Riders; Spear; Short Bow; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Boss

Giant

Giant

Boar Chariot

Boar Chariot

Boar Chariot

Boar Chariot

Total Army Cost: 1987
Models in Army: 27

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
06-06-2007, 19:26
couldn't you have used boar boyz instead of wolf riders, or are they special. I forget?

Franco
06-06-2007, 19:33
Ok then, this is for Orcs and Goblins, not the easiest army to build on the cheap.

Azhag the Slaughterer

Black Orc Big Boss; Heavy Armour; Shield; Shaga's Screamin' Sword

Black Orc Big Boss; Heavy Armour; Shield; Basha's Bloodaxe

Black Orc Big Boss; Heavy Armour; Battle Standard; Morks Spirit Totem

5 Goblin Wolf Riders; Spear; Short Bow; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Boss

5 Goblin Wolf Riders; Spear; Short Bow; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Boss

7 Goblin Wolf Riders; Spear; Short Bow; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Boss

Giant

Giant

Boar Chariot

Boar Chariot

Boar Chariot

Boar Chariot

Total Army Cost: 1987
Models in Army: 27

Probably the smallest list O&G can have!!!

skyly
06-06-2007, 19:39
Chaos lord - 844
Mot, Great weapen, shield, Staff of change, golden eye, Dragon

Exhalted of change - 433
Mot, great weapen, , Skull of katam, Charriot with mot

Aspring bsb - 365
Mot, Charriot with mot, Banner of wrath

Charriot - 120

Dragon ogre shaggoth - 306
great weapen and light armor

2001 point, with not even everything maxed

1 lord, 3 hero, 3 core,1 special, 1 rare

Cookie?

TheWarSmith
06-06-2007, 20:41
But that's still 5 models. We've covered that doing it with 5 models is possible, but is 4 possible?

kyussinchains
06-06-2007, 20:49
Nothing prohibits the selection of rare choices from either book based on the general's mortality(daemon/beast/mortal)


check the shaggoth's army list entry in the beasts book, they cannot be included in any army led by a daemonic general (it's the belief that to do so risks losing what remains of their souls)

well, it's to stop you including a daemon prince and a shaggoth in 2000 point armies, but that's how they justify it (straight from Gav too!)

blurred
06-06-2007, 20:53
What counts as a 2000 point army? If character-ridden chariots count as core choices then three exalted champs in chariots would be the smallest as one does not have to use all points available.

theunwantedbeing
06-06-2007, 20:54
The only way to get less than 5 models in a 2k army is to not use all the available points.

eg.
Aspiring champion in a chariot
chariot
chariot

3 models,legal as a 2k army,only 430pts though.

Tiny DE army
Malekith
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
5 Cold one chariots(xbows,spears)
1945pts 21 models

Sherlocko
06-06-2007, 21:07
Nothing prohibits the selection of rare choices from either book based on the general's mortality(daemon/beast/mortal)



No, not when it comes to shaggoth. Read its special rule, it has a rule wich make it unable to be lead by an deamonic general. Something about it being scared of losing its soul or something...


EDIT: Saw that kyussinchains already had answered...

TheWarSmith
06-06-2007, 21:15
Well I'll be damned.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
06-06-2007, 21:27
The only way to get less than 5 models in a 2k army is to not use all the available points.

eg.
Aspiring champion in a chariot
chariot
chariot

3 models,legal as a 2k army,only 430pts though.

Tiny DE army
Malekith
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
5 Cold one chariots(xbows,spears)
1945pts 21 models

5 COC in a 2k army? that's 5 special

Sherlocko
06-06-2007, 21:30
1 Night Goblin Big Boss 30 points
3x10 Orc Boys 50x3
180 points

Pointwise that is a pretty small army.:D [dice0]

Atrahasis
06-06-2007, 22:40
5 COC in a 2k army? that's 5 specialNuh-uh. COC's are 2-for-1 special.

scarletsquig
06-06-2007, 23:00
The only way to get less than 5 models in a 2k army is to not use all the available points.

eg.
Aspiring champion in a chariot
chariot
chariot

3 models,legal as a 2k army,only 430pts though.

Win :D

This was a trick question, and I was wondering if anyone would apply a bit of lateral thought to it.

Let me know what particular denizen or scene from the warhammer world you'd like to see sketched and rendered and I'll get right to it.


Some interesting discussion going on here, anyway - I'll agree that the chaos army example is pretty boring, so it'd be good to see the alternative versions from other armies.

Also, the search for the "lowest model" 2k army may also result in the "cheapest to buy" 2k army. Something insane like being able to convert an entire army out of a single regiment box could be very worthwhile!

the1stpip
07-06-2007, 11:48
It was stated earlier in the thread, that you had to use as many of the points as possible.

Aelyn
07-06-2007, 12:43
Not win actually.

You asked for the smallest possible army within 2000 points, not the smallest army possible in a 2000 point game. So technically I could write a list legal in 1K points and it's still "within" 2000 points :P

Aspiring Champion on Chariot
Chariot.

Two models, fulfills the sub-2K slot requirements.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
07-06-2007, 16:15
Nuh-uh. COC's are 2-for-1 special.

sure about that mate, i dont see it anywhere?
under RBT it says it with a * in faint writing, not there for chariot. i know some armies do that but I dont think all of them do.

theunwantedbeing
07-06-2007, 16:18
Its part of the dark elf errata darklord of naggaroth.
DE cold one chariots became 2 for 1 beacuse they werent getting taken because they suffered from stupidity far too often and there wasnt really any justification for giving them a higher leadership.

