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feintstar
17-06-2007, 06:03
I loved Epic 40K when it first was re-released with the then new warlord Titan model and all that came with that, but sadly, I had not one single friend that was also interested. I have recenly come across one friend who has an Epic army, and am curious about the idea of collecting (via mail order obviously)

I have 3 armies I'm curious about; Eldar, Imperial Guard (+/- Grey Knights) and Tau

Would someone rank them in terms of painting time and cost to buy/order?

Also, I like the idea of having lots of tactical options, particularly with regard to confusing my opponent. I figure that guard having so many men, might be more capable of confusing the enemy, and while Eldar can do the best manuvering, they don't have as much staying power as tau, should the choose to stick around - also I think that in 40K at least, Eldar are so manuverable and specialised that they are almost too easy to use... Are they the same in Epic?


Also, I was wondering if there were such things as rules for weather factors in Epic? Are there Blizzards/Sandstorms that render flyers less usable and hamper movement/damage units? Is there a difference between day and night, with models untargetable due to them being hidden and the like?


Lastly, I posted a topic in the 40K general discussion boards about introducing a fog or war mechanic into 40K. Some of the negative feedback has suggested that 40K is too small scale for a fog of war to have any real benefit in game terms. I don't know the epic rules well enough to compare, but I wonder if they might accomodate such a ruleset better?

My idea for fog of War on the tabletop = infantry models outside los are not deployed on the table, but rather are marked down on a schematic map and are deployed onto the table when they are spotted by their opponents' troops(?ZoC?) or when they shoot/assault, with an adjudicator ensuring no funny business. Troops in LOS with cover can make a save to avoid being spotted, and once a unit is deployed they stay deployed - that way scout detatchments get used to find enemy hidden formations, while auxillaries attempt to destroy recon units in order to keep their battleplan hidden - I guess flyers would not be able to spot hidden units in cover, but units out in the open out of LOS would be exposed - and air superiority fighters become a more important element with this regard... my discussion of Fog of Warhammer is here http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89308

Hena
17-06-2007, 11:23
[QUOTE]Would someone rank them in terms of painting time and cost to buy/order?
Painting wise. IG would be more work than Eldar or Tau. Mainly as IG has infantry companies and the sized of the formation are generally larger and less expensive. But this can be changed other way around with proper selection of units. However in general IG and they Eldar/Tau.

Cost wise. Tau infantry cost arm and a leg. So they would probably be the most expensive to have. IG and Eldar ... well. IG probably needs to a be a bit larger so it might cost more. But I don't really know :). But in general the E:A armies are a bit cheaper than 40k armies.


Also, I like the idea of having lots of tactical options, particularly with regard to confusing my opponent. I figure that guard having so many men, might be more capable of confusing the enemy, and while Eldar can do the best manuvering, they don't have as much staying power as tau, should the choose to stick around - also I think that in 40K at least, Eldar are so manuverable and specialised that they are almost too easy to use... Are they the same in Epic?
I think that E:A does much better job at making the army look more to what it should according to background. Of course this is partially a preference thing so others might disagree with me.

For maneuvering. Both armies are full of fast skimmers. So in terms of speed they are about equal. But the 'Hit and Run' special rule makes the Eldar better. Eldars have also units that are very good in assaults. Tau do not.

Tau are more combined arms. Markerlight + guided missiles are very much the thing there. Tau are not good at assaults, but very effective in longer range fire. They cannot hold lines though.

IG have good long range fire. Many formations are also large and capable of withstanding repeated fire. Much better at that than Eldar (with spirit stones rule removed) or Tau. In a direct slugfest, IG should always come on top.

Ease of use? IG and Orks are simplest. Eldar and Marines require a lot more to be of use. Tau might be a bit easier, but I haven't played with Eldar and only a little Tau so can't really say. 40k simplicity != E:A simplicity.


Also, I was wondering if there were such things as rules for weather factors in Epic? Are there Blizzards/Sandstorms that render flyers less usable and hamper movement/damage units? Is there a difference between day and night, with models untargetable due to them being hidden and the like?
There is no weather rules in E:A. However making own scenarios is useful and those can then add what ever they want in terms of special rules.


Lastly, I posted a topic in the 40K general discussion boards about introducing a fog or war mechanic into 40K. Some of the negative feedback has suggested that 40K is too small scale for a fog of war to have any real benefit in game terms. I don't know the epic rules well enough to compare, but I wonder if they might accomodate such a ruleset better?
Well. I'd suggest trying E:A first to see how the rules work. And reading them if you haven't done so already (as I assume from the text above). And seeing the game yourself.

Usually it is assumed that both sides know the enemy movements from various different locations. Such as satellites, spy planes, forward observers, automated tracking systems and what ever the different armies use for that sort of thing. Indirect fire for example works this this basic assumption.

But again in a scenarios all can be done. And if some rules work out well, they can always be suggested to the people working on the rules revisions. But I gather that a wide ranging new rules would need a lot of thinking and pondering before they would be accepted. Mainly as it might affect on so many different parts. I haven't read that thread that you link to yet so I don't know what you have suggested.

Moscovian
17-06-2007, 15:55
I would agree with Hena on most points.

Cost: IG strikes me as a force that is more expensive to collect at smaller scales (3000 points or so). But if you want to collect a larger force (for better variety or larger games) I think the IG cost goes down whereas Eldar will go up. The reason why is that the core formations for the IG are expensive kits ($40) where the core formations for the Eldar are infantry boxes ($20 for the boxes).

Painting: I would disagree with Hena on the painting. IG is easier to paint and cheaper. The volume of paint per pot you use won't come close to the variety you need for the Eldar, let alone the time. IG models dry brush easier - Eldar require a lot of time.

Playability: IG are the most flexible army to build due to the variety of pieces available to them and ar a forgiving army when in play. Eldar used to be pretty forgiving, but the new rules make them more difficult... which is a good thing.

Tau are very expensive to collect. While they are beautiful models, I would not recommend buying them as your first army. In the event that you find Epic is not your thing (or your one opponent loses interest) then you are stuck auctioning them off on ebay or staring at expensive resin. They are also difficult to paint (drybrushing resin always results in little arms and heads flying off - UGH!). Also, the rules are still in flux and IMO overpowered. It is getting closer to being balanced, however - so we'll see how the next version looks.

Epic is a far superior game to 40K in almost every respect (save for the availability of players, of course). You will love it. Weather, fog-of-war, etc, are all options for scenario games. Tournaments don't allow for it, but you wouldn't expect that, would you? :)

In terms of purchase, if you have the money to buy new, I would. The newer versions of the models are beautiful and -if you buy on ebay- you sometimes find yourself getting older versions or recasts. But you can always ask for help if you see an auction that you like.

Hornywingythingy
17-06-2007, 20:28
Im in a simmilar situation, just inherrited a load of eldar from a mate dropping out of the hobby (which my missus promptly nabbed, cooing, oooh preety eldar) and some squats and guard i am busy making up to a decent force, the main thing i was happy about was the 3 baneblades in the lot, which gives me some super heavy tanks.

oh and i also inherrited quite a bit of old CSM stuff, but that requires time to get up and running.

have only played a couple of trial games with my missus, and i like what i see, there is more depth than 40k, but its so difficult to find people to play against.

do you lot find it easy to get games of epic?

Hena
19-06-2007, 05:48
I have some amount of friends who play epic. Also I hold tournaments which tend to get 6 - 16 people to play. So it's not as easy to as the main GW games, but in general I can play enough games to fill what time I have for gaming in general.

Easiest thing is to get some of your 40k players to try it out. This requires of course enough minis for two smaller armies or a lot of proxying. But since you seem to have enough minis, then just start converting the main GW game players.

Bombot
19-06-2007, 08:25
I basically have a friend who I play against semi-regularly in London. I'd have more opponents if I got off my backside and went down the local gaming club but I'm still trying to get more minis painted.

rukai
22-06-2007, 12:28
Im in a simmilar situation, just inherrited a load of eldar from a mate dropping out of the hobby (which my missus promptly nabbed, cooing, oooh preety eldar) and some squats and guard i am busy making up to a decent force, the main thing i was happy about was the 3 baneblades in the lot, which gives me some super heavy tanks.

oh and i also inherrited quite a bit of old CSM stuff, but that requires time to get up and running.

have only played a couple of trial games with my missus, and i like what i see, there is more depth than 40k, but its so difficult to find people to play against.

do you lot find it easy to get games of epic?

i'm also from Wales and restarting Epic soon, so what part of Deepest Darkest Wales are you from??

can anyone tell me what Epic is like these days when i played it was all Knight households, Super Heavies and Titans...what changed what ahsnt kind of thing?

regards
Rukai