So they were made more available so you could field more of them so stupidity was less likely to affect them all adversely at the same time.

So make them more usable.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
07-06-2007, 16:21
arhh right. I guess i didn't remember that because I dont use 2 chariots. but at least I know now in case I want to

thanks a bunch :)

scarletsquig
07-06-2007, 16:27
Not win actually.

You asked for the smallest possible army within 2000 points, not the smallest army possible in a 2000 point game. So technically I could write a list legal in 1K points and it's still "within" 2000 points :P

Now you're just rules-lawyering and making up stuff that the writer never intended based on the exact (somewhat vague) phrasing of the sentence :P

Nonetheless... as the designer of that sentence, it is my duty to clarify it with a FAQ before I incur the wrath of my fanbase.

Official squig army comp FAQ's 2007:

Q: Is a 1000-point army eligible for this contest?

A: No. The contest was clearly intended to be a 2000-point army. The warhammer rulebook states that not all of the points have to be used in a 2000-point army, only that armies cannot go over the limit.


I hope that solves your problem ;)

TheWarSmith
07-06-2007, 18:28
No, this is using the LEAST # of models to HIT at or right around 2,000.

Sure you could field 5 and hit 1,000, but then you've handicapped yourself in WAY more ways than just your model count.

Vattendroppe
07-06-2007, 21:53
I don't think it has been calculated before, but I got the number of models down to 6, then leaving 29 pts unused (1971 pts). Those points could be used up by tooling the characters with additional (unnecessary) weapons.

Lord of tzeench on dragon, accompanied by two champions of chaos in chariots, plus 3 extra chariots (all with mark of tzeench).

TheWarSmith
07-06-2007, 22:32
I thought we had it at 5? 4 just isn't possible though.

825(tzeentch lord on dragon w/ 100 points of magic items and some mundane equipment)

365(aspiring champion, battle standard mark of tzeentch, chariot of tzeentch, 50 points of magic items)

360(exalted champion, tzeentch, tzeentch chariot, magic items)

140(tzeentch chariot)

310(shaggoth with great weapon, light armour, and additional hand weapon)

2000 points ON THE DOT!!!

theunwantedbeing
07-06-2007, 22:36
Tzeentch lord,100pts of items,great weapon,sheild
rides a chariot of tzeentch
599pts

Exaulted champion of tzeentch
50pts of items,great weapon,sheild
rides a chariot of tzeentch
366pts

Exaulted champion of tzeentch
50pts of items,great weapon,sheild
rides a chariot of tzeentch
366pts

Exaulted champion of tzeentch
50pts of items,great weapon,sheild
rides a chariot of tzeentch
366pts

Shaggoth
great weapon
303pts

2000points exactly.
1 lord,3 hero's
4 core,1 rare,1 special

Legal 5 model 2000point army.

It cant be done with 4 models,not while keeping to near 2000pts at least anyway.

819pts is the maximum a chaos lord of tzeentch on dragon can cost.
with a sheild and a great weapon/halbeard/extra hand weapon/flail(you only get one)

The exaulted on chariot is 385pts in total.

TheWarSmith
07-06-2007, 22:40
I started off building that list too, but i'm never sure if the "dragon takes a hero/rare" rule makes it so that's not legal or not, so i just reworked it.

rob_bot
08-06-2007, 15:27
Tiny DE army
Malekith
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
5 Cold one chariots(xbows,spears)
1945pts 21 models

Malekith
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
5 dark riders(full command,xbows)
3 Cold one chariots(xbows,spears)
Royal Hydra
1962pts 20 models

pwned...:D

GodHead
08-06-2007, 22:21
War Mammoth's would allow the 4 model army.

TheWarSmith
09-06-2007, 00:06
War Mammoth's would allow the 4 model army.

It'd come nowhere close, as the war mammoth has to field 20 marauders with it.

theunwantedbeing
09-06-2007, 01:02
Hydra's have 2 beastmaster apprentices that come with them.
So your 20 model army is actually 22.
*looks smug*

sandpeople
09-06-2007, 14:48
Isnīt there a lizardmen-list that could compete?

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-06-2007, 15:04
I started off building that list too, but i'm never sure if the "dragon takes a hero/rare" rule makes it so that's not legal or not, so i just reworked it.

It makes it illegal. If you have a lord on a Dragon in a Chaos list you can only have 2 heroes as well, not 3.
So theunwantedbeing produced an illegal 5 model 2k chaos army. I'm sure it can be done in less than 5 models if we can make illegal armies :p

theunwantedbeing
09-06-2007, 15:09
Lizardmen list?
Kroak
Skink cheif on stegadon
10 spear armed saurus warriors
-full command
10 temple guard with sheilds
-full command,sun standard of chotec
1 jungle swarm

2000pts
23 models,thats as small as I can get it,mainly beacuse you need 21 models for the minimal sized core for a 2k lizardmen army.

Gorbad I never produced an illegal list at all,I never included a chaos dragon.
That was somebody else!!!

TheWarSmith
09-06-2007, 16:48
That was my fault being, i mistakenly commented on your dragon lord+3 heroes list and didn't see it was a chariot